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  1. #1

    Is too much lore being funneled out of the game?

    One of the things that made Legion the best expansion in WoW history was the absolute disgusting amount of lore surround the zones, artifacts and characters within in.

    It gave me hope, that perhaps Warcraft was returning to a time when from its lore manual alone I would get more lore than I would get from two "major" patches in WoW.

    But with BFA they're released what, like 3 books and a comic or two of side lore covering more important shit that we would never know about?

    Why do they keep doing this? At least give us the highlights in game and flesh out in books if you must, cause I mean, who the FUCK is Calia Menethil? What the FUCK happened at Garrosh's trial? Who and what the fuck is Yrel doing in Draenor, apparently going berserk or some shit?

  2. #2
    But legion was one of the worst expansions.

  3. #3
    5 threads in one day? Seriously? Could you at least make some interesting topics or is all of this pent up anger from being banned?
    Last edited by Throwme; 2020-11-09 at 11:42 PM.

  4. #4
    The Mag'har recruitment scenario is the stuff about AU Draenor, and Calia Menethil plays a part in the Priest Class Hall questline. The rest of her story is older than WoW or told in Before the Storm.
    I give bad feedback all the time, I just dont rage or give them shit. Paying for content does not gives you the license to be an asshole.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Jackson View Post
    It gave me hope, that perhaps Warcraft was returning to a time when from its lore manual alone I would get more lore than I would get from two "major" patches in WoW.

    But with BFA they're released what, like 3 books and a comic or two of side lore covering more important shit that we would never know about?
    So, let me get this straight. First, you appreciate additional lore outside of the game in said "lore manual". But then you complain about lore being outside of the game?
    You lost your own point in between two sentences right after each other there.

    Nevermind that a bunch of your complaints are actually handled in-game, you just never did that content.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Jackson View Post
    One of the things that made Legion the best expansion in WoW history was the absolute disgusting amount of lore surround the zones, artifacts and characters within in.

    It gave me hope, that perhaps Warcraft was returning to a time when from its lore manual alone I would get more lore than I would get from two "major" patches in WoW.

    But with BFA they're released what, like 3 books and a comic or two of side lore covering more important shit that we would never know about?

    Why do they keep doing this? At least give us the highlights in game and flesh out in books if you must, cause I mean, who the FUCK is Calia Menethil? What the FUCK happened at Garrosh's trial? Who and what the fuck is Yrel doing in Draenor, apparently going berserk or some shit?
    Legion, BFA and Shadowlands all have only one companion novel linked to the lore of the expansion. Most of the other written content outside the game is mostly irrelevant to the story being told. Previous expansions had a lot more books. The animated shorts bring way more to the table than the short stories. Most of these shorts are shown in game now.

    I do agree that some key lore moments should have been displayed in the game, or at least being told in some way with in game books. The issue is that most books are really character driven and focus on really specific events that can be hard to show in a MMO setting. Some intimate moments or characters thoughts won't feel the same way with our PC in the mix. This is a feeling I got while reading Shadows Rising. I thought that some of this stuff would be great to see in game, but it's also not much content at all if we see it from our characters point of view. Most of the book is about what NPC are thinking, what they're afraid of, etc.

    The events from Shadows Rising that could be portrayed in the game are maybe the equivalent of three questlines : Talanji fighting to save Bwonsamdi with the Horde, Flynn/Mathias infiltration of Nazmir and Turalyon/Alleria task force to find Sylvanas. Only the Talanji one is really epic. The other two are mostly talking. A large part of the book is with Nathanos but couldn't be played by players (or maybe only loyalists) because of BFA ending. The rest of the book is Thrall and Anduin being melancholic.

    Maybe these questlines should be in the game in some way, with the books only adding more to the existing storyline with more character developpement when our characters aren't around. I'd like that for sure. But in the mean time, I also like to experience WoW in all sorts of ways and books are fun too. In the end, most of the book doesn't really impact what we need to know about the start of Shadowlands, except, maybe, why Nathanos is where he is (but it's his home, so whatever...).

    I agree it's not that simple with Calia and Garrosh's trial. I think Blizzard know it was a mistake and that's why Shadows Rising doesn't give to much lore and is much more about developping characters in a way you can't do in the game easily.

    Overall, I don't think reading the book is mandatory to enjoy and understand the lore for most players. I haven't read most of the Cataclysm era books and I don't really care for them. I know they give a lot more insight on Malfurion, Thrall and Varian, but I'm fine without it, honestly. I also think they should focus on adding way more story into the game in the first place because there is a lot more story to be told if they want to, but I'm fine with the books existing.
    Last edited by haiyken; 2020-11-10 at 12:02 AM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Jackson View Post
    cause I mean, who the FUCK is Calia Menethil?
    Take a guess.


    What the FUCK happened at Garrosh's trial?
    Read the book, you might enjoy it.


    Who and what the fuck is Yrel doing in Draenor, apparently going berserk or some shit?
    Read more books in general.
    Give a man a bro, he chills for a day. Teach a man to chill, he'll have bros for life.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post
    So, let me get this straight. First, you appreciate additional lore outside of the game in said "lore manual". But then you complain about lore being outside of the game?
    You lost your own point in between two sentences right after each other there.

    Nevermind that a bunch of your complaints are actually handled in-game, you just never did that content.
    Everyone got the lore manual, you didn't have to pay for it.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Jackson View Post
    Everyone got the lore manual, you didn't have to pay for it.
    You don't have to pay for comics or short stories either.
    Goodbye-Forever-MMO-Champ
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  10. #10
    The Lightbringer Darknessvamp's Avatar
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    I mean Blizzard has done this for ages and people have always complained about how bad it is, they just don't care and make the books to make more money. They certainly aren't made to support the story when they retroactively make them irrelevant with the expansion they're meant to be shoring up by changing character motivations without build up or actively rewrite what they already said happened and the reasoning or events that lead up to said happenings.
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  11. #11
    Blademaster Cyrako's Avatar
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    what % of the player base actually cares about the lore no one ive played with cares at all about it. they just want to play the game kill some big bad or each other.
    if anything killing needing to know 10000 years of back history about the game to understand what is going on, is most likely not in the scope of the average player

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Jackson View Post
    Everyone got the lore manual, you didn't have to pay for it.
    If only there was some sort of building that housed lots and lots of books that would lend said books to people for a limited amount of time, free of charge.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    If only there was some sort of building that housed lots and lots of books that would lend said books to people for a limited amount of time, free of charge.
    This is an AMAZING idea - Would you be interested in exploring the possibility of a joint venture? PM sent - lets make it happen!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Jackson View Post
    One of the things that made Legion the best expansion in WoW history was the absolute disgusting amount of lore surround the zones, artifacts and characters within in.

    It gave me hope, that perhaps Warcraft was returning to a time when from its lore manual alone I would get more lore than I would get from two "major" patches in WoW.

    But with BFA they're released what, like 3 books and a comic or two of side lore covering more important shit that we would never know about?

    Why do they keep doing this? At least give us the highlights in game and flesh out in books if you must, cause I mean, who the FUCK is Calia Menethil? What the FUCK happened at Garrosh's trial? Who and what the fuck is Yrel doing in Draenor, apparently going berserk or some shit?
    Highmountain relied on the Tauren being highly ignorant, perhaps with amnesia since they were aware of the hammer being stolen, as well as being incredibly selfish.

    Stormheim relied on everyone involved forgetting all Vrykul till then had been enemies and us just choosing to believe a sketchy one for "Reasons" and trusting others for being gold.

    Val'sharah relies entirely on Malfurion and Cenarious both having complete amnesia regarding the nightmare... and Tyrande being incapable of seeing obvious traps.

    Azsuna relies on the ghosts being sentient, but also entirely incapable of forming new memories.


    Legion was a complete mess world building wise when you stop and think about it.
    World needs more Goblin Warriors https://i.imgur.com/WKs8aJA.jpg

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Toppy View Post
    Highmountain relied on the Tauren being highly ignorant, perhaps with amnesia since they were aware of the hammer being stolen, as well as being incredibly selfish.

    Stormheim relied on everyone involved forgetting all Vrykul till then had been enemies and us just choosing to believe a sketchy one for "Reasons" and trusting others for being gold.

    Val'sharah relies entirely on Malfurion and Cenarious both having complete amnesia regarding the nightmare... and Tyrande being incapable of seeing obvious traps.

    Azsuna relies on the ghosts being sentient, but also entirely incapable of forming new memories.


    Legion was a complete mess world building wise when you stop and think about it.
    Legions story didnt interest me enough to stop and think about it at all. It was kinda cool seeing so many major lore figures involved in key roles, otherwise it didnt interest me at all.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    This is an AMAZING idea - Would you be interested in exploring the possibility of a joint venture? PM sent - lets make it happen!
    I was thinking of just throwing the books in a giant pile and have people sort through them to find what they want. There can't possibly be a better way, can there?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    I was thinking of just throwing the books in a giant pile and have people sort through them to find what they want. There can't possibly be a better way, can there?
    I own a shelving company, and have a few ideas. As for how to categorize them, I think the only logical way to do it is from biggest to smallest.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I own a shelving company, and have a few ideas. As for how to categorize them, I think the only logical way to do it is from biggest to smallest.
    By colour of course.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by arkanon View Post
    I own a shelving company, and have a few ideas. As for how to categorize them, I think the only logical way to do it is from biggest to smallest.
    I've heard a guy called Dewey has some pretty radical ideas.
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  20. #20
    Calia Menethil = Read Rise of the Lich King, Garrosh's Trial = Read War Crimes and I think the stuff about Yrel is from the Mag'har Allied Race quests. I agree with you to an extent but the reason for outside lore sources disconnected from the game is simple: money. Selling external story sources for the people that like those. Remember MOST players or at least this is the way it was for most of the game's history are "LOL LORE!" people also there are a lot of people who are kind of in between.

    Now, something you should realize is there are WAY too many "cooks in the kitchen" there have been writers exchanging hats in Warcraft since 1994. We got major titles in 94, 95, 96, 02 and 03 and those aren't even World of Warcraft. Counting expansions because they had some pretty heavy threads that were picked up. Then you have the base WoW from 2004 and every expansion from 2007, 2008, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016 and 2018. Each one of these probably had different writers or at the very least the team of writers had members moving in and out from project to project.

    We know story wasn't as big in 90s games and RTS games had campaigns with alternate story arcs and outcomes. Which the sequel would pick what was canon and the one after that with the books going back over all of WC 1, 2 and 3 to officially determine what is canon for WoW. People overreact that was more written out than there really was and they even blended missions from opposing campaign stories (did good on that). Also people confuse retcons with write ins. If they didn't change anything and only added details that change how certain things are represented that's not a re-write or retcon.

    NOW here's where I see it get messy. The novels, while they are canon, have certain details that seem to be more or less favored by different writers throughout the game's history. Another factor is maybe they didn't read one book or another beforehand. So when they wanted to make something new, newer writers would trample over stuff that was supposedly set in stone by an author or previous writing from the older expansions or games. Which I mostly hate but if they write a lot more higher quality stuff after I'm a little less salty about it. A good example is Calia Menethil. She was not in Warcraft 3 and was not mentioned. Then she pops up out of nowhere in Christie Golden's Rise of the Lich King book. Blizzard must have been scared to use her as they figured older lore fans would rage since she was just a book character who came out of nowhere and they're half right and half not. HAD THEY INTRODUCED HER in Wrath or at least mentioned her prominently it would have been better.

    So there is the problem. It seems there's a tug between the game's newer writers and the novel writers or older game writers sometimes. I mean they killed off pretty much all of Richard Knaak's characters. Rhonin, Krasus/Korialstrasz etc. The red shirt incident was Metzen saying "Isn't Falstad dead? From Day of the Dragon?" That means Metzen pretty much FORGOT the book Day of the Dragon (it was the first Warcraft book to be fair) which tells you how the devs think about their world and how people "adding into it" never seem to be seen by them as being equally important. Which is kind of understandable it's their baby. I don't think they wanted to add in Knaak's female dwarf beards from that book for example or Christie Golden's scene where in the Lich King's mind Arthas stabs Ner'zhul and becomes the "dominant" personality. Chronicle rewrote that and now Shadowlands HAS mentioned Ner'zhul and Arthas as only being minor presences while Bolvar was wearing the Helm of Domination. Which I like the best. I don't want Ner'zhul written out like Golden tried to do. If you read Rise of the Horde you understand.

    I'll end this with talking about the Legion. The Burning Legion is one of the coolest villain forces in fiction for me. Sure they're inspired by the forces of Chaos from Warhammer and sure the Twisting Nether is essentially Warcraft's version of The Warp. We're adults. We know the guys at Blizzard loved them some Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 while they were early in their careers and Warcraft is definitely inspired and that's a GREAT thing. I'd love to see a tyaranid Carnifex be forced to drink fel blood or have a prime Naaru be infested by the Warp but I digress. (Might not wanna see that last one.....) The Legion infinitely respawned from the Twisting Nether when Sargeras waged his war with them before imprisoning them in Marduum. Then they tell us in Legion that they were actually respawning from Argus because of the Titan's souls and destroying Argus allows us to for really realz kill them. DUMB. Keep them in a state that they could be used in Warcraft products way down the line but don't remove them. I could be wrong. Maybe they can still respawn from the Twisting Nether it just takes gajillions of years longer which would be fine. Maybe there are ways to speed that up and Argus was just one that was used.

    I also don't like the way larger islands and mini continents from the Warcraft 2 and Warcraft 3 maps were cut down to stupid Island Expeditions (not as awesome as I thought they'd be). There were islands like Balor and Crestfall that they could have drawn on. They ELIMINATED these places from being usable in the future. Something I liked about the first few expansions is you knew if you played WC3 that Northrend would be a thing and your imagination ran wild with the possibilities of what it would look like IN WOW instead. Tol Barad becoming a PvP zone? BARF. I was also bummed in Cataclysm when they just clipped off a lot of the extra land between the pre-Cata and Cata maps where I was mislead into thinking they were going to add lots of new zones. Like that big area between Dun Morogh and Stormwind/Elwynn Forest. My mind used to go wild with what could have been there. HUGE fumble to just make it a conveniently sunken earthquake smashed gulf between the zones. So in THIS SENSE. Yeah I feel like they are hemorrhaging lore that could still be useful later. I do greatly appreciate that it's all NEW NEW NEW. New names, new places, stuff we've never seen before because it's "completely" original at least in that it hasn't been mentioned in WoW before but did we have to kill off and tie up all loose threads from Azeroth, Outland, etc. I don't think so.

    I always wanted them to do something with the other side of Azeroth. I know the idea of adding one more LARGE continent is BLASPHEMY but as someone who played the RTS games as a kid I wanted just one more. Maybe a whole continent themed on the titans and like 2 or 3 other themes. I will say one thing that they need to do and not write the lore out of the game for. The ethereals as the game's second neutral race with "Unbound Form" which gives hella evasion for a few seconds or allows them to absorb spellcasts if it's magic damage. Rogues and mages would be a must and PLEASE let us see K'areesh. The ethereals you speak to in Outland in Burning Crusade MENTION their home world BY NAME and it has teased my brain ever since. If you know the circumstances of how that planet was destroyed/altered. It sounds even more interesting than Outland. Final note: Outland. How about the other islands and continents we never got that you can see in the Blizzcon 2013 map of Draenor and HOW ABOUT their counterparts floating around in the shattered version that is Outland? What's on the other side of those chunks? Is it still mostly spherical world with distorted physics that's just severely cracked or is it literal chunks of continents there.

    Now some unimaginative hotshot is going to say "Bruh you think too deeply on this stuff." but...that's how this stuff gets made and I enjoy it. I used to want to do this for a living so who gets to tell me what to think about right? Every one take care and if you made it to the end of this mega rant thanks. I like ideas man. Ideas are cool. I agree with OP to an extent and disagree a little too. Hopefully they will write less ideas out and write more in.
    Last edited by Bloodbayne; 2020-11-10 at 01:09 AM.

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