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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Wadrak View Post
    I understand your scepticism ... but then you can ask yourself whether beating a script a pattern means any success at all ?

    Yes you can plan for it and organize better but is it at all challenging ?
    Yes. It is. That's a ridiculous rhetorical question. Being able to perform Liszt's "La Campanella" isn't suddenly not challenging because you can read the sheet music.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    "Who knew that proper raid design was so difficult?"

    That's what you sound like. Yes, I'm difficult because I've actually done Mythic and know that being dicked by random bullshit like that is incredibly annoying on both progression and reclears. Jaina was already bad enough with her final Icefall killing attempts 9 minutes in. There is absolutely no need to spread shit like that to every boss.
    The issue comes from things happening completely outside of our control that GREATLY increase the difficulty of content that is already tuned so finely that minor mistakes often equal a wipe. This is a COMMON complaint from the high end raiding community - progressing on a boss HUNDREDS of attempts in, only to have the 10 minute attempt wiped because X ability randomly happened, causing an unavoidable wipe.

    The trumpeting for randomness often comes from those doing low tier content hoping to make it a little more dynamic and exciting, because when things go wrong in lower difficulties you can Usually recover from it with some defensives. I also think there are a lot of players uncomfortable pushing themselves, and massively over gearing content, so their perception of raiding is quite different to those who progress through the content with the relevant ilvl.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroticaine View Post
    Yes. It is. That's a ridiculous rhetorical question. Being able to perform Liszt's "La Campanella" isn't suddenly not challenging because you can read the sheet music.
    Bingo - this is the core of the issue right here - execution seems to be entirely taken out of the equation for the sake of supporting their already terribly weak argument. If scripted content was "easy", there would only be mythic difficulty and everyone would be comparing speed runs, but that is NOT the situation.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post

    Bingo - this is the core of the issue right here - execution seems to be entirely taken out of the equation for the sake of supporting their already terribly weak argument. If scripted content was "easy", there would only be mythic difficulty and everyone would be comparing speed runs, but that is NOT the situation.
    Though as far as this goes, I can understand it. From the point of view of a singular player, execution is not that great of a metric, because many a time, even if they perform at their best, it just changes nothing in the encounter, as long as others keep fucking up. That also isn't fun (and a reason why former top raiders find it so hard to raid in shit guilds again, ).

  4. #144
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wadrak View Post
    Yes, I want it significantly more random then its now but not too random.
    You either have random or not. There is no partly random.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroticaine View Post
    Yes. It is. That's a ridiculous rhetorical question. Being able to perform Liszt's "La Campanella" isn't suddenly not challenging because you can read the sheet music.
    This reply here is basically the only reply that ever needs to be put into threads like this. Since it perfectly sums up the argument against randomness in encounters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cracked View Post
    Though as far as this goes, I can understand it. From the point of view of a singular player, execution is not that great of a metric, because many a time, even if they perform at their best, it just changes nothing in the encounter, as long as others keep fucking up. That also isn't fun (and a reason why former top raiders find it so hard to raid in shit guilds again, ).
    You think People would fuck up even less or more in their execution if it had random elements to it.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroticaine View Post
    Yes. It is. That's a ridiculous rhetorical question. Being able to perform Liszt's "La Campanella" isn't suddenly not challenging because you can read the sheet music.
    When you say things like Liszt's "La Campanella"
    Thats exactly why pve feels like Figure skating instead of rpg.
    You are not making decisions. You are just following the script.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post

    This reply here is basically the only reply that ever needs to be put into threads like this. Since it perfectly sums up the argument against randomness in encounters.
    For me this reply only confirms why I would like randomness.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    The issue comes from things happening completely outside of our control that GREATLY increase the difficulty of content that is already tuned so finely that minor mistakes often equal a wipe. This is a COMMON complaint from the high end raiding community - progressing on a boss HUNDREDS of attempts in, only to have the 10 minute attempt wiped because X ability randomly happened, causing an unavoidable wipe.

    The trumpeting for randomness often comes from those doing low tier content hoping to make it a little more dynamic and exciting, because when things go wrong in lower difficulties you can Usually recover from it with some defensives. I also think there are a lot of players uncomfortable pushing themselves, and massively over gearing content, so their perception of raiding is quite different to those who progress through the content with the relevant ilvl.

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    Bingo - this is the core of the issue right here - execution seems to be entirely taken out of the equation for the sake of supporting their already terribly weak argument. If scripted content was "easy", there would only be mythic difficulty and everyone would be comparing speed runs, but that is NOT the situation.
    There's indeed little place for randomness when the execution requirement are so tight that a small mistake from one or two people means a wipe. On Normal it might be acceptable to have the boss throw out the script, on Mythic it's a recipe for disaster and isn't what people want from high-end raiding anyway. By and large raid design has been close to 16 years of rewarding repetition, practice and pattern recognition. I really fail to see the gain in upending a structure that works especially when the OP clearly has absolutely no idea what they're talking about anyway.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Kami Dende View Post
    You think People would fuck up even less or more in their execution if it had random elements to it.
    No, I don't agree at all, I'm just saying if you aren't the problem, fights where your execution is scripted and rarely to never changes are boring as hell if you are to do them multiple nights a week.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    There's indeed little place for randomness when the execution requirement are so tight that a small mistake from one or two people means a wipe. On Normal it might be acceptable to have the boss throw out the script, on Mythic it's a recipe for disaster and isn't what people want from high-end raiding anyway. By and large raid design has been close to 16 years of rewarding repetition, practice and pattern recognition. I really fail to see the gain in upending a structure that works especially when the OP clearly has absolutely no idea what they're talking about anyway.
    Personally, I think this sort of boss battle is perfect for something like the Mage Tower - no issue AT ALL with that. Same with Taughast, no problem at all. But miss me with that "haha, you wiped because RNG says so and there is NOTHING you could have done to change it LOL" shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wadrak View Post
    You are not making decisions. You are just following the script.
    .
    Spoken like a person who has not done any meaningful, challenging content in over a decade. And someone who ENTIRELY misses the point being raised. Go do mythic, then come back and say "man, I wish we sometimes randomly wiped because RNG said so"

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    Personally, I think this sort of boss battle is perfect for something like the Mage Tower - no issue AT ALL with that. Same with Taughast, no problem at all. But miss me with that "haha, you wiped because RNG says so and there is NOTHING you could have done to change it LOL" shit.

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    Spoken like a person who has not done any meaningful, challenging content in over a decade. And someone who ENTIRELY misses the point being raised. Go do mythic, then come back and say "man, I wish we sometimes randomly wiped because RNG said so"
    Well even the Mage Tower had elements of progression; before getting good gear, making it to phase 2 of the tank challenge with only, say, 2 Infernals was a mark of good progress. If the fight decided that, fuck you, this time around infernals drop twice as fast, or the boss casts little but his life drain, then you're basically fucked and your accumulated practice and knowledge now serves nothing and you might as well suicide. Torghast has a lot more randomness to it baked into its roguelite genre so that's definitely something to consider, especially given that the challenges there aren't designed with a specific playstyle unlike Mage Tower since there's far too much variety in specs and anima powers.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  10. #150
    At this point it should be pretty obvious that OP is trolling.

    Well played dude, you got me good.

  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Accendor View Post
    At this point it should be pretty obvious that OP is trolling.

    Well played dude, you got me good.
    Even before you posted this reply I thought Im not gonna reply anymore to this thread.
    I replied enough.

    Im not trolling sorry to dissapoint you.

    Im just giving you feedback as player who played the game and suggestion which would
    in my opinion improve the game. If you have different opinion I understand.

    To be honest to me it feels like you are trolling about me claiming Im trolling

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