Slice and Dice need to go

[Saltysquidoon]

so Rogue is the only class I have never played at max level and just now leveling one up. Whats wrong with SnD? Is it because its mindless to use but still provides good DPS or is it actually a bad skill?

It depends on the spec.
It's fine for combat because it's filling the hole left by RtBs in the rotation.
It's meh for Sub but this is ameliorated somewhat by premed and the fact that sub has CP's falling out of its pockets
It's really bad for Assasniation because it generates CPs both awkwardly and at the slowest rate so any time you add a higher prio CP spender to your rotation you lose proportionally more envenoms than you actually think you do.

The general issues are; In legion, Assa and Sub were reworked to function without SnD and its blanket return to all the specs jus makes it feel bolted on and not actually weaved into the spec (well that's not true it was never really weaved into Assa even before legion). There's also just the general issue of easily maintained maintence buffs in that if it's easy to maintain you're expected to have it up 100% of the time and if it's up 100% of the time it ceases to be a buff it just means you have to press a button to get to baseline damage.

terrible zoomer rogues have zero respect for the class. all they want is 1. maximum dps with a few button presses and very front loaded with no ramp up, 2. flashy visuals and cLaSs FaNtAsY

Hey, mate subs's looking pretty good right now, what covenant did you pick btw?

[Beatman]

I'm sure you would also prefer to pull multiple packs at once and zerg them down with aoe instead of playing like a sneaky, strategic Rogue that uses sap, blind, gouge, etc...

People with that foolish, simpleminded, and destructive attitude have utterly ruined the uniqueness of the Rogue class in pursuit of yet another generic rotation bot that plays the same way as every other melee and makes up for the loss of mechanical uniqueness with flashy but superficial visual fluff. It's disgusting, and the lot of you -- anybody who asked for or celebrates this tragedy -- should be ashamed.

We are playing WoW, not D&D.

I think you are delusional and too invested in the rogue class to see the bad design behind abilities like S&D. If some parts of the rotation (everyone is forced to execute btw) aren't fun, those parts should be replaced or removed. It's as simple as that.

[shoegazing]

We are playing WoW, not D&D.

I think you are delusional and too invested in the rogue class to see the bad design behind abilities like S&D. If some parts of the rotation (everyone is forced to execute btw) aren't fun, those parts should be replaced or removed. It's as simple as that.

Juggling multiple timers IS fun for me, and it's been a staple of Rogue gameplay forever. If it's not fun for you, maybe you should go play a different class. There are lots of options that don't involve too much timer management, and no need to make Rogue into yet another clone of the others, with the visual layer being the only differentiator.

[Kaver]

We are playing WoW, not D&D.

I think you are delusional and too invested in the rogue class to see the bad design behind abilities like S&D. If some parts of the rotation (everyone is forced to execute btw) aren't fun, those parts should be replaced or removed. It's as simple as that.

Mate, Shoegazing hasn’t been playing retail WoW for the last 4-5 years. He got absolutely no knowledge of how the current retail game works so it is completely pointless to discuss anything with him. For some reason he still spend countless hours arguing about a game he doesn’t even play. And most of his arguments is based on outdated knowledge from vanilla. He thinks the Rogue should work like it did in 2005.

Basically Shoegazing is very bitter that WoW and the Rogue class have changed over the years and now he is taking his frustration out on other players, even though we have no blame for Blizzards design choices. My best advice is to not argue with Shoegazing as he doesn’t even play the game and seems a bit delusional.

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we are not playing classic anymore fyi

Shoegazing hasn’t been playing retail WoW for the last 4-5 years so it’s not so weird that all his arguments are based on outdated classic knowledge. Just ignore him.

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It depends on the spec.
It's fine for combat because it's filling the hole left by RtBs in the rotation.
It's meh for Sub but this is ameliorated somewhat by premed and the fact that sub has CP's falling out of its pockets
It's really bad for Assasniation because it generates CPs both awkwardly and at the slowest rate so any time you add a higher prio CP spender to your rotation you lose proportionally more envenoms than you actually think you do.

The general issues are; In legion, Assa and Sub were reworked to function without SnD and its blanket return to all the specs jus makes it feel bolted on and not actually weaved into the spec (well that's not true it was never really weaved into Assa even before legion). There's also just the general issue of easily maintained maintence buffs in that if it's easy to maintain you're expected to have it up 100% of the time and if it's up 100% of the time it ceases to be a buff it just means you have to press a button to get to baseline damage.


Hey, mate subs's looking pretty good right now, what covenant did you pick btw?

Well there are no covenants in Classic WoW so Shoegazing wouldn’t know anything about it. Just like he doesn’t know anything else about how retail WoW works since he hasn’t played the game for the last 4-5 years. The only connection he has with retail WoW is writing about it on forums. It’s like someone commenting on a football team but never watching any of their games.

[Nynax]

The general issues are; In legion, Assa and Sub were reworked to function without SnD and its blanket return to all the specs jus makes it feel bolted on and not actually weaved into the spec (well that's not true it was never really weaved into Assa even before legion). There's also just the general issue of easily maintained maintence buffs in that if it's easy to maintain you're expected to have it up 100% of the time and if it's up 100% of the time it ceases to be a buff it just means you have to press a button to get to baseline damage.

Nailed it. SnD feels awkward and shoehorned in because it is. It's just "there" no interactions with anything else, no real reason to maintain it other than just cause. Yes it's a dps gain because of tuning, but it doesn't really feel like it in today's WoW. It was a different story back in the day when white auto attack damage really mattered and you could see the significance of faster stabbies, but no class really gives a shit about that anymore.

[Sparklelord]

What really needs to go is RtB and the Outlaw spec as a whole. #BringCombatBack

Yeah not sure what they're doing with Outlaw. They were just like "Fk it, give them all the upkeep/buffs" lol. Slice and Dice AND RTB. KS AND Between the Eyes. Etc. I wish there was more payoff other than just the passive damage but that was always combats niche.

[shoegazing]

Mate, Shoegazing hasn’t been playing retail WoW for the last 4-5 years.

If you don't stop spreading this lie about me, I will ask moderators to step in. This is becoming targeted harassment.

I don't mind if you tell people that I haven't played retail since Shadowlands launch yet, because that is factually true. But I played Legion extensively (wish I didn't though -- it was a miserable experience), and played BFA (release date: August 2018) very casually, as in I logged in every once in a while to queue some undergeared PvP with friends. I was also a beta tester for Shadowlands....

[Melsiren]

If you don't stop spreading this lie about me, I will ask moderators to step in. This is becoming targeted harassment.

I don't mind if you tell people that I haven't played retail since Shadowlands launch yet, because that is factually true. But I played Legion extensively (wish I didn't though -- it was a miserable experience), and played BFA (release date: August 2018) very casually, as in I logged in every once in a while to queue some undergeared PvP with friends. I was also a beta tester for Shadowlands....

Gotta love when they resort to ad hominen.

[shoegazing]

Gotta love when they resort to ad hominen.

Indeed.

Although, it's understandable why they have to resort to it, because let's face it, this is basically indefensible:

[bloodmoth13]

What really needs to go is RtB and the Outlaw spec as a whole. #BringCombatBack

wasnt combat just outlaw without pistol shot, between the eyes and roll the bones? all the stuff that makes the spec engaging? no thanks.

[Saltysquidoon]

I mean the best part about old combat was when killing spree was good, so there's that I guess.

[shoegazing]

i won't play my rogue at 60 until it's gone... i hate it that much lol...

I really don't care about your alt that you picked up in recent expansions, buddy. The class is better off in the long term with a population more skewed towards OG Rogues, so it's good that you are playing something else.

[clevin]

I really don't care about your alt that you picked up in recent expansions, buddy. The class is better off in the long term with a population more skewed towards OG Rogues, so it's good that you are playing something else.

And you whined above about ad hominem attacks. Pot, kettle.

[shoegazing]

And you whined above about ad hominem attacks. Pot, kettle.

It's pretty consistent with my fundamental point of view which is that Rogue class should be designed for people that love the Rogue class and want to play it above all else, rather than tourists who pick a different class each expansion or just pick what is powerful.

Blizzard made the mistake of listening to a bunch of Rogue alts and fotm tourists, and because of it they ruined the strengths and weaknesses of the class and delivered the worst version of it that ever existed in Legion/BFA, resulting in massive discontentment and player resentment.

Kevin Jordan (one of the 3 original WoW devs, and THE original designer of the classes) and Chris Kaleiki who just left the WoW team after 13 years, recently talked about what a mistake it was to piss off the "core" audience, and how hostile players can be towards unexpected/unwanted changes: https://youtu.be/tEEk-7kEFfk

[Moggers1990]

If you don't stop spreading this lie about me, I will ask moderators to step in. This is becoming targeted harassment.

I don't mind if you tell people that I haven't played retail since Shadowlands launch yet, because that is factually true. But I played Legion extensively (wish I didn't though -- it was a miserable experience), and played BFA (release date: August 2018) very casually, as in I logged in every once in a while to queue some undergeared PvP with friends. I was also a beta tester for Shadowlands....

So your experience of BfA Rogue is incredibly limited, and you beta tested for Shadowlands but don't actually play it. Then have the nerve to tell people they're wrong when they dislike Slice and Dice being shoe-horned back into the spec as the only change going into Shadowlands outside of losing 50% of what made Assassination fun to play in BfA (Traits and Essences).
I am just hoping you didn't leave feedback for Assassination championing Slice and Dice and how it currently plays because right now, it plays like absolute garbage.
There is nothing enjoyable about Slice and Dice in the modern spec, all it does is make auto-attacks your highest damaging ability and as a bi-product make all your other abilities empty shells because 20-30% of your damage is done for you. Add this into M+, and all you get is the insane dullness of opening on a pack while you constantly have to wait for energy before you even get Slice and Dice up, let alone your Ruptures, Envenom or Crimson Tempest. By the time you have things rolling, the pack is basically dead and you're just sat there wondering why the fuck you're even in the group. This isn't asking for "instant burst damage that makes me like a Warrior", it's asking for the ability to actually press my buttons more than once every 3 seconds. Assassination is still very much a unique spec with DoTs and timers you need to pay attention to and has no risk of "becoming like every other spec". Needing to refresh Slice and Dice just ruins the gameplay of maximising Envenom/Elaborate Planning uptimes and pooling/playing around your Shiv windows which is going to be even more important as the expansion goes on.

You talk about Blizzard NEEDING to cater to the "OG" Rogues, but that alienates so many more people. Classic is there for a reason, if you enjoy waiting around for aggro and keeping up Slice and Dice in between pressing Sinister Strike every so often then go play that, don't force outdated playstyles onto everyone else who are still enjoying the CURRENT game. I've played Rogue since TBC and I've never been happier than when they removed Slice and Dice from Assassination (and then from the class entirely) and BfA was the most fun Assassination has been for a long time which has now been snatched away all in an attempt to make the game closer to how it has been before.

[shoegazing]

So your experience of BfA Rogue is incredibly limited, and you beta tested for Shadowlands but don't actually play it. Then have the nerve to tell people they're wrong when they dislike Slice and Dice being shoe-horned back into the spec as the only change going into Shadowlands outside of losing 50% of what made Assassination fun to play in BfA (Traits and Essences).
I am just hoping you didn't leave feedback for Assassination championing Slice and Dice and how it currently plays because right now, it plays like absolute garbage.
There is nothing enjoyable about Slice and Dice in the modern spec, all it does is make auto-attacks your highest damaging ability and as a bi-product make all your other abilities empty shells because 20-30% of your damage is done for you. Add this into M+, and all you get is the insane dullness of opening on a pack while you constantly have to wait for energy before you even get Slice and Dice up, let alone your Ruptures, Envenom or Crimson Tempest. By the time you have things rolling, the pack is basically dead and you're just sat there wondering why the fuck you're even in the group. This isn't asking for "instant burst damage that makes me like a Warrior", it's asking for the ability to actually press my buttons more than once every 3 seconds. Assassination is still very much a unique spec with DoTs and timers you need to pay attention to and has no risk of "becoming like every other spec". Needing to refresh Slice and Dice just ruins the gameplay of maximising Envenom/Elaborate Planning uptimes and pooling/playing around your Shiv windows which is going to be even more important as the expansion goes on.

You talk about Blizzard NEEDING to cater to the "OG" Rogues, but that alienates so many more people. Classic is there for a reason, if you enjoy waiting around for aggro and keeping up Slice and Dice in between pressing Sinister Strike every so often then go play that, don't force outdated playstyles onto everyone else who are still enjoying the CURRENT game. I've played Rogue since TBC and I've never been happier than when they removed Slice and Dice from Assassination (and then from the class entirely) and BfA was the most fun Assassination has been for a long time which has now been snatched away all in an attempt to make the game closer to how it has been before.

that problem is easily fixed by the encounter designers giving mobs higher health pools for longer encounters -- not only in instanced combat but out in the world as well.

watch the video I linked above, they spend a great deal of time talking about how WoW has increasingly had pacing more like an action RPG, the influence that Diablo developers brought to the game when they were moved over to the WoW team, and how that alienates the MMO audience that prefers more tactical gameplay, while action RPG audiences already have other great games that they can go play.

like seriously, use your brain. "my class too much ramp to keep up with the modern zerg rush everything pace of gameplay" isn't a class design problem, it's the pacing itself which is wrong. watch the linked video, they discuss this in great detail.



EDIT: Watch the segment started at 1 hour 13 minutes....

[Moggers1990]

that problem is easily fixed by the encounter designers giving mobs higher health pools for longer encounters -- not only in instanced combat but out in the world as well.

Not an easy fix by any means. Just increase mob health because a spec has an incredible amount of ramp up and disastrous resource generation? Yes, Assassination will do slightly better or close the gap a bit more when mobs start living for longer in higher M+. But that then skews dungeon scaling, completion time, how healers heal and how tanks take damage. If everything lasts twice as long, things will have to do less damage to the point it's not dangerous and I doubt anyone wants to near-enough double the amount of time it takes to complete a dungeon or world content just to fix spec issues that were suddenly created for no reason.

I'm also not even complaining that Assassination has ramp up time, it always has. But it's the fact that Slice and Dice delays and extends this ramp up time even more, and you don't even notice when Slice and Dice is up outside of a WA on your screen. 50% more auto attacks, whoop! And the bonus energy regen that was bolted on to try "fix" people's worries of it gives a whopping 1-2 energy per second so it takes 12-15 seconds just to off-set having to use it.


Regarding the video. I see the point in devs making games like other games because they're out of ideas, or that specific game is more "fun". But WoW has been around for 16 years now. 16 years without any major changes would have killed the game long ago. When they're talking that WoW has become more like Diablo, loads of people were sceptical about M+ because "Uggh, it's just Greater Rifts in WoW", but M+ has been one of the best major features they've added to game. Along with world quests (bounties). Yes they're essentially dailies, but you're not just going to the same area every day, doing the same quests. It makes you go out into the world to do different quests for different rewards (you know, like an MMORPG). TBC had loads of dailies which were the same every day, and all they gave was rep and somehow people think that was better.


The biggest issue is everyone plays WoW differently now. Vanilla was "amazing" because it was ground breaking and new. No one really knew what they were doing and there was so much exploration because the levelling was such a big part of the game. People have nostalgia goggles on over the feeling they had when they played Vanilla, demonstrated by how Classic is currently played. So many people rushed to 60 and all the end game content. You cannot tell me that retail's problem is "the modern zerg rush" gameplay when that's exactly how people play Classic now. What was it, 6 days for "world first" MC which included the levelling and then BWL taking 30 minutes?
The world first 60 was also a Mage who just AoE farmed for hours on end (at least for a lot of the levels), that is not someone who is enjoying the game for what it was 16 years ago.

The game has changed with the times. Some changes have been bad, sure. But overall, it's been for the better. How else has it survived for 16 years?

You're asking not to alienate original players (who a lot have long gone) who enjoyed the playstyle from all those years ago. I can make the same argument not to alienate all the people who are currently playing and enjoying the game for how it is now by going backwards. It's easier to move forward and adapt, than to walk backwards.

"and how that alienates the MMO audience that prefers more tactical gameplay, while action RPG audiences already have other great games that they can go play."

This other audience also have other great games they can go play, INCLUDING the original WoW that's "better in every way". That is the definition of having your cake and eating it, then trying to steal everyone else's.