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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by det View Post
    Could be that was Method or Limit? I mean....guilds racing for WF usually don't have guides
    Well, they have had previous experience with the bosses for the race - so that's better than guides

    Due to COVID-19, Germany is running out of sausages and cheese.
    The government considers this to be the Wurst Käse scenario

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrod View Post
    If you end up in a guild like that, you mow down heroic pretty quick. Then half the raid wants to go into mythic, but you can't. You only have 8 or so players. That creates a lot of stress on competent guilds and causes most to disband.
    While that happens it's certainly not 100% of the time. Many people are happy enough doing m+ and pvp after they gear up in heroic. The strict 20 man limitation on mythic has made it far less approachable than previous iterations, and many of us would rather just not do it than go through the pain of maintaining a 25 person rotating raid roster, at least a third of which are insufferable douches you have to put up with to kill bosses.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  3. #83
    Scarab Lord crakerjack's Avatar
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    There’s plenty of guilds that are like this, just they never enter heroic, or if they do it’s for the first 2-3 bosses at best. I was in a guild like this during night hold and it was horrible. I had just returned to WoW a month prior to it releasing and really had no idea of how much Dps I or others should be doing. As the months went on and I continued to get better and better, I noticed I was passing almost everyone in the raid in dps.

    After months spent wiping on to tichondrius, I made up my mind that I was going to find another guild after we killed gul’dan. A few weeks before the broken shore released, we finally killed gul’dan on normal. I told the guild as politely as I could that was going to find a more competitive guild to play with.

    I have absolutely no regrets. I can’t stand playing with others who can’t be bothered to try or put their best foot forward. We’re all allocating time to the same thing, so play as if you’re on other people’s time and not your own. If people don’t care that they suck and have no interest to read a guide and practice, they should only raid with people who are like minded.
    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Exactly. And because you don't want to do your best you are against dps meter and logs. Because those tools would show other people that you're not doing your best.
    If he/she doesnt have a dps meter, that doesnt effect other players ability to use a meter. I find the meter rather distracting during a fight, I tend to close it until after a wipe/kill.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Lurker1 View Post
    Not my problem.
    People like you are exactly the reason why logs, dps-meters and raider.io are a godsend for competent players.
    Thank god we can weed out bads like you and it seems that we are being succesfull with all those whine threads about raider.io, "elitists", dps-meters etc.
    The good players have finally broken the heavy chains of carrying 100.000s of bads....
    The freedom is exhilarating and the whiny tears and screams from the bads are like a the nectar of the gods on my lips...

  6. #86
    Short answer: Its complicated.

    There are multiple guilds doing multiple things but they all have their own issues.

    You wont find a guild that has everything you want, you have to give something to the guild, whether its patience, or tolerance to something you dont like.

    I can write a wall of text about it, but it comes down to a few things.

    Are you an actually decent player? Have you ever raided in a sensible manner or "world rank" at some point in your WoW experience? Are your logs over 90% most of the time despite your guild lowering them with their terribleness?

    Then you need TONS of patience cause realistically, people that actually "progress" in heroic are terrible for your standards and you wont last long wiping to simple stuff.

    You arent a decent player? You dont know what i am talking about at the sentence above, you dont care about DPS and logs? Then THEY have to tolerate you, if you are willing to learn.

    Now if both of you are the second part, then you do actually progress in HC, but eventually comes the time when people think they are better than they are, arguments start, they want to push Mythic, bla bla.

    etc etc etc, its so many variables that it gets boring to type, end result is, you wont find a place where you fit 100%, you have to tolerate or give something at the same time to get your results.

  7. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Scathan View Post
    I also enjoy heroic a lot more than mythic. It means I can raid with the people I enjoy playing with, even if they are not the greatest at the game. I push myself like I am in mythic, always analyzing my play and trying to improve, so it means I can carry others. In mythic you have to drop people who don't perform well enough. Even if you really enjoy them as people, and I don't like that
    Well said. I have been asked if I want to join a mythic guild during BfA, but that would mean I would have to stop raiding with the people I have raided with and have been guild with for 80% of my time in WoW. Before I would raid at the highest level, and that was my priority, but the game is so much more fun with a more relaxed approach for me, and that has been my mindset since I came back in WoD.

    I also want to perform as best as I can, and some other guildies are like that as well, but not all of us, and we are all worth as much as the other. Everyone perform as good as they can with what they got, and we don't expect more than that.
    Lying about being a CE raider and claim the 10 last Cutting Edge's while buying all of them must be the saddest thing on these forums.

    Apparently exposing liars is NOT okay.

  8. #88
    Sort of. If it's a reading guild and not a leveling guild, it means people still have an objective of progress, even if something as uninvolved as "kill last boss on normal" or even "kill as many as possible".
    But even at this level you will see some competition between members. Even if the guild master/ raid leader does not care about these things.

    For example, my guild is hc only and posting dps meters is banned. But some members still compare numbers, check rio and record logs. We don't kick people from the team nor care about performance (as in we don't tell someone he should improve, unless we have very easy ideas to help) it's more like friendly competition for those who seek to improve themselves.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Mormolyce View Post
    Used to play in guilds like that. You're always managing the tension between progression-minded players and casual players, having to deal with endless drama with people not showing up on time, wanting to bring their buds who are really nice guys but can't put out the numbers to get bosses down (even on normal), etc etc. As always, WoW raiding is 10% gameplay to 90% drama management. True at all levels, but at its worst in casual raiding guilds.

    On the other hand it's a lot less stressful and ruthless than progression raiding, you typically get more friendly with casual guildies than pro (who tend to be very competitive and less fun to hang around with), so when it does all come together it's great fun. Pros and cons.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Can confirm, minimum one guy like that per raid no matter what.
    My favorite is the "Hey guys, can someone link dps?"
    Either that guy is #1 being a jackass, or gets exposed for being bad and instantly leaves the raid.
    This seems to only happen when I feel like goofing around in LFR or Normal Raids with friends.

    OT: Any guild that isn't AOTC within, 3-4 weeks of tier launch would likely fit your bill, in my opinion.
    I'm good friends with a guy who has been in the same guild since mid Cata, and they struggle to get AOTC for more than 15 of their roster by the end of the patch. And, they have fun.
    Quote Originally Posted by bmjclark View Post
    This thread is a nice reminder that Blizzard can do something nice and still get absolutely shit on for it.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    The freedom is exhilarating and the whiny tears and screams from the bads are like a the nectar of the gods on my lips...
    Use the tools and be glad your groups are better for it. But getting "exhilirated" from someone feeling bad dips into sociopathy.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    Well said. I have been asked if I want to join a mythic guild during BfA, but that would mean I would have to stop raiding with the people I have raided with and have been guild with for 80% of my time in WoW. Before I would raid at the highest level, and that was my priority, but the game is so much more fun with a more relaxed approach for me, and that has been my mindset since I came back in WoD.

    I also want to perform as best as I can, and some other guildies are like that as well, but not all of us, and we are all worth as much as the other. Everyone perform as good as they can with what they got, and we don't expect more than that.
    I find those guild dynamics are the best too. Everyone is having fun, the skilled players get that rep for being good and dependable members, the less skilled are happy and appreciate the help/guidance, and you get to compete with your buds for top dps/hps bragging rights instead competing for the right to exist.

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by T-34 View Post
    People like you are exactly the reason why logs, dps-meters and raider.io are a godsend for competent players.
    Thank god we can weed out bads like you and it seems that we are being succesfull with all those whine threads about raider.io, "elitists", dps-meters etc.
    The good players have finally broken the heavy chains of carrying 100.000s of bads....
    The freedom is exhilarating and the whiny tears and screams from the bads are like a the nectar of the gods on my lips...
    Can't control me when im the raid or mythic group leader aka not my problem lol!

  13. #93
    Last week I was messing around with one of my shitty alts and joined a guild pug for NORMAL Ra-Den.

    I shit you not:

    We.
    Were.
    Wiping.
    On.
    Trash.


    A couple of guildies joined the group (mostly because we are bored to hell since the guild is on vacation until Shadowlands).
    When we downed Ra-Den, these guys were clapping and yelling in joy. This was the first time they downed Ra-Den. They were so happy, and it melted my heart.
    Then, more guildies joined, and we helped them to finish the rest of the bosses. When we finished, we were swamped with whispers of gratitude.
    The next day I discovered that they declared that now BFA was over for them, and finally could take vacations.

    It reminded me of simpler times when killing a boss was just a joyful experience.
    But now, when our guild killed Mythic Nzoth for the first time several months ago, our mood was more like "finally we got over this shit" than "Yay! This is awesome!"

    Sometimes I wish I just could go back and play in a super casual, family-friendly guild.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by azka View Post
    Last week I was messing around with one of my shitty alts and joined a guild pug for NORMAL Ra-Den.

    I shit you not:

    We.
    Were.
    Wiping.
    On.
    Trash.


    A couple of guildies joined the group (mostly because we are bored to hell since the guild is on vacation until Shadowlands).
    When we downed Ra-Den, these guys were clapping and yelling in joy. This was the first time they downed Ra-Den. They were so happy, and it melted my heart.
    Then, more guildies joined, and we helped them to finish the rest of the bosses. When we finished, we were swamped with whispers of gratitude.
    The next day I discovered that they declared that now BFA was over for them, and finally could take vacations.

    It reminded me of simpler times when killing a boss was just a joyful experience.
    But now, when our guild killed Mythic Nzoth for the first time several months ago, our mood was more like "finally we got over this shit" than "Yay! This is awesome!"

    Sometimes I wish I just could go back and play in a super casual, family-friendly guild.
    Reminds me of what I do occasionally on my main: I'll pick a random normal raid group (or low M+ group) in group finder and just carry them. Can bring some joy to people's gaming experience.

    I can certainly emulate your guild's experience with mythic N'zoth, as that's where I was at the end of this raiding tier. Although it was for several reasons (at least it was sub-300 wipes for our first kill), it's mostly because finding people who are actually progressive in nature when it comes to raiding is not that easy to find. Perhaps how I'm stating that is confusing, so I'll clarify that finding people who are willing and capable to do what is necessary to progress on a mythic raid boss is getting harder and harder to find. It's not uncommon to have guildies who talk the talk, but will not walk the walk: they'll be all gung-ho about coming up on a new boss and getting excited for loot they need, yet couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag while not having done any preparation for progression. Perhaps it's more of social mentality that's becoming more common in WoW, to where people feel like they're entitled to have it all while not expecting there to be work involved.

    Anyways, I'm digressing a bit. As someone mentioned before, the hard part is finding people who are all on the same page when it comes to what you deem as progression (or lack thereof). There will always be some sort of progression mentality, otherwise you wouldn't even bother doing raids or M+ at any level. Where that mentality stops is key. The Blizz intent is that you'll feel incentivized to keep progressing onto bigger and better things (whether Blizz accomplishes this or not is up to you to decide), so it's not rare that once you get AotC that you'll have people wanting to do mythic raids. Unfortunately, Blizz makes the barrier to entry much higher for mythic raiding than for any other content in the game, so this can be a cause of contention.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
    “It's not an endlessly expanding list of rights — the 'right' to education, the 'right' to health care, the 'right' to food and housing. That's not freedom, that's dependency. Those aren't rights, those are the rations of slavery — hay and a barn for human cattle.”
    ― Alexis de Tocqueville

  15. #95
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azka View Post
    Last week I was messing around with one of my shitty alts and joined a guild pug for NORMAL Ra-Den.

    I shit you not:

    We.
    Were.
    Wiping.
    On.
    Trash.


    A couple of guildies joined the group (mostly because we are bored to hell since the guild is on vacation until Shadowlands).
    When we downed Ra-Den, these guys were clapping and yelling in joy. This was the first time they downed Ra-Den. They were so happy, and it melted my heart.
    Then, more guildies joined, and we helped them to finish the rest of the bosses. When we finished, we were swamped with whispers of gratitude.
    The next day I discovered that they declared that now BFA was over for them, and finally could take vacations.

    It reminded me of simpler times when killing a boss was just a joyful experience.
    But now, when our guild killed Mythic Nzoth for the first time several months ago, our mood was more like "finally we got over this shit" than "Yay! This is awesome!"

    Sometimes I wish I just could go back and play in a super casual, family-friendly guild.
    We had a similar experience in Classic. A guild we were friendly with couldn't field a full Molten Core early so we helped out. They got their first Rag kill and were happy. When BWL came out, we were clearing with two groups but they couldn't get past Razorgore, the first boss... we helped them. Then they got stuck on Vael... So over the next few weeks, we took about 15 people in and helped them clear everything. They've improved now and are fielding their own team that clears.

    It's a great feeling to help others and have them be psyched to overcome things.
    Last edited by clevin; 2020-11-05 at 07:52 PM.

  16. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by InsaneWayneTrain View Post
    Quite the cliffhanger here, now I want to hear a spicy story.
    Back in Wrath, Disc priests had a talent that let their shields do a small amount of damage to attacking opponents. Our warlock was Below that damage in dps. We were having issues hitting the timer so we started using recount and discovered it. They tried to ask her to simply look into a rotation, but she wouldnt even do that saying she didn't have time to read a 5 minute guide on a rotation.

    Just a cautious tale of how recount becomes needed if you simply cannot get past a dps check.
    Quote Originally Posted by scorpious1109 View Post
    Why the hell would you wait till after you did this to confirm the mortality rate of such action?

  17. #97
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zantos View Post
    Back in Wrath, Disc priests had a talent that let their shields do a small amount of damage to attacking opponents. Our warlock was Below that damage in dps. We were having issues hitting the timer so we started using recount and discovered it. They tried to ask her to simply look into a rotation, but she wouldnt even do that saying she didn't have time to read a 5 minute guide on a rotation.

    Just a cautious tale of how recount becomes needed if you simply cannot get past a dps check.
    This is why I said above that you have to have SOME standards. Its fine to not obsess over meters, but people like this hurt the experience for everyone else. If they're bad because no one ever told them how to spec, what stats to go for and wha a basic rotation is but they're also willing to learn? Fine. People like this need to be kicked, though, as do the tryhards who stroke themselves over how good they are.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    Reminds me of what I do occasionally on my main: I'll pick a random normal raid group (or low M+ group) in group finder and just carry them. Can bring some joy to people's gaming experience.

    I can certainly emulate your guild's experience with mythic N'zoth, as that's where I was at the end of this raiding tier. Although it was for several reasons (at least it was sub-300 wipes for our first kill), it's mostly because finding people who are actually progressive in nature when it comes to raiding is not that easy to find. Perhaps how I'm stating that is confusing, so I'll clarify that finding people who are willing and capable to do what is necessary to progress on a mythic raid boss is getting harder and harder to find. It's not uncommon to have guildies who talk the talk, but will not walk the walk: they'll be all gung-ho about coming up on a new boss and getting excited for loot they need, yet couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag while not having done any preparation for progression. Perhaps it's more of social mentality that's becoming more common in WoW, to where people feel like they're entitled to have it all while not expecting there to be work involved.

    Anyways, I'm digressing a bit. As someone mentioned before, the hard part is finding people who are all on the same page when it comes to what you deem as progression (or lack thereof). There will always be some sort of progression mentality, otherwise you wouldn't even bother doing raids or M+ at any level. Where that mentality stops is key. The Blizz intent is that you'll feel incentivized to keep progressing onto bigger and better things (whether Blizz accomplishes this or not is up to you to decide), so it's not rare that once you get AotC that you'll have people wanting to do mythic raids. Unfortunately, Blizz makes the barrier to entry much higher for mythic raiding than for any other content in the game, so this can be a cause of contention.
    Yes, finding people with the same goals and mind setup is super hard nowadays because of all the options that are available.

    Back in the day, the end game was Raiding, PVPing and that's it! But now, you have M+, mount/transmog collecting, boosting, etc. And in our server, a lot of good players prefer just to sell boosts and are not interested in joining a raiding guild or an organized group unless they need a piece, and when they get it, they are gone. Looking at so many people above 3.5k IO with 4/12M progress breaks my heart (it shouldn't, but it does).

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by azka View Post
    Last week I was messing around with one of my shitty alts and joined a guild pug for NORMAL Ra-Den.

    I shit you not:

    We.
    Were.
    Wiping.
    On.
    Trash.


    A couple of guildies joined the group (mostly because we are bored to hell since the guild is on vacation until Shadowlands).
    When we downed Ra-Den, these guys were clapping and yelling in joy. This was the first time they downed Ra-Den. They were so happy, and it melted my heart.
    Then, more guildies joined, and we helped them to finish the rest of the bosses. When we finished, we were swamped with whispers of gratitude.
    The next day I discovered that they declared that now BFA was over for them, and finally could take vacations.

    It reminded me of simpler times when killing a boss was just a joyful experience.
    But now, when our guild killed Mythic Nzoth for the first time several months ago, our mood was more like "finally we got over this shit" than "Yay! This is awesome!"

    Sometimes I wish I just could go back and play in a super casual, family-friendly guild.
    Completely agree. When I first killed the Lich King on normal as basically raid leader I thought I was hot shit and I spent the next few weeks helping people kill him too. I kept a lockout on an alt and we’d go in and progress until he died.

    I remember at the time that it was the first time killing an end boss for many of them. It was fun, and by the end of the expansion I remember thinking that there were probably 30 people who killed Lich king thanks to my efforts.

  20. #100
    Mechagnome Wramp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kranur View Post
    Just browse for guilds that raid 1-2 days and whose goal is clearing heroic.
    sounds basically like the guild im in now, we shoot for AoTC before its too late, and have gotten it on every raid since it was available. Also, we don't have any of that extra crap mentioned by the OP
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