Forsaken Dark Ranger/Undead Elf Discussion Megathread

[Vaedan]

The big difference between the two is that a dark ranger is a banshee who got back in their body and a death knight is directly risen as your race( could be anything now)

They are knights and a dark ranger doesnt have the same powers as a death knight. If you would say necromancer and death knight then I would agree with feeling the same in a way.

But since darkshore that line is even thinner since we saw Valkyr ress night elves instantly and become a dark ranger and not a death knight. They were also mind controlled for some reason.. so its quite vague atm.

Nathanos is also not a banshee in possession of his former body, yet he somehow gainer access to Dark Ranger class. In that logic, Forsaken or even humans should not be restricted from the class either.

As for racial selection for DR class... Yes, having another elf specific class would certainly cause some elf fatigue. What could actually help a bit is differentiate the concept a little. We could have traditional Dark Rangers in form of blood elves, night elves, Forsaken and humans, plus void elves being Dark Ranger offshoot called Umbral Rangers who use Void magic and Trolls having Dark Rangers in form of Shadow Hunters. My idea is for void elves and trolls having access to the class mechanicaly, but lorewise being something little different, as we've seen in case of tauren priests/paladin, who are actually sun druids dressed in cloth or plate.

[Alanar]

We definitely have more than what Demon Hunter had back then before it became a class. Also we don't know how the Dark Ranger concept may evolve before it becomes playable, just like how Arthas changed from his first DK iteration to his Lich King form.

We might not have that much yet, but we have much more than simply reskinning Hunter.

I agree, there are several sources to pull from. This is as much worth of a thread as for example a Tinker.

Both were hero units in war3 just like demon hunter was.
I think the appeal is there.

As of san'layn, they are cool and all, but I have a feeling the Venthyr are replacing them as the wow vampires and the San layn will just be what is it.

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Nathanos is also not a banshee in possession of his former body, yet he somehow gainer access to Dark Ranger class. In that logic, Forsaken or even humans should not be restricted from the class either.

As for racial selection for DR class... Yes, having another elf specific class would certainly cause some elf fatigue. What could actually help a bit is differentiate the concept a little. We could have traditional Dark Rangers in form of blood elves, night elves, Forsaken and humans, plus void elves being Dark Ranger offshoot called Umbral Rangers who use Void magic and Trolls having Dark Rangers in form of Shadow Hunters. My idea is for void elves and trolls having access to the class mechanicaly, but lorewise being something little different, as we've seen in case of tauren priests/paladin, who are actually sun druids dressed in cloth or plate.

Nathanos is weird that he was just a regular forsaken before Legion. He had a special treatment with some kind of ritual. So yea I agree forsaken and humans could be DR as well.

I think it would be cool to not make it an elf only thing, but it would require some additional lore or explanation in game or atleast I would like that.

Maybe they were trying at the time to be a differnt kind of priest or paladin. Its the same crusaders and inquisitors in the scarlet crusade altho they are still paladin and priest.

Shadow hunter is a difficult one because ita a troll only thing. They could go all out and make them visually differnt (troll, void elvea in your example) but funtion the same.

Its the same as paladin steeds look differnt per race, those are cool things. Visually they could do so much more.

[Ardenaso]

The current undead high elves that are members of the Forsaken were probably all resurrected by Arthas as part of the Scourge and later regained their free will.

wasn't Velonara revived by Val'kyr after WotLK?

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I want to talk about this, but there’s literally no point to it because this thread has a bias to it at the start. Dark Ranger options should be Blood Elf customizations. Full stop.

the problem is that undead elf Paladin and undead elf demon hunter is just wrong on many levels

[Alanar]

wasn't Velonara revived by Val'kyr after WotLK?

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the problem is that undead elf Paladin and undead elf demon hunter is just wrong on many levels

I agree, this is defo a problem if we are to give blood elves this option. It doesnt make sense in some cases.

Thats why I think a dark ranger class in the future would solve a couple of lore heavy issues. They could go all out with that.

So how else could we fix that issue, without stepping on to many toes?

[shoc]

I agree, this is defo a problem if we are to give blood elves this option. It doesnt make sense in some cases.

Thats why I think a dark ranger class in the future would solve a couple of lore heavy issues. They could go all out with that.

So how else could we fix that issue, without stepping on to many toes?

What if Dark Ranger replaced Sub Rogue? Combat got turned into Outlaw for similar thematic reasons, and similarly, Survival Hunter was turned into a melee spec.

It would have stealth, dark magic-themed abilities, they'd wear leather (rogue transmog options would better fit Dark Rangers). They'd use ranged weapons primarily but still have a couple of melee utilities as they are still Rogues.

Rogues would still have stabby stabby ninja themes with Assassination Rogue, and it wouldn't be a whole class in and of itself. I very much dislike the idea of Dark Ranger as its own class because the concept is only like one-fifth as interesting as Demon Hunters and they could barely squeeze 1.5 specs out of that idea.

[Triceron]

The question is if there should be new class in WoW. DH already have only two specs and they can fullfil two roles in the party. Dark Rangers could really be only DPS, so design space is even more limited for them. Sure, there is no stealthed ranged spec atm, but that's the only unique thing I can come with. While I'm not opposed to the idea of new class, I think we already have enough of them and I'd be actually more interested in class skins for existing classes/specs, like Purifier/Inquisitor for shadow priests, Priestess of the Moon, troll headhunter or Dark Rangers. That is a feature with potential, if handled well.

Yeah, I guess the whole new class thing is a whole discussion of itself. I personally think there is plenty of room, but of course there are always issues with bloat or lacking design or whatever. I'm one of the few who thinks more classes the better, but the game right now is so set in its ways and the players have such specific expectations for PVE and balance that it's hard for them to maneuver.

I've always felt we have been needing some sort of Undead healing theme in the game, and Necromancer or Dark Ranger could have filled in for that. Dark Ranger wasn't exactly a Healer archetype to begin with, but they did have the Life Drain ability in WC3 and are closely tied to Banshees, and in BFA Darkshore Warfronts the Banshee was used as the Healer unit. I kind of feel there's some untapped potential there to be used, maybe something more flavoured with what we will learn or have access to in Shadowlands; some anima-based healing and such.

To bring it back to the races, I'm not opposed to having undead elf options, but we will have to see where Blizzard goes with all this. There doesn't seem to be any internal consistency to what they choose to make an Allied Race, being that they chose Zandalari but not Amani despite the Reventusk being long-time allies of the Horde, or choosing Dark Iron but deciding to lump Wildhammers with the basic Dwarf customization. I'd like them to be an allied race, but I don't see there being much feasibility at this moment given that the one class that would make most sense out of it isn't even accessible to us (I personally do not consider Hunter class representative of Dark Rangers any more than it would represent say Priestess of the Moon)

[Alanar]

What if Dark Ranger replaced Sub Rogue? Combat got turned into Outlaw for similar thematic reasons, and similarly, Survival Hunter was turned into a melee spec.

It would have stealth, dark magic-themed abilities, they'd wear leather (rogue transmog options would better fit Dark Rangers). They'd use ranged weapons primarily but still have a couple of melee utilities as they are still Rogues.

Rogues would still have stabby stabby ninja themes with Assassination Rogue, and it wouldn't be a whole class in and of itself. I very much dislike the idea of Dark Ranger as its own class because the concept is only like one-fifth as interesting as Demon Hunters and they could barely squeeze 1.5 specs out of that idea.

It felt like they were realy short on ideas with demon hunters, but I agree with their vision that with havoc they went all out on the Dh fantasy with Havoc, next the tank spec there isn't all that much to pull from to create 2 completely unqiue enough dps specs next to the tank spec, it would be to stretched out.

I actually like your suggestion ,but right now I have a hard time feelingg it.. I never pictured it to be within the rogue class. I still think it's possible altho I see the dark ranger as a ranged archtype who has the option to throw in a couple of melee abillities, not just be a melee spec I see them almost like Legolas.. (shit..realy don't want to link him to the dark ranger class, but it's to late now) Hes arrows were out, but he still had the option to use those 2 1 handers.
I still believe there is room for more tho, while writing this I was thinking.. wouldn't it be cool if Dark rangers were the first to realy use 2 differnt weapontypes as there unique thing. This could be explored into rotational abillities where a finnisher could be with daggers while we have a slow only useable by a bow or what ever.

There is still the whole thing, you know not every rogue will like this or don't touch my spec type of things.
I agree it will be hard to make 3 or even 2 very unique specs, that fullfill the fantasy, without stretching it out to much and what other unique flavor could the Dark ranger bring? There are quite a few suggestions being thrown arround so I am interested in other ideas.

I opt the idea to feed on the banshee vibe, but as Vaedan mentioned, it's not that dark rangers can't excist without it. Nathanos like he said is the perfect example. Sylvanas without the banshee part would be realy dull and it kinda shows with Nathanos.. So Banshee form would add an additional flavor to the Dark ranger wich it needs to make it interesting enough for more then just us who like it.

[Garfurion]

wasn't Velonara revived by Val'kyr after WotLK?

No, She was killed by Arthas defending Quel'Thalas and ressurected by Sylvanas. It's unclear exactly when and if Sylvanas was free from Arthas at that point in time.

During Siege of Orgrimmar Sylvanas suggests to Lor'themar that she can resurrect Blood Elves:


Sylvanas Windrunner says: I can raise your dead, Regent Lord. Your rangers can fight again.

Lor'themar Theron says: Sylvanas! You will leave our corpses alone, or I will deal with you here and now.

Sylvanas Windrunner says: I'm sorry to see your lack of commitment... What of the human corpses?

Lor'themar Theron says: ...well, I suppose that's between you and the Alliance, isn't it?


This seems to me like a good explanation why we didn't see Sylvanas mass ressurect Horde corpses even when she was leading the horde and most Forsaken are former humans.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

@Garfurion I pretty sure Sylvanus is implying she'll use Val'kyr to raise Blood elves. Velonara first showed up in Cataclysm, during the time Sylvanus was raising new Forsaken.

[Garfurion]

@Garfurion I pretty sure Sylvanus is implying she'll use Val'kyr to raise Blood elves. Velonara first showed up in Cataclysm, during the time Sylvanus was raising new Forsaken.

Velonara first showed up in Cataclysm in Scarlet Monestary.

You can see her die in the quest The First to Fall

This is what Velonara says in the Trueshot lodge if you bring 13 black roses from Death Hunter Moorgoth:

I was a maiden, pure and true. A young ranger in service of Silvermoon, betrothed to the nobleman of my dreams. Then Arthas came. I fell in battle as the mad prince cut a black scar through the land I loved. But at least I was at peace, I suppose. For a time. Until the Banshee Queen pulled me back from beyond and damned my soul into her service. You'll have to pardon me if I have little patience for imbeciles like Moorgoth, who take for granted what they have and think to find happiness in pain.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Give Dark Ranger class.

No matter how you look at it, reskining Hunter won't give us Dark Ranger. It isn't random that Legion had talents dedicated to it that got removed after.

But that's the thing, even the Legion Hunter Campaign counted Dark Rangers as part of their numbers. IMO it seems far more likely to have more DR flavor un hunters than DR becoming a class on their own, specially this late in the history of the game.

As for how to implement Undead/San'layn elves, I do think the most efficient way is to do it through Blood Elves rather than forsaken. It's already so currently, it's just about making NPC options playable and meets expectations, instead, to do so through forsaken would require a lot of actual development. It would really be one of those things where the easiest choice would be what would make the people that want undead elves most happy.

As for the whole Undead Elf Paladin possibility, there's two options; just accept it as gameplay/story segregation -like shadow LF priests, holy VE priests, etc- or just lock undead skins from paladins -just like DH and DK have their skins locked for every other class-

Overall, implementation of Undead Elves through Blood Elves would be the most efficient alternative; if you accept that High Elves are implemented though Void Elves even when they have major differences on their extremes, then this would be the same.

[Triceron]

But that's the thing, even the Legion Hunter Campaign counted Dark Rangers as part of their numbers. IMO it seems far more likely to have more DR flavor un hunters than DR becoming a class on their own, specially this late in the history of the game.

If thats the case then Blizzard needs to do more to just make it a reality, or leave it be as a separate class. The muddling they're doing right now is just unacceptable as a legitimate Dark Ranger.

Its on the level of giving Warlocks Metamorphosis and glyph of Demon Hunting and further tying the two classes with Green Fire quest. Just give the Warlocks a Demon Hunter spec or make a Demon Hunter class, not leave it sitting in between.

My personal suggestion? 'Class skin' it. Treat it like Allied Races and take existing classes and retheme them while keeping the core gameplay. Add variance through special talent choices (maybe 4th talent option or selective changes of talents). Add new spell effects and heirlooms to support them. This way we can greatly expand the amount of classes without affecting balance one bit. These class variants don't have to take all specs from the core class either, it can probably be flexible like how DH have fewer specs than normal. This way there can be more focus on customization given to these variants, at the cost of less flexibility in available specs.

You want Gnome and Goblin Tinkers? Retheme the Druid class into a Technology theme. Forms = Mech suits, Sun and Moon spells = Rockets and Lasers. This opens the Druid class to Gnomes and Goblins without breaking lore, giving them a proper theme that fits, all without bloating the game with multiple new specs of gameplay to balance. Any Tinker specific abilities can be added as unique talents to this Class variant, similar to how Goblin and Gnome Hunters have unique access to Mech pet types.

[Fantazma]

Lets talk about FACTS??

YES:

The three most popular (and coolest) "heroes" of warcraft are: Arthas, Illidan and Sylvannas.
- Arthas is a Death Knight: Blizzard made this class playable.
- Illidan is a Demon Hunter: Blizzard made this class playable.
- Sylvannas is a Dark Ranger: Blizzard .... wtf?

Other points:

- Sylvannas was the protagonist of the last 3 cinematics of wow expansion.
- Sylvannas is the most searched wow character on google.
- Sylvannas is the character that sold the most statues or action figures.

The facts above prove that many fans (and the developers themselves) love the Dark Ranger named Sylvannas!!

Why did Arthas (DK) and Illidan (DH) have their classes becoming playable and Sylvannas (Dark Ranger) not yet??????

Even after the above facts, you (stubborn) still think that Dark Rangers is a totally non-sense idea.
So how about the facts below:

Death Knights: Several races become "undead", with blue bright eyes, and acquire skills based on the warcraft hero: Arthas.
Dark Rangers: Several races become "undead", with red bright eyes, and acquire skills based on the warcraft hero: Sylvannas.
We alread have DKs, right?
What is missing? ❤

[Triceron]

The three most popular (and coolest) "heroes" of warcraft are: Arthas, Illidan and Sylvannas.
- Arthas is a Death Knight: Blizzard made this class playable.
- Illidan is a Demon Hunter: Blizzard made this class playable.
- Sylvannas is a Dark Ranger: Blizzard .... wtf?

Excuse me? Sylvanas?

I think you mean DEATHWING.

Blizzard, MAKE THIS CLASS PLAYABLE!

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

If thats the case then Blizzard needs to do more to just make it a reality, or leave it be as a separate class. The muddling they're doing right now is just unacceptable as a legitimate Dark Ranger.

Its on the level of giving Warlocks Metamorphosis and glyph of Demon Hunting and further tying the two classes with Green Fire quest. Just give the Warlocks a Demon Hunter spec or make a Demon Hunter class, not leave it sitting in between.

My personal suggestion? 'Class skin' it. Treat it like Allied Races and take existing classes and retheme them while keeping the core gameplay. Add variance through special talent choices (maybe 4th talent option or selective changes of talents). Add new spell effects and heirlooms to support them. This way we can greatly expand the amount of classes without affecting balance one bit. These class variants don't have to take all specs from the core class either, it can probably be flexible like how DH have fewer specs than normal. This way there can be more focus on customization given to these variants, at the cost of less flexibility in available specs.

You want Gnome and Goblin Tinkers? Retheme the Druid class into a Technology theme. Forms = Mech suits, Sun and Moon spells = Rockets and Lasers. This opens the Druid class to Gnomes and Goblins without breaking lore, giving them a proper theme that fits, all without bloating the game with multiple new specs of gameplay to balance. Any Tinker specific abilities can be added as unique talents to this Class variant, similar to how Goblin and Gnome Hunters have unique access to Mech pet types.

Class skins feel like they could be such a cool idea; they could borrow from the RPG and call them "Prestige Classes". Basing them out of existing gameplay only requires for the gameplay to be re-dressed to portray a different fantasy. Just Like HotS does it for its different heroes.

It gives us customization flavor while not overtaxing the need for class balance.

Also specific agreement on the "Druid" reskined as a Tinker; there have been threads about similar ideas, particularly about Void Paladins, and Undead Elves; specifically San'layn, with druidic forms treated as Vampiric shapeshifting -We might never get Sanlayn tbh, but Venthyr tho!-

Personally I also saw it as a way to give Lightforged Draenei druids so they actually bring something different than regular Draenei, with that idea basically being a lightforged Tinker/Artificer using light constructs.

Expanding Class/Race combos while still maintaining cultural identity would be such a neat idea, and they could literally start by reframing Tauren Paladins as "Sunwalkwers"

[Triceron]

Class skins feel like they could be such a cool idea; they could borrow from the RPG and call them "Prestige Classes". Basing them out of existing gameplay only requires for the gameplay to be re-dressed to portray a different fantasy. Just Like HotS does it for its different heroes.

It gives us customization flavor while not overtaxing the need for class balance.

Also specific agreement on the "Druid" reskined as a Tinker; there have been threads about similar ideas, particularly about Void Paladins, and Undead Elves; specifically San'layn, with druidic forms treated as Vampiric shapeshifting -We might never get Sanlayn tbh, but Venthyr tho!-

Personally I also saw it as a way to give Lightforged Draenei druids so they actually bring something different than regular Draenei, with that idea basically being a lightforged Tinker/Artificer using light constructs.

Expanding Class/Race combos while still maintaining cultural identity would be such a neat idea, and they could literally start by reframing Tauren Paladins as "Sunwalkwers"

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean.

There's so much untapped potential, and it would help bridge in more of the racial culture we need that is absolutely missing from all the generic race/class combinations.

How about a proper Troll Witchdoctor? A Blood Elf Spellbreaker? Night Elf Warden? There's plenty of these kind of combinations that could be tapped into. It's far less work than say having to make new skills and test balance every ability and rotation and make sure it falls in line with every other spec in the game.

[dunkl]

no skins, we just need each race's version of their art to reflect their culture.

Think how thematically awesome our races would feel if, for tranquility;

a highmountain tauren raising a single eagle feather into the air or blowing a melody through a carved pine flute, to call down a brisk whirlwind of fragrant mountain winds from the their forested homeland, refreshing and inspiriting the falling

vs

a night elf calling the calm and of night, a serene spot of shade made restful by little lanterns or starlit grass, to the wild yet nurturing woodland tunes of crickets chirping and distant cats growling, or to a soothing windchime or to the dreamy plucks of a harp.

And for effloresces;

perhaps a mulgore tauren tosses a seed at the target location and then keels prayfully, gently beats a drum or plays a flute as wheat or a small meadow or patch of spring/autumn grasses grow upward, glittering in the sunny day

whereas

perhaps a night elf places a little lantern or seed on the ground from which a patch of woodland grass and mushrooms grow, or calls an owl from the shade who softly hoots overhead encircling the falling from above who are greeted by a moonbeam which heals those within it.

Think how thematically awesome our races would feel and how connected we’d be to them should their aesthetics prove that their spells and abilities are truly an art honed among their people, from within their culture.

Being thoughtful and crafting a cultures’ unique version of their art will make our races and their classes especially meaningful.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Yeah, that's exactly what I mean.

There's so much untapped potential, and it would help bridge in more of the racial culture we need that is absolutely missing from all the generic race/class combinations.

How about a proper Troll Witchdoctor? A Blood Elf Spellbreaker? Night Elf Warden? There's plenty of these kind of combinations that could be tapped into. It's far less work than say having to make new skills and test balance every ability and rotation and make sure it falls in line with every other spec in the game.

no skins, we just need each race's version of their art to reflect their culture.

Think how thematically awesome our races would feel if, for tranquility;

a highmountain tauren raising a single eagle feather into the air or blowing a melody through a carved pine flute, to call down a brisk whirlwind of fragrant mountain winds from the their forested homeland, refreshing and inspiriting the falling

vs

a night elf calling the calm and of night, a serene spot of shade made restful by little lanterns or starlit grass, to the wild yet nurturing woodland tunes of crickets chirping and distant cats growling, or to a soothing windchime or to the dreamy plucks of a harp.

And for effloresces;

perhaps a mulgore tauren tosses a seed at the target location and then keels prayfully, gently beats a drum or plays a flute as wheat or a small meadow or patch of spring/autumn grasses grow upward, glittering in the sunny day

whereas

perhaps a night elf places a little lantern or seed on the ground from which a patch of woodland grass and mushrooms grow, or calls an owl from the shade who softly hoots overhead encircling the falling from above who are greeted by a moonbeam which heals those within it.

Think how thematically awesome our races would feel and how connected we’d be to them should their aesthetics prove that their spells and abilities are truly an art honed among their people, from within their culture.

Being thoughtful and crafting a cultures’ unique version of their art will make our races and their classes especially meaningful.

I don't think these two ideas are exclusionary of each other, as they respond to different needs; one the need to represent more "vocations" than the 12 class archetypes, and the other to reflect the culture of each race on their available classes. I do agree there's indeed there's an overlap.

But I also do think that by adding a racial flavor to a race's class selection, you are also removing the "generic-ness" out of them, and I do think a lot of players appreciate the room to fulfill their own fantasy, so I do believe that either method -unless it's adding a new class/race combo- has to be opt in.

As well, to create specific skins (or Prestige classes) for every race/class combo could be daunting, so maybe a more generalized approach rather than a race specific one would serve better in terms of options.

Say, "Sun Warrior" as a Paladin Skin that both Tauren and Zandalari can use, or "Warden" and "Lunar Priest" for NE and NB Rogues and Priests -but still each race woulc get an specific name (Prelate/Sunwalker for example)

What would a "Spellbreaker" be though? That's one of those archetypes that maybe do not fit with any present classes beyond superficial aesthetics (Prot Warrior/Paladin?)

[Triceron]

What would a "Spellbreaker" be though? That's one of those archetypes that maybe do not fit with any present classes beyond superficial aesthetics (Prot Warrior/Paladin?)

I personally see it as an Arcane themed Paladin. Prot already has a lot of mechanics built in that could support such a feature.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I personally see it as an Arcane themed Paladin. Prot already has a lot of mechanics built in that could support such a feature.

I could see that working tbh. I would change the "Avenger's Shield" for a Glaive Toss for flavor tho, besides themeing the bubbles and CD's around arcane. Spellbreaker IMO still feels like it could be a something 4th spec, I still think their flavor could lend itself to a new set of mechanics, but I guess one can say that about most "Class Skins"