Page 10 of 13 FirstFirst ...
8
9
10
11
12
... LastLast
  1. #181
    TBC was the best expansion and netherstorm a space like zone was amazing, also tempest keep which looked like some alien ship was a great raid/dungeon hub

  2. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    I have issues with portraying Warhammer fantasy as "medieval". Even if we extend that term to the Renaissance, there's only a handful of factions that fit the term; Empire, Bretonnia (who admittedly fit it to a T and then some), High Elves, Dark Elves and Vampire Counts. Everyone else is either too low tech, too high tech, or just too different to seriously qualify; and considering that Renaissance is the lowest tech level of the Empire and they go all the way to rocket batteries and tanks, I'm being quite generous with their inclusion.

    Age of Sigmar is also way farther than Warcraft in its heroic scale. Everything in that setting is about planar conflicts and gods settling scores and the setting doesn't even start to attempt to ground itself. Warcraft has variants of that happening sometimes, but hardly all the time; Legion and potentially Shadowlands are the only expansions where things got that grand, and we just had an xpack that was mostly about a war between two factions over lands, fleets and resources until things veered into Lovecraft lite. Warcraft is far, far more similar to Warhammer Fantasy, a setting which it has shamelessly copied all the way back to WC1, than it is to Age of Sigmar.
    I think you are right, and a more apt description would be simply using a broader 'High Fantasy' categorization for Warhammer. However, my argument is simply to show how broad the 'Medieval Fantasy' description applies.

    I also don't consider Warcraft a Medieval Fantasy in the truest sense of the word, but I'll regard the colloquial use of the term to describe the series if it's a matter of non-specific categorization. Kinda like how someone might refer to a Chimpanzee as a 'monkey', I don't think it's worth making a huge fuss over.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2020-11-05 at 12:20 AM.

  3. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I think you are right, and a more apt description would be simply using a broader 'High Fantasy' categorization for Warhammer. However, my argument is simply to show how broad the 'Medieval Fantasy' description applies.

    I also don't consider Warcraft a Medieval Fantasy in the truest sense of the word, but I'll regard the colloquial use of the term to describe the series if it's a matter of non-specific categorization. Kinda like how someone might refer to a Chimpanzee as a 'monkey', I don't think it's worth making a huge fuss over.
    When I think of a fantasy with a medieval and fairly grounded feel, The Witcher or Game of Thrones/ASoIaF are more what I have in mind. Sure, there's some crazy magic shit happening in the former, but for the post part it visually and thematically tries to not overdo things. Same got GoT which, while it has magic and dragons, is still tons less fantastical than Warcraft. At the most I'd put Dragon Age there which is definitely higher than these two on the fantasy totem pole with its omnipresent magic and regional threats but it's still resolutely medieval.

    Warcraft... isn't like these at all. It had alien invaders from game 1 and 19th, even 20th century technology from game 2. Game 3 added stuff we can't even do such as autonomous robots and mech suits, on top of a global scale of threat that only partially descalated since, and mostly escalated really. It kinda grounds itself one minute and the next it has dinosaur demigods fighting building-sized tanks. Its armies from hell have giant mechas alongside their shirtless dudes with axes. Even back in Classic one of the villains was a dragon who did chemical and genetic experiments on his own kind. It never fit the resolutely grounded medieval fantasy angle some claim it had IMO.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  4. #184
    Scarab Lord
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    In the same urn as Vol'Jin
    Posts
    4,127
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    WoW is certainly successful and I absolutely regard this in full. I'm not openly criticizing the game for having hearthstones and portals, I am simply offering an opinion that I think the game could be more immersive if taken in a more 'hardcore' direction. There are some lessons of Classic that were taken away, and convenience has muddled some aspects of the game that people wanted to see brought back in moderation. I think this all adds value to the moderated and paced feeling of game, and Classic offers an experience that even Shadowlands' improved leveling system does not. You can criticize Classic for being stupidly slow and backwards, but ultimately that is also opinion.
    I don't disagree that it could be more immersive if it was more "hardcore", but I think the issue that's rarely acknowledged (not saying you do, absolutely saying 99% of people discussing similar points to you don't) is that this would inevitably have a negative impact on WoW's population and financial success. Every MMO that has gone that way has failed dismally, even the ones which were relatively well-designed (WildStar, for example). They've failed notably harder than MMOs which merely "weren't WoW". Most of the "Not WoW" MMOs are still running. Every single "BACK 2 THA HARDCORE LYFE!" MMO, even the more moderate ones like WildStar is actually shut down, not even running in some maintenance mode.

    You could also make WoW more immersive without making it much more hardcore, frankly. I also don't think whether WoW is "low level" as per this meaning of "medieval fantasy" has much bearing on how immersive it is. Maybe not at all. I think internal consistency and so on has more impact, and as much as people love to shit on WoW's writing, the internal consistency and atmosphere of the writing in Legion and BfA is vastly better than it was in most previous expansions and SL looks to be the same way (noting that there is a stark difference between people having messageboard hissy fits about whether Sylvanas has been "ruined" or not doesn't have much bearing on whether the writing is actually any good).

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Personally, I don't care much for Classic only because of the content itself. I've been there done that. Now if we are talking about a theoretic Classic Plus where it is Classic gameplay and new content, I'm all for that. Sadly, this would be more effort than its worth, and Blizzard will not likely pour developer resources into doing something like this. It's simply more likely they would work on retooling existing content since it's way more cost effective - completely understandable from a game development perspective.
    Not just that but it creates a confusing situation for consumers and potentially creates a "between two stools" situation, where customers who were playing retail, go play "Classic Plus", then retail has an expansion or content update, so they go back, now Classic Plus has one, now retail has one, and eventually a lot of people may feel like they're behind on both and just throw their hands in the air.

    Personally I don't think the Classic gameplay is particularly wonderful, having played WoW since open beta of Vanilla. There's a lot of stuff I like, but it was already being minimized by the end of Vanilla, and in some ways, 9.0 gameplay actually feels more like WoW is "WoW" than it has for a long time (countless people will disagree of course).


    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I frame it clearly as an opinion, not as a statement that needs to be applied universally.

    This is funny you consider this complaining, coming from the guy who is being fussy over "medieval fantasy". I am illustrating a difference between Warcraft's setting in the 90's-early 2000's and Warcraft's setting circa 2020, and explaining my preference. I never said current WoW was bad or terrible for having super powered characters, this is where you are projecting.

    I enjoy current WoW story just as much as I enjoy a Disney live action remake. The remakes are good and fun but one can have the opinion that the originals were better without inferring the remakes are terrible. Understand?
    Sure, but you don't seem to get that what I'm saying is that there's more difference between WC1, and Vanilla WoW, in terms of themes/settings and particularly "medieval fantasy"-ness than there is between Vanilla WoW and BfA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Happy to disagree with you.

    Comic book character style power scaling is subjective. I am not 'reaching back 18 years' to say my preference for the Warcraft setting is in the original RTS, I am literally explaining this is what Warcraft setting I prefer. The Warcraft movie, despite its flaws, did a pretty good job of focusing on a setting that focused on the sword and sorcery aspects of the world. Yes, there were definitely superhuman feats done, and supernatural elements, and that is okay, but the setting of the movie is very different in tone from say a Warlords of Draenor which featured many of the same reocurring characters but portrayed in a much more archetypical 'comic book superhero' way. One example is Blackhand's design in the movie, and his design in the game. Very different approaches we are talking about here.
    WoD is an interesting aberration in terms of "comic-book-ness". It's easily the most "comic-book" of WoW's expansions, right down to the way the titular Warlords are introduced. It's not fair to suggest that Legion/BfA "went further" here. Particularly not BfA, which turns down (for what) the cosmic woo-woo factor despite "HER WOONS". Cataclysm is the worst-written expansion, on every level (from the worst dialogue, worst overall plot, worst zone subplots, worst-written quest chains, even the clumsiest in-dungeon dialogue), but that's neither here nor there. Legion is the most cosmic-ly OTT with all the wild things happening, but is still less "comic-book" and "superhero"-ish than WoD, I feel.

    I don't think the movie is different in tone/style to BfA, particularly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    This is where you are absolutely projecting.
    From what you say after that point it seems like you don't know what "projecting" in the psychological sense means (attributing MY opinions to you, you seem instead to be misusing to attributing someone else's opinions to you, or misunderstanding your opinions). So that's a curious one.

    The problem with "simpler times" is that WoW has never really been set in simpler times. If you're claiming BfA is "Avengers mode", then every expansion has been, which means WoW has been in "Avengers mode" longer than Marvel has been making the modern Marvel movies, which is quite a claim. This is why I question it so much, especially when people claim they "preferred" it. It's like, all available evidence says that's maybe nostalgia talking, given you played the game for 14+ years when that was over, and weren't keen on Classic (talking about you and the OP here). I'm not psychic. I'm not saying you're lying, either. I'm sure you honestly believe you prefer that. I'm just saying that the evidence that you prefer that is pretty weak. I think making the game be about lower-powered stuff is not something that would make it broadly more popular or enjoyed (I know you're not claiming the latter, but I think it's worth mentioning).

    I notice most of your criticisms focus on stuff from WoD and Cataclysm. Maybe that's an accident, but I don't think so. WoD was when WoW as most comic-book-y and try-hard on certain elements of the drama, and Cataclysm was when WoW was just most shitty-ly written (which, to be fair to the writers, was in large part because it was hugely rushed).
    "A youtuber said so."

    "... some wow experts being interviewed..."

    "According to researchers from Wowhead..."

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by Eurhetemec View Post
    I don't disagree that it could be more immersive if it was more "hardcore", but I think the issue that's rarely acknowledged (not saying you do, absolutely saying 99% of people discussing similar points to you don't) is that this would inevitably have a negative impact on WoW's population and financial success. Every MMO that has gone that way has failed dismally, even the ones which were relatively well-designed (WildStar, for example). They've failed notably harder than MMOs which merely "weren't WoW". Most of the "Not WoW" MMOs are still running. Every single "BACK 2 THA HARDCORE LYFE!" MMO, even the more moderate ones like WildStar is actually shut down, not even running in some maintenance mode.
    I disagree on the basis of a few factors.

    1- WoW is Warcraft. As a Warcraft fan, I would play WoW because of my attachment to this universe.
    2- Investment. I knew of MANY casual players who played WoW, who continued to play WoW because they had already invested so much into the game. For some of these people WoW was their first venture into any Warcraft universe.
    3- Classic WoW is stupidly popular. Let's be honest about this one. I'm not even all that pro-Classic coming back, but I can recognize how large a community there is that *simply prefers* the original content over what we have today.
    4- There is no example of a modern 'Classic WoW' MMO that has the same formula and progressed itself in its own right. WoW is very unique for being what it is, and competitors 'trying to beat WoW' did so in their own way with their own designs with their own mechanics. I've tried many MMO's in my time and I can't put my finger on any one of the perceived 'WoW killers' as actually playing like classic WoW.

    This is why I brought up D3, Diablo 2 and Path of Exile. General Diablo forums would group all Diablo fans together, and if someone voices how they liked Diablo 2 mechanics more and wished D3 incorporated more of its systems, the general response is 'Go play Diablo 2 then'. And I think it's unfair to say because it's ignoring the suggestion to add systems by telling someone to play old content. That is why I think Path of Exile is an ideal example here because it is (generally speaking) Diablo 2 systems in a modern ARPG, and it's an example of how those systems are not old or outdated but simply underutilized by Blizzard in their own sequel. This doesn't make Diablo 3 a bad game, it makes it a *different* game. And we can see that both D3 and Path of Exile have are own successes in their own right. D3 banked on the franchise power and being a mainstay Diablo title; despite having terrible launch and reception for Vanilla D3. Path of Exile has garnered a community through their dedication to providing content and progressing the ARPG experience. Neither is wrong here. And often times, I wonder, what would Diablo 3 be like if it was Path of Exile today? Or if Path of Exile was made an official Diablo franchise? Perhaps it's the optimist in me talking, but I don't think it would be *worse* than what we already have.

    We simply don't have a 'Classic WoW' with modern content to show if it would actually be relevant today. All we have is Classic WoW for historic purposes, and it's already proved itself successful despite all the doomsaying that it's not worth pursuing by the detractors (which I once was).

    You could also make WoW more immersive without making it much more hardcore, frankly. I also don't think whether WoW is "low level" as per this meaning of "medieval fantasy" has much bearing on how immersive it is. Maybe not at all. I think internal consistency and so on has more impact, and as much as people love to shit on WoW's writing, the internal consistency and atmosphere of the writing in Legion and BfA is vastly better than it was in most previous expansions and SL looks to be the same way (noting that there is a stark difference between people having messageboard hissy fits about whether Sylvanas has been "ruined" or not doesn't have much bearing on whether the writing is actually any good).
    I agree with your assessment.

    I mean, it's difficult to properly discuss here because I'm trying to stay on topic for the sake of consistency, yet my problems with modern WoW extend far beyond 'they strayed too far from medieval themes'. The problems I have with their superhero approach comes from their writing, their focus on cartoony 'super villains', their decision to up the power scale each expansion, etc. Some of this stuff is simply necessary for a 16+yr franchise, some of these things I think is a matter of choice.

    One non-Blizzard franchise which I think approaches story and power scaling well is One Piece, which I'm a very big fan of. It's a typical shonen manga, like Dragonball. Yes there are super powerful characters, yes there is obvious power scaling each arc and progressively gets more and more ridiculous, but it's all managed by having very good internal consistency of gauging power. Early on, it establishes what the strongest powers in the world are, and throughout the series it does not reach beyond that. There is a self-imposed limit that lets us know what we're dealing with, and if a character is introduced that is seemingly *godlike*, then we still know that the cap hadn't been reached.

    WoW has already surpassed their cap with Legion, and they have been forced to create even more powerful entities as a response. Now, I understand that WoW's story is written in an episodic basis, and it's not like they have some end-goal plan in mind to finalize the series; but that is sort of the problem with trying to tell a 'shonen' type story. My argument here is that the story could have been more like (the first half of) BFA where the focus is on shifting powers rather than scaling it up. My problems with BFA though is that at the end of the day, it still focuses on a 3rd party 'big bad comic villain' as the source of all the problems, that being either Aszhara, Sylvanas or N'zoth. I don't see these as being problems with the format, it's the power scaling that is an issue.

    I guess my example for this could be Legend of Korra, where the villains introduced are all big threats to the main character, but are not exactly god-like beings with the power to destroy cities. They aren't even more powerful than the Avatar. They're just extremely effective at what they do and are so goal-driven to get it done. And we have those kind of villainous characters in WoW, but they tend to be overshadowed by the comic-book 'big bosses' that appear in the same light. Do we even think twice about Prophet Zul after going through Azshara and N'zoth and Sylvanas? Not really. I think more Rastakhan-like stories is great, where we are incorporating more allies into the mix and treating it like an empire that needs to be addressed. But again, these are loose examples I'm making using existing material. All of this is an example of the type of setting I think most prefer more of, and it gets very messy when it's being mixed in with elements that could be toned back.

    My overall point is Warcraft used to be about warcraft. Epic battles between factions. When leaders die, new ones take their place, the fight goes on. Allies are gained, betrayals split the factions, some get conquered and some get exiled. The factions are ever-changing, and sides can absolutely end on a defeat. That's what I prefer out of Warcraft. Whether or not WoW can properly express this is another discussion; as I'm absolutely NOT saying WoW needs to adhere to my preferences. I am merely expressing my humble opinion.

    Not just that but it creates a confusing situation for consumers and potentially creates a "between two stools" situation, where customers who were playing retail, go play "Classic Plus", then retail has an expansion or content update, so they go back, now Classic Plus has one, now retail has one, and eventually a lot of people may feel like they're behind on both and just throw their hands in the air.
    To be fair, Classic WoW existing today is already what you describe. It is already a 'between two stools' situation if you regard a player's time and dedication is being divided between two separate games. This was the argument I had against Classic WoW in the first place, and frankly I was proven wrong.

    Sure, but you don't seem to get that what I'm saying is that there's more difference between WC1, and Vanilla WoW, in terms of themes/settings and particularly "medieval fantasy"-ness than there is between Vanilla WoW and BfA.
    "Vanilla WoW" has 'Super hero' tropes near the end, so I agree with you that WoW has a lot more difference to WC1.

    I think everything up to Blackwing Lair is the right amount of Sword and Sorcery (of course, there will be specific exceptions, but bear with this generalization). AQ and Naxxramas IMO start a trend towards the typical episodic 'Villain of the week' tropes that have gone far up the ladder. I find this more bittersweet, since I do love it when we fight some big bad bosses but at the same time it strays away from what I consider a sense of adventure. We're straying into 'Guardian of the World' territory, when I think the best approach was keeping us as simple adventurers in an ongoing effort to serve our factions.

    Even if Ragnaros was a worldy threat, it came as somewhat of a surprise to those who didn't really know what they were getting into when they raid 'Molten core'. The tone was still very much rooted in an adventure and going into a dungeon to beat whatever evil lurked at the end. It wasn't something seeded from the beginning that all your progress is geared towards taking this one big bad that everyone knows is the global threat. Of course, this doesn't exactly apply to what you are saying about Medieval Fantasy, but I think my point is that something like Molten Core is low-key enough that it could be comparable to 'an adventurer goes into the Dragon's lair' type of story, whereas what we have today is grown well beyond that.

    WoD is an interesting aberration in terms of "comic-book-ness". It's easily the most "comic-book" of WoW's expansions, right down to the way the titular Warlords are introduced. It's not fair to suggest that Legion/BfA "went further" here. Particularly not BfA, which turns down (for what) the cosmic woo-woo factor despite "HER WOONS". Cataclysm is the worst-written expansion, on every level (from the worst dialogue, worst overall plot, worst zone subplots, worst-written quest chains, even the clumsiest in-dungeon dialogue), but that's neither here nor there. Legion is the most cosmic-ly OTT with all the wild things happening, but is still less "comic-book" and "superhero"-ish than WoD, I feel.

    I don't think the movie is different in tone/style to BfA, particularly.
    I found the movie to be more grounded in its setting. I will admit that both have their fair share of comic-book cartoonyness, so perhaps the Warcraft movie is not the best example. I picked it because it happened to be the most relevant example of any Warcraft setting circa 90's-2000's lore that still had a fairly grounded tone.

    From what you say after that point it seems like you don't know what "projecting" in the psychological sense means (attributing MY opinions to you, you seem instead to be misusing to attributing someone else's opinions to you, or misunderstanding your opinions). So that's a curious one.

    The problem with "simpler times" is that WoW has never really been set in simpler times. If you're claiming BfA is "Avengers mode", then every expansion has been, which means WoW has been in "Avengers mode" longer than Marvel has been making the modern Marvel movies, which is quite a claim. This is why I question it so much, especially when people claim they "preferred" it. It's like, all available evidence says that's maybe nostalgia talking, given you played the game for 14+ years when that was over, and weren't keen on Classic (talking about you and the OP here). I'm not psychic. I'm not saying you're lying, either. I'm sure you honestly believe you prefer that. I'm just saying that the evidence that you prefer that is pretty weak. I think making the game be about lower-powered stuff is not something that would make it broadly more popular or enjoyed (I know you're not claiming the latter, but I think it's worth mentioning).

    I notice most of your criticisms focus on stuff from WoD and Cataclysm. Maybe that's an accident, but I don't think so. WoD was when WoW as most comic-book-y and try-hard on certain elements of the drama, and Cataclysm was when WoW was just most shitty-ly written (which, to be fair to the writers, was in large part because it was hugely rushed).
    It's a very difficult thing to discuss without absolutely straying off topic to hit the core issues that have nothing to do with the actual 'fantasy' of Warcraft.

    But hey, the ball is already rolling so why not.

    I'd say Classic WoW up to Blackwing Lair is the best example of the path I think the game should have taken. There are elements of the expansions that contain this sense of adventure too, and I regard most of that from the questing content more than the application of raids.

    You are correct in assessing every expansion is 'Avengers mode', that is partially what I was getting at. However I will explain that this pertains more towards the approach of raid content, and the decision to build entire expansion plots around big bads that is my criticism. I feel like expansions should simply be new places we explore, and the plots and stories within can be presented in parallel the same way Classic WoW leveling was approached. No need to pintpoint everything down to some nefarious end-plot involving the end of the world 'if we don't stop X'. I feel like a lot of the story becomes contrived because of these kind of threat-driven plots.

    BFA again was bittersweet for me. I loved that we explored Kul Tiras and Zandalar finally. I loved the exploration of the zones and exploring the Drust and learning about the various races of Zandalar; all of that was exactly what I am talking about as being great. However peppered amongst it is the whole macguffin of Azerite and a looming faction war. On top of all that it's working towards Azshara and Old God manipulation being seeded in the zones. To me it's all a bit too convenient, a bit too contrived. I wouldn't mind if it Old God influences within Kul Tiras and Zandalar was something that was hinted at and left to the players to explore and discover, but it's not. It's all put in there to support the whole big bad end-patch fight with N'zoth. Compare this to Classic WoW where you could run into some quest that might hint at Old Gods existing and influencing the world, but it's just one part that doesn't really seed into an obvious 'Old God Worldboss' by the end of the patch. Stories were more smaller scale, more self-contained, and open to player interpretation. There is a sense of mystery and intrigue. I'm not sure if I am explaining this as properly as I see this in my head when I write it, since I'm sure Classic's questing has a very different impression on you than it does to me. I think I would have been happier exploring Alternate Universe Draenor if it wasn't all focused on the Iron Horde having its fingers in everything. The excitement of exploring a new zone, new culture is exciting enough on its own without the need to insert a connection to some greater (cosmic) evil manipulating world.

    I think the questing content in general is still very good, but I think the focus on the big plot points and usually the content surrounding the mid-and-end raid tiers usually scale up the story to absurd levels where questing zone lore doesn't even feel relevant any more. Like, by the time you fight Nyalotha, do you even care about what you learned about the Drust? Not really. The scope of the story has grown well beyond that, and I don't think it necessarily needed to.

    Classic WoW was more about the journey than the end goal. It wasn't all focused down to killing Ragnaros and the Black Dragons and the Old God in Tanaris. Those just happen to be big threats that exist in the world. I think current WoW is a much different vibe where those big threats create a much bigger gap between the questing content and the early raids which have a better connection to the new zones than any of the end-expansion bosses.

    I mean, one example of very popular fantasy series was Game of Thrones. Sure, it had dragons and zombies and magic, but the core part of the series is the war and politics between various kingdoms and royal houses. WC2's setting was the pinnacle of that, with various kingdoms and clans all with their own distinct goals and pursuits.

    Bear with me for this brain fart - I think Warcraft lore could have elevated the kingdoms into proper autonomous nations and the story could have been an epic that shows us the rise and fall of various factions. One expansion could focus on the rise and fall of Stromgarde, one major patch tier could show us how Gilneas betrays the kingdoms and decides to ally itself with the Horde, all the while we have side plots showing the Dragonmaw clan rose back into power by allying with the Black Dragonflight, etc etc. Each expansion could be treated like Game of Thrones books/seasons, progressing more and more and altering the landscape as it goes along. It would be a much slower ramp up towards the more fantastic elements of WoW, and the international politics of the various kingdoms can be our story gateway into worldly threats. We'd see how each nation deals with the Lich King differently. We'd see how the Clans react to a cataclysm in the world, and the content focuses on 'War efforts' to rebuild certain cities or capture new territory. When a new landscape is explored, we see how multiple kingdoms and clans all vie for power on this new landscape. It's not just a simple Red vs Blue vs Black. It would be a much different Warcraft than what we've seen in WoW today, but it is not much different than the themes already present in BFA changing the landscape and focusing on certain inter-faction politics. What I am presenting here is a potential alternative to the 'Big bad Villain' type of expansions we are used to seeing today.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2020-11-06 at 01:04 AM.

  6. #186
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA-US
    Posts
    32,939
    I would say "medieval" might've been in play way back in WC1, but with the inclusion of tanks, submarines, oil, and industry in WC2 that sort of went out the window. Bizarre magitech and similar stuff is now pretty par for the course for the Warcraft universe - and while I don't think it approaches sci-fi it's definitely a melange of different influences and themes.
    "HUMAN BEINGS MAKE LIFE SO INTERESTING. DO YOU KNOW, THAT IN A UNIVERSE SO FULL OF WONDERS, THEY HAVE MANAGED TO INVENT BOREDOM." - Death, Hogfather

  7. #187
    So basically, you want World of Warcraft to make up it's own story instead of using the lore that was already established in Warcraft. Might as well change the name of the game then.

  8. #188
    Yeah I miss the medieval fantasy of wow too.. Engineering robots, explosives, robot mounts, Gnomeregan.. You know, all the good things about medieval times...

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by HadesBlessYou View Post
    it was only a matter of time before the scale of WoW got bigger and we ended up fighting inter-dimensional demons from outer space, traveling to different planets, and now even going into the afterlife.
    but i miss the grounded sense of medieval fantasy in WoW.
    sword and shields, dragons, magic, and the feel you get from (let's say) classic WoW.

    now.....before anybody says "go play Classic" .... that's not what i'm getting at.
    what i'm getting at is that, as WoW's story continues do you think it will ever be grounded again?
    i thought that BFA was an attempt to do that but looking back we see that wasn't the case.
    the stories lined up to be dealt with in the future point to this scale becoming bigger and more out there.
    I agree with you. they went too far with demons using spaceships and robots. i would have preferred they stay a hellish underworld force, like in Diablo. i don't mind them being from outer-space, but i'd rather they use portals, than spaceships.

    They went too far with us going to Argus by a dimensional ship, instead of a portal. Even Sargeras stabbing the World, while we watch from a spaceship, deviates way too much from the fantasy style that characterized Warcraft.

    Things like using a 'Kamehameha' to kill Deathwing, or N'zoth, while M.O.T.H.E.R, a titanic watcher, speaks in a robotic tone, ruins the game's immersion.

    I don't mind us going to the afterlife. it is, after all, grounded in mythology - which, honestly, should be the foundation of Warcraft, and not sci-fi.

    I don't even mind Draenei being an alien race, like the Protoss from Starcraft. as long as they are Paladins, like in fantasy, and not lightsaber wielding sci-fi creatures.

    It doesn't matter that Orcs are from another planet, or that beings from another realm are summoned to Azeroth - as long as it's grounded in magic and not in futuristic technology.

    I don't think people here understand what he meant by "medieval fantasy". it means he would like to keep it a fantasy game, and not make it a sci-fi game like Starcraft, Star Wars or Star Trek.

    Therefore, archaic technology, like that of the Gnomes and Goblins, do not interfere with the fantasy aspect of WoW.

  10. #190
    Pandaren Monk Villager720's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Garithos (US)
    Posts
    1,852
    I personally like that it can be all of these things.
    I really enjoyed the grounded, semi-believable nation of Kul Tiras - but I also loved the dinosaur empire of the Zandalar.
    If everything expansion was just different types of medieval kingdoms, I’d have been bored to tears years ago.

  11. #191
    I agree with Villager and will add, as a fantasy aficionado, that the market for 'medieval fantasy' is probably over-saturated. I mean there are so many out there- like ASOIF and LOTR are the classics, but there is also Malazan, Traitor Son, Heart of the Wyld series, Joe Abercombie's books, Second Apocalypse. I don't mean to criticize any of those- in fact I love many of them- but I feel it would be taking away from the uniqueness of Warcraft if we were to try to revert to a Warcraft 1 setting where technology was still universally primitive.

    Now does that mean I think Warcraft handled technology particularly well? No, I don't think they did. I think they should potray a logically evolving world, with such developments as more footmen switching out swords for rifles and less of those enormous battles as shown in the Siege of Lordaeron (which I think was fucking stupid- clustered troops against massed Blight is a massacare waiting to happen). That doesn't mean that tech advances universally like it does with the West of course- magic makes a huge difference and gives factions such as the Kaldorei or Draenei different paths to advance through.

  12. #192
    Bloodsail Admiral salate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Russia, Samara
    Posts
    1,134
    Was WoW all that medieval to begin with? Well, if you mean slaying dragons and live with swords and shield, then partly the Eastern Kingdoms are all about that, yeah. Plague, genocide, political problems, betrayals... Orcs from the other plane, nagas from the waters, goblins with their steampunk theme...

    I dunno. I love WoW exactly because it shuffles everything. And Metzen started doing it when brought us orc clans, brought us alotta things (well and his team probably) and big thanks for that!
    step into everything will gief ya nothing, mon

  13. #193
    I get where the OP is coming from and I have felt this from time to time. and why I prefer leveling Alliance characters in Eastern Kingdoms, because I love "medieval fantasy" most of all and that continent and races have it most.

    Kul Tiras was actually a breath of fresh air after Legion and some parts feel very inspired by Tolkein and other "medieval fantasy". Stormsong I felt like I was in the Hobbit at times. and Drustvar felt like The Witcher and Diablo

    Like another poster said, I like the mix of all though. Just thinking back to TBC on release and how cool the Outland zones were the first time even though it was "SPACEY". All this is what makes WOW so unique. It's a massive universe that takes inspiration from multiple parts of history/literature/art rather. It makes it cartoony and I like that
    Last edited by urfaustus; 2020-11-07 at 04:12 PM.

  14. #194
    Immortal Soon-TM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Netherstorm
    Posts
    7,067
    Quote Originally Posted by Makabreska View Post
    I mean, Revendreth has a strong medieval Transylvania vibe.
    My take is that we need more Revendreth, more Drustvar, more Jade Forest, and less Argus or AU Draenor.
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by HadesBlessYou View Post
    it was only a matter of time before the scale of WoW got bigger and we ended up fighting inter-dimensional demons from outer space, traveling to different planets, and now even going into the afterlife.
    but i miss the grounded sense of medieval fantasy in WoW.
    sword and shields, dragons, magic, and the feel you get from (let's say) classic WoW.

    now.....before anybody says "go play Classic" .... that's not what i'm getting at.
    what i'm getting at is that, as WoW's story continues do you think it will ever be grounded again?
    i thought that BFA was an attempt to do that but looking back we see that wasn't the case.
    the stories lined up to be dealt with in the future point to this scale becoming bigger and more out there.
    Uh. Even Classic WoW had like, gnomish death rays, guns, lot of weird shit. Idk what to tell you, like. If you think that Vanilla WoW was full-on purist medieval idk what to tell you, either you're remembering wrong or you're deliberately leaving a lot of the explicitly anachronistic weird fun steampunk shit out. And like, that's fine if you want to do that, but it's a false narrative either way. I wouldn't tell you to "go play Classic" because that's shit advice, even Classic doesn't actually have what you seem to be looking for. Maybe "go play Kingdom Come: Deliverance" or something. Something like that has WAY more of the vibe you seem like you're asking for.

    also fwiw I think that the broad scope of genres has a LOT to do with WoW's staying power. if you want to do some weird sci-fi shit, you can be a literal space alien and fly around in a spaceship made out of living crystal. if you're into some more grounded shit, you can play a human warrior and do the whole "knight of stormwind" thing. like, there's something for everyone. and if you get bored with one thing, you can go do something else. other MMO's don't have such broad appeal because they narrow their focus. WoW incorporates a lot from a lot of different genres so it appeals to a broader variety of genre fans. stripping that back, I think, would be a bad move for WoW's staying power and longevity, because say, the sci-fi nerds might be like "well there isn't as much space alien shit in the game anymore, fuck this, it's boring now, I'm going back to STO" and idk I just think that's a mistake. like, wanting your narrow genre focus at the expense of fucking over all the OTHER people that LIKE all the other weird shit, is a really dumb and bad worldview imho. but whatever like, you do what you want.
    "I have watched the other races... I have seen their squabbling, their ruthlessness. Their wars do nothing but scar the land, and drive the wild things to extinction. No, they cannot be trusted. Only beasts are above deceit." - Rexxar

  16. #196
    Warchief Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2019
    Location
    De Other Side (Just kidding) Vancouver Island, BC
    Posts
    2,008
    Quote Originally Posted by Soon-TM View Post
    My take is that we need more Revendreth, more Drustvar, more Jade Forest, and less Argus or AU Draenor.
    And more Nazmir
    I see dead people.... Yes, kinda my ting, ya know

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    I agree with you. they went too far with demons using spaceships and robots. i would have preferred they stay a hellish underworld force, like in Diablo. i don't mind them being from outer-space, but i'd rather they use portals, than spaceships.

    They went too far with us going to Argus by a dimensional ship, instead of a portal. Even Sargeras stabbing the World, while we watch from a spaceship, deviates way too much from the fantasy style that characterized Warcraft.
    That seems rather random. Would you say they had gone to far if they had teleported Dalaran over instead of the Vindicar?

    It doesn't matter that Orcs are from another planet, or that beings from another realm are summoned to Azeroth - as long as it's grounded in magic and not in futuristic technology.

    I don't think people here understand what he meant by "medieval fantasy". it means he would like to keep it a fantasy game, and not make it a sci-fi game like Starcraft, Star Wars or Star Trek.

    Therefore, archaic technology, like that of the Gnomes and Goblins, do not interfere with the fantasy aspect of WoW.
    That's bullshit. Gnome/Goblin tech is the only actual tech, everybody else uses magic to fill in the holes. Legion "spaceships" are basically large pieces of stone kept aloft by burning souls, and the Vindicaar also runs on magic.

    For that matter, you might want to take a closer look at what Star Wars is about. It's a story about swordfighters and wizards(and swordfighting wizards) who just happen to live in a high-tech society. That's still Fantasy.
    Fantasy vs. SciFi isn't about techlevel. Futuristic doesn't mean SciFi, medieval doesn't make it Fantasy. It's what the story is about that makes the difference.

    What ruins your immersion is placing arbitrary limitations on what you deem acceptable or not on the setting, rather than evaluating whether it makes sense for them to have it given their backstory.

  18. #198
    i think 10.0 will be a bit of a return to it

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    That seems rather random. Would you say they had gone to far if they had teleported Dalaran over instead of the Vindicar?



    That's bullshit. Gnome/Goblin tech is the only actual tech, everybody else uses magic to fill in the holes. Legion "spaceships" are basically large pieces of stone kept aloft by burning souls, and the Vindicaar also runs on magic.

    For that matter, you might want to take a closer look at what Star Wars is about. It's a story about swordfighters and wizards(and swordfighting wizards) who just happen to live in a high-tech society. That's still Fantasy.
    Fantasy vs. SciFi isn't about techlevel. Futuristic doesn't mean SciFi, medieval doesn't make it Fantasy. It's what the story is about that makes the difference.

    What ruins your immersion is placing arbitrary limitations on what you deem acceptable or not on the setting, rather than evaluating whether it makes sense for them to have it given their backstory.
    Moving an entire city with magic is ridiculous as well. so is Jaina's floating ship during Battle for Lordaeron.

    "Magic is just undiscovered science". if everything is magic, then there's no limitation to how much futuristic Warcraft can be. I'll tell you what i don't want to see - "Pew Pew in space". Warcraft was originally Orcs in space, which was, basically, Orcs in space-marine suits, wielding guns, like in Starcraft. That's what i don't want to see in WoW.

    As for Goblins' and Gnomes' technology, their ways are somewhat "romanticized". their Tinker lifestyle is based on real-life, historical tinsmiths, metal-workers and engineers (just with added fantasy). Just like how Gilneans are based on Victorian-era England, and not the middle ages, the Goblins' Cartels are more like the 19th century Cartels. It doesn't have to be, specifically, from the Middle-ages, but anything from the past that can be romanticized as fantasy. Same with mythology - Halls of Valor (Valhalla) might be high in the sky, but it fits the fantasy setting of Warcraft. The problem arises when you take futuristic fantasy, like spaceships, laser beams and high-tech as core background to a fantasy game like Warcraft.

    As for Draenei, thankfully, they didn't get the full Protoss treatment and are, somewhat, primitive. as for Mechagnomes, although quite advanced, they have a 'mad scientist' fantasy to them.
    Last edited by username993720; 2020-11-08 at 06:35 PM.

  20. #200
    I am curious to what "medieval fantasy" OP is referring to, there has always been steampunk / space-related lore in the game has it not?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •