Random vs scripted pve game mechanics

[ymirsson]

This is exactly why high end pve is a joke. Its all scripted and an addon does it for you. I've been in a us 6th guild throughout legion and wod, and can barely hit above 2.3k in 3s. Pvp actually takes a lot more skill to be able to handle and adapt to many random situations. Pve is honestly a scripted joke

So you have done all PvE encounters successfully?

[Synical123]

Randomness doesnt make it more challenging, just more difficult to measure failure.

No one likes failing at an encounter because 'random thing' happened instead of 'other random thing'.

What you just described is more challenging lol.

[Rainyhealz]

So you have done all PvE encounters successfully?

Eventually everyone does. You hit your head against a nail so many times and eventually it'll go in- pve

[ymirsson]

Eventually everyone does.

That's not true.

[Wadrak]

This argument fails as soon as there is some kind of serious competition involved. Would you be happy about being second place if it was caused by having the a bad string of random occurences?

Not to mention that in a raid of 20 people, there is already an element of human error involved.

Well thing is Im aware of that but its not something which a priority for me.

Priority for me and I believe most players is to have fun in the game.
And fun in the game comes primary for challenge atleast for me.
Also story and other things. Like finding out how classes work
improving etc.

Im not looking for serious competition.

Its sad that it would affect it but to tell you the truth this game is not for serious competition.
You can make sport and competition in many things for sure but doesnt mean its 100% balanced.

[ymirsson]

Well thing is Im aware of that but its not something which a priority for me.

Well then, accept that your priorities are not that important and move on.

[Baleful]

Jaina was random and it was awful.

[Mirishka]

Hey guys,

I came back to wow recently to prepare for Shadowlands which I would like to play.

I was playing some bfa dungeons and raids.

And as we all know PvE encounters are scripted.
For example

Boss 1, is going to use ability A in 30 seconds
ability B in 45 seconds
again ability A in another 30 seconds
ability C in 2 mins
ability B in another 45 seconds.

So we have addons like Deadly boss mods or BigWigs etc to show us countdown when these abilities happen.

But what if we instead had bosses which would use abilites at little bit more random timers ?
In order to create more challenge in the game.

For example

Boss 1, is going to use ability A in 10-30 seconds
ability B in 30-55 seconds
again ability A in another 10-30 seconds
ability C in 1.30-2:30 mins
ability B in another 30-55 seconds.

Or what if for example adds group which spawn during bosses would each time spawn different mobs ?

I think boss like inquistor guy in Vault of Wardens he always spawned different add group in random order (not 100% sure about this, maybe it was the same order)
Or in Violet hold dungeon you always get different boss out of the pool, even though the dungeon was too easy, because of no mythic plus

I think it could make the pve encounters a lot more fun and challenging if its more random rather then scripted.

I know in Tower of Torghast they add random enemies you face each time. This is nice.

At first there was only one difficulty of dungeons and raids.
Then they added heroic more dungeons, later raids.
They they added mythic dungeons and raids. After that mythic plus affixes.

Players always improved and catch up even with mythic plus

I dont know perhaps this could be another way to make the game more challenging

I think its something that sounds more fun on paper than it would be in reality.

[TEHPALLYTANK]

Eventually everyone does. You hit your head against a nail so many times and eventually it'll go in- pve

You dodged the question, why?

[CerealLord]

Best part of this thread is the OP stating that PVE is not challenging enough and hasn't even played the current game.

Randomness sucks especially when it makes an encounter significantly harder on certain weeks.

Not the best example, but I remember certain weeks on Halfus being absolute shit because of the dragon combination that was up. At least that was known in advance. If that changed every attempt it would be miserable.

[Jastall]

Eventually everyone does. You hit your head against a nail so many times and eventually it'll go in- pve

One way of dodging the question. I actually do not believe a top 10 US player would have your opinion yet consistently sit through the two most difficult expansions raiding-wise. Sorry not sorry. "An addon does it for you"? Come the fuck on, you sound like one of those ignorant Classic players who thought it would take months to down C'thun again or something.

To say nothing of the fact that your statement is not true, because barely more than a single-digit percentage of the playerbase even kills a Mythic boss, let alone gets Cutting Edge, let alone is in the Hall of Fame.

[Cracked]

This is exactly why high end pve is a joke. Its all scripted and an addon does it for you. I've been in a us 6th guild throughout legion and wod, and can barely hit above 2.3k in 3s. Pvp actually takes a lot more skill to be able to handle and adapt to many random situations. Pve is honestly a scripted joke

That's sort of like comparing NASCAR to soccer though, you are measuring completely different skillsets. If you think scripted nature makes it easy, well, good for you I guess?

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Eventually everyone does. You hit your head against a nail so many times and eventually it'll go in- pve

With enough nerfs, sure. Otherwise people just get too frustrated. E.g. what happened on Star Augur or Kil'jaeden.

[Wadrak]

Best part of this thread is the OP stating that PVE is not challenging enough and hasn't even played the current game.

Randomness sucks especially when it makes an encounter significantly harder on certain weeks.

Not the best example, but I remember certain weeks on Halfus being absolute shit because of the dragon combination that was up. At least that was known in advance. If that changed every attempt it would be miserable.

I have played a lot of current game.

I played 6 months in Legion very actively.

Did lot of raiding and mythic +, highest key I did was above +20 NL in time.
Even some mythic raiding.

For BFA I switched roles, I played tank as main.

Perhaps I didnt enjoy tanking as much so I didnt play that frequently.
Or I missed dps competition on dps meter.

[CerealLord]

I have played a lot of current game.

I played 6 months in Legion very actively.

Did lot of raiding and mythic +, highest key I did was above +20 NL in time.
Even some mythic raiding.

For BFA I switched roles, I played tank as main.

Perhaps I didnt enjoy tanking as much so I didnt play that frequently.
Or I missed dps competition on dps meter.

Except you said:

Since then I only played here and there did only few mythic bosses, none in BFA actually.

You are not playing the current game in the iteration being discussed. Just doing m+ or other content does not give you an informed opinion on difficulty of current content and how randomness affects it.

You have been told multiple times, from current raiders, that your opinion is flawed because of not having those experiences. It is perfectly fine to have an opinion, but if you are not allowing it to be informed by people running the content, then you aren't looking for a discussion. You just want to say "this is how it is and you all should agree with me"

[Wadrak]

Except you said:



You are not playing the current game in the iteration being discussed. Just doing m+ or other content does not give you an informed opinion on difficulty of current content and how randomness affects it.

You have been told multiple times, from current raiders, that your opinion is flawed because of not having those experiences. It is perfectly fine to have an opinion, but if you are not allowing it to be informed by people running the content, then you aren't looking for a discussion. You just want to say "this is how it is and you all should agree with me"

Only think you are saying is that I dont have those experiences.

You are not giving me any concrete argument which would change my opinion.
Its you who is not looking for discussion. You are telling me I cant even discuss.

Let me tell you the big secret. I pay same amount of money for sub then you.

[CerealLord]

Only think you are saying is that I dont have those experiences.

You are not giving me any concrete argument which would change my opinion.
Its you who is not looking for discussion. You are telling me I cant even discuss.

Let me tell you the big secret. I pay same amount of money for sub then you.

No one told you that you cannot discuss. You have been given numerous reasons why randomness is not good, especially for raiding, but refuse to even acknowledge them and instead just keep stating why randomness is good, with examples that do not further your point. Just new examples of the same thing.

Imagine if m+ changes its affixes everytime you queued for a dungeon. It would be madness.

[Wadrak]

No one told you that you cannot discuss. You have been given numerous reasons why randomness is not good, especially for raiding, but refuse to even acknowledge them and instead just keep stating why randomness is good, with examples that do not further your point. Just new examples of the same thing.

Imagine if m+ changes its affixes everytime you queued for a dungeon. It would be madness.

Funny you are not mentioning quite a few people who agree with me in the thread

You mentions just those who disagree.

[Advent]

I think the point is you did the easiest Heroic/Mythic content, haven't actually done much since then, but are asking for more difficult content. Quite frankly if you did anything more than just dipping your toe into Mythic, which is essentially all you've done, you'd understand why this is such an awful idea. The top players already take hundreds of attempts on mythic bosses, you're looking at increasing that number multiple fold while not actually adding any difficulty. This really wouldn't play out like you think, people would simply wipe and reset as soon as they knew whether RNG was going to favor them or not. This is just bad and unfun design, imagine a night where you just wipe 50+ times in a row on a boss because RNG never lines up instead of making actual mistakes that lead to learning and improving. Man, what a great time.

If I recall, people did something similar for Spirit Kings back in MoP.

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Funny you are not mentioning quite a few people who agree with me in the thread

You mentions just those who disagree.

Who? Find them. Don't worry, we'll wait.

[Otimus]

The game doesn't even really have AI. MMORPGs in general seem to greatly frown upon that. WoW especially is like some mediocre playing action-adventure game with gunky RPG mechanics duct taped to a gigantic lobby that doesn't even matter because everything of value is instanced. You get none of the benefits of it being an engaging action game with AI and mechanics tailored to individual ability, and none of the benefits of it being an MMO, because, well, every damned thing that matters is instanced, and, of course, they've gutted everything even remotely RPG-y from it. The game practically has no identity at all anymore, outside of being that game with pretty good raids by the standard of MMORPG raids, and not much else, which is truly bizarre of a thing to be such a big deal because almost no one even does them.

[Wadrak]

Who? Find them. Don't worry, we'll wait.

Zmagoslav, Scrod, InfiniteCharger, Protean, Oscassey, AlmightyGerkin

Player from TOP 6 US guild included, because I realized thats what matter to you.