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  1. #21
    But we know that mortal souls don’t naturally go to the shadowlands. Kyrians ferry them there. As far as we know demons don’t need help returning to the twisting nether. Could be the shadowlands is actually blocking the natural path of dead mortal souls. Not saying that’s a bad thing. Could be the natural path for the dead is to return to feed the light or void who are trying to regain the strength that dispersed when the multiverse was created.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruargh
    I'm baffled that something this simple can be so hard for some people... I guess we can't blame blizzard for dumbing down the game any longer, because apparently it very much needed :

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    There's literally 2 realms where they come from that exist outside the universe. They're the only 2 forces in existence that do exist outside the universe and because of that, life and death, don't mean the same thing to them. They are "Outside the cycle" which is something that's been pointed out many times.

    The Light and Void beings are literally foreign cosmic parasites, especially the Old Gods and their minions who's creation is that to corrupt and make way for the Void Lords into the universe.
    How do you know the Light exists outside the cosmos? Where is the source for this?

    It's hilarious how you call them "parasites" when they are literally the two fundamental forces that gave birth to the cosmos. And if you want to believe the new retcon, they are forces created by the First Ones, just like Death. So No, they are not parasites at all, and you have yet to prove how Denathrius is innocent.

  3. #23
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    Are the demons living souls technically? Are they brought there alive or could this be something like they're killed and the brokers snatch their souls up? I know Demons naturally go back to the Twisting Nether, but if something took it, they could bring it to the Shadowlands?
    The demons in Maldraxxus are brought bodily into the Shadowlands, so yes, I'd say their souls are intact based on the substance of the ability text itself. Demons don't naturally go to the Shadowlands on death, though; they're bring brought in via external means (via the Broker's containment vessels) - the same way Naaru are brought to the Shadowlands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    How do you know the Light exists outside the cosmos? Where is the source for this?
    The "cosmos" would be traditionally defined as the physical universe's outer space, the universe containing the planets and galaxies and so forth. The metacosmos (or metacosm) would be the entirety of the realms of Warcraft, including those of the Light, Void, the Twisting Nether, and the Shadowlands. These exist above or beyond the cosmos itself, higher (or lower) planes of being separate from the cosmos.
    "HUMAN BEINGS MAKE LIFE SO INTERESTING. DO YOU KNOW, THAT IN A UNIVERSE SO FULL OF WONDERS, THEY HAVE MANAGED TO INVENT BOREDOM." - Death, Hogfather

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    Though I don't disagree with you, though we don't know if that's true either, what's the point?
    Steve Danuser (however you spell it) confirmed in an interview that cosmic forces return to their realms when defeated in reality.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    How do you know the Light exists outside the Universe?(fix that for ya) Where is the source for this?
    Ok, so you keep taking something said and switching it around, most likely intentional so lets lay do some hard facts that you can't.

    The Great Dark Beyond which is also known as the physical universe, is near infinite realm with stars and worlds.

    The Light and Shadow(void) are realms outside the borders of reality, outside the physical universe. Not inside it like a pocket dimension.

    The Light and Void beings, which is what we're talking about are from these realms and enter the physical universe and according to you, are trying to take souls from the physical universe into their realm.
    It's hilarious how you call them "parasites" when they are literally the two fundamental forces that gave birth to the cosmos.
    Ahh you did it twice in one post, we're definitely talking about light beings and void beings
    Old Gods and their minions return to the Void, the Light and their creations return to the Light
    I mean you literally say this, so you know you're trying to pull a strawman at this point lol

    I really shouldn't reply anymore after this point, but ill address the rest and call it quits after that.

    And if you want to believe the new retcon, they are forces created by the First Ones, just like Death. So No, they are not parasites at all, and you have yet to prove how Denathrius is innocent.
    Not sure what the retcon is, but are you implying the first ones(who we know little of) created the Light and Void? Cause that is 99% likely to not be true, not even close to being true.
    Also i dont care if Denathrius is guilty or innocent, the Light and Void are hostile foreigners who are interfering and assaulting the physical universe of which they dont belong. I doubt he ventured outside the physical universe and shit on their lawn.

    nor they are considered part of it? I grow tired of your unsubstantiated talk about "foreign forces".

    Also, the only thing creepy here is you constantly belittling Light and Void for being "foreign" and presuming they have less rights and legitimacy than mortals.

    And you know that EVERY cosmic force has their own afterlife like the Light and Void, right? Yes, even the titans return to their Arcane afterlife.
    just saw you added this to your last post

    You my dude are a weird one and trolling hard at this point. Have a good one, enjoying this weird arguing against facts for the sake of arguing with some other people

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The demons in Maldraxxus are brought bodily into the Shadowlands, so yes, I'd say their souls are intact based on the substance of the ability text itself. Demons don't naturally go to the Shadowlands on death, though; they're bring brought in via external means (via the Broker's containment vessels) - the same way Naaru are brought to the Shadowlands.
    ahh ok, i haven't paid any attention to Maldraxxus' storyline so I didn't know about this until today. I guess "living" souls are brought to the Shadowlands often then, before us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Inoculate View Post
    Steve Danuser (however you spell it) confirmed in an interview that cosmic forces return to their realms when defeated in reality.
    ahh ok, I thought so, just never going to the void or light to check on them or getting return visits made me wonder.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The Brokers bring extraplanar opponents for the Necrolords to whet their teeth on, so to speak.
    The Brokers are an interesting race... they feel much more powerful and influential than they appear. They are also pretty similar to the Arbiter herself - could it be that they were created by her, be her design, similar to Denathrius and the Venthyr?

    Also, they seem to be having much in common with the Ethereals.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The demons in Maldraxxus are brought bodily into the Shadowlands, so yes, I'd say their souls are intact based on the substance of the ability text itself. Demons don't naturally go to the Shadowlands on death, though; they're bring brought in via external means (via the Broker's containment vessels) - the same way Naaru are brought to the Shadowlands.

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    The "cosmos" would be traditionally defined as the physical universe's outer space, the universe containing the planets and galaxies and so forth. The metacosmos (or metacosm) would be the entirety of the realms of Warcraft, including those of the Light, Void, the Twisting Nether, and the Shadowlands. These exist above or beyond the cosmos itself, higher (or lower) planes of being separate from the cosmos.
    So then even the Elemental Planes and similar pocket dimensions are not part of the physical cosmos? Since mortals can't normally reach these places.

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    Ok, so you keep taking something said and switching it around, most likely intentional so lets lay do some hard facts that you can't.
    Did... did you not read literally all of my past replies, where I asked you to prove Light and Void are considered foreigners?

    The Light and Void beings, which is what we're talking about are from these realms and enter the physical universe and according to you, are trying to take souls from the physical universe into their realm.
    1) Many Light and Void beings were created in the cosmos. The minions of the Old Gods, the naaru (specifically described as beings created during the ordering of the cosmos), etc.
    2) So do you also think that orcs are foreign garbage that deserve no rights and should be wiped out?

    Ahh you did it twice in one post, we're definitely talking about light beings and void beings
    N... No? We are talking about the Light and Void, of which Light and Void beings are part of.

    I mean you literally say this, so you know you're trying to pull a strawman at this point lol
    Huh, you know I have been talking about the Light and Void in general terms since my first reply to this thread, right?

    Not sure what the retcon is, but are you implying the first ones(who we know little of) created the Light and Void? Cause that is 99% likely to not be true, not even close to being true.
    No, that is 100% true and already confirmed in the Shadowlands collector edition.

    Also i dont care if Denathrius is guilty or innocent, the Light and Void are hostile foreigners who are interfering and assaulting the physical universe of which they dont belong. I doubt he ventured outside the physical universe and shit on their lawn.
    Then I suppose you'd have no problem with exterminating every single orc for being a hostile foreigner who is interfering with Azeroth, where they don't belong.
    Just saw you added this to your last post

    You my dude are a weird one and trolling hard at this point. Have a good one, enjoying this weird arguing against facts for the sake of arguing with some other peopl
    1) I didn't add it at the end.
    2) You're the one who started this tangent.
    3) Your constant insistence on the fact that they are "foreigners" and thus "wrong" IS creepy.

    Your only actual "argument" against Z'rali's statement was this:

    "She's a Light foreigner so she's wrong."

    That's literally everything you said in relation to my argument. You didn't try to disprove her claim once, instead you tried to defend Denathrius and the side of Death with the flawed argument that Light and Void have less legitimacy than they do (according to who?? The First Ones? Who ALSO created the Void and Light, allegedly?).
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-11-06 at 07:17 PM.

  8. #28
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    So then even the Elemental Planes and similar pocket dimensions are not part of the physical cosmos? Since mortals can't normally reach these places.
    That I'm not really sure of. The Elemental Planes were created by the Titans from terrestrial matter - quite literally gouged out of Azeroth (as can be seen in Northrend in the Storm Peaks and Ulduar), then secreted into constructed realities to create a place for the rampaging Elementals in the course of the ordering of Azeroth. They're not technically part of the physical universe, but neither are they natural parts of the metacosm, so I'd say the slot firmly into the "other" distinction. They're connected to Azeroth on the fundamental level, and even accessible to a degree - so whether they lie within the cosmos, so to speak, or outside of it in their own distinct tier is debateable.
    "HUMAN BEINGS MAKE LIFE SO INTERESTING. DO YOU KNOW, THAT IN A UNIVERSE SO FULL OF WONDERS, THEY HAVE MANAGED TO INVENT BOREDOM." - Death, Hogfather

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    That I'm not really sure of. The Elemental Planes were created by the Titans from terrestrial matter - quite literally gouged out of Azeroth (as can be seen in Northrend in the Storm Peaks and Ulduar), then secreted into constructed realities to create a place for the rampaging Elementals in the course of the ordering of Azeroth. They're not technically part of the physical universe, but neither are they natural parts of the metacosm, so I'd say the slot firmly into the "other" distinction. They're connected to Azeroth on the fundamental level, and even accessible to a degree - so whether they lie within the cosmos, so to speak, or outside of it in their own distinct tier is debateable.
    And what do you think of the Old Gods' realms like Ny'alotha or the Realms of Y'Shaarj that Garrosh travelled to? They are described as visions of the dark future, twisted projections of the Black Empire, so are they like part of the Caverns of Time in some way, are they located somewhere in the time-space continuum like AU Draenor or...?

  10. #30
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TickTickTick View Post
    The Brokers are an interesting race... they feel much more powerful and influential than they appear. They are also pretty similar to the Arbiter herself - could it be that they were created by her, be her design, similar to Denathrius and the Venthyr?

    Also, they seem to be having much in common with the Ethereals.
    The Brokers are definitely up to something, and hints of their agenda can be found all over Oribos via the snippets of conversation you can catch them in. Not sure about their connection to the Arbiter, but they're very similar to and share the same basic role and philosophy of the Ethereals. I think the Brokers are naturally energy beings who've assumed a more familiar appearance to work with the Stewards of Oribos and the Azerothians who've made their way into the Shadowlands. Interestingly, the Brokers seem to have had some kind of foreknowledge of what was going to happen before even the Stewards of Oribos were aware of it. They definitely know more than they're letting on.
    "HUMAN BEINGS MAKE LIFE SO INTERESTING. DO YOU KNOW, THAT IN A UNIVERSE SO FULL OF WONDERS, THEY HAVE MANAGED TO INVENT BOREDOM." - Death, Hogfather

  11. #31
    The Patient lolcats121's Avatar
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    I just assumed the brokers captured them for the necrolords to fight in the arena.
    Podslight - Aerie Peak US

  12. #32
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    And what do you think of the Old Gods' realms like Ny'alotha or the Realms of Y'Shaarj that Garrosh travelled to? They are described as visions of the dark future, twisted projections of the Black Empire, so are they like part of the Caverns of Time in some way, are they located somewhere in the time-space continuum like AU Draenor or...?
    I think the Horrific Visions, Ny'alotha, and the Realm(s) of Y'Shaarj are just projections - not really realms or planes in and of themselves but more like corrupted or aberrant timeways or timelines, so to speak. They're real to a degree, as in if you're there the things in them can hurt you, but their reality isn't self-sustaining and requires continual expenditure to maintain. Just like with the Horrific Visions and Ny'alotha itself, when N'Zoth was destroyed they collapsed in on themselves and winked out of existence - the power sustaining them having been removed. N'Zoth's whole plan was to co-opt the Origination System in Uldum and overwrite Azeroth with Ny'alotha, giving N'Zoth's mad dream true existence and making it self-sustaining as it would replace our reality, the true timeline (or at least insofar as Azeroth is concerned).
    "HUMAN BEINGS MAKE LIFE SO INTERESTING. DO YOU KNOW, THAT IN A UNIVERSE SO FULL OF WONDERS, THEY HAVE MANAGED TO INVENT BOREDOM." - Death, Hogfather

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    ahh ok, I thought so, just never going to the void or light to check on them or getting return visits made me wonder.
    Yeah, I'm sure they just built up AT LEAST five new expansions with us visiting all these new realms (life, order, chaos, light and void) PLUS the elemental planes were changed to be as big, if not bigger than, the forces in the same interview.

    Whole read here for those interested.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...e_danuser_and/

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Inoculate View Post
    Yeah, I'm sure they just built up AT LEAST five new expansions with us visiting all these new realms (life, order, chaos, light and void) PLUS the elemental planes were changed to be as big, if not bigger than, the forces in the same interview.

    Whole read here for those interested.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comment...e_danuser_and/
    So if you think about other magical creatures and think what happens when you kill them on Azeroth, where do they go? There's the potential for things like that to kind of happen. We try to have this cosmology of the way things work, and that's something that you can apply to other things. And I think the old gods are an interesting case where, you know, we've defeated one version of them and who knows if another manifestation will eventually take place
    was there anything else besides this statement that is full of not real certainties?

  15. #35
    The principal powers in Cosmology, do they also go to the Shadowlands? Or do they go back to their own place? Like the Burning Crusade goes to Twisting Nether, where would a Naaru go?

    So that same rule that we established in Legion for a being of an influence goes back if it’s killed in the mortal realm or some other realm, it goes back to it’s home realm, it’s home plane. That’s true for demons and that’s true for other forces as well.


    So if Naarus are fighting in the mortal realm for example, a Naaru is struck down; its essence would go back to the realm of Light and would reconstitute there. Now there are exceptions to that rule… If a significantly powerful force intervenes in such a way, it can throw that process off, it can either delay it or subvert it in some way. But it takes a significant influence for that to happen; it’s not something that casually happens.

    For example people have talked about Bridenbrad, the hero who died in Northrend. We saw the Light intervene to save him and pull him away. That’s the case of one of the forces having a direct tie to a character and going out of its way to kind of yank it out of the normal cycle a little bit and do something different with it.

    Those cases are the exception rather than the rule. So if you destroyed a being of the Light, it would go back to the realm of Light and to really destroy it, you would have to go to the realm of Light and destroy it there.
    Case closed.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    was there anything else besides this statement that is full of not real certainties?
    I linked wrong article, too lazy to find the actual one for someone who cannot be bothered to read all the lore revelations and articles. Look it up yourself and you'll see how silly you are being.

  17. #37
    Clearly a reference to our lord and savior Asmongold.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    main authority as of yet. Being that when you die, where do you go? well these first ones set in place a system that takes your soul, based on how you acted and such in life and determines where you will spend the rest of eternity in the infinity of the shadowlands.

    The Light and Void represent 2 foreign powers to the universe, who yes exist outside of it and no we have no proof or evidence that anyone who has been warped by them go to the Void or Light when they die. We just dont have any information of that. We have even Uther the Light Bringer who was all about the Light who was still sent to the Shadowlands. The fact that the Light and Void are considered enemies of the Shadowlands and that there's not a Light or Void afterlife in the Shadowlands kinda shows that what they're doing is an affront to the universe. Demi-gods btw, have now been developed that they go to Ardenwield and by the grace of Ardenwield(im probably spelling that wrong) are then allowed to go back into the universe as their duty is a duty that must be continued and the authority of them also then falls to being the SnowQueen... aka the ShadowLands. Also Bridenbrad's fate is unknown, have you seen exactly where he's gone? And if he did go to the light, being outside the universe, it's because the Naaru did that to him.

    Why do they have less importance? Because they're not afterlives, the Light and the Void are outside the universe and are not realms that the living... live in. And they're less important, or illegitimate because they interfere with the natural process. If one dies, they go to the Shadowlands with the only exception being demons for obvious reasons, the only reason someone who isn't a demon wouldn't go to the shadowlands is if an outside power actively interfered. This interference obviously is a hostile action against the universe and the shadowlands, especially if it's taking souls outside of the universe as the Light and Void do(according to you).

    So yeah, the Light and Void has legit no authority or right to put an actual authority in the universe in it's place.
    What are you talking about? Literally everything in the universe is made up of the Light and Void.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeBogina View Post
    was there anything else besides this statement that is full of not real certainties?
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Danuser
    “So that same rule that we established in Legion for a being of an influence goes back, if it’s killed in the mortal realm, or some other realm, it goes back to its home realm, it’s home plane if you will. That is true of demons and it’s true of other forces as well.

    “So if Naaru are fighting in the mortal realm, for example, and a Naaru is struck down its essence would go back to the realm of Light and would be reconstituted there. Now, there are exceptions to that rule in that if a significantly powerful force intervenes it can throw that process off, it can either delay it or subverted in some way. But it takes a significant influence for that to happen. It’s not something that, that casually happens.

    “For example, people have talked about Crusader Bridenbrad the hero that died in Northrend, and we saw the Light intervene to save him and pull him away. That’s the case of one of the forces having a direct tie to a character and going out of its way to kind of yank it out of the normal cycle a little bit and do something different with it.

    “But again, those cases are the exception, rather than the rule. So if you destroyed a being of the Light, it would go back to the realm of Light and to really destroy you would have to go to the realm of Light and destroy it there.”
    - Source: SAGamer
    Sylvanas didn't even win the popular vote, she was elected by an indirect election of representatives. #NotMyWarchief

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Maljinwo View Post
    Shadowlands was a mistake
    +10, completely agree

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