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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamais View Post
    What is there to fix at the base lvl? MM does not have focus problems outside of Trueshot, AiS is recharging at a rate that allows you to spend all of your Precise Shots.
    The problem with MM is that it is not currently designed as a very rewarding class to play. There is no moment of glory to base your rotation around, things like Fury rampage and the spec being built around getting as many of those as possible, or Fire mages being built around stacking crits for Pyroblast.

    While Aimed Shot is not constantly spammable, it does lack any mechanic around it that really emphasizes its role on the rotation. Compare this for instance with Destro lock, where you could simply spam Chaos Bolts, the way the spec is built emphasizes that a well placed Chaos Bolt is a reward for playing well.
    Some have argued that the core of MM is Focus management, but if it is then that might be even worse, MM really only has two abilities that regen focus, and one of them is dependent on external power to be worth using.

    MM is a class of good ideas stacked on top of eachother without a seeming idea of how they are even supposed to fit together.
    And there is of course also the fact that most of the talent tree is awful, and again doesnt really seem interested in emphasizing any part of the core rotation other than adding more unconnected abilities to it or slightly buffing others.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Wadrak View Post
    Lol you could play BM in BFA and do 20% more damage, atleast in 8.3.

    Not to mention its illogical because MM is harder to play then BM.
    MM has abilites which has to be casted while BM has all instant.
    Not to mentions procs and difficult rotation..
    That's debatable.

    IMO MM rotation is as easy, if not easier.
    There are only 2 "hard" aspects.

    First is that Aimed Shot locks you in place (which btw is only 1 ability; The rest is all fully mobile).
    However Aimed Shot is one of the more predictable casts and can quite easily be delayed slightly if you'd have to move since it's on a charge system.
    (E.g. AiS comes from cooldown but I have to move, move while I cast Arcane/Steady/RF and start cast as I cleared the hazard. Basically 0 dps lost until I'm sitting on 2 charges)

    Second would be that, since you generate focus actively through steady shots. You have to follow the ABC rule: Always Be Casting. Any GCD wasted is direct DPS loss; BM doesn't have that issue as much since the regen is much more passive.
    That makes it feel harder, but it's also a mindset and something getting used to.

    The rotation itself is very easy and straight forward. Dont cap AiS charges, use up Precise shot procs, use RF on cooldown.
    I would argue that BM's frenzy system and proper Cobra Shot usage to maximize KCs is not less complex than MM's rotation.

    ----

    As for the Rapid Fire change.
    It's a great quality of life change, but I don't think it will bring TS back to how good it was pre-SL patch.
    Without the old Master Marksman for free AS/MS and/or the Focused Fire Azerite trait, it'll be iffy.

    However it's good that they at least recognize that it was in a horrible state.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Nythiz View Post
    That's debatable.

    IMO MM rotation is as easy, if not easier.
    There are only 2 "hard" aspects.

    First is that Aimed Shot locks you in place (which btw is only 1 ability; The rest is all fully mobile).
    However Aimed Shot is one of the more predictable casts and can quite easily be delayed slightly if you'd have to move since it's on a charge system.
    (E.g. AiS comes from cooldown but I have to move, move while I cast Arcane/Steady/RF and start cast as I cleared the hazard. Basically 0 dps lost until I'm sitting on 2 charges)

    Second would be that, since you generate focus actively through steady shots. You have to follow the ABC rule: Always Be Casting. Any GCD wasted is direct DPS loss; BM doesn't have that issue as much since the regen is much more passive.
    That makes it feel harder, but it's also a mindset and something getting used to.

    The rotation itself is very easy and straight forward. Dont cap AiS charges, use up Precise shot procs, use RF on cooldown.
    I would argue that BM's frenzy system and proper Cobra Shot usage to maximize KCs is not less complex than MM's rotation.

    ----

    As for the Rapid Fire change.
    It's a great quality of life change, but I don't think it will bring TS back to how good it was pre-SL patch.
    Without the old Master Marksman for free AS/MS and/or the Focused Fire Azerite trait, it'll be iffy.

    However it's good that they at least recognize that it was in a horrible state.
    Yeah Right ... MM hunter is easy but you make half page post about it

    - - - Updated - - -

    Today I checked for first time which covenants, soulbinds etc I could use in SL

    And I also checked MM legendaries.

    There is a legendary effect called
    Eagletalon's True Focus
    Trueshot also reduces the Focus cost of all of your abilities by 50%.

    Wouldnt that kind be too much focus with the Trueshot changes ?

    Making this legendary effect less desirable.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    The problem with MM is that it is not currently designed as a very rewarding class to play. There is no moment of glory to base your rotation around
    Some like it though. Remember that people might like the design. And nobody is right or wrong to (dis)like it. It just izz

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    While Aimed Shot is not constantly spammable, it does lack any mechanic around it that really emphasizes its role on the rotation. Compare this for instance with Destro lock, where you could simply spam Chaos Bolts, the way the spec is built emphasizes that a well placed Chaos Bolt is a reward for playing well. Some have argued that the core of MM is Focus management, but if it is then that might be even worse, MM really only has two abilities that regen focus, and one of them is dependent on external power to be worth using.
    MM is all about reaction, movement and using your abilities, not rotation, as optimal as possible by choosing the most optimal ability within half seconds, especially now with Kill Shot and if you're playing with the Lock and Load talent. These can overlap and you need to make the right choice until the boss or add(s) are dead. Herein lies the challenge and satisfaction. Ironically, in bfa the challenge was to react to an overflow of focus with the random (big) haste buffs. Now we get the opposite and new additions. I can understand why you don't like it though. I like destruction Warlock too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    MM is a class of good ideas stacked on top of eachother without a seeming idea of how they are even supposed to fit together.
    And there is of course also the fact that most of the talent tree is awful, and again doesnt really seem interested in emphasizing any part of the core rotation other than adding more unconnected abilities to it or slightly buffing others.
    I think they reintroduced (old) staple MM abilities to make it more familiar and to make it 'feel' fresh. But again, it doesn't have to feel great. Some, like you, just don't feel the connection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wadrak View Post
    Yeah Right ... MM hunter is easy but you make half page post about it
    He tries to explain it in theory, but in practise it's not as easy. In reality, every spec is easy to play not-optimally, but every spec has different skill caps. Having observed multiple MM players (out of curiosity), I can assure you that people do struggle. It's not 'that' easy.
    Last edited by Adhominem; 2020-11-07 at 10:01 AM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhominem View Post
    Some like it though. Remember that people might like the design. And nobody is right or wrong to (dis)like it. It just izz


    MM is all about reaction, movement and using your abilities, not rotation, as optimal as possible by choosing the most optimal ability within half seconds, especially now with Kill Shot and if you're playing with the Lock and Load talent. These can overlap and you need to make the right choice until the boss or add(s) are dead. Herein lies the challenge and satisfaction. Ironically, in bfa the challenge was to react to an overflow of focus with the random (big) haste buffs. Now we get the opposite and new additions. I can understand why you don't like it though. I like destruction Warlock too.


    I think they reintroduced (old) staple MM abilities to make it more familiar and to make it 'feel' fresh. But again, it doesn't have to feel great. Some, like you, just don't feel the connection.



    He tries to explain it in theory, but in practise it's not as easy. In reality, every spec is easy to play not-optimally, but every spec has different skill caps. Having observed multiple MM players (out of curiosity), I can assure you that people do struggle. It's not 'that' easy.
    People like Mcdonalds too, that doesnt make it nouvelle cuisine.

    When I say MM is lacking it doesnt mean I need it to have a really tight or streamline rotation like Windwalker, what I mean is that MM currently doesnt have anything specific you can point to as "the core" of the spec that talents build around.

    Compare for instance with another Hunter spec, BM. Currently the core of that spec is pet damage, you have several abilities centered around it like Bestial Wrath, and a solid rotation bolstering that centered around Barbed Shot increasing pet attack speed and trying ot keep the buffs up for as long as possible.
    What we then have are a bunch of talents that bolster that, whether by making achieving that easier, or by adding complexity.

    MM does not have much of that, mostly because there is no easily definable core to build around.
    It could be Focus, in which case we should have more abilities that interract with Focus, things like increasing focus gain, more focus gain abilities, or abilities that cost focus, increasing complexity.
    We could have a core centered around casting Aimed Shot, in which case we might have abilities that buff it, or make it cast faster, or even potentially making it castable on hte move, making it easier.

    MM is in short lacking that core, the thing that you can become really good at and customize your playstyle around. When I say moment of glory I mean something like when BM gets constant refills or Barbed Shot, allowing them to keep the high pet damage going for longer, or when Fire mage gets to cast consecutive Pyroblasts.
    I doesnt even necessarily have to make the character extremely powerful either, it can come from basic gameplay like Unholy DK casting Apocalypse and summoning loads of ghouls, or Frost mage casting Frozen Orb and getting loads of procs.
    MM does not have any moment like this where the core of the spec becomes apparent and you get to feel really good about pulling whatever the spec is about off. The closest thing we have now that Trueshot was changed to give more Focus so we can use our rotation without feeling hindered by it.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  6. #26
    Of course it is a good change. I didn't dust off my hunter until a few weeks into the prepatch so I wasn't aware of any focus nerfs, but I was genuinely confused reading about "trueshot rotations" and yet no one even mentioning steady shot or focus starvation during it. Obviously it doesn't feel great seeing aimed shots and precise shots overcapping and then rapid fire coming off CD while you are in the middle of casting steady shot. It's just bad design.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    People like Mcdonalds too, that doesnt make it nouvelle cuisine.
    My point is that you can't sell your opinion as fact or as a norm.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    When I say MM is lacking it doesnt mean I need it to have a really tight or streamline rotation like Windwalker, what I mean is that MM currently doesnt have anything specific you can point to as "the core" of the spec that talents build around.
    Again, this is just your opinion and that's fine. What you really want to say is that you don't like the current 'core' abilities and/or find it lacking. But that doesn't mean there is no identity that embodies the play style.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Compare for instance with another Hunter spec, BM.
    Ehm, no. There is no need since MM already has it's own way of bolstering and engagement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    MM does not have much of that, mostly because there is no easily definable core to build around.
    You seem to be in a perennial state of denial. Again; MM has it's own definition. Why not accept that you don't like it and move on to something else? It's unlikely that they will make MM more or even fully mobile and give you instant Aimed shots like you wish. You want to substitute MM with ranged Survival. Just admit it lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    It could be Focus, in which case we should have more abilities that interract with Focus, things like increasing focus gain, more focus gain abilities, or abilities that cost focus, increasing complexity. We could have a core centered around casting Aimed Shot, in which case we might have abilities that buff it, or make it cast faster, or even potentially making it castable on hte move, making it easier.
    Wait, what? Focus gain? There is nothing wrong with the focus gain now. Plus there is the talent steady focus that gives you more haste which increases your focus regeneration. Voila, there you have your focus gain.

    Try having the steady focus buff up for 100% of the time while you manipulate Lethal Shots to force a more early rapid fire and have the talent Lock and Load while trying to use kill shot on cooldown. Plenty of decent engagement there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    MM is in short lacking that core, the thing that you can become really good at and customize your playstyle around. When I say moment of glory I mean something like when BM gets constant refills or Barbed Shot, allowing them to keep the high pet damage going for longer, or when Fire mage gets to cast consecutive Pyroblasts.
    A gratifying feeling is very subjective. Marksmanship is a burst spec with a mediocre cooldown. I guess I feel good for staying concentrated and using all the spells optimally. Firemage and Destro warlock are more bombastic, MM is more steady. Matter of taste.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I doesnt even necessarily have to make the character extremely powerful either, it can come from basic gameplay like Unholy DK casting Apocalypse and summoning loads of ghouls, or Frost mage casting Frozen Orb and getting loads of procs.
    Oef, frostmage. I find that one of the most boring specs ever. Especially now Glacial Spike is not the most optimal talent (last time I checked).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    MM does not have any moment like this where the core of the spec becomes apparent and you get to feel really good about pulling whatever the spec is about off. The closest thing we have now that Trueshot was changed to give more Focus so we can use our rotation without feeling hindered by it.
    That's because it's all intrinsic and shifts the charm towards features that you do not like.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhominem View Post
    My point is that you can't sell your opinion as fact or as a norm.


    Again, this is just your opinion and that's fine. What you really want to say is that you don't like the current 'core' abilities and/or find it lacking. But that doesn't mean there is no identity that embodies the play style.


    Ehm, no. There is no need since MM already has it's own way of bolstering and engagement.


    You seem to be in a perennial state of denial. Again; MM has it's own definition. Why not accept that you don't like it and move on to something else? It's unlikely that they will make MM more or even fully mobile and give you instant Aimed shots like you wish. You want to substitute MM with ranged Survival. Just admit it lol.


    Wait, what? Focus gain? There is nothing wrong with the focus gain now. Plus there is the talent steady focus that gives you more haste which increases your focus regeneration. Voila, there you have your focus gain.

    Try having the steady focus buff up for 100% of the time while you manipulate Lethal Shots to force a more early rapid fire and have the talent Lock and Load while trying to use kill shot on cooldown. Plenty of decent engagement there.


    A gratifying feeling is very subjective. Marksmanship is a burst spec with a mediocre cooldown. I guess I feel good for staying concentrated and using all the spells optimally. Firemage and Destro warlock are more bombastic, MM is more steady. Matter of taste.


    Oef, frostmage. I find that one of the most boring specs ever. Especially now Glacial Spike is not the most optimal talent (last time I checked).


    That's because it's all intrinsic and shifts the charm towards features that you do not like.
    You say I am wrong but you have not actually given any evidence to the contrary, just decried my posts as opinion and nothing more.

    Do tell, what is the well-defined core of MM that the rotation and talents builds upon?

    MM is not built solidly as a spec. There are good ideas in it like hardcasting Aimed Shot making the rotation distinct, or Lone Wolf giving MM hunter two distinct modes of combat where you can swap DPS for utility.

    I don't think it is asking for too much when I want to feel that my preferred spec has a distinct vision by the developers.
    Personally I would prefer a more distinct focus on Aimed Shot and having the rotation center around buffing it in various ways, but I can live perfectly fine with the intended core being focus regen. All I want then is just that the talents and rotation more heavily emphasizes that core.


    Also, you seem to have a bizarre thought that want I want is for the spec to be more complicated mechanically, whereas what I actually want is for the rotation to have a point, I want to feel that the way i use my abilities are because that distinct way of using them is the ideal means of achieving something other than just DPS. Something like Arcane where doing the most DPS is of course the point, but you achieve that by focusing on when and where to use loads of mana, and where to conserve it for later.


    And again, just consider what the point of MM actually is, which is something you did not actually answer.
    What is the core of MM, and how does the rotation and talents show that?
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    You say I am wrong but you have not actually given any evidence to the contrary, just decried my posts as opinion and nothing more.
    You're trying to sell your opinion as something that represents all Hunters. You simply do not. I don't need to provide evidence for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Do tell, what is the well-defined core of MM that the rotation and talents builds upon?
    Already have pointed this out. You're either not reading it or not registering it. There definitely is some synergy. This was also well documented by youtubers who have access to Beta.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    MM is not built solidly as a spec. There are good ideas in it like hardcasting Aimed Shot making the rotation distinct, or Lone Wolf giving MM hunter two distinct modes of combat where you can swap DPS for utility.
    We already know how you feel about MM's identity. No need to repeat it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I don't think it is asking for too much when I want to feel that my preferred spec has a distinct vision by the developers.
    Personally I would prefer a more distinct focus on Aimed Shot and having the rotation center around buffing it in various ways, but I can live perfectly fine with the intended core being focus regen. All I want then is just that the talents and rotation more heavily emphasizes that core.
    I spoke about the concentration aspect. You want Aimed shot to have more focus: Careful Aim gives it a buff. Double Tap boosts it's damage aswell. In both occasions you will need to make the right decision. Is it better for my damage to use aimed shot or rapid fire. You dont have much time to make these decisions, espeially during something like Heroism. This amplifies aimed shot damage, your overal damage and requires you, the player, to call the shots properly. This is MM aswell. Having said this, like you, I wouldn't mind more mechanics that can boost Aimed Shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    Also, you seem to have a bizarre thought that want I want is for the spec to be more complicated mechanically, whereas what I actually want is for the rotation to have a point, I want to feel that the way i use my abilities are because that distinct way of using them is the ideal means of achieving something other than just DPS. Something like Arcane where doing the most DPS is of course the point, but you achieve that by focusing on when and where to use loads of mana, and where to conserve it for later.
    It's unfortunate that you don't feel the same with MM as with the mentioned classes where you do feel the point of the rotation. MM is just designed in a way where you dont have your moments of glory or bombastic gameplay. Despite it being a burstspec, it's a fairly steady spec that puts emphasis on other parts when it comes to complexity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    And again, just consider what the point of MM actually is, which is something you did not actually answer.
    What is the core of MM, and how does the rotation and talents show that?
    Already answered this over and over again. MM's main core ability is aimed shot. With the introduction of rapid shot, Aimed Shot gained a counterpart where both abilities are vying for priority. This combined with ability-, focus- and (semi)movement management is what makes MM Marksmanship. The important talent rows (35, 45, 50) compound on this by buffing the mentioned spells and playstyle (mainly what to do and when since it's reactive)

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhominem View Post
    I spoke about the concentration aspect. You want Aimed shot to have more focus: Careful Aim gives it a buff. Double Tap boosts it's damage aswell. In both occasions you will need to make the right decision. Is it better for my damage to use aimed shot or rapid fire. You dont have much time to make these decisions, espeially during something like Heroism. This amplifies aimed shot damage, your overal damage and requires you, the player, to call the shots properly. This is MM aswell. Having said this, like you, I wouldn't mind more mechanics that can boost Aimed Shot.


    It's unfortunate that you don't feel the same with MM as with the mentioned classes where you do feel the point of the rotation. MM is just designed in a way where you dont have your moments of glory or bombastic gameplay. Despite it being a burstspec, it's a fairly steady spec that puts emphasis on other parts when it comes to complexity.


    Already answered this over and over again. MM's main core ability is aimed shot. With the introduction of rapid shot, Aimed Shot gained a counterpart where both abilities are vying for priority. This combined with ability-, focus- and (semi)movement management is what makes MM Marksmanship. The important talent rows (35, 45, 50) compound on this by buffing the mentioned spells and playstyle (mainly what to do and when since it's reactive)
    I would argue that a spec not having a core mechanic is bad design.
    You talk about buffing Aimed Shot and what have you, but what we don't really have is synergy.
    Compare to back in Uldir, most of the spec was the same, but we did have a build that gave the spec some synergy and purpose, the entire rotation was centered around one big impactful Aiimed Shot. We didnt just use Steady Shot because we were focus starved, we used it because optimizing the usage meant we did higher damage Aimed Shot.

    There are loads of good ideas in MM, but not a lot of interplay between the abilities. Focus is the one binding factor between most, but only in the same way Energy is a limiting factor in how quickly you can press abilities as a rogue.

    Having a distinct core in the spec helps inform talent choices, both for hte player and for the developers. It helps inform how to play the class well in a natural way instead of having to check a guide or invest in a DPS meter.
    What is this intuitive core in MM that players can learn to become better at?


    I guess in the end we will just have to wait and see what happens with MM, it could obviously just be that I don't get what the spec is supposed to be about, though I feel the problem is rather that I disagree on a fundamental level that MM is built as a good spec, and indeed requires a more thorough rework. Not necessarily to change all the abilities, but at least just for the developers to build the spec around a core idea of what you are supposed to achieve.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  11. #31
    MM isn't "harder" or more complicated than BM--that's not the right point to make or a worthwhile argument to have. The real point is that BM loses no damage to movement, whereas MM can lose at least a bit of damage to movement (smart planning of movement around the charge system can mitigate the loss, but not entirely remove it). MM should get compensated for that damage that BM passively gains. It shouldn't be a huge difference in "standstill DPS" (because, again, MM doesn't lose that much damage to movement if played correctly) but it should be a little ahead, with BM catching up due to the movement in encounters.
    That is not dead which can eternal lie.
    And with strange aeons even death may die.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Sondrelk View Post
    I would argue that a spec not having a core mechanic is bad design.
    You talk about buffing Aimed Shot and what have you, but what we don't really have is synergy.
    Compare to back in Uldir, most of the spec was the same, but we did have a build that gave the spec some synergy and purpose, the entire rotation was centered around one big impactful Aiimed Shot. We didnt just use Steady Shot because we were focus starved, we used it because optimizing the usage meant we did higher damage Aimed Shot.

    There are loads of good ideas in MM, but not a lot of interplay between the abilities. Focus is the one binding factor between most, but only in the same way Energy is a limiting factor in how quickly you can press abilities as a rogue.

    Having a distinct core in the spec helps inform talent choices, both for hte player and for the developers. It helps inform how to play the class well in a natural way instead of having to check a guide or invest in a DPS meter.
    What is this intuitive core in MM that players can learn to become better at?


    I guess in the end we will just have to wait and see what happens with MM, it could obviously just be that I don't get what the spec is supposed to be about, though I feel the problem is rather that I disagree on a fundamental level that MM is built as a good spec, and indeed requires a more thorough rework. Not necessarily to change all the abilities, but at least just for the developers to build the spec around a core idea of what you are supposed to achieve.
    You have reiterated that you don't like or don't see a core mechanic. This is fine. But please accept that others might feel that there is a core mechanic in place. Bare with it or keep the hope alive that one day you will get your wish of a big change. Wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. Feedback is always appreciated!

    Quote Originally Posted by shanthi View Post
    MM isn't "harder" or more complicated than BM--that's not the right point to make or a worthwhile argument to have. The real point is that BM loses no damage to movement, whereas MM can lose at least a bit of damage to movement (smart planning of movement around the charge system can mitigate the loss, but not entirely remove it). MM should get compensated for that damage that BM passively gains. It shouldn't be a huge difference in "standstill DPS" (because, again, MM doesn't lose that much damage to movement if played correctly) but it should be a little ahead, with BM catching up due to the movement in encounters.
    So you think in general, the average player would do equally well as MM and BM? This is not what I've experienced. You can explain the over-simplistic differences and compensations, but you forget the practicality of wether the mass is able to convert it (closer) to optimal damage. Also, even bosses where you can quasi-turret have mechanics.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhominem View Post
    You have reiterated that you don't like or don't see a core mechanic. This is fine. But please accept that others might feel that there is a core mechanic in place. Bare with it or keep the hope alive that one day you will get your wish of a big change. Wouldn't hold my breath if I were you. Feedback is always appreciated!



    So you think in general, the average player would do equally well as MM and BM? This is not what I've experienced. You can explain the over-simplistic differences and compensations, but you forget the practicality of wether the mass is able to convert it (closer) to optimal damage. Also, even bosses where you can quasi-turret have mechanics.
    I feel that if I cannot see a core mechanic then it isnt sufficiently explored by the design, which is why a redesign might be necessary.

    If people are content with the current spec then that is fine I guess, but I suspect many are not massively happy with some of the choices. Things like the first talent row being pointless with 2 mostly dead talents, Rapid Fire being buffed in several different rows to make it competetive similar to how Blade Dance is buffed for Havoc, and a general button bloat that makes it difficult to comfortably place most of the abilities the game gives you.
    The world revamp dream will never die!

  14. #34
    I still don’t understand why aimed shot having charges when it already costs focus. It’s like chaos bolt having 2 charges when warlock uses it twice then you can only use incinerate 10 secs? That sucks. I still think legion Mm was way better than what we have today. Including trueshot being one of best cd.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by aeonss View Post
    I still don’t understand why aimed shot having charges when it already costs focus. It’s like chaos bolt having 2 charges when warlock uses it twice then you can only use incinerate 10 secs? That sucks. I still think legion Mm was way better than what we have today. Including trueshot being one of best cd.
    Without charges, you would only spam AiS + SS during trueshot and not use anything else. With charges, you use AS, too.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    Without charges, you would only spam AiS + SS during trueshot and not use anything else. With charges, you use AS, too.
    It can compensated by number changes with rapid fire doing more dmg and using arcane shot with buff up.
    Last edited by aeonss; 2020-11-10 at 08:37 PM.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by aeonss View Post
    It can conpensated by number changes with rapid fire doing more dmg and using arcane shot with buff up.
    You'd have to nerf AiS then. At that point AiS becomes AS and AS becomes AiS.
    That would mean MM isn't about focus management but about proc management.

    AiS is the most cost efficient ability. As long as that remains to be true true, you'll cast AiS all the time without charges.
    RF is a generator so RF is not competing against AiS but against SS in terms of dmg/focus gained ratio per second.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2020-11-10 at 02:43 PM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    You'd have to nerf AiS then. At that point AiS becomes AS and AS becomes AiS.
    That would mean MM isn't about focus management but about proc management.

    AiS is the most cost efficient ability. As long as that remains to be true true, you'll cast AiS all the time without charges.
    RF is a generator so RF is not competing against AiS but against SS in terms of dmg/focus gained ratio per second.
    Proc management as you say still seems way more fun than what we have with small tuning like make AS proc more random then we’ll use AiS as spender with those procs on AS which uses way less focus. Then having lock on load procs sounds pretty fun to me. Because right now we have to cast AiS soon as we can otherwise dps loss because of Lock n Load, and there have times where i have to use unbuffed AS to dump focus because of no charge on AiS, damn it feels so bad.

    And about RF as long as it gives more focus we’ll cast it on cd so it doesn’t seems to be problem specially if it does more dmg then it makes our trueshot more useful cd because trueshot decreases RF cd.
    Last edited by aeonss; 2020-11-10 at 08:43 PM.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhominem View Post
    So you think in general, the average player would do equally well as MM and BM? This is not what I've experienced. You can explain the over-simplistic differences and compensations, but you forget the practicality of wether the mass is able to convert it (closer) to optimal damage. Also, even bosses where you can quasi-turret have mechanics.
    At least the average raider, mythic+ player or PvPer, yes. That's really where tight balance matters. For players who largely just consume world content, there shouldn't be massive deltas between specs, but one spec being a few percent less or more damage isn't even noticeable and which spec is marginally more difficult (if at all) also doesn't matter. All that really matters is whether they find a given spec fun.

    I don't think MM has some clearly higher skillcap that needs to be compensated. I think anyone that struggles with the "complexity" of planning their movement around Aimed Shot charges would struggle with the "complexity" of managing uptime on Frenzy.
    That is not dead which can eternal lie.
    And with strange aeons even death may die.

  20. #40
    MM isn't hard to play at its base. It really comes down to 2 things. AiS charges. And keeping rapid fire off CD. The issue with that is when you have to move you are delaying precise shots, which you don't want to cap/lose out on. But you have to cast AiS because AiS>Precise shot, but then you start running low on focus needing to Steady Shot back up, while AiS charges are coming back and you STILL haven't used those precise shot proc's. That is the core issue with MM once you wrap your head around that aspect the spec gets immensely easier. But it's this little awkward dance you have to do where again you have Precise Shot proc's, and you just aren't using them up. So it does make the gameplay a little awkward.

    Admittedly im not the best at explaining thing's but hopefully that gets the point across.

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