Cyberpunk Delay Affect Shadowlands?

[Onikaroshi]

I think people overestimate the amount of overlap between the two. Out of 25 odd people in my guild like 2 are more excited for cp2077 then sl. Anecdotal, but this entire thread is

[Eurhetemec]

https://twitter.com/pathofexile/stat...934433792?s=21

uh oh what do I read, a very successful game company changing the release of their content because of CP2077?

So weird!

What no-one has mentioned here yet is that this is because of two things applicable only to Path of Exile, not WoW. Streaming, and the initial race in a league.

WoW doesn't have any major streamers (or really even any significant minor ones, AFAIK), who do much streaming of other games which aren't WoW. And the start of a new expansion is not the most super-exciting period for streaming in some ways, as there's no raiding or M+ or much in the way of PvP.

Path of Exile, on the other hand, absolutely does. Several major PoE streamers do play/stream other games, and I'm willing to bet at least a few of them will be doing so with CP2077 (man I keep wanting to type it's TT RPG name, I played CP2020 a ton back in the '90s). On top of that, the beginning of the league is typically the most exciting part, as people race through it, and explore the new content - none of which will have been publicly seen before (indeed it's normally new to the streamers), rather than having betas streamed for months now.

Also frankly delaying it all the way into January from early December and saying "CP2077!" does sound a bit sketchy.

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Sounds to me like a variation of "WoW is dead / dying" mantra that we get since 2008

2008? I think I first heard it in 2006 in Vanilla - Naxxramas being really annoying to key a lot of characters for (often involving a big grind or a crazy amount of money), together with the massive amount of effort to get the ingredients for the necessary pots to survive it, together with it being fucking hard compared to previous content (even if relatively easy by modern standards), together with no new content for a while meant that loads of people just stopped playing/subscribing (Blizzard themselves say less than 5% of players even saw the inside of Naxx, as compared to like 60% seeing Molten Core and 40% BWL, back in Vanilla), and that provoked the first outburst of WoW "doomsaying" that I remember. DAoC even temporarily revived for a few months. Also worth noting that a lot of people were NOT hyped for TBC, because there was a view among some that Draenor would be boring/dumb.

TBC had a similar but less severe deal in 2008 too yeah, and in Wrath, WoW doomsaying became fashionable because people claimed that after Arthas was dead, WoW's story had nowhere to go that anyone would care about (I was one of these people I must now admit!), though it was a little different to previous doomsaying in that people were saying Wrath would be huge but WoW would decline rapidly after that. It didn't hurt that no-one had seen an MMORPG say "big" for more than 4-5 years, and WoW was coming up on that at that time.

Since then it's become an established annual tradition to claim WoW is dead. We should probably have some sort of in-game festival where WoW ritually dies and is reborn or something. Maybe that's what the pre-patch is.

[Eurhetemec]

Oh...during Naxx our guild was in full raiding swing...but in BWL and AQ. For all we cared, Vanilla could have gone on another year. Nobody thought about an x-pac and then in TBC we raided the moment raids released. Pretty seriously...all the way until Cata. Had so much fun that the doomsaying really baffled me.

Then again, I was on incgamers forums since Diablo 2 times and it was a nice and civil forum. When I came to MMO c in 2008, it already was a cesspool (and worse than today) of spitting on anything WoW did....Even back then we had the regular "AoC, Aion and Warhammer will kill WoW" threads - but so vicious that people got outright banned left and right and discussion of other MMOs were locked down.

Yeah this place is extremely calm now compared to the spitting ragefests I used to see even back in 2010.

Aion, gosh, hadn't thought about that game in years. People were very sure it would kill WoW, but when I played it, I was mystified as to why anyone would think that. It was so... half-hearted.

Some of the "WoW-killers" over the years, you could see why people playing the beta might believe that, at least on some level, because they were so passionately designed, and offered so much, and often had striking visual design, cool innovations, and so on, and maybe reminded you of WoW when it was new (pretty much all of them released "unfinished" though). Logically it still didn't make a whole lot of sense but whatever, at least they had this vibe where they had a lot of energy and ambition.

But Aion, LotR Online and so on, it was just mystifying as to why anyone would think that. Though perhaps the most ridiculous one was Dungeons and Dragons Online. I was D&D DM since I was a kid, and even I didn't believe that was going to be big - but a lot of people did. Playing it, it was like "This seems more like a game designed before WoW ever existed, than a competitor to WoW". Even in the EQ/DAoC era DDO would have been a weak contender.

I could definitely see avoiding Naxx and having a good time, but I saw a lot of people leave then.

[Yunzi]

Yeah this place is extremely calm now compared to the spitting ragefests I used to see even back in 2010.

Aion, gosh, hadn't thought about that game in years. People were very sure it would kill WoW, but when I played it, I was mystified as to why anyone would think that. It was so... half-hearted.

Some of the "WoW-killers" over the years, you could see why people playing the beta might believe that, at least on some level, because they were so passionately designed, and offered so much, and often had striking visual design, cool innovations, and so on, and maybe reminded you of WoW when it was new (pretty much all of them released "unfinished" though). Logically it still didn't make a whole lot of sense but whatever, at least they had this vibe where they had a lot of energy and ambition.

But Aion, LotR Online and so on, it was just mystifying as to why anyone would think that. Though perhaps the most ridiculous one was Dungeons and Dragons Online. I was D&D DM since I was a kid, and even I didn't believe that was going to be big - but a lot of people did. Playing it, it was like "This seems more like a game designed before WoW ever existed, than a competitor to WoW". Even in the EQ/DAoC era DDO would have been a weak contender.

I could definitely see avoiding Naxx and having a good time, but I saw a lot of people leave then.

Monopolies are bad for everyone besides the capitalists who profit from them. Nobody except Activision-Blizzard executives and some shareholders desire for WoW to monopolize the MMO market. "WoW-killer" is a term that moved more and more from expectation to hope over the years, as the dominance of WoW became more and more apparent.

The great advantage of WoW over it's competitors is precisely it's age, and what nearly two decades of development have added to its content. It's the difference between a giant theme park where new rides have been built every year until the park has become gigantic filled with "something for everyone" and a new park with "good ideas" but necessarily without the variety that draws in a large population.

The term "WoW-killer" was generated by online media - the term "clickbait" would have been applied to it if it had existed at the time. It's a dramatic term designed to catch the eye, draw attention, and get clicks rather than be entirely accurate. Very few people want WoW to actually be shut down due to loss of it's playerbase to other games. What most people actually want is a variety of options in the MMO market, innovation and new ideas being marketable rather than shut down under the oppressive domination of WoW.

[Eurhetemec]

Monopolies are bad for everyone besides the capitalists who profit from them. Nobody except Activision-Blizzard executives and some shareholders desire for WoW to monopolize the MMO market. "WoW-killer" is a term that moved more and more from expectation to hope over the years, as the dominance of WoW became more and more apparent.

I don't disagree

The great advantage of WoW over it's competitors is precisely it's age, and what nearly two decades of development have added to its content. It's the difference between a giant theme park where new rides have been built every year until the park has become gigantic filled with "something for everyone" and a new park with "good ideas" but necessarily without the variety that draws in a large population.

Age is part of it, now, but inertia, accessibility, fun and speed of continuing development were a big part of what kept it alive through the 2007-2014 storm of "WoW killers".

Accessibility is usually something that declines with the age of a game, but WoW consistently used catch-up mechanics (even in Vanilla), borrowed power, and other changes to stay accessible. So other games could be as accessible as WoW, but not really more accessible.

Fun is what WoW has always been good at doing in a very simple way. Other games have often managed to come in as less fun than WoW because they feel the need to add complexity or work that makes the game more "interactive", but less actually-fun. Age of Conan and WildStar come to mind. AoC made combat into fiddly num-pad molesting, and whilst it made you feel briefly clever, it wasn't much fun when you had to fight hundreds or thousands of enemies that way. WildStar took out autoattacks and required a ton more movement in combat, which could have been cool, but again, not if you make people fight just as many enemies as WoW and make them take as long or longer to kill (which WildStar did).

Continuing development was the other issue. WoW was able to iterate on its systems. Most other MMOs had previously just put forth their basic design, and then gradually added complexity (DAoC was an exception, but that's a long story), but without really iterating on anything or reconsidering anything. Once something was in a game, it was in. Blizzard didn't do that. WoW got revised and changed and upgraded and systems removed or altered regularly in a way other MMOs didn't. Given MMOs take 3-6 years to develop, any that tried to copy WoW's ideas (and many did) often ended up copying ideas that WoW had iterated on repeatedly by the time the other MMO came out and could start playing catch-up.

The term "WoW-killer" was generated by online media - the term "clickbait" would have been applied to it if it had existed at the time. It's a dramatic term designed to catch the eye, draw attention, and get clicks rather than be entirely accurate. Very few people want WoW to actually be shut down due to loss of it's playerbase to other games. What most people actually want is a variety of options in the MMO market, innovation and new ideas being marketable rather than shut down under the oppressive domination of WoW.

This is where I disagree.

"WoW-killer" as a term was perpetuated by fans for a long time before "online media" used it as "clickbait". People honestly believed it, to be fair, in part because WoW itself "killed" a number of MMOs (EQ and DAoC among them, and FFXI in the West), and previously, no MMO had really lasted more than 3-5 years before essentially being "replaced", due to the population largely shifting, whether to a competitor MMO, or a sequel. Previously too, when an MMO got big, that made other MMOs successful as people left looking for something a bit different. Everyone expected this to happen with WoW, and it was actually relatively little-discussed in the media until Warhammer: Age of Reckoning.

It's true to say people didn't want WoW to be "shut down", but there was an expectation and arguably a desire that a new game come along and "blow away" WoW like WoW "blew away" EQ/DAoC/FFXI etc., and that WoW would just fade into being another "background MMORPG", happily chugging away with a limited audience (as EQ1 still was).

It wasn't some kind of scheme where the media "trumped up" games as WoW-killers though. That was fans. The media picked up on it and certainly used it a bit, but the vast majority of "So and so will kill WoW!" was fans.

Right now it looks like there's nothing out there still to even really be much in the way of competition. FFXIV has its fans, but no zeitgeist and if anything seems to be getting left behind by sticking to an aesthetic that makes the game look very "2014" even as WoW's more primitive aesthetic looks more modern/lively (and it also seems to be maybe gradually getting even more "anime"). Stuff like Genshin Impact is successful but targeting a very different audience with a very different methodology (I'd actually love a game part-way between GI and WoW). Amazon's New World has been through some huge changes but really just has that "failed WoW killer" vibe already. I personally hope it's actually great, but gameplay-wise it looks like a mash-up of WoW and GW2 (leaning towards the latter), with a lot more crafting, and aesthetically it's looking like Warhammer but more colonial. And the colonial angle just seems like a terrible idea. I know they've played it down, but it's still weird AF. Why not set it on a newly emerged Atlantis or something, rather than what is obviously intended to be early colonial North America (replete with wild turkeys, bison, etc.)? It's not likely to kill it, but it's not an aesthetic/setting anyone was begging for, and it's one I think a lot of people faintly dislike and that feels a bit... "granddad".

[Frolk]

Offtopic, their delay caused GrindingGearGames to delay the December 3.13 patch till January, kinda unreal to delay a game that is not even the same genre as our own.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2982929

[whoisqnx]

Also, delaying your own game because of Cyberpunk's release date would be a bit of a joke..

X: "So, we are releasing Cyberpunk this date"
Y: "Oh no, time to move our own game's release date because of Cyberpunk"
X: So, we are delaying Cyberpunk for the 3rd time"
Y: "Oh no, we have to move our own game's release date again because of Cyberpunk"

yeah no.

[WowIsDead64]

Other games' release dates have never affected World of Warcraft's release dates in such a way. In fact, there have been multiple times when Blizzard has released an expansion pack or content patch exactly on the same date as direct competition's release dates.

Yeah, Pandas didn't have jump puzzle crap and scenarios due to release of GW2 and WOD didn't have Garrisions due to release of Wildstar.

[Stabbyfists]

This feels a lot like when some unpopular kid is claiming all the things the vastly more popular kid did were in some way to "get at" the unpopular kid. I very much doubt Blizzard has some sort of conspiracy to undermine FFXIV of all things.

Final Fantasy XIV will release patch 5.4 in december no matter what

*Shadowlands launches November 23rd, a week before December*

Yes It might be a conspiracy but these dates are way too close to be coincidence.

Also correct me if im wrong, but I believe FFXIV is on PAR with WoW in terms of active subscribers at the moment so its 2 popular kids going after one another in order to gain more influence.

[Bane-Thunder-God]

Cyberpunk has nothing to do with Shadowlands and vice-versa these two games don't affect each other AT ALL.

[Collected]

Cyberpunk has nothing to do with Shadowlands and vice-versa these two games don't affect each other AT ALL.

I disagree. Cyberpunk is such a highly anticipated game that no gaming company would want to force it's player base to decide which game to play. That's why GGG delayed POE 3.13. They openly stated the reason was the Cyberpunk clash. It will also pull absolutely ridiculous numbers on Twitch which is clearly going to be a concern for any company releasing a new product.

[Yunzi]

Cyberpunk 2077 is the most anticipated game release in history. Several developers, even the ones of Path of Exile, not in direct genre-competition with CP2077, have altered their content schedule around Cyberpunk. Part of the Activision-Blizzard decision to release Shadowlands when they are is precisely that it preempts CP2077, and with good SL content over the months of December and January hopefully those players can be retained even in the face of Releasing the Kraken.

[rhorle]

Cyberpunk 2077 is the most anticipated game release in history. Several developers, even the ones of Path of Exile, not in direct genre-competition with CP2077, have altered their content schedule around Cyberpunk. Part of the Activision-Blizzard decision to release Shadowlands when they are is precisely that it preempts CP2077, and with good SL content over the months of December and January hopefully those players can be retained even in the face of Releasing the Kraken.

The decision by Blizzard has nothing to do with Cyberpunk. They are opening up the first tier of raiding on December 8th and Mythic on December 15th. Cyberpunk falls on December 10th. Path of Exile devs also seem more likely to use it as an excuse because of a tight development schedule that they have been changing this year including a new style for their expansions scope.

[rrayy]

Cyberpunk 2077 is the most anticipated game release in history. Several developers, even the ones of Path of Exile, not in direct genre-competition with CP2077, have altered their content schedule around Cyberpunk. Part of the Activision-Blizzard decision to release Shadowlands when they are is precisely that it preempts CP2077, and with good SL content over the months of December and January hopefully those players can be retained even in the face of Releasing the Kraken.

Raiding starts on Cyberpunk's release date proving Cyberpunk was irrelevant to their decision making process.

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I disagree. Cyberpunk is such a highly anticipated game that no gaming company would want to force it's player base to decide which game to play. That's why GGG delayed POE 3.13. They openly stated the reason was the Cyberpunk clash. It will also pull absolutely ridiculous numbers on Twitch which is clearly going to be a concern for any company releasing a new product.

Well, Blizzard obviously doesn't agree with you. Cyberpunk was irrelevant to them.

[arkanon]

Also correct me if im wrong, but I believe FFXIV is on PAR with WoW in terms of active subscribers at the moment so its 2 popular kids going after one another in order to gain more influence.

Where are you getting wows subscription numbers from to make such an assessment?

[ClassicPeon]

Its hard to come back here and not gloat tbh

It would be nice if people could take this as a lesson not to be so absolutely sure they are right as soon as they form an opinion on something.

[arkanon]

Its hard to come back here and not gloat tbh

It would be nice if people could take this as a lesson not to be so absolutely sure they are right as soon as they form an opinion on something.

what is there to gloat about? That your wild guess was somewhat right and someone else's wild guess was wrong? For all you know, they originally planned to launch it on the 8th, but when CP announced they would release just days later, they changed it to November to avoid a clash. So yeah, maybe take your own advice and avoid being "absolutely sure they are right" when you clearly dont have all the information.

[Stabbyfists]

Where are you getting wows subscription numbers from to make such an assessment?

https://www.pcgamesn.com/final-fanta...v-player-count - Final Fantasy's player count hit 20 million
https://venturebeat.com/2020/07/22/f...llion-players/ - Multiple Sources for you

If these numbers are true then unless WoW has surpassed its prime of 12 million players back during Wrath of the Lich King then Its safe to say Final Fantasy could be seen as a threat to World of Warcraft as a whole. It might not be the WoW killer but it is the WoW competitor and it would make sense to tailor its release dates around FFXIV's schedule in order to retain player interest in the MMORPG genre.

Edit just incase I get accused : I am not a FFXIV apologist, I actually subscribe to both World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy and I see the strengths of both games. I love the Size and scale of WoW's raiding while I prefer the depth and world building of Final Fantasy's story. Both games have their strengths and weaknesses.

Edit 2 - I also have played end game content sadly I didn't get my Mythic kill of N'zoth before my raiding team took a break but 11 out of 12 mythic isn't bad. I have killed Savage Shiva and The Epic of Alexander in FFXIV as well. I have every class in FFXIV and WoW max level, geared, and can say safely I have traversed both worlds to completion to form my opinions.

Edit 3 - Also Final Fantasy may have a leg up on WoW in terms of subscribers as its playable on more than just a PC. Therefore you can have access to both the PC and Console market which gives it an edge over WoW.

[ClassicPeon]

what is there to gloat about? That your wild guess was somewhat right and someone else's wild guess was wrong? For all you know, they originally planned to launch it on the 8th, but when CP announced they would release just days later, they changed it to November to avoid a clash. So yeah, maybe take your own advice and avoid being "absolutely sure they are right" when you clearly dont have all the information.

Wild guess about what?

I've been speaking out against people who have been adamant about certain dates. Thats what i would have to gloat about.

I dont know why you keep trying to answer my posts without knowing the context and acting like you somehow caught me.

I think this is the third time now oO

[Nize]

what is there to gloat about? That your wild guess was somewhat right and someone else's wild guess was wrong? For all you know, they originally planned to launch it on the 8th, but when CP announced they would release just days later, they changed it to November to avoid a clash. So yeah, maybe take your own advice and avoid being "absolutely sure they are right" when you clearly dont have all the information.

There was absolutely no way it was coming out in December. They weren't gonna kill momentum for expansion launch to wait a month in a half for season 1 release. Regardless of anything, Season 1 was gonna release 2-3 weeks after xpac launch.