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  1. #61
    lol medieval?
    gnome->magitech
    tauren->you basically fight imperialist dwarf archeologists as one of the first thing, sort of US expansionism
    orc and troll->you play basically a barbarian in a sort of mongolian desert
    forsaken->they are in a sort of spooky tale and hard alchimist steampunk limbo

    this game is "medieval" only playing humans, even the nelves arent something really tolkienian

  2. #62
    I wish they used only portals instead of spaceships.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Just because Orcs deviate from Tolkien Orcs doesn't mean it's not medieval fantasy. What kind of warped argument is that?
    Not just Tolkein orcs, the whole concept of monsters in medieval fantasy. Medieval fantasy typically focuses around a strong good vs evil motif. Particularly around evil that just is. Monsters are monsters, and the forces of good fight and defeat them. WoW doesn't do that. It has a lot more competing interests from elemental planes to space demons to cosmic void entities, that are present in the game right from the start.

    Warcraft has, as a base set of lore before we even get to WoW, a bunch of extra-terrestrial and extra-planar creatures, especially ones that aren't just set up as obstacles for the forces of good, it's well outside the realm of medieval fantasy. Whilst they aren't always necessarily as strong, there are influences from multiple cultures, not the time restricted euro-centrism of traditional medieval fantasy. There's plenty pre-WoW and in base WoW that is far outside of the realm of medieval fantasy.

  4. #64
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    I think the space ship aspect of the Legion/Draenei is silly, but that's about it.

    When I hear people complain about a lack of medieval fantasy in WoW, I think they're trying to convey that they miss more grounded regional stories within Azeroth. Something akin to civil unrest with the Defias, or things like that. At this point in the lore everything keeps getting one upped (although BFA did dial it back some compared to Legion).

    It's sort of impossible to go back unless they did a full reset though of the entire universe though, which I don't see ever happening.

    To me Blizzard sort of went through a lot of their source material way too quickly and eliminated giant threats too quickly. A lot of the regional threats that are sometimes a departure from the main story of an expansion are well received, and some of the best content of the expansion (Ulduar, Throne of Thunder). Ulduar for example is it's own story in the context of Northerend, and a breath of fresh air over the undead theme that takes place over the entirety of the continent.

    People shouldn't be surprised though. Warcraft at a cursory glance is set within a medieval setting, but when you dig deeper it's basically a giant hodgepodge of a lot of different themes.

    I think a big problem is that they went through content too fast not knowing how popular WoW would be for a sustained period of time and it's reached a point where everything is mostly explained and there's a lack of mystery to be had. Old gods for example are way cooler when they lurk from the shadows and aren't overly explained, but in this modern era of Blizzard story telling, they aren't nearly as exciting or mysterious.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by deviantcultist View Post
    In other words, you miss Warcraft being simplistic enough in order for you to apply your own headcanon that it was a medieval setting. This is neither Tolkien nor is it old school DnD. Even in WC2 it was crystal clear that the setting was in a state of multi-dimensional war.

    In your own words, you want the setting to be "grounded" in order to get it back to the level you can headcanon things. Right now there are so many unresolved cosmic plots, be it the First Ones or Elune or the overarching Light vs Void war.

    Do you think it's fair to put that on hold in order to bring back some fast food "down-to-earth" content about dragons and "plain ol' sword and board"? I guess people saying "go play Classic" is the polite answer.
    Pretty much this.

    People constantly throw around their headcanon and revisionist history when it comes to Warcraft, and it's just boggling.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Sci-fi elements are one thing, but there is something seriously wrong when Warhammer 40k feels more medieval than Warcraft.
    WoW was always, even at its most over the top in Leigon, much closer to Warhammer Fantasy than 40k...
    They're (short for They are) describes a group of people. "They're/They are a nice bunch of guys." Their indicates that something belongs/is related to a group of people. "Their car was all out of fuel." There refers to a location. "Let's set up camp over there." There is also no such thing as "could/should OF". The correct way is: Could/should'VE, or could/should HAVE.
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  7. #67
    Not trying to start a debate (so many mmo players think only one mmo should be allowed to exist at a time) but check out New World when it comes out next year, looks like it could stratch a bit of that itch for a good medieval theme. I know I will be!

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shedaar View Post
    What buggers me the most is that Orcs had problems to build Orgrimmar and they almost got wiped out by centaurs, but several years have passed and PC's killed titan on other planet or even fought a demon on a space ship, but they still use swords etc.,

    How Stormwind/Orgrimmar aren't modernized to the current (spaceship, gnome/goblin/draenei/magic engineering) standards?
    Why Darkspear still live in tents?
    They didn't have problems building Orgrimmar (they had issues defending it, but then not really) nor did they almost get wiped out by centaurs (that was the tauren).

    Amazing sig, done by mighty Lokann

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by klogaroth View Post
    Not just Tolkein orcs, the whole concept of monsters in medieval fantasy. Medieval fantasy typically focuses around a strong good vs evil motif. Particularly around evil that just is. Monsters are monsters, and the forces of good fight and defeat them. WoW doesn't do that. It has a lot more competing interests from elemental planes to space demons to cosmic void entities, that are present in the game right from the start.

    Warcraft has, as a base set of lore before we even get to WoW, a bunch of extra-terrestrial and extra-planar creatures, especially ones that aren't just set up as obstacles for the forces of good, it's well outside the realm of medieval fantasy. Whilst they aren't always necessarily as strong, there are influences from multiple cultures, not the time restricted euro-centrism of traditional medieval fantasy. There's plenty pre-WoW and in base WoW that is far outside of the realm of medieval fantasy.
    Warcraft started out with the very same "good vs. evil motif" you mentioned. They subverted it later on, but the starting point was in the most archetypical medieval fantasy and the universe expanded from there on. Extra-planar creatures like demons are also not an eliminator when it comes to determining whether or not something is medieval fantasy (why would they be?). You're acting like this is some very clearly defined term but that's simply not the case. Medieval fantasy is a term used for pretty much any fantasy setting that incorporates some degree of medieval european systems of governance, warfare, norms, social structure etc. in order to evoke that period of human history. This is written all over Warcraft even after all the years of fucked up lore developments.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by ThrashMetalFtw View Post
    WoW was always, even at its most over the top in Leigon, much closer to Warhammer Fantasy than 40k...
    Warhammer Fantasy is more grounded than Warcraft. Yes, even with Skaven.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    Warcraft started out with the very same "good vs. evil motif" you mentioned. They subverted it later on, but the starting point was in the most archetypical medieval fantasy and the universe expanded from there on. Extra-planar creatures like demons are also not an eliminator when it comes to determining whether or not something is medieval fantasy (why would they be?). You're acting like this is some very clearly defined term but that's simply not the case. Medieval fantasy is a term used for pretty much any fantasy setting that incorporates some degree of medieval european systems of governance, warfare, norms, social structure etc. in order to evoke that period of human history. This is written all over Warcraft even after all the years of fucked up lore developments.
    That just means the term is effectively worthless because it's imprecise to the point it doesn't actually describe anything. The medieval period covers several centuries of vastly different systems of governance, warfare, norms and social structures, including major shifts through such developments as the rise and fall of empires, guns and later full-plate armour(yes, in that order) or the discovery of the Americas.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Nerovar View Post
    What the hell are you talking about? Fantasy Orcs were literally invented for and popularized by medieval fantasy settings. If you think that the center of the Warcraft world (the human kingdoms) isn't rooted in medieval fantasy then you're simply wrong. This is such an inrcedibly absurd claim.
    It seems some people in this thread don't understand what the fantasy part of medieval fantasy entails and think the genre is basically medieval fiction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Houle View Post
    LOL, all the people saying it never was "medieval". Yes, it always had some technology, but SPACESHIPS and lasers started appearing only since BC, and from then it only got worse. You didn't see the Legion using robots and spaceships in WC3 LMAO.

    It wasn't hardcore grounded like LotR for example, but it most certainly wasn't spaceships, and old god killing laser beams. The current Legion and Draenei could almost fit into a sci-fi story
    It wasn't as bad in the beginning, but the point still remains that it hasn't been purely medieval since Warcraft: Orcs & Humans. By Warcraft II we already had black powder explosives, submarines, and flying machines. So the only question is how much tech are you OK with in a medieval fantasy.

    Also, you had several grammatical errors, including punctuation and capitalization, so I went ahead and fixed those in the quoted section above.

    "Take the time to sit down and talk with your adversaries. You will learn something, and they will learn something from you. When two enemies are talking, they are not fighting. It's when the talking ceases that the ground becomes fertile for violence. So keep the conversation going."
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  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Shedaar View Post
    What buggers me the most is that Orcs had problems to build Orgrimmar and they almost got wiped out by centaurs, but several years have passed and PC's killed titan on other planet or even fought a demon on a space ship, but they still use swords etc.,

    How Stormwind/Orgrimmar aren't modernized to the current (spaceship, gnome/goblin/draenei/magic engineering) standards?
    Why Darkspear still live in tents?
    Because the world has no internal logic or consistency. The world will always behave how the writes demand it. If new troops/ressources are needed they are put into the world. After 30+years of constant warfare and several near-extinction events the population of everyone should be near a collapse, but that is not the case at all.

  15. #75
    It's been full on high sci-fi fantasy since TBC

    Don't worry though. Blizz has been hinting at the dragon isles

  16. #76
    I'm tired of the cosmic or better I should say I just don't like it..planes of existence, foundations of reality, cosmic elements, etc

    the words sound grand when you say them out loud but that alone doesn't make them cool or interesting or necessary

    they're kind of boring and I would probably find more impact and meaning and memorable experiences if things weren't so inter-dimensional/time-travely/outer space/etc, there's no relatability even for high fantasy and I guess no consequences, no stakes, it's like a comicbook movie sigh

    when they did and do dragons and castles and races of azeroth, magic and swords, and stories smaller compared to these 'grander' concepts, I care.

    I get there's always a bit of the 'grand' stuff in fantasy settings, but in wow lately and going forward that's all there is, and it feels forced.. to me it looks like they're expanding so far beyond just to make us think they're clever or exciting but really the grandness cosmic chart stuff they're going for isn't actually cool it only sounds cool.

    that's another thing, all this 'big bag' or 'unknowable/creation/perspective' stuff is kind of an illusion into getting us to think wow has more depth, when I think there's plenty depth without all that stuff.

    the chart stuff and mysteries are fine and even fun caught in glimpses and hints, but once we know all about everything and are involved with it, it loses it's ability to mystify and everything is ruined.

    I agree with the medieval longing. wow wasn't/isn't jus medieval, but I like the medievil and more grounded approach because the stories are more relatable in a way, and we actually care.

    space and time and dimensions and planes of existence and foundations of creation, elements of the cosmos, reality/unreality, are all cool words but they don't really make me care the way swords and horses and castles eurpoean influenced mythology, minotaurs and native american themes, scottish-inspired dwarves, vikings, chinese mythology, etc, all do.

    they went/go too big, for going too big's sake. not necessary. not meaningful nor memorable.
    Last edited by dunkl; 2020-10-31 at 09:36 PM.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by HadesBlessYou View Post
    it was only a matter of time before the scale of WoW got bigger and we ended up fighting inter-dimensional demons from outer space, traveling to different planets, and now even going into the afterlife.
    but i miss the grounded sense of medieval fantasy in WoW.
    sword and shields, dragons, magic, and the feel you get from (let's say) classic WoW.

    now.....before anybody says "go play Classic" .... that's not what i'm getting at.
    what i'm getting at is that, as WoW's story continues do you think it will ever be grounded again?
    i thought that BFA was an attempt to do that but looking back we see that wasn't the case.
    the stories lined up to be dealt with in the future point to this scale becoming bigger and more out there.
    Um, Orcs were an alien race invading us from another planet since 1994. Vanilla WoW had all the steampunk engineering the RTS games had plus teleporters, shrink rays, Ancient discs from our alien creators telling us how we came to be, holograms, and tons of other non medieval stuffs. Or did you choose to ignore all of that?

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    That just means the term is effectively worthless because it's imprecise to the point it doesn't actually describe anything. The medieval period covers several centuries of vastly different systems of governance, warfare, norms and social structures, including major shifts through such developments as the rise and fall of empires, guns and later full-plate armour(yes, in that order) or the discovery of the Americas.
    I guess that's just the way it is. We're not exactly talking about literary theory here. For the vast majority of people "medieval fantasy" will be knights in shiny armor vs. whatever is on the menu in terms of fantasy creatures. I mean, we're only talking about these definitions anyway because for some reason people feel the need to pivot away from the fact that this setting has changed pretty significantly over the years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    It seems some people in this thread don't understand what the fantasy part of medieval fantasy entails and think the genre is basically medieval fiction.
    Yeah, I honestly don't get it. Feels like these people are willfully misunderstand the point being made.

    "Hah, there were zeppelins and steamtanks back in Warcraft 3 even though the focus was clearly on the downfall of a human kingdom that looked as medieval as it gets. That's literally the same thing as having space ship invasions and high-tech battlesuits amidst filthy Zugzugs who don't even wear clothes and average Josephus in his footman armor and plots that involve time travel, space travel and going into the afterlife to beat the Totally-Not-Lich-King."
    Last edited by Nerovar; 2020-10-31 at 10:02 PM.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    I think the space ship aspect of the Legion/Draenei is silly, but that's about it.

    When I hear people complain about a lack of medieval fantasy in WoW, I think they're trying to convey that they miss more grounded regional stories within Azeroth. Something akin to civil unrest with the Defias, or things like that. At this point in the lore everything keeps getting one upped (although BFA did dial it back some compared to Legion).

    It's sort of impossible to go back unless they did a full reset though of the entire universe though, which I don't see ever happening.

    To me Blizzard sort of went through a lot of their source material way too quickly and eliminated giant threats too quickly. A lot of the regional threats that are sometimes a departure from the main story of an expansion are well received, and some of the best content of the expansion (Ulduar, Throne of Thunder). Ulduar for example is it's own story in the context of Northerend, and a breath of fresh air over the undead theme that takes place over the entirety of the continent.

    People shouldn't be surprised though. Warcraft at a cursory glance is set within a medieval setting, but when you dig deeper it's basically a giant hodgepodge of a lot of different themes.

    I think a big problem is that they went through content too fast not knowing how popular WoW would be for a sustained period of time and it's reached a point where everything is mostly explained and there's a lack of mystery to be had. Old gods for example are way cooler when they lurk from the shadows and aren't overly explained, but in this modern era of Blizzard story telling, they aren't nearly as exciting or mysterious.
    There is tons of that each expansion. Each zone has it's own local and regional stories that tie in to the greater overall expansion arch. Always has been. I feel like no one pays attention to the story or reads the quests. Because that is all there still.

  20. #80
    wow is only medieval from lvl 1 to 10 classic
    warcraft 1-2-3 was never medieval

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