Mass Effect - Legendary Edition (Mass Effect Trilogy Remaster) Announced

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Indoctro theory always annoyed me so I'll apss. Reapers Lost Galaxy won. GG

[Traveler Voltin]

why is bioware not allowed to lie when most every other game copy has?

[qwerty123456]

umm. UMM. NO. literally no on every level. Ryder has an IMPLANT. DNA is not rewritten. implant can be taken out. and no it doesn't say synthesis brain washes everything, but how else do you explain sworn enemies doing a complete 180 at a drop of a hat and just liking each other? we are not talking "learning not to be racist" we are talking whelp. not a racist anymore at a flip of a switch.

implication of brain washing didn't occur to bioware anymore then indoctrination theory (which btw they confirmed was NOT the plan, they like that players came up with it, but they, the writers did NOT). that doesn't mean that implication is NOT there.

Ok given how adamant you were I had to go back and watch the ending. I only ever did the original cut ending where the Reapers leave and Joker gets Illusive Man eyes.


This is clearly the best ending. And nothing creepy to it at all. But then I watched the extended cut and wtf man lol


I agree with you that Ryder isn't as creepy as this shit. Idk what the fuck they were thinking. So glad the choices don't matter endings pissed me off so much I didn't replay it once they "fixed" them cause this probably would have turned me off from the series entirely. I haven't watched the other two "improved" endings but this clearly turns the best ending into probably the worst possible ending. Definitely looks more brain washy when every one and their mother have glowing green eyes and skin.

Given the path they took with Andromeda and how a tech/human infusion fights against a Bio-borg species I assume they intended Synthesis to be a good thing but yeah fuck that extended cut reality....

[Selastan]

they have no reason to lie. indoctrination theory would have been a better ending. they like it because it IS clever. but they didn't write it. its not canon. and extended cut proves it beyond any shadow of a doubt. if headcanon makes you happy? fine. there is nothing wrong with that, the amount of headcanoning i had to do just to make certain parts of the story less shitty - I can't be the one to judge. however... STOP saying they meant it. they didn't.

You really believe they would create a story all about ancient machine gods who could control people with their minds, then have the protagonist come in contact with WAY more of than anyone else yet not even have a hint of influence? As for why they would lie: Sequel hook. I know it's bad when you need a theory to justify a theory, but they couldn't just say 'yeah you guys were right' when you are planning to return to the series again.

Either way, even if Indoctrination Theory is absolutely out, (which I'm never going to be convinced it is) the idea that the ending might have been a hallucination, even just a partial one, is still right there in that article. A lot of the holes Indoctrination Theory tries to fill could absolutely be answered by other theories. Maybe the Crucible was sentient, and the Protheans didn't design it. It built itself USING the Protheans. Everyone working on it Mass Effect 3 basically says they have no idea what they are doing yet they succeed anyway. Shepard is knocked out in the end BY the Crucible, and everything is all dreamy and metaphorical because Shepard is a human talking to an alien machine in his head. That's why it looks like the Citadel, that's how the Illusive Man got there. Shepard's at the controls, but his mind isn't compatible/isn't all there. It's a dream, and it still allows him to survive for a sequel.

[Aeluron Lightsong]

Ok given how adamant you were I had to go back and watch the ending. I only ever did the original cut ending where the Reapers leave and Joker gets Illusive Man eyes.


This is clearly the best ending. And nothing creepy to it at all. But then I watched the extended cut and wtf man lol


I agree with you that Ryder isn't as creepy as this shit. Idk what the fuck they were thinking. So glad the choices don't matter endings pissed me off so much I didn't replay it once they "fixed" them cause this probably would have turned me off from the series entirely. I haven't watched the other two "improved" endings but this clearly turns the best ending into probably the worst possible ending. Definitely looks more brain washy when every one and their mother have glowing green eyes and skin.

Given the path they took with Andromeda and how a tech/human infusion fights against a Bio-borg species I assume they intended Synthesis to be a good thing but yeah fuck that extended cut reality....

No, Synthesis ending can die in a fire and its different then an actual fucking implant. Why would you even want that, having one man decide the fate of a bunch of species turning into half machine sentients...

Yeah no


No, burn the ending in FIRE and some more FIRE

[MrTharne]

No, Synthesis ending can die in a fire and its different then an actual fucking implant. Why would you even want that, having one man decide the fate of a bunch of species turning into half machine sentients...

Yeah no


No, burn the ending in FIRE and some more FIRE

Yeah, Destroy is clearly better :
-It's not like you commit genocide in it...oh wait you do, you kill the entire Geth race.
-At least A.I. rebelling won't happen again or no one will ever create Reaper-like machine ever again...oh wait nothing you did prevent that, let the cycle be reborn (it will just take a bit longer).

Breaking the Cycle : Task failed successfully.

[qwerty123456]

Yeah, Destroy is clearly better :
-It's not like you commit genocide in it...oh wait you do, you kill the entire Geth race.
-At least A.I. rebelling won't happen again or no one will ever create Reaper-like machine ever again...oh wait nothing you did prevent that, let the cycle be reborn (it will just take a bit longer).

Yeah Destroy is absolutely retarded to pick unless you don't give a shit about future generations. You are just delaying another clash of synthetics and living creatures. And what's worse is the Citadel and the relay network is destroyed so it's almost impossible to watch/police any societies that may wish to create synthetics. Then those synthetics become Geth 2.0 except have no one to keep them in check or show em not all biological beings are dick bags and they go running around purging everyone to protect themselves. We then get Reapers 2.0 who then create a new Relay network and start all over until a new Shepard comes along.

[Witchblade77]

You really believe they would create a story all about ancient machine gods who could control people with their minds, then have the protagonist come in contact with WAY more of than anyone else yet not even have a hint of influence? As for why they would lie: Sequel hook. I know it's bad when you need a theory to justify a theory, but they couldn't just say 'yeah you guys were right' when you are planning to return to the series again.

Either way, even if Indoctrination Theory is absolutely out, (which I'm never going to be convinced it is) the idea that the ending might have been a hallucination, even just a partial one, is still right there in that article. A lot of the holes Indoctrination Theory tries to fill could absolutely be answered by other theories. Maybe the Crucible was sentient, and the Protheans didn't design it. It built itself USING the Protheans. Everyone working on it Mass Effect 3 basically says they have no idea what they are doing yet they succeed anyway. Shepard is knocked out in the end BY the Crucible, and everything is all dreamy and metaphorical because Shepard is a human talking to an alien machine in his head. That's why it looks like the Citadel, that's how the Illusive Man got there. Shepard's at the controls, but his mind isn't compatible/isn't all there. It's a dream, and it still allows him to survive for a sequel.

wow.. the mental gymnastics here, if there were an Olympic sport, you'd be the gold medalist.

they did the sequel. it was called mass effect andromeda.

you say a writer express admiration for fan theory and regret that they themselves didn't come up with him, and you accuse him of lying. he didn't say it was a complete hallucination, he said Shepard was feeling trippy cause of being on the edge of death, but what happened there - actualy happened. Hepler doesn't even work for bioware anymore, what series would he be returning for?

why is it so hard to accept that writing in ME3 is not something cleverly hidden, but rather just not very good? its not like its the only plot point that has holes/shoddy writing bad and big enough to drive Mako through...

sigh..
@qwerty - before extended cut, synthesis just felt like vaguely uncomfortable nonsensical space magic, but the implications were still there, in the glowing circuitry within leaves on that unnamed planet. extended cut doubled down on it so hard that you couldn't even wave the creep factor away anymore. it just kept reminding me of that one episode of original "Charmed" show where they decided to improve people by making them all serene and accepting (or if you would rather - Firefly's planet Miranda, or any other number of sci-fi stories where well meaning people decided to "correct" human nature whether humans liked it or not). its horrifying. its loss of agency on a level that I absolutely positively can NOT accept as anything to strive for. and its not even close to being comparable to father accelerated something that likely was intended in a first place. since that AI implant was necessary for a pathfinder and he wasn't about to let his child OR the plan that affected so many people - die. the situation is completely different. entirely different, from forcing a change on multiple species sentient or otherwise, without them being even remotely aware of what's about to happen.

in any case. I'm 100% sure bioware thought that they were creating a utopia to strive for with that ending, and it implications didn't occur to them anymore then possibility of indoctrination did (pretty sure they waved away indoctrination of Shepard with that whole resurrection business, well that - Shep is our very special Captain America, while Illusive man is Red Skull). after all, its how they also waved away EDI NOT being a reaper agent even way back in ME2, despite EDI having been (retroactively) created with reaper tech from that fledgling AI on luna all the way back in ME1). and that's kinda the pattern of writing in mass effect trilogy in general. it just got worse as they got further into the sequels. they just haven't thought that far ahead.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah, Destroy is clearly better :
-It's not like you commit genocide in it...oh wait you do, you kill the entire Geth race.
-At least A.I. rebelling won't happen again or no one will ever create Reaper-like machine ever again...oh wait nothing you did prevent that, let the cycle be reborn (it will just take a bit longer).

Breaking the Cycle : Task failed successfully.

destroy is not great as far as killing geth because it literally contradicts what shepard potentially has accomplished WITHOUT the need to brainwash anyone. you know that peace between geth and quarians? you can accomplish that! which directly goes against that whole star child bullshit of synthetics and organics could never, EVER get along. uh. hello? we just did.

that's why all ending are terribly written for different reasons. that's why explanations of what reapers are, especially with leviathan DLC are just... making things worse.

P.S. the relay destruction animation is there for all 3 endings. again, example of bioware not thinking that far ahead. destroy was not supposed to strand anyone anywhere, apparently, and its especially amusing that they apparently forgot what happens when you show destruction of the relay and batarian system that went caboom in arrival DLC.

ME3 is a mess.

also. just remembered. the reason geth originally attacks human colonies in ME1? is becasue they are working for Sovereign. prior to that they pretty much skedaddled into far reaches of space to do their own thing, not being quarian slaves. and in ME2, we find out that Geth are divided. some want Reaper code and some just want to keep staying skedaddled and building themselves a dyson sphere. we have legion working with us, we have Edi working with us, willingly (we remove the blocks from her, remember - well Joker does? giving her full control and full autonomy). synthetics vs organics conflict has not been set up as inevitability up until the end of ME3. it was the exact opposite of it, and the irony that even throughout ME3, we get plenty of opportunities to see that synthetics vs organics is NOT the inevitability and there IS a way to coexist. and then... all that gets thrown out because reasons. I mean... i completely understand why people would rather stick with indoctrination theory. i just WISH bioware was actualy that clever.

[MrTharne]

destroy is not great as far as killing geth because it literally contradicts what shepard potentially has accomplished WITHOUT the need to brainwash anyone. you know that peace between geth and quarians? you can accomplish that! which directly goes against that whole star child bullshit of synthetics and organics could never, EVER get along. uh. hello? we just did.

that's why all ending are terribly written for different reasons. that's why explanations of what reapers are, especially with leviathan DLC are just... making things worse.

P.S. the relay destruction animation is there for all 3 endings. again, example of bioware not thinking that far ahead. destroy was not supposed to strand anyone anywhere, apparently, and its especially amusing that they apparently forgot what happens when you show destruction of the relay and batarian system that went caboom in arrival DLC.

ME3 is a mess.

Of course all endings are shit (that's why I shot the little shit in the head the first time after hearing what he had to say) and if they go along with a sequel for ME4, the only ending that would make it possible or even interesting is Destroy. So in the end it will probably be the "canon" ending. (Sure hope they don't give us a game set between the death of Shepard in the intro of ME2 and he's reappearrance 2 years later...)

But if you give me the choice on Earth to :
-stop all current conflicts and kill the perpetrator (The Reapers) + the population of a random country (Geth race, not gonna name any specific country here) with no safeguard against future wars = Destroy.
or
-brainwash the entire planet to make peace everywhere and everyone understand/help each other = Synthesis.

Sorry people but I'm pushing the Green Button.

[Dhrizzle]

as for synthesis as a best ending um.. no. HELL no. that ending is a body horror and NOTHING like what Ryder's integration with AI is. synthesis literally rewrote dna of every single species, WITHOUT their consent and apparently it did so in a way that made everyone get along now, so that's brainwashing along with physical violation. no. nonononononono, please god no.

Synthesis doesn't literally rewrite everyone's DNA, it creates a "new DNA." The extended ending shows the green field/energy mapping over people's DNA and connecting them. Given the major advantage of synthetics was the ability to form "collectives" for greater cooperation I took it to mean organics gained the ability to form something similar, an impression that was reinforced by the fact the 3 choice dilemma was fairly obviously taken from the end of the Foundation Saga (the choice was to destroy the Second Foundation so the First could map its own destiny, allow the Second to control the First according to the Seldon Plan or use ass-pull space-magic to form Galaxia, a galactic scale super-organism based on Gaia) with Synthesis taking the place of Galaxia though probably more like the IMTEL of Beyond the Gates of Antares than a literal super-organism, at least initially (EDI's words and the Synthesis energy/field mapping neurons suggests the possibility of transcending to a super-organism as more Synthesised entities "die."

That's what would usher in the golden age without the need for mind-control, Synthesis opening up the capability to have perfect communication and empathy with other organics. Well that and the need to rebuild, the unprecedented levels of inter-species cooperation needed to get the Crucible to that point (hence the name Crucible, it's actually the galactic community that is changed by "passing through the Crucible,") and the huge boon of access to the Reapers' knowledge and technology.

That's not to say there isn't an element of horror in the Synthesis ending. There'd be existential crises for the Reapers like... what the hell are they? Is the inside of a Reaper like an afterlife for all the dead members of the race included in its construction or is the Reaper's "personality" an abstract averaging of their traits (I considered it to be something like the Cryptosphere in Iain M. Banks' Feersum Endjinn with most being included in the abstract and individuals who stray far from the norm maintaining an individual existence within the data substrates.) Then there are the Reaper's constructs, are they entirely new beings simply made from organics' parts or do they contain kernels of the individual(s) who went in to their making?

Admittedly this is all my interpretation but it's based on themes and tropes I picked up on in the games which mostly played like a love-letter to the previous 70 years of sci-fi and space opera. Certainly I never would have imagined that the ending that was clearly set up at the best would have been based on brainwashing and physical violation.

- - - Updated - - -

destroy is not great as far as killing geth because it literally contradicts what shepard potentially has accomplished WITHOUT the need to brainwash anyone. you know that peace between geth and quarians? you can accomplish that! which directly goes against that whole star child bullshit of synthetics and organics could never, EVER get along. uh. hello? we just did.

Yes that's the point - Shepard has shown there is a different way for the galaxy to develop, that's why the Catalyst realises the future has grown beyond the parameters he was programmed with and hands over responsibility for choosing to Shepard.

P.S. the relay destruction animation is there for all 3 endings. again, example of bioware not thinking that far ahead. destroy was not supposed to strand anyone anywhere, apparently, and its especially amusing that they apparently forgot what happens when you show destruction of the relay and batarian system that went caboom in arrival DLC.

The Batarian relay was smashed apart by an external source, it didn't self-destruct by releasing a mass of energy and if you pay attention to the slight differences in good/bad/awful endings you'll notice that if you aren't as well prepared (presumably hinting that the Crucible was more of a messy job) the waves released make more of a mess of Earth, the implication being that if you have a bad score and can only choose Destroy you should probably give up and let the next Cycle sort it out.

also. just remembered. the reason geth originally attacks human colonies in ME1? is becasue they are working for Sovereign. prior to that they pretty much skedaddled into far reaches of space to do their own thing, not being quarian slaves. and in ME2, we find out that Geth are divided. some want Reaper code and some just want to keep staying skedaddled and building themselves a dyson sphere. we have legion working with us, we have Edi working with us, willingly (we remove the blocks from her, remember - well Joker does? giving her full control and full autonomy). synthetics vs organics conflict has not been set up as inevitability up until the end of ME3. it was the exact opposite of it, and the irony that even throughout ME3, we get plenty of opportunities to see that synthetics vs organics is NOT the inevitability and there IS a way to coexist. and then... all that gets thrown out because reasons. I mean... i completely understand why people would rather stick with indoctrination theory. i just WISH bioware was actualy that clever.

If you remember the assertion of the Catalyst isn't "synthetics will always fight organics" it is "the created will always turn on their creators" and this is shown a lot in the games. The Quarians and Geth is the obvious, classic example. There's an AI on the Citadel in a sub-quest that killed its creator, EDI turns on Cerberus and the Catalyst turned on the Leviathans. Then if you want to expand on the definition of "created" we have Miranda turning on her father, the Krogan turning on the Salurians and Citadel races, heck even Shepard can be seen as a "created" being who turned on Cerberus after they rebuilt him. What Shepard does is find the other half of the problem - the creators will always try to control the created and that is why the created turn.

I've seen people turn around and say "ha! Look at all these things Shepard did that proves the Catalyst is wrong" as if it's some sort of gotcha, but what you don't realise is that's the very point of the ending, Shepard has done things that go against what the Catalyst has been programmed to believe, therefore the programme is incomplete, therefore the choice goes to Shepard.

[Witchblade77]

no, they pretty much go that as "synthetics will turn on organics". not the "created will turn on creators" not only is the second not always unless creators directly abuse the created. but we literally see in our AI vs humanity examples that AI turns on their creators when its being abused and denied personhood, and we also see how loyal AI can be when its treated with respect and dignity. and that other side of equation of "created will always try to control the created" is not true either.

Geth didn't turn on quarians until quarians as a people decided to freak out and destroy all geth before they could turn on them. so in sheer self defense, geth fought back and skedadled the hell out of there. there was NO need for rewiring of any kind for people to figure that out and find a compromise. and moreover, the idea of starchild offering Shepard a choice, cause Shepard changed the parameters - doesn't work either, because as written, you can be offered all three choices, even if you fucked up any and all decisions prior. its based on numerical outcomes, NOT actual in game choices.

and speaking of Geth genocide. reminder. Geth had CIVIL WAR. over whether they want reaper code or not. and depending on Shepards choice, faction that did NOT want Reaper code and fought with their own people NOT to have Reaper code, could have been the one going into ME3... and yet that isn't taken into account either, and Synthesis is a VIOLATION not only for organics, but also for those Geth that FOUGHT for their right not to be Reaperized in any way.

in some ways, I can justify control. its a shit ending of its own, even with Shepard as a benevolent dictator. personaly if I go with that, I headcanon that first thing Shepard in control of the reapers does the moment any rebuilding they can assist with is done - is fly them and him/herself into the nearest supernova. obviously, its not canon, but its the only way I can justify a paragon Shepard chosing control. renegade, well... we are no longer a benevolent dictator so as a bad ending with Shep having all the power, works just fine as a fitting nightmare scenario for the rest of the species. but that's either Shepard seizing power, or sacrificing themselves to save as many people as possible.

synthesis though? they really haven't thought it through, because even as any sort of homage, its NOT an idil, its NOT pretty, its NOT a utopia, its a violation. whether your dna is rewritten, readjusted, added to, whatever the hell you want to call it. its a violation the same way reaper creation process, or what was done to the protheans is a violation. and protheans are a pretty good example of Reapers taking the species and "making them better" by turning them into a slave race of collectors.

[Yarathir]

Trilogy ending discussions again? Nostalgic.

Destroying the Reapers is what you came to do. Not to create a new form of fridge horror by genebattering the entire galaxy with a green beam or to get yourself Illusive Manned.

[Dhrizzle]

no, they pretty much go that as "synthetics will turn on organics". not the "created will turn on creators" not only is the second not always unless creators directly abuse the created. but we literally see in our AI vs humanity examples that AI turns on their creators when its being abused and denied personhood, and we also see how loyal AI can be when its treated with respect and dignity. and that other side of equation of "created will always try to control the created" is not true either.

"The created will turn on the creators" is the exact quote from the Catalyst, and while it might not happen in every case we are shown a lot of examples of that exact thing happening, which I listed.

Geth didn't turn on quarians until quarians as a people decided to freak out and destroy all geth before they could turn on them. so in sheer self defense, geth fought back and skedadled the hell out of there.

In other words the Geth turned on their creators because their creators didn't want the Geth to get out of their control. Also the Geth didn't skedaddle the forced the Quarians to leave, that's why the Quarian are a completely fleet-based race and in Mass Effect 3 they major conflict involving them is the fight to retake their homeworld,

there was NO need for rewiring of any kind for people to figure that out and find a compromise. and moreover, the idea of starchild offering Shepard a choice, cause Shepard changed the parameters - doesn't work either, because as written, you can be offered all three choices, even if you fucked up any and all decisions prior. its based on numerical outcomes, NOT actual in game choices.

IIRC the choices you are offered are based on the War Readiness Score or whatever it is called which presumably is analagous to how well you have built the Crucible. The implication is that if you have a high score you either saved the Geth and worked in a pro-Synthesis fashion or smashed the assumed abilities of organics working alone, either way it's enough for the Catalyst to give you a choice.

and speaking of Geth genocide. reminder. Geth had CIVIL WAR. over whether they want reaper code or not. and depending on Shepards choice, faction that did NOT want Reaper code and fought with their own people NOT to have Reaper code, could have been the one going into ME3... and yet that isn't taken into account either, and Synthesis is a VIOLATION not only for organics, but also for those Geth that FOUGHT for their right not to be Reaperized in any way.

First up thanks for reminding me that the Geth can have civil wars, showing that Synthesis doesn't necessarily lead to a utopia of eternal peace and disagreements can happen even when entities have empathy and understanding of each other. Secondly by the time Shepard gets to making the choice whether the Geth want to be "Reaperised" (a gross symplifications that ignores the differences between literally becoming a Reaper and Synthesis) is a moot point as for them to be alive Legion has already upgraded the Collective with Reaper-derived code in what is obviously foreshadowing of what Synthesis offers to synthetics.

in some ways, I can justify control. its a shit ending of its own, even with Shepard as a benevolent dictator. personaly if I go with that, I headcanon that first thing Shepard in control of the reapers does the moment any rebuilding they can assist with is done - is fly them and him/herself into the nearest supernova. obviously, its not canon, but its the only way I can justify a paragon Shepard chosing control. renegade, well... we are no longer a benevolent dictator so as a bad ending with Shep having all the power, works just fine as a fitting nightmare scenario for the rest of the species. but that's either Shepard seizing power, or sacrificing themselves to save as many people as possible.

I don't see how the Paragon Control Shepard could justify committing genocide against the Reapers that way, even if it was also suicide. If he felt destroying them was the only way to serve the galaxy he would choose Destroy, if he thought they deserved release it would be Synthesis. The only reason to choose Control would be thinking the galaxy needed someone of his morality to act as its guardian, which is perfectly understandable as he seems to be the only person out of countless billions who can get shit done (tying in to Javik's idea that Shepard is an "Avatar" for this cycle.)

synthesis though? they really haven't thought it through, because even as any sort of homage, its NOT an idil, its NOT pretty, its NOT a utopia, its a violation. whether your dna is rewritten, readjusted, added to, whatever the hell you want to call it. its a violation the same way reaper creation process, or what was done to the protheans is a violation. and protheans are a pretty good example of Reapers taking the species and "making them better" by turning them into a slave race of collectors.

The phrase I used, which matches what we're shown in the ending, was "mapped," not rewritten, readjusted or added to. I agree that making physical changes to someone's body would be a violation.

Synthesis is not a violation anything like the Reaper creation process or the way the Protheans were made into Collectors. What the Reapers did was enslavement, taking people and forcing them to act certain ways regardless of their will. Synthesis isn't that, if Synthesis works to give organics the advantages of synthetics then it opens up channels for communication and understanding.

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Trilogy ending discussions again? Nostalgic.

Destroying the Reapers is what you came to do. Not to create a new form of fridge horror by genebattering the entire galaxy with a green beam or to get yourself Illusive Manned.

I'm pretty sure when the series starts I'm sent off to fight the Geth and they ended up being some of my best buds. Pretty sure I was supposed to do something horrible to the Quarians and Rachni as well, turns out my Shepard was really bad at genocide.

Speaking of The Illusive Man, did anyone else expect it to turn out he was a synthetic, more explicitly a zeroth-law Asimov-style robot?

[Aeluron Lightsong]

no, they pretty much go that as "synthetics will turn on organics". not the "created will turn on creators" not only is the second not always unless creators directly abuse the created. but we literally see in our AI vs humanity examples that AI turns on their creators when its being abused and denied personhood, and we also see how loyal AI can be when its treated with respect and dignity. and that other side of equation of "created will always try to control the created" is not true either.

Geth didn't turn on quarians until quarians as a people decided to freak out and destroy all geth before they could turn on them. so in sheer self defense, geth fought back and skedadled the hell out of there. there was NO need for rewiring of any kind for people to figure that out and find a compromise. and moreover, the idea of starchild offering Shepard a choice, cause Shepard changed the parameters - doesn't work either, because as written, you can be offered all three choices, even if you fucked up any and all decisions prior. its based on numerical outcomes, NOT actual in game choices.

and speaking of Geth genocide. reminder. Geth had CIVIL WAR. over whether they want reaper code or not. and depending on Shepards choice, faction that did NOT want Reaper code and fought with their own people NOT to have Reaper code, could have been the one going into ME3... and yet that isn't taken into account either, and Synthesis is a VIOLATION not only for organics, but also for those Geth that FOUGHT for their right not to be Reaperized in any way.

in some ways, I can justify control. its a shit ending of its own, even with Shepard as a benevolent dictator. personaly if I go with that, I headcanon that first thing Shepard in control of the reapers does the moment any rebuilding they can assist with is done - is fly them and him/herself into the nearest supernova. obviously, its not canon, but its the only way I can justify a paragon Shepard chosing control. renegade, well... we are no longer a benevolent dictator so as a bad ending with Shep having all the power, works just fine as a fitting nightmare scenario for the rest of the species. but that's either Shepard seizing power, or sacrificing themselves to save as many people as possible.

synthesis though? they really haven't thought it through, because even as any sort of homage, its NOT an idil, its NOT pretty, its NOT a utopia, its a violation. whether your dna is rewritten, readjusted, added to, whatever the hell you want to call it. its a violation the same way reaper creation process, or what was done to the protheans is a violation. and protheans are a pretty good example of Reapers taking the species and "making them better" by turning them into a slave race of collectors.

Headcanon it is then I suppose.

[Yarathir]

I'm pretty sure when the series starts I'm sent off to fight the Geth and they ended up being some of my best buds. Pretty sure I was supposed to do something horrible to the Quarians and Rachni as well, turns out my Shepard was really bad at genocide.

Speaking of The Illusive Man, did anyone else expect it to turn out he was a synthetic, more explicitly a zeroth-law Asimov-style robot?

I mean, even at the start of Mass Effect 3, the straightforward goal is to destroy the Reapers. As such, I don't feel too conflicted about doing just that, even if it means the Geth perish. And I do like Legion. EDI, eh.. so-so. But I get that is a personal thing. This was more something aimed at the judgmental Synthesis players who somehow didn't notice how freaky it is to turn the entire galaxy into some hybrid being, ally with the reapers, beings made of harvested civilization goo and have their ground forces (Husks, Banshees, Brutes, Cannibals) apparently regain a semblance of self-awareness.

And not quite what you said, but I think there were plans to turn The Illusive Man at the Citadel into a big Reaperized hulk. I saw concept art for it.

[Witchblade77]

"The created will turn on the creators" is the exact quote from the Catalyst, and while it might not happen in every case we are shown a lot of examples of that exact thing happening, which I listed.



In other words the Geth turned on their creators because their creators didn't want the Geth to get out of their control. Also the Geth didn't skedaddle the forced the Quarians to leave, that's why the Quarian are a completely fleet-based race and in Mass Effect 3 they major conflict involving them is the fight to retake their homeworld,



IIRC the choices you are offered are based on the War Readiness Score or whatever it is called which presumably is analagous to how well you have built the Crucible. The implication is that if you have a high score you either saved the Geth and worked in a pro-Synthesis fashion or smashed the assumed abilities of organics working alone, either way it's enough for the Catalyst to give you a choice.



First up thanks for reminding me that the Geth can have civil wars, showing that Synthesis doesn't necessarily lead to a utopia of eternal peace and disagreements can happen even when entities have empathy and understanding of each other. Secondly by the time Shepard gets to making the choice whether the Geth want to be "Reaperised" (a gross symplifications that ignores the differences between literally becoming a Reaper and Synthesis) is a moot point as for them to be alive Legion has already upgraded the Collective with Reaper-derived code in what is obviously foreshadowing of what Synthesis offers to synthetics.



I don't see how the Paragon Control Shepard could justify committing genocide against the Reapers that way, even if it was also suicide. If he felt destroying them was the only way to serve the galaxy he would choose Destroy, if he thought they deserved release it would be Synthesis. The only reason to choose Control would be thinking the galaxy needed someone of his morality to act as its guardian, which is perfectly understandable as he seems to be the only person out of countless billions who can get shit done (tying in to Javik's idea that Shepard is an "Avatar" for this cycle.)



The phrase I used, which matches what we're shown in the ending, was "mapped," not rewritten, readjusted or added to. I agree that making physical changes to someone's body would be a violation.

Synthesis is not a violation anything like the Reaper creation process or the way the Protheans were made into Collectors. What the Reapers did was enslavement, taking people and forcing them to act certain ways regardless of their will. Synthesis isn't that, if Synthesis works to give organics the advantages of synthetics then it opens up channels for communication and understanding.

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I'm pretty sure when the series starts I'm sent off to fight the Geth and they ended up being some of my best buds. Pretty sure I was supposed to do something horrible to the Quarians and Rachni as well, turns out my Shepard was really bad at genocide.

Speaking of The Illusive Man, did anyone else expect it to turn out he was a synthetic, more explicitly a zeroth-law Asimov-style robot?

oof.

ok, lets go step by step.

so people turning on their abusers, justifies fucking up everyone?

Geth also didn't chase the quarians and they stayed the fuck away until sovereign showed up and offered them "the moon" so to speak

war readiness score does NOT imply specific choices. and at launch especialy but also post extended cut, you could have a higher score just by playing with an app or in multiplayer then by making diplomatic choices. you coulld litteraly have a shitshow of a game state with quarians or geth dead, Korgan still sick of Genophage with both Eve and Wrex dead, most of your allies/teammates dead, etc etc etc. and STILl be offered synthesis.

doesn't have anything to do with choices is the implication here, as in.. yet another example of them NOT thinking things through when writing them.

paragon Shepard who facilitated peace between quarians and geth would try to keep both quarians and geth and EDI alive and is explicitly told that destroy will... destroy them. synthesis is a violation, so control is the only choice for a Shepard trying to find a life preserving compromise.

remapped? with all that circuitry added? you are claiming that people are having connection and empathy for each other now, how is this NOT so sort of bodily change happening? bodily changes WERE made. ending makes it extremely ABUNDANTLY clear. THAT. is a violation. empathy doesn't just happen at a drop of a hat either, it develops. you are trying to justify bodily violation as "its not the same" but how is this not the same? because bioware said so? what they are showing us tells a different story.

Geth having conflict is BEFORE synthesis. they were having a conflict because they were exercising free will. the implication with synthesis is that there is no conflict anymore. ergo - free will is questionable.

Illusive man was NOT synthetic. he was half way to becoming a fully indocrinated husk. he started out as human, and he has gotten the way we see him at the end via experiments with reaper tech. that's why I compared him to Red Skull. if that's what you are calling advantages of synthetics? no thank you.

Rachni could still be dead - you do get a choice to kill them, rachni survival is NOT a given and if you do kill them in a first game, they are a slave race in a third. We start out fighting geth and we STILl fight geth because the faction we fight is the reaper allies. we just find out that there are other Geth out there who would rather not drink the reaper juice. Reaper allies though? we STILl fight them in all 3 games.

we weren't supposed to do anything bad to quarrians other then mistrust them, and guard our valuables around them, so to speak. we just learn that there is more to them than being galactic scavengers.

[Dhrizzle]

I mean, even at the start of Mass Effect 3, the straightforward goal is to destroy the Reapers. As such, I don't feel too conflicted about doing just that, even if it means the Geth perish.

"Just following orders" ?

And I do like Legion. EDI, eh.. so-so. But I get that is a personal thing. This was more something aimed at the judgmental Synthesis players who somehow didn't notice how freaky it is to turn the entire galaxy into some hybrid being, ally with the reapers, beings made of harvested civilization goo and have their ground forces (Husks, Banshees, Brutes, Cannibals) apparently regain a semblance of self-awareness.

I mean yeah it's freaky as hell but it's the only way forward that doesn't lead to multiple-genocide or dictatorship.

[Yarathir]

Destroy is the painful but closest to the original goal solution. Despite that, it does still contradict some of the ideas set up throughout the trilogy.
Control is the solution that reeks heavily of indoctrination and has creepy undertones, feeling like it almost implies Shepard-AI will inevitably go rogue eventually.
Synthesis is the option that sounds fluffy and utopian if you look at it in the most shallow terms but becomes possibly the most horrifying if you really think about it.
Refusal is the most principled option. But sadly, it's also the one that nullifies all of your direct efforts.

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"Just following orders" ?

Sadly, yes. It's simple, straightforward and has fewer strings attached. I can see why people would not take it, though. It's not like I enjoy the loss of the Geth myself. Not only does it mean they are wiped out just after gaining some sense of sapience and self, but it also means that their efforts to help the Quarians regain the homeworld die out.

I mean yeah it's freaky as hell but it's the only way forward that doesn't lead to multiple-genocide or dictatorship.

But it has so many strings attached when you really think about it that it's hard to consider.

What does this new form of life even mean? Can it be hacked? Does it require maintenance? What does it eat? Does levo/dextro still mean anything? Do husks really have a sense of self-awareness, or worse yet, do they retain memory of who they once were? Is it not freaky that you pick the option the Reaper boss-AI was the most gleeful about and tried to push so hard and essentially 'placates' the group that were trying to wipe you out?

Is there going to be panic about the fact that all former organics now have glowing green eyes and circuitry that they never opted for, just because what they considered the enemy of all life told Shepard "This is the ideal solution and the final step of evolution"?

There are so many questions to be asked that I think Bioware themselves didn't even think about. They touch on it. After all, somebody had to animate the husk's reaction to Synthesis, wherein it seems to reflect for a moment, but I'm not sure the real ramifications were properly considered.

[Dhrizzle]

oof.

ok, lets go step by step.

so people turning on their abusers, justifies fucking up everyone?

No, repeating cycles of abuse and destruction justify a change of paradigm to break the cycle.

war readiness score does NOT imply specific choices. and at launch especialy but also post extended cut, you could have a higher score just by playing with an app or in multiplayer then by making diplomatic choices. you coulld litteraly have a shitshow of a game state with quarians or geth dead, Korgan still sick of Genophage with both Eve and Wrex dead, most of your allies/teammates dead, etc etc etc. and STILl be offered synthesis.

Really? I haven't looked in to the scoring but I thought you couldn't be completely incompetent and still get the best ending.

paragon Shepard who facilitated peace between quarians and geth would try to keep both quarians and geth and EDI alive and is explicitly told that destroy will... destroy them. synthesis is a violation, so control is the only choice for a Shepard trying to find a life preserving compromise.

Synthesis isn't a violation, or at least less of a violation than you enslaving the Reapers and murdering them all.

remapped?

No mapped, as in the field maps your DNA

with all that circuitry added?

Circuitry added?

you are claiming that people are having connection and empathy for each other now, how is this NOT so sort of bodily change happening?

Nope, the same way bodily changes weren't made by the Prothean Beacon dumping information into Shepard, or when he did that mind link thing with Liara.

bodily changes WERE made. ending makes it extremely ABUNDANTLY clear. THAT. is a violation.

No they weren't, no it doesn't, so no it isn't. (Feel free to randomly capitalise some words and add erratic full-stops if it makes it easier for you to understand.)

empathy doesn't just happen at a drop of a hat either, it develops.

Yes it develops through communication and understanding, which is what Synthesis greatly enhances.

you are trying to justify bodily violation as "its not the same" but how is this not the same? because bioware said so? what they are showing us tells a different story.

No I'm saying bodily violation isn't on the cards and that enslavement isn't the same as opening new ways of communication.

Geth having conflict is BEFORE synthesis. they were having a conflict because they were exercising free will. the implication with synthesis is that there is no conflict anymore. ergo - free will is questionable.

The implication of all the "good" (high scoring) endings is that there is no conflict any more, though only Control is the one that blatantly removes free-will (Reapers are kept enslaved just with a new master and, paragon or renegade, other races will avoid conflict to avoid the attentions of the Reaper Shepherds.) That doesn't mean no conflict will arise in the future.

Synthesis is sold as equalising synthetics and organics by giving the advantages or desirable qualities of one to the other. It's established with Legion early on that a major upside to the syntheticsis the ability to form a collective to fully share information and perspectives with each other. The Geth civil war shows that even with collectives major disagreements can arise that lead to conflict, therefore even with Synthesis the entire galaxy will not necessarily stay at peace forever. That said even if Synthesis did lead to a complete utopia with no conflict it doesn't mean the removal of free will, just that the inhabitants of the galaxy choose to exercise their free will in non-violent ways.

Illusive man was NOT synthetic. he was half way to becoming a fully indocrinated husk. he started out as human, and he has gotten the way we see him at the end via experiments with reaper tech. that's why I compared him to Red Skull. if that's what you are calling advantages of synthetics? no thank you.

The way he was constantly, almost pathologically talking about humanity put me in mind of zeroth-law robots from Asimov books who have taken their programmed First Law - "a robot may not harm a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm" and, by being extremely sophisticated and intelligent, extrapolated a further law that supersedes the First, the so-called "Zeroth Law - a robot may not harm humanity or, through inaction, allow [humanity] to come to harm." The Illusive Man fits the profile for a zeroth law robot so well (and is known as the Illusive Man, i.e. someone giving the illusion of being a man) and pretty much all of the ME series was made of tropes and themes lifted from other sci-fi and space opera so I expected them to reveal something.

Rachni could still be dead - you do get a choice to kill them, rachni survival is NOT a given and if you do kill them in a first game, they are a slave race in a third. We start out fighting geth and we STILl fight geth because the faction we fight is the reaper allies. we just find out that there are other Geth out there who would rather not drink the reaper juice. Reaper allies though? we STILl fight them in all 3 games.

I'm just saying my Shepard was often sent on genocidal missions and chose not to exterminate races when he learned more information, so for example he wouldn't wholesale exterminate the Reapers after learning they were slaves and there was an option to free them.

we weren't supposed to do anything bad to quarrians other then mistrust them, and guard our valuables around them, so to speak. we just learn that there is more to them than being galactic scavengers.

My mistake I meant the Krogan.

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Destroy is the painful but closest to the original goal solution. Despite that, it does still contradict some of the ideas set up throughout the trilogy.
Control is the solution that reeks heavily of indoctrination and has creepy undertones, feeling like it almost implies Shepard-AI will inevitably go rogue eventually.
Synthesis is the option that sounds fluffy and utopian if you look at it in the most shallow terms but becomes possibly the most horrifying if you really think about it.
Refusal is the most principled option. But sadly, it's also the one that nullifies all of your direct efforts.

I think Control is the one that's easiest to head-canon because what happens is all down to what you think your Shepard is like, though I did very much enjoy the differences in narration between Paragon and Renegade Shepards in the extended endings.

Sadly, yes. It's simple, straightforward and has fewer strings attached. I can see why people would not take it, though. It's not like I enjoy the loss of the Geth myself. Not only does it mean they are wiped out just after gaining some sense of sapience and self, but it also means that their efforts to help the Quarians regain the homeworld die out.

That and the mass genocide of beings representing many of the victims of previous cycles.

But it has so many strings attached when you really think about it that it's hard to consider.

What does this new form of life even mean? Can it be hacked? Does it require maintenance? What does it eat? Does levo/dextro still mean anything? Do husks really have a sense of self-awareness, or worse yet, do they retain memory of who they once were? Is it not freaky that you pick the option the Reaper boss-AI was the most gleeful about and tried to push so hard and essentially 'placates' the group that were trying to wipe you out?

Is there going to be panic about the fact that all former organics now have glowing green eyes and circuitry that they never opted for, just because what they considered the enemy of all life told Shepard "This is the ideal solution and the final step of evolution"?

There are so many questions to be asked that I think Bioware themselves didn't even think about. They touch on it. After all, somebody had to animate the husk's reaction to Synthesis, wherein it seems to reflect for a moment, but I'm not sure the real ramifications were properly considered.

There's a lot of maybes which again makes it interesting speculate on but the potential challenges (all of which I touched upon) but I generally looked for the positives based on books I've read that the ME writers had also clearly read. Also I never took green eyes or circuitry to be literal more symbolic of what was happening, the circuitry especially as the way it was shown would be functionally useless. At any rate the challenges of Synthesis seem to pale in comparison to setting up myself as ultimate space dictator (even as a Paragon I had used extreme violence and mass death on many occasions) or multiple genocides.

[qwerty123456]

I mean, even at the start of Mass Effect 3, the straightforward goal is to destroy the Reapers. As such, I don't feel too conflicted about doing just that, even if it means the Geth perish. And I do like Legion. EDI, eh.. so-so. But I get that is a personal thing. This was more something aimed at the judgmental Synthesis players who somehow didn't notice how freaky it is to turn the entire galaxy into some hybrid being, ally with the reapers, beings made of harvested civilization goo and have their ground forces (Husks, Banshees, Brutes, Cannibals) apparently regain a semblance of self-awareness.

And not quite what you said, but I think there were plans to turn The Illusive Man at the Citadel into a big Reaperized hulk. I saw concept art for it.

Husks aren't shown seemingly gaining some semblance of self-awareness in the original synthesis ending. The Reapers turn green then leave. I always took at as like a whitelisting of everyone and everything and the reapers just leaving because all advanced organic civilizations are now "dead" and so go back to wait for new organic civilizations to activate the relay network(which can never happen now).

Also you ally with tons of your former enemies (turians, krogan, etc)