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  1. #541
    Elemental Lord zealo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Hence the Indoctrination theory. The game effectively ends with Harbinger shooting Shepard as they storm the portal to the citadel, everything after that happens purely in shepherds unconscious head.
    Indoctrination Theory has been explicitly confirmed by bioware devs to not have been their intention with the ME3 ending.

    For as interesting as that theory might be, it can safely be discarded as something the game didn't do.

  2. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by zealo View Post
    Indoctrination Theory has been explicitly confirmed by bioware devs to not have been their intention with the ME3 ending.

    For as interesting as that theory might be, it can safely be discarded as something the game didn't do.
    fortunately my own head canon doesn't require permission from the devs.
    It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death

  3. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Its the only possible ending where Shepard could even remotely survive.

    I'd like to think the Leviathan's are using their powers on you to test you and see if someone could actually save their asses from having to hide all the time. It's basically indoctrination except done by the "good guys".

    The most hated and illogical thing in the game was 3's ending but yeah lets spend 10 minutes slapping a remaster together and removing Miranda's ass instead of fixing the actual problem with the game which if they retconned could allow them to do an actual Mass Effect 4 set in our galaxy. I just wonder if this was an EA mandate or if Bioware is pumping this out in an effort to appease EA and not shut em down after the failure of Anthem.



    SYNTHESIS
    noun
    1.
    the combination of ideas to form a theory or system.

    Synthesis is the combination of the biological and artificial. Which a pathfinder is.

    "The first Pathfinder neural implants were created by Dr. Ellen Ryder, a pioneer in human biotic implant design. While biotic implants bolster and focus electrical signals along the nervous system, Pathfinder implants go a step further by connecting to not only the nervous system, but also circulation, endocrine function, and exteroceptive senses. Generally however, the Andromeda Initiative has safety protocols installed on the Pathfinder's implant that restrict SAM's access to the Pathfinder's physiology.

    Synced with an artificial intelligence, the implants reveal their full potential. The implant is a two-way connection, giving full insight into the host's physical and mental state, while allowing it to generate and alter electrical signals along the host's neural pathways that the body processes as its own. This information exchange is managed through quantum entanglement communicators, ensuring realtime syncing between host and AI no matter the distance.

    Alec Ryder created SAM with the belief that the quarians' mistake with the geth was not creating AI that integrated with organics and that SAM would ensure a symbiotic relationship. However, Ambassador Anita Goyle refused to defy the Citadel Council's edicts and the Systems Alliance dishonorably discharged Alec for his AI research. Nonetheless, Alec persisted in the development of SAM. The Initiative deemed the development of SAM vital to their mission and aided Alec in designing the AI in secret."


    "One such technology unique to the Hyperion SAM is the profiles feature. This allows SAM to enhance the Pathfinder's capabilities during combat, possible only by overriding his safety protocols and gaining unrestricted access to his host's physiology."

    I'm not positive but I'm pretty sure it wasn't A.I. they were reacting to but the activation of Relays which is why they built them so they would know when space faring species got to the point they should be harvested as well as what tech they would be using.
    no, I'm pretty sure they were reacting to AI.

    SAM having acess to physiology to act as a very advanced performance drug is NOT synthesis as its described by the catalyst. pathfinder is NOT a combination of technology and organic anymore then any other person using technology in any way. a person with advanced limb replacement that reacts to neural impulses to act as a living limb - something we already have, is not synthesis. symbiotic relationship does NOT require a persons essence to be merge of melded or whatever bullshit they are calling it via magical catalyst wave

    we.

    are.

    debating.

    your. headcanon.

    its fine to have a headcanon. I have plenty of my own, small and large.

    your headcanons allow your to headwave to insanely creepy factors of synthesis as its shown in game. that's fine. but. its. your. headcanons.

    becasue guess what? EVEN IF YOU GO WITH YOUR HEADCANON THAT PATHFINDER IS THE SAME AS REAPER SYNTHESIS, THIS IS AN INDIVIDUAL GIVING CONSENT TO HAVE AI HAVE ACESS TO THEM. ITS NOT THE ENTIRE GALAXY HAVING THIS THRUST ON THEM WITHOUT SO MUCH AS A WARNING. you can NOT handwave this lack of consent.

    and before you say anything - entire galaxy united to DESTROY the reapers. everyone fighting in that war, KNEW that they might die in it, that destruction WILL happen. when Shepard destroys the Reapers, they are not violating anyone's consent, they are doing exactly as they all agreed - ending that war by removing reapers out of the equation. when Shepard controls the reapers as dumb as that whole premise is, Catalyst being representative of the consciousness of all Reapers (according to him) gives consent to control by offering it and agreeing to it as one of the possible outcomes. only synthesis is a violation of consent.
    Last edited by Witchblade77; 2021-02-27 at 04:03 PM.

  4. #544
    Could we please stop bringing up the synthesis ending? It's just so god damn dumb, and gets dumber the more you think about it.

    Let's solve the conflict between synthetic lifeforms and biological lifeforms by sprinkling computer bits into every fleshy thing, and fleshy bits into every machine!

    What's even the difference between a synthetic lifeform and biological lifeform (a questioned also brought up concerning the Geth in ME1, to then, sadly, never be brought up again)? Is this some sort of thing that's spread to all lifeforms in the galaxy? What about future lifeforms that evolve in millions of years? If it doesn't spread to all lifeforms and computers that'll ever exist past the synthesis event, won't that make it completely useless?

    To hell with synthesis. It's such a brainfart and underlines that the (2) people writing the ending had no clue where they wanted to go to with Mass Effect.
    Last edited by Elkas; 2021-02-27 at 06:52 PM.

  5. #545
    Synthesis was actual involuntary eugenics and it astounds me no one at Bioware thought about the ramifications of such an event, let alone make it the 'hidden good ending'.
    "It's 2013 and I still view the internet on a 560x192 resolution monitor!"

  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    Synthesis was actual involuntary eugenics and it astounds me no one at Bioware thought about the ramifications of such an event, let alone make it the 'hidden good ending'.
    They are Canadians. They are ok with forcing transhumanism on everybody simply because there's "trans" in it.
    All right, gentlemen, let's review. The year is 2021 - that's two-zero-two-one, as in the 21st Century's perfect vision - and I am sorry to say the world has become a pussy-whipped, Brady Bunch version of itself, run by a bunch of masked sissies.

  7. #547
    If "legendary" is as underwhelming as WoW legendries then it's the same game but some weapons get a 5% damage bonus.

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    no, I'm pretty sure they were reacting to AI.

    SAM having acess to physiology to act as a very advanced performance drug is NOT synthesis as its described by the catalyst. pathfinder is NOT a combination of technology and organic anymore then any other person using technology in any way. a person with advanced limb replacement that reacts to neural impulses to act as a living limb - something we already have, is not synthesis. symbiotic relationship does NOT require a persons essence to be merge of melded or whatever bullshit they are calling it via magical catalyst wave

    we.

    are.

    debating.

    your. headcanon.

    its fine to have a headcanon. I have plenty of my own, small and large.

    your headcanons allow your to headwave to insanely creepy factors of synthesis as its shown in game. that's fine. but. its. your. headcanons.

    becasue guess what? EVEN IF YOU GO WITH YOUR HEADCANON THAT PATHFINDER IS THE SAME AS REAPER SYNTHESIS, THIS IS AN INDIVIDUAL GIVING CONSENT TO HAVE AI HAVE ACESS TO THEM. ITS NOT THE ENTIRE GALAXY HAVING THIS THRUST ON THEM WITHOUT SO MUCH AS A WARNING. you can NOT handwave this lack of consent.

    and before you say anything - entire galaxy united to DESTROY the reapers. everyone fighting in that war, KNEW that they might die in it, that destruction WILL happen. when Shepard destroys the Reapers, they are not violating anyone's consent, they are doing exactly as they all agreed - ending that war by removing reapers out of the equation. when Shepard controls the reapers as dumb as that whole premise is, Catalyst being representative of the consciousness of all Reapers (according to him) gives consent to control by offering it and agreeing to it as one of the possible outcomes. only synthesis is a violation of consent.

    Can you not read? An Artifical intelligence in control of your body is most certainly synthesis. Synthesis is the combination of the organic and robotic. You could say its a different type of synthesis because it wasn't done by a space magic kid but its still a hybrid of the organic and synthetic. There's a reason why your version of SAM is special. Its because everyone except your dad wanted limiters on the AI controlling a humanoid. and again :"Alec Ryder created SAM with the belief that the quarians' mistake with the geth was not creating AI that integrated with organics and that SAM would ensure a symbiotic relationship." Notice what that says????

    You keep bringing up head cannon when I'm the only one of the two of us actually providing proof and quotes. It's your head canon that suddenly everyone is mind controlled and half robot and toilets are now sentient or what ever you think. Notice how she says as the lines between organics and synthetics disappears we may transcend mortality itself? All this shit isn't happening in a day like you seem to think. These are changes over time.

    Just because you want to justify the genocide of your allies and letting arrogant organic reapers rune lose all over the universe doesn't mean its not your head canon.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    Synthesis was actual involuntary eugenics and it astounds me no one at Bioware thought about the ramifications of such an event, let alone make it the 'hidden good ending'.
    There are lots of things that are "involuntary eugenics". Countries, wealth level, nature, laws, etc... You can't fuck someone if you don't have access to them.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2021-02-27 at 09:41 PM.

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic1962 View Post
    What i want to know is that if they do not touch the endings at all, which ending is then "cannon" for the next game. I personally ended with destroy / enough assets to get the little post credit armor breathe scene.
    Going by the kind of trailer where they announced the upcoming game, while not stated as from that game but more a the franchise is continuing trailer, or whatever blah blah, anyway, going by that you had deactived reapers, one in teh background and one se was walking on, so take from that what you will, aka the best option, destroy all reapers


    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    Synthesis was actual involuntary eugenics and it astounds me no one at Bioware thought about the ramifications of such an event, let alone make it the 'hidden good ending'.
    Cute, when looking at the extincion of the species, those things kind of lose meaning. That said, I never chose that because I am a puritant when it comes to things like evolution or stuff like deus ex style cyborgs (gross as fuck) but in the game that being an option made sense, not that I would ever pick it, but the question of it not being an options is odd to me.
    Last edited by Sorrowseer; 2021-02-27 at 09:49 PM.

  10. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by Elkas View Post
    Could we please stop bringing up the synthesis ending? It's just so god damn dumb, and gets dumber the more you think about it.

    Let's solve the conflict between synthetic lifeforms and biological lifeforms by sprinkling computer bits into every fleshy thing, and fleshy bits into every machine!

    What's even the difference between a synthetic lifeform and biological lifeform (a questioned also brought up concerning the Geth in ME1, to then, sadly, never be brought up again)? Is this some sort of thing that's spread to all lifeforms in the galaxy? What about future lifeforms that evolve in millions of years? If it doesn't spread to all lifeforms and computers that'll ever exist past the synthesis event, won't that make it completely useless?

    To hell with synthesis. It's such a brainfart and underlines that the (2) people writing the ending had no clue where they wanted to go to with Mass Effect.
    yep. and agreed. and I'm so tired of arguing about it.

    people will believe what they want to believe. I'm just glad that they do not get to decide what is "best" for everyone in RL.

    edited to add

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/symbiosis

    neither of two definitions in any way implies BLENDING. and Rider/Sam in particular is the second definition of that word.

    the organisms are STILL separate. although.... Reaper's idea of "preserving cultures" certainly smacks of parasitism... since they essentially convert the species onto this one big organism of their own, while erasing anything and everything that culture left behind in a world. such good guys.... so well preserved as part of the homogenous reaper army... (or as mindless husks) /sarcasm.
    Last edited by Witchblade77; 2021-02-27 at 10:15 PM.

  11. #551
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    There are lots of things that are "involuntary eugenics". Countries, wealth level, nature, laws, etc... You can't fuck someone if you don't have access to them.
    That is waaaaay different than me going "I'm going to force you to be half mechanical without your consent or knowledge and there is nothing you can do about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sorrowseer View Post
    Cute, when looking at the extincion of the species, those things kind of lose meaning.
    If it was the only choice, yes. But you are given three choices, two of which maintains individual sovereignty over ones body. It's still an atrocious design for the supposed third hidden choice.
    "It's 2013 and I still view the internet on a 560x192 resolution monitor!"

  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by Elkas View Post
    Could we please stop bringing up the synthesis ending? It's just so god damn dumb, and gets dumber the more you think about it.

    Let's solve the conflict between synthetic lifeforms and biological lifeforms by sprinkling computer bits into every fleshy thing, and fleshy bits into every machine!

    What's even the difference between a synthetic lifeform and biological lifeform (a questioned also brought up concerning the Geth in ME1, to then, sadly, never be brought up again)? Is this some sort of thing that's spread to all lifeforms in the galaxy? What about future lifeforms that evolve in millions of years? If it doesn't spread to all lifeforms and computers that'll ever exist past the synthesis event, won't that make it completely useless?

    To hell with synthesis. It's such a brainfart and underlines that the (2) people writing the ending had no clue where they wanted to go to with Mass Effect.
    Yeah, there's no two ways about it, Synthesis is fucking stupid. Setting aside the space magic aspect of rewriting every organism in a galaxy in a second with no side effects (even the grass glows in the EC), the idea that beings being able to communicate more easily would lead to instant peace and love is ridiculous; see, the internet for proof, and in-game see the Geth for synthetics made of literally the exact same stocks but still entered a low-key civil war over disagreements. Or just every organic species ever having internal conflicts despite all being, well, the same species.

    To say nothing of the fact that, thematically, the organics vs synthetics debate was already solved- on Rannoch. Why they then made it the overarching story of the trilogy I'll never know.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by Witchblade77 View Post
    no, I'm pretty sure they were reacting to AI.

    SAM having acess to physiology to act as a very advanced performance drug is NOT synthesis as its described by the catalyst. pathfinder is NOT a combination of technology and organic anymore then any other person using technology in any way. a person with advanced limb replacement that reacts to neural impulses to act as a living limb - something we already have, is not synthesis. symbiotic relationship does NOT require a persons essence to be merge of melded or whatever bullshit they are calling it via magical catalyst wave
    Achieving Synthesis doesn't require the space magic of the Catalyst, it's just necessary for implementing it galaxy-wide, the same way you can control and destroy things without space magic, but it is the only way to achieve it across the galaxy at that instance. Pathfinder definitely fits what the Catalyst was saying about Synthesis - Organics striving for perfection through technology, Synthetics wanting to understand organics.

    We are debating your headcanon. It's fine to have a headcanon. I have plenty of my own, small and large. Your headcanons allow your to headwave to insanely creepy factors of synthesis as its shown in game. That's fine, but it's your headcanons.

    Because guess what? Even if you go with your headcanon that Pathfinder is the same as Reaper Synthesis, this is an individual giving consent to thave AI have access to them. It's not the entire galaxy having this thrust on them without so much as a warning. You can NOT handwave this lack of consent.

    and before you say anything - entire galaxy united to DESTROY the reapers. everyone fighting in that war, KNEW that they might die in it, that destruction WILL happen. when Shepard destroys the Reapers, they are not violating anyone's consent, they are doing exactly as they all agreed - ending that war by removing reapers out of the equation. when Shepard controls the reapers as dumb as that whole premise is, Catalyst being representative of the consciousness of all Reapers (according to him) gives consent to control by offering it and agreeing to it as one of the possible outcomes. only synthesis is a violation of consent.
    Are you absolutely sure the Geth volunteered to be genocided out of existence when an alternative presents itself? The Reapers certainly don't consent to being eliminated, or to being enslaved. You can't really accept permission from the being who enslaved them in the first place, not if you're trying to take some moral high-ground to do with consent.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Elkas View Post
    Could we please stop bringing up the synthesis ending? It's just so god damn dumb, and gets dumber the more you think about it.

    Let's solve the conflict between synthetic lifeforms and biological lifeforms by sprinkling computer bits into every fleshy thing, and fleshy bits into every machine!

    What's even the difference between a synthetic lifeform and biological lifeform (a questioned also brought up concerning the Geth in ME1, to then, sadly, never be brought up again)? Is this some sort of thing that's spread to all lifeforms in the galaxy? What about future lifeforms that evolve in millions of years? If it doesn't spread to all lifeforms and computers that'll ever exist past the synthesis event, won't that make it completely useless?

    To hell with synthesis. It's such a brainfart and underlines that the (2) people writing the ending had no clue where they wanted to go to with Mass Effect.
    The Catalyst differentiates them by saying that Organics strive for perfection through technology and Synthetics strive to understand Organics, to know what it is like to "be alive." I also think (and it's been a while since I played ME2 so my memory is a bit hazy) Legion explains how the Geth are superior to Organics because of their ability to form "collectives," group together to flawlessly share information and abilities, I took that to be one of the main things Organics would need to strive for as they reach for perfection.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    Synthesis was actual involuntary eugenics and it astounds me no one at Bioware thought about the ramifications of such an event, let alone make it the 'hidden good ending'.
    It really wasn't, unless you want to imagine it that way.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    Yeah, there's no two ways about it, Synthesis is fucking stupid. Setting aside the space magic aspect of rewriting every organism in a galaxy in a second with no side effects (even the grass glows in the EC), the idea that beings being able to communicate more easily would lead to instant peace and love is ridiculous; see, the internet for proof, and in-game see the Geth for synthetics made of literally the exact same stocks but still entered a low-key civil war over disagreements. Or just every organic species ever having internal conflicts despite all being, well, the same species.

    To say nothing of the fact that, thematically, the organics vs synthetics debate was already solved- on Rannoch. Why they then made it the overarching story of the trilogy I'll never know.
    This is why Synthesis isn't mind-control like people say, it doesn't necessarily lead to peace and love and zero conflict in the galaxy forever, beings can still have disagreements even if they are communicating perfectly with each other. The peace shown in the aftermath of the Reaper war is the result of the galaxy coming together and surviving an OCP with a real existential threat, you see similar scenes of peace and joy with high-readiness Destroy.

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by NoiseTank13 View Post
    That is waaaaay different than me going "I'm going to force you to be half mechanical without your consent or knowledge and there is nothing you can do about it.



    If it was the only choice, yes. But you are given three choices, two of which maintains individual sovereignty over ones body. It's still an atrocious design for the supposed third hidden choice.
    Yup as I said, another option.

  15. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by Dhrizzle View Post


    This is why Synthesis isn't mind-control like people say, it doesn't necessarily lead to peace and love and zero conflict in the galaxy forever, beings can still have disagreements even if they are communicating perfectly with each other. The peace shown in the aftermath of the Reaper war is the result of the galaxy coming together and surviving an OCP with a real existential threat, you see similar scenes of peace and joy with high-readiness Destroy.
    The Catalyst outright tells us it would bring an end to conflict and make the Reaper's cycle unnecessary because at last organics and synthetics (or creator and created if you wanna get pedantic, in ME they're one and the same) will stop competing for resources and murder each other; call it what you want, considering the absolute state of the ME galaxy prior to the Reapers coming I call it peace and love.

    Doesn't help of course that we're only told these things rather than shown; whereas Destroy's outcome is pretty explicit and requires little showing, Control and especially Synthesis leaves far too many questions hanging in the air to be satisfying IMO.
    It is all that is left unsaid upon which tragedies are built -Kreia

  16. #556
    On my first playthrough I had none of the DLC unlocked and didn't do a 100% playthrough, and I had no idea why the Galaxy Readiness was showing 50%, so I did none of the multiplayer to raise it before starting the final missions. Suffice to say I didn't even have the synthesis ending unlocked, and of the choices between control and destroy, control didn't even seem like an option.

    As benevolent as my 100% paragon Shepherd might be, there's nothing to indicate control isn't just a plot for the reapers to in turn control Shepherd with indoctrination. I've basically spent half the game fighting Cerberus to prevent a control ending.

    That effectively left me with destroy ending as my only viable choice, and I didn't even get the good version of it with Shepherd breathing at the end.

    2nd playthrough I did 100% including all DLC, as well as playing multiplayer to raise my galaxy readiness to 100%. Didn't even realize there was a third option until Synthesis popped up. I rather liked the Geth after reuniting them with the Quarians and Legion being my favourite squad mate, so the destroy ending never sat well with me. Synthesis seemed promising in that regard, and I don't recall ever second guessing that choice.

    It's ultimately "just a video game" so all the RL moral implications people like to apply to it don't actually matter. Synthesis is the magically good ending where everyone lived happily ever after and that's frankly all it ever meant for me.
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  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by Jastall View Post
    The Catalyst outright tells us it would bring an end to conflict and make the Reaper's cycle unnecessary because at last organics and synthetics (or creator and created if you wanna get pedantic, in ME they're one and the same) will stop competing for resources and murder each other; call it what you want, considering the absolute state of the ME galaxy prior to the Reapers coming I call it peace and love.

    Doesn't help of course that we're only told these things rather than shown; whereas Destroy's outcome is pretty explicit and requires little showing, Control and especially Synthesis leaves far too many questions hanging in the air to be satisfying IMO.
    we are talking about the catalyst and reapers, that same ones that decided that to prevent synthetics to destroys organics, they (synthetics) were going to destroys organics.... I don't know if it's the levianthans themselves or they overdosed on mind control slaves that did the programming, but I wouldn't trust them further than Conrad can throw a krogan.

    Not because the Catalyst is lying or anything, but because they have one big glitch in their programming when you look at the reason for the cycle or the "explanation" that harvesting a race into genetic paste to feed new reapers if "saving" those races. history? culture ? sure saved all that from destruction did ya ?

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