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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by dragothica View Post
    I'm not sure under which forum section to post this but hear me out:

    Is it possible to find or run a "non-progessive" raiding guild in modern WoW? A guild where people would just come together and almost fully forget about the competitive side of the game? For example no linking of DPS meters during raids or staring at logs after raids or talking about logs in general? But still able to raid successfully on a Normal/Heroic level? Raider.io also wouldn't be used as everything the guild did was in a guild group so using it isn't necessary.

    Or has the game design just flown past this kind of approach to the game? Gear being widely available from multiple sources makes reaching high ilvl and performance easy and the support and focus on the tools like raider.io and logs from the community.

    I know this used to be possible back in the day as I was in such a guild in WoD, but was this the same modern WoW? There was no m+ and less tools in general yet we still did manage to raid BRF and HFC on HC and the guild atmosphere was GOOD.
    I would love this.

    I hate RIO so much, i refuse to be involved with it. Someone links it, mentions it, gives unsolicited advice about another player's, i end it. Middle of a +20 and someone trashes another player's score? pff i'll leave. As if the score has any real merit. If it was like League of Legends Porofessor, i'd get behind it (where RIO would track stuns, interrupts, needless damage taken, etc) but it doesn't, it tracks completion and time which aren't a useful metric at all when you think about how it's used - looking for high-performance group members.

    I think damage meters are fine, linking them in the chat is not. Keep that shit to yourself with your ego.

    Logs i think are beyond dumb. We, as a community, do not need a raid leader looking through logs comparing 2 different players, who play the same class/spec, and deciding whom is better on the logs alone.
    Did they have to move out of fire; couldn't dps because of mechanics?
    Do they play a "call out role"?
    Are they the responsible player who is trusted with doing specific mechanics. These players are the ones who are "GOOD" not the ones rolling their face on the keyboard.

    Speaking for myself, my raid leader will always volunteer me for anything that a single player is responsible for the whole raids health - because he knows that I'll pick it up quickly and do it consistently. Calling out things, yep that's me. See someone standing in fire, i call that shit out too. Calling an important mechanic timer at 10s, 5s, Incoming. Myself, and anyone else who has this job in their guild, will suffer on the logs. However those loggers would never be "ranking" without the person who plays the actual game for them.

    TL'DR:To your original point. I think it's possible in low progression "fun" guilds. Not possible in moderately successful guilds and above. To be successful there has to be a standard that needs to be met - which is data or simply observing and calling out. The latter of the two i think being the lesser of the two evils (obviously). The problem with it is the breaking point. Eventually it gets tiring when people don't perform simple tasks so you look to resolve the problem with data. Dps check boss, too low on dps. Healing check, needless damage. Mechanic fight, too many people ignoring. These items don't just resolve themselves and something needs to be said to remedy them. The passive non-competitive side just wouldn't work in this case. Kind of hard to get a good balance...

  2. #122
    Herald of the Titans Battlebeard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melliodas View Post
    Well obviously we assume people read our requirements before joining as a raider, anyone is allowed as a casual if they want.
    Yeah well that's what I meant was nice with Classic, everyone is welcome as a raider, not just a social.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    Yeah well that's what I meant was nice with Classic, everyone is welcome as a raider, not just a social.
    Yeah but classic raiding is a lot different than retail-raiding is too.

  4. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Battlebeard View Post
    Yeah well that's what I meant was nice with Classic, everyone is welcome as a raider, not just a social.
    Dang, can I join this guild? The level of gatekeeping I've seen on my classic server, let alone own guild is staggering compared to BFA.
    Quote Originally Posted by bmjclark View Post
    This thread is a nice reminder that Blizzard can do something nice and still get absolutely shit on for it.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by DazManianDevil View Post
    Dang, can I join this guild? The level of gatekeeping I've seen on my classic server, let alone own guild is staggering compared to BFA.
    It is kinda weird. Classic guilds require more prep work for what is in essence a lfr boss then my guild did get ce.

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by enderzone View Post
    It is kinda weird. Classic guilds require more prep work for what is in essence a lfr boss then my guild did get ce.
    The spreadsheets for Nature res gear, for one boss rivaled our spreadsheet for M N'zoth. It really is interesting.
    Half my Mythic roster would do one +15 key, and raid log. From week 2 onward, and still get by.
    Quote Originally Posted by bmjclark View Post
    This thread is a nice reminder that Blizzard can do something nice and still get absolutely shit on for it.

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    I would love this.

    I hate RIO so much, i refuse to be involved with it. Someone links it, mentions it, gives unsolicited advice about another player's, i end it. Middle of a +20 and someone trashes another player's score? pff i'll leave. As if the score has any real merit. If it was like League of Legends Porofessor, i'd get behind it (where RIO would track stuns, interrupts, needless damage taken, etc) but it doesn't, it tracks completion and time which aren't a useful metric at all when you think about how it's used - looking for high-performance group members.

    I think damage meters are fine, linking them in the chat is not. Keep that shit to yourself with your ego.

    Logs i think are beyond dumb. We, as a community, do not need a raid leader looking through logs comparing 2 different players, who play the same class/spec, and deciding whom is better on the logs alone.
    Did they have to move out of fire; couldn't dps because of mechanics?
    Do they play a "call out role"?
    Are they the responsible player who is trusted with doing specific mechanics. These players are the ones who are "GOOD" not the ones rolling their face on the keyboard.

    Speaking for myself, my raid leader will always volunteer me for anything that a single player is responsible for the whole raids health - because he knows that I'll pick it up quickly and do it consistently. Calling out things, yep that's me. See someone standing in fire, i call that shit out too. Calling an important mechanic timer at 10s, 5s, Incoming. Myself, and anyone else who has this job in their guild, will suffer on the logs. However those loggers would never be "ranking" without the person who plays the actual game for them.

    TL'DR:To your original point. I think it's possible in low progression "fun" guilds. Not possible in moderately successful guilds and above. To be successful there has to be a standard that needs to be met - which is data or simply observing and calling out. The latter of the two i think being the lesser of the two evils (obviously). The problem with it is the breaking point. Eventually it gets tiring when people don't perform simple tasks so you look to resolve the problem with data. Dps check boss, too low on dps. Healing check, needless damage. Mechanic fight, too many people ignoring. These items don't just resolve themselves and something needs to be said to remedy them. The passive non-competitive side just wouldn't work in this case. Kind of hard to get a good balance...
    Logs are an invaluable tool for raiding. Just because you don't like 'players being compared', does not invalidate the usefulness of the tool. From your asinine conclusions, I can only assume you raid normal, possibly heroic difficulty. The full functionality of logs and the information they can provide are not needed at that level of raiding. If people are using them purely to measure damage, you are using it wrong. Again, this doesn't invalidate how useful the tool is if applied properly. Same thing with raider.io. "As if the score has an real merit"... it's a measure of what the player has done as far as mythic + content, when you are running mythic+ content. Of course it has merit, saying otherwise is completely disingenuous. Nobody asked if you liked it.
    Last edited by shank687; 2020-11-21 at 07:33 PM.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by shank687 View Post
    Logs are an invaluable tool for raiding. Just because you don't like 'players being compared', does not invalidate the usefulness of the tool. From your asinine conclusions, I can only assume you raid normal, possibly heroic difficulty. The full functionality of logs and the information they can provide are not needed at that level of raiding. If people are using them purely to measure damage, you are using it wrong. Again, this doesn't invalidate how useful the tool is if applied properly. Same thing with raider.io. "As if the score has an real merit"... it's a measure of what the player has done as far as mythic + content, when you are running mythic+ content. Of course it has merit, saying otherwise is completely disingenuous. Nobody asked if you liked it.
    Yeah, to use an analogy: using logs is like taking the next step in competitive sports from "beer league" where you show up and play to "we watch ourselves on tape and try to improve." This type of stuff makes a huge difference in athletic performance and it is no different here.

    The impulse to hate logs is almost always because you know you are doing something wrong and don't want anyone to know or because you have a completely different attitude about the competitive side of the game - which is completely fine! It's just important that people in any group are always on the same page. Playing in a raid with the guy who "doesn't care about logs" is almost always frustrating to everyone else because he's inevitably sandbagging

  9. #129
    Scarab Lord gaymer77's Avatar
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    100% yes it is possible as there are plenty of guilds on every server that are on the casual side and not trying to push mythic or even sometimes not even heroic raiding unless they are absolutely ready for heroic raiding. There are some times talks of dps but that typically only happens when you start hitting enrage timers too much. Some guilds do flat out ban linking dmg meters in raid or guild chat. They are ok if someone whispers it to another person if that person asks for it but it'll get you gkicked for linking it in raid or guild.

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