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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotles View Post
    MM isn't hard to play at its base.
    That applies virtually to every spec in the game and is not disputed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotles View Post
    It really comes down to 2 things. AiS charges. And keeping rapid fire off CD. The issue with that is when you have to move you are delaying precise shots, which you don't want to cap/lose out on.
    Precise shots are buffed arcane shots that you can shoot while moving..

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotles View Post
    But you have to cast AiS because AiS>Precise shot, but then you start running low on focus needing to Steady Shot back up, while AiS charges are coming back and you STILL haven't used those precise shot proc's. That is the core issue with MM once you wrap your head around that aspect the spec gets immensely easier. But it's this little awkward dance you have to do where again you have Precise Shot proc's, and you just aren't using them up. So it does make the gameplay a little awkward.
    No mention of mainteining a 100% buff uptime of Steady Focus? No mention of target switching for killshot or mobs above 70% HP? No mention of manipulating arcane shot for Lethal Shots to shave off Rapid Fire CD? No mention of weaving in Lock and Load while having multiple available abilities ready? Even something basic like when to use Ais or Rapid Fire with Double Tab or setting up AOE optimally can be easy to not do right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scrotles View Post
    Admittedly im not the best at explaining thing's but hopefully that gets the point across.
    Noted


    Quote Originally Posted by shanthi View Post
    At least the average raider, mythic+ player or PvPer, yes. That's really where tight balance matters. For players who largely just consume world content, there shouldn't be massive deltas between specs, but one spec being a few percent less or more damage isn't even noticeable and which spec is marginally more difficult (if at all) also doesn't matter. All that really matters is whether they find a given spec fun.

    I don't think MM has some clearly higher skillcap that needs to be compensated. I think anyone that struggles with the "complexity" of planning their movement around Aimed Shot charges would struggle with the "complexity" of managing uptime on Frenzy.
    For the record, I'm referring to playing the game competitively; aiming for the highest parses while surviving and doing the mechanics properly. Then the nuances become more distinct, apparent and you'll find that movement around aimed shot is this one aspect to be aware of.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhominem View Post
    For the record, I'm referring to playing the game competitively; aiming for the highest parses while surviving and doing the mechanics properly. Then the nuances become more distinct, apparent and you'll find that movement around aimed shot is this one aspect to be aware of.
    It's an aspect to be aware of, but correct management of the Frenzy debuff is also an "aspect to be aware of" and better players do a better job of managing it than others in the heat of dealing with mechanics. I prefer MM, but I'm under no illusions that it's a "harder" spec--neither spec is notably difficult, but both have nuances that can separate better players from worse players, which is why every hunter can't parse 100. Parses that are compared to your class and spec show a wide spectrum of player skill around those mechanics (Aimed Shot for MM, Frenzy for BM).
    That is not dead which can eternal lie.
    And with strange aeons even death may die.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by shanthi View Post
    It's an aspect to be aware of, but correct management of the Frenzy debuff is also an "aspect to be aware of"
    This means very little since it pales when compared to the many more aspects of MM to do close to maximum damage. My point is that your brain doesn't have to work that hard as BM. The nuances that you have to remember and use correctly within a very limited time frame and maintaining movement management has a higher skill cap. You also forget that haste spikes was an issue in bfa. This underlines the need to be able to react (read: think and act) quickly in addition to the already mentioned juggling. The spectrum is just broader to understand which pattern yields the highest damage. What does this mean? Min-maxing is more prone to making mistakes as MM.

    Quote Originally Posted by shanthi View Post
    I prefer MM, but I'm under no illusions
    Your (our) illusion is your reality within your (ours) frame of ability and understanding. Your mileage may vary and having watched MM players, it's notable that good MM players are very hard to find while BM's do much better, both in staying alive, doing mechanics and doing decent damage and in both a mythic+ and raid setting. So your illusion is not the reality of my observations which doesn't disrespect your view, it's just not how I see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by shanthi View Post
    that it's a "harder" spec--neither spec is notably difficult, but both have nuances that can separate better players from worse players, which is why every hunter can't parse 100. Parses that are compared to your class and spec show a wide spectrum of player skill around those mechanics (Aimed Shot for MM, Frenzy for BM).
    You're making it sound as if the nuances for both specs are equal. That's oversimplifying things and just wrong. The fact that BM's made a wall of text about how they hate Hunter's mark not being off the CD and how terrible it is (read: hard to use/clunky) gives a good indication of 'spectrum' and mindset. And let's not forget the ever present demand to make aimed shot instant or give MM even more mobility. You could argue that the point of these suggestions are to make it more.. 'fun'. Could be, or it could also be the need to have it made less difficult.

    I want to repeat that there is no such thing as a very complicated class/spec in WoW, but not all specs were created equal in terms of handling.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Adhominem View Post
    The fact that BM's made a wall of text about how they hate Hunter's mark not being off the CD and how terrible it is (read: hard to use/clunky) gives a good indication of 'spectrum' and mindset.
    This tells me that you're coming at this from an extremely slanted perspective--MM hunters hated Hunter's Mark every bit as much. The hunter Discord had just as much bitching about HM from MM and BM hunters and the top-end progression players who play whichever spec sims the best. Not because Hunter's Mark was "hard" but because it created perverse incentives--you either had to not switch off the boss to priority targets or else you had to gimp your damage because it wasn't worth putting up HM on something that wouldn't live for over 30 seconds. That's not "difficulty" or even a limitation that creates depth to a playstyle--it's just crappy design.

    You're clearly a player that finds it difficult to play around the charge system for a stand-still ability and that's fine. Quite a few people struggle with maintaining optimal uptime on Frenzy too when it's not just a training dummy situation. Neither of these things are appreciably more difficult than the other, in my opinion. The charge system gives you windows in which you can move without losing any damage and if you plan your movement with a modicum of care, that's not really much of a limitation. And the actual rotation of MM is kind of brain dead easy--there's not even any random procs to respond to or decision-making inherent in the rotation. If it wasn't for having to stand still to cast Aimed Shot, MM could be played optimally by a five year old (and I mean that literally, not as hyperbole). Acting like the inability to move during Aimed Shot elevates it to something appreciably harder than BM is silly, again in my opinion.

    Not all specs are exactly equal in difficulty, but BM and MM are awfully close. If you can play BM optimally, you're not going to find MM a jump in difficulty, just a different type of challenge to learn.

    Now, the caveat I'd offer is that since they are different types of challenges, some people may find one to be much more difficult than the other due to how they process things. Just as you could argue that physics and chemistry are not necessarily objectively different in difficulty but some people may be more suited to one than the other. But having played lots of BM and MM over the last few years, my view (and it is only my view) is that neither one takes a clearly higher level of skill to play well.

    I did feel MM had a significantly higher skillcap in Legion, but both specs have changed quite a bit since then (MM much more, but BM had the Dire Frenzy mechanic, which was the higher skillcap talent, baked in as a core mechanic).
    Last edited by shanthi; 2020-11-27 at 08:15 AM.
    That is not dead which can eternal lie.
    And with strange aeons even death may die.

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