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  1. #61
    *looks at covid*

    Yea, no way the scourge could cause a new undead pandemic

  2. #62
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shrouded View Post
    It was always a huge plothole. There was no reason the Scourge couldn't just be destroyed one ghoul at a time once Bolvar took the Helm of Domination, but for some reason Alliance, Horde, Ebon Blade and Argent Crusade alike declared "mission accomplished" and returned home without actually getting rid of the threat to the world. No one in their right mind would leave the enemy nukes sitting on the launch pads once the war is won, but that's exactly what everyone on Azeroth collectively decided on doing.
    Nothing about Wrath made sense. I mean... we had airships. Bomb the scourge below into non-existence. Not enough airships? Uh... build more. Hello, we have the Vindicaar now. But no, we send ground troops.... who can be converted when dead. /sigh.

  3. #63
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    They would also descend upon each other battling for dominance, ultimately lacking the actual power to command the whole of the scourge without the helm. They would be a bunch of splinter groups that on their own are easily dealt with. Without the lich king there is no cohesion and without cohesion the scourge is not a world ending threat, just a regional one.

    Needing a lich king was idiotic back then and it is still today.
    Maybe, and maybe not. The overriding imprimatur of the Scourge is a hatred of life and the living, so I would argue sectarian strife among them would actually be minimal until Azeroth was a lifeless sphere - then they'd probably set upon one another with a will and establish a hierarchy, having slaked their majority of their hate. That wouldn't be very helpful to Azeroth as a whole, of course; much less the bulk of the living.

    I can agree finishing the job of conclusively ending the Scourge would've been better than the stopgap measure of anointing Bolvar as Jailer of the Damned, but then again if we hadn't have done that we probably would've been unable to contend with the current threat anyways (which is admittedly neither here nor there).
    "HUMAN BEINGS MAKE LIFE SO INTERESTING. DO YOU KNOW, THAT IN A UNIVERSE SO FULL OF WONDERS, THEY HAVE MANAGED TO INVENT BOREDOM." - Death, Hogfather

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Angrie View Post
    This thread would have been better if it read: Why didn't the red and green dragonflights just obliterate the scourge from the earth? Why fight the ground fight when we had CLEAR air superiority.
    Hahaha, Warcraft would be SUCH a different world if they followed any modern military tactics. I can't even remember the last time I saw actual calvary. We've got different kinds of mounts up the ass, but everyone dismounts to fight minus the odd mob. No sweeping charges that keep moving and swing back around.

    The Horde airship has THE biggest cannon in the game...anyone ever actually see it get used? The Alliance gunship is a mobile weapons platform...and the primary strategy is what? Land troops ASAP then sit back and wait. There shouldn't be a battlefield by the time those airships are done.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Nynax View Post
    Hahaha, Warcraft would be SUCH a different world if they followed any modern military tactics. I can't even remember the last time I saw actual calvary. We've got different kinds of mounts up the ass, but everyone dismounts to fight minus the odd mob. No sweeping charges that keep moving and swing back around.

    The Horde airship has THE biggest cannon in the game...anyone ever actually see it get used? The Alliance gunship is a mobile weapons platform...and the primary strategy is what? Land troops ASAP then sit back and wait. There shouldn't be a battlefield by the time those airships are done.
    A game about warfare, written by people who don't know the slightest damn thing about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Menolikeu View Post
    The story is actually well written if you go through and read all of the quests, which I am assuming you did not. Just the cinematics don't tell the whole story. We are able to kill the scourge, that was never a part of the story that we couldn't. While we are in the shadowlands the argent crusade will be recruiting members to deal with the scourge and hold them at bay until we can find a way to control them again. The Jailer is a huge part of the scourge's ability to run free. Dealing with him will fix the scourge issue, then later on in the expansion we will go after Sylvanas and we will get our revenge. The story is very well written if you take the time to read it, and actually research the story. Not everyone can follow the story line, but once you get a grasp of it. I doubt you could come up with a story like this on your own.
    Is this a copypasta? Seriously. The story is not well written. It's acceptable for modern video game content, sure, but it's still full of plot holes (that they could sometimes avoid just by not adding too many details) and of contradictions within character behavior and themes.
    Last edited by Koward; 2020-11-10 at 05:28 PM.

  7. #67
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    I understand that, but if no one took that crown up, but Tirion did get Terenas message it wouldn't be unthinkable if Tirion just told us directly what happened we would have enough time to counter attack that I believe. How will mindless scourge work for that matter? they just randomly ress? we dealt with most of the scourge or undead for that matter already.
    Difficult to say - but I assume the Scourge held in reserve would simply escape from their current enclaves and just run amok, spreading the Plague and killing randomly, increasing their numbers. Necromancers, Liches, and other greater Scourge who aren't mindless but still imprinted with the Scourge's hallmark hatred of all life would induct these new members into growing armies, putting them against their former kin until all life on Azeroth was extinguished, or the Scourge itself was decisively stopped. Then, assuming a Scourge victory, the Scourge would turn on itself in an attempt to establish a hierarchy, and would eventually empanel a new Lich King (or at least a new leader) to rule over an undead Azeroth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Just to be make sure, undead get risen if no one will pick up the crown?
    Undead beings existed long before the Helm of Domination did. You had Nathrezim raising the Kaldorei dead up as zombies all the way back in the War of the Ancients.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Afther the fall of the lich king IF the scourge would go rampage and we would know directly it would still count as a world threat how it's treated with blue and red teamed up and use all forces needed. For the greater good, sure the tention is there like always, but blizzard isn't shy for teaming up when it's needed.

    The tention will always be there, that's part of warcraft .
    Tension is a matter of degree - the Alliance and Horde have always been able to put aside their differences and defend Azeroth, but the numerous delays and false starts in the process are still going to get a lot of people killed on both sides. The higher the tension, the more difficult it is to finally set aside and do what must be done. This isn't really about victory or defeat, either; just the brutal calculus of lives lost in the fighting itself.
    "HUMAN BEINGS MAKE LIFE SO INTERESTING. DO YOU KNOW, THAT IN A UNIVERSE SO FULL OF WONDERS, THEY HAVE MANAGED TO INVENT BOREDOM." - Death, Hogfather

  8. #68
    My theory is that the Terenas that appeared when Frostmourne was destroyed was not the real Terenas. Whether the Terenas in ICC cinematic and the Terenas inside Frostmourne during the encounter were real or not doesn't really matter. My theory is that it was the Jailer's illusion to trick us.

    Imagine the situation in which the ghost of Terenas doesn't appear. Frostmourne is already destroyed, Arthas is dead. What would be the next logical step? Destroy the Helm too. But it was simply too early. The machine of Death might or might not have been broken at that time, but Jailer was not powered up enough yet - remember he recruits Sylvanas for a reason. So the Helm's destruction would probably not shatter the veil at the current state.

    How to prevent Tirion from shattering the Helm? That's right - let's use an illusion of his former king, one of the first victims of Death Knight Arthas, someone with "insider" knowledge. Let's tell this light-devouted paladin that his greatest enemy will swarm the whole planet if a new Lich King is not coronated. When you add up all of it, you're left with Tirion who never even questioned what Terenas said - he believed him in an instant, without even considering discussing it with the other leaders.

    It always bothered me that Terenas was able to just ressurect us, the heroes, just like that. Like, just why would he have such power? He might have been a powerful spirit, but it's not enough to redirect our spirits out of the stream of souls escaping Frostmourne. This clearly must have been done by someone who wields the powers of the Death itself. It could be just another trick of the Jailer, to further ensure that Tirion would obey what "Terenas" says, by ressurecting many "good" people, which, in Tirion's eyes, could only be done by the Light itself.

    TLDR: It was the Jailer, not Terenas. It was too early for the shattering of the Helm to have any impact on the veil, or the Jailer was not powerful enough yet. Therefore, "There must always be a Lich King (not really, just until I'm powerful enough)".

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Difficult to say - but I assume the Scourge held in reserve would simply escape from their current enclaves and just run amok, spreading the Plague and killing randomly, increasing their numbers. Necromancers, Liches,
    Right so in short, not to be that guy, but most scourge and undead were killed/burned by us and other faction long before we even went to Northrend and did so again in wrath. So some one would need to ress the undead to even start the rampage? That will take some time before they would even pose a threat realy.

    Their numbers would become dangerous yes if left unchecked. If we knew, we could have just cleared it all and leave the crown in the ice.. only to wait for some one to take its power.
    Last edited by Alanar; 2020-11-10 at 05:50 PM.

  10. #70
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Right so in short, not to be that guy, but most scourge and undead were killed/burned by us and other faction long before we even went to Northrend and did so again in wrath. So some one would need to ress the undead to even start the rampage? That will take some time before they would even pose a threat realy.
    Not really, no. Arthas' ultimate goal was to bring us to him and subvert us, not to kill us, and so we never faced the full brunt of the Scourge - it was a ruse to draw us out, to Icecrown Citadel, where he would ultimately kill us all and raise us as generals of the Scourge. As demonstrated by the current goings-on in the pre-patch, the Scourge has always had massive numbers held in reserve. They've been kept mostly in stasis by Bolvar up until now, and if Bolvar didn't assume the Helm they would've been freed to run rampant across Azeroth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alanar View Post
    Their numbers would become dangerous yes if left unchecked. If we knew, we could have just cleared it all and leave the crown in the ice.. only to wait for some one to take its power.
    Except I sincerely doubt they'd do that - they would follow their essential directive first, kill the living, before falling on themselves to establish a hierarchy. They'd be a united front until no one was left to distract them, then they'd set upon one another (after we're all dead or undead).
    Last edited by Aucald; 2020-11-10 at 06:16 PM.
    "HUMAN BEINGS MAKE LIFE SO INTERESTING. DO YOU KNOW, THAT IN A UNIVERSE SO FULL OF WONDERS, THEY HAVE MANAGED TO INVENT BOREDOM." - Death, Hogfather

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Not really, no. Arthas' ultimate goal was to bring us to him and subvert us, not to kill us, and so we never faced the full brunt of the Scourge - it was a ruse to draw us out, to Icecrown Citadel, where he would ultimately kill us all and raise us as generals of the Scourge. As demonstrated by the current goings-on in the pre-patch, the Scourge has always had massive numbers held in reserve. They've been kept mostly in stasis by Bolvar up until now, and if Bolvar didn't assume the Helm they would've been freed to run rampant across Azeroth.
    And tell us, where was he hiding this army. In Jainas vag?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Except I sincerely doubt they'd do that - they would follow their essential directive first, kill the living, before falling on themselves to establish a hierarchy. They'd be a united front until no one was left to distract them, then they'd set upon one another (after we're all dead or undead).
    *citation needed

  12. #72
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    And tell us, where was he hiding this army. In Jainas vag?
    All over the place? Did you see the cinematic about the raising of Sindragosa and the legions of undead she flies over? Undead all over Icecrown itself, all over Northrend. They have underground warrens and bunkers, they're burrowed into secret places and remote fastnesses. I mean where do you think the Scourge forces attacking right now during the pre-patch have come from? They were always there, biding their time under Bolvar's constraining influence.

    Also, as per the BlizzCon 2011 panel:
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    By the time of the Cataclysm, the Scourge is little more than a shell of its former power in Lordaeron. The Lich King is dead, the Scourge command structure all but wiped out, and the remaining legions of undead held in check by Bolvar's sacrifice. (Source)

    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    *citation needed
    Road to Damnation, pg. 3
    Icecrown and the Frozen Throne
    Journal of Archmage Antonidas
    Chronicle Vol. 1
    "HUMAN BEINGS MAKE LIFE SO INTERESTING. DO YOU KNOW, THAT IN A UNIVERSE SO FULL OF WONDERS, THEY HAVE MANAGED TO INVENT BOREDOM." - Death, Hogfather

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    All over the place? Did you see the cinematic about the raising of Sindragosa and the legions of undead she flies over? Undead all over Icecrown itself, all over Northrend. They have underground warrens and bunkers, they're burrowed into secret places and remote fastnesses. I mean where do you think the Scourge forces attacking right now during the pre-patch have come from? They were always there, biding their time under Bolvar's constraining influence.

    Also, as per the BlizzCon 2011 panel:
    Originally Posted by Blizzard Entertainment
    By the time of the Cataclysm, the Scourge is little more than a shell of its former power in Lordaeron. The Lich King is dead, the Scourge command structure all but wiped out, and the remaining legions of undead held in check by Bolvar's sacrifice. (Source)



    Road to Damnation, pg. 3
    Icecrown and the Frozen Throne
    Journal of Archmage Antonidas
    Chronicle Vol. 1
    All I see is headcanon from you, you keep bending everything around just so that you can claim that writers were right. It would be extremely easy to predict mindless scourge movement and setup killing grounds with baricades and artillery.

    And no, they wouldnt be able to ressurect those they lost even with necromancers since the bodies would be annihilated beyond use.

  14. #74
    There must always be a Lich King because someone needs to control the Scourge. Otherwise they'd "run rampant". It was explained.

  15. #75
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    All I see is headcanon from you, you keep bending everything around just so that you can claim that writers were right. It would be extremely easy to predict mindless scourge movement and setup killing grounds with baricades and artillery.

    And no, they wouldnt be able to ressurect those they lost even with necromancers since the bodies would be annihilated beyond use.
    Well I've cited sources, provided evidence, and explained and re-explained the rationale here - if all you can see is headcanon I can't really help you further, either you've willingly chosen to blinker yourself or you simply refuse any viewpoint contrary to your own. Also there's claim here that the "writers were right," and I'm not sure what you're even talking about in this case. Do you mean the reality of the story is not what the writers claim it to be (which would be an impossibility for fiction), or that the writers somehow changed their tune (which isn't in evidence)? What is your evidence that the Scourge would be easy to predict and eradicate without the control of the Lich King?

    The Scourge doesn't annihilate bodies beyond use, because it uses bodies to fuel its ranks - and if the Alliance and Horde have to do the dual duty of fighting the Scourge as well as annihilating the bodies of those that fall in the midst of conflict then they're going to be fighting an uphill battle on all fronts.
    "HUMAN BEINGS MAKE LIFE SO INTERESTING. DO YOU KNOW, THAT IN A UNIVERSE SO FULL OF WONDERS, THEY HAVE MANAGED TO INVENT BOREDOM." - Death, Hogfather

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Well I've cited sources, provided evidence, and explained and re-explained the rationale here - if all you can see is headcanon I can't really help you further, either you've willingly chosen to blinker yourself or you simply refuse any viewpoint contrary to your own. Also there's claim here that the "writers were right," and I'm not sure what you're even talking about in this case. Do you mean the reality of the story is not what the writers claim it to be (which would be an impossibility for fiction), or that the writers somehow changed their tune (which isn't in evidence)? What is your evidence that the Scourge would be easy to predict and eradicate without the control of the Lich King?

    The Scourge doesn't annihilate bodies beyond use, because it uses bodies to fuel its ranks - and if the Alliance and Horde have to do the dual duty of fighting the Scourge as well as annihilating the bodies of those that fall in the midst of conflict then they're going to be fighting an uphill battle on all fronts.
    Its like talking to a fucking brick wall. Can you at least make it possible to use ignore function on your posts?

  17. #77
    I've been saying this shit since the day i killed Arthas way back when.
    >theremustalwaysbealichking.jpg
    >put on the helmet
    >command all of the scourge to icecrown
    >firebomb everything to shit with airships and dragons
    >take of the fucking helm

  18. #78
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    Its like talking to a fucking brick wall. Can you at least make it possible to use ignore function on your posts?
    A brick wall that talks back to you at length and challenges your assertions? That's actually a person - but sure, if you don't engage with me I'll be sure not to do so with you (and I wasn't the one who began this exchange in the first place).
    "HUMAN BEINGS MAKE LIFE SO INTERESTING. DO YOU KNOW, THAT IN A UNIVERSE SO FULL OF WONDERS, THEY HAVE MANAGED TO INVENT BOREDOM." - Death, Hogfather

  19. #79
    Originally, the Lich King needed to exist in order to keep a psychic bind on the remaining undead that haven't been destroyed. As for why they weren't destroyed after Bolvar kept them in check, I'd imagine it's because of the Cataclysm taking everyone's attention away. Then, each expansion afterward kept Azeroth's attention. So it's not a plot hole, but it's convenient nonetheless.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by shuubu View Post
    I think they are implying that without the Lich king the Jailer is taking control of the scourge.

    But in my opinion they just butchered the best parts of their own lore in Shadowlands and this horror that started with the nonsense Shadowlands trailer is just abysmal retconning.
    I believe that is what happens. The Jailer does take control of the feral scourge. Similar to how Amon took control of the feral zerg at the start of Legacy of the Void.

    At the end of the prepatch chain (from what was on the PTR), you fight a mawsworn who is basically controlling the scourge, at least those in Icecrown

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Honestly it always felt shoehorned to me. Like they wanted to kill off Arthas but wanted to keep the Scourge around for future use so shoved the idea in to keep the Scourge as an entity.

    It never made sense to me that a scourge WITHOUT a leader would be more dangerous than one WITH one. Let's say that the scourge go on a rampage, okay sure why not. But would they not also turn on eachother? They should be mindless, aimless, and likely ultimately self destructive not somehow coordinated enough to seek out and wipe out life across the world.

    Hell if anything you'd expect the death of the LK to lead to more Forsaken type undead breaking free from the lich king's grasp.

    And even if the leaderless Scourge was such a big threat, why couldn't LK Bolvar say, round up scourge like cattle to have the scourge systematically destroyed bit by bit?

    It never really felt right to me.
    Some of the scourge that remained in the plaguelands did start to turn on each other. You even kill a crypt lord who thinks he can become the next "lich king" at some point with the cata revamp.

    But yeah, it did feel like that blizzard made Bolvar the Lich King for a "break glass in case of running out of ideas in near future".

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The "mindless" portion of the Scourge would be the immense rank and file of ghouls and lesser undead - there's nothing mindless about the greater Scourge such as Necromancers, Liches, and Death Knights. They're controlled by the Lich King but they're far from mindless and they're fully capable of making their own plans and so forth. This is borne out in Cata itself, when you have the Scholomance Scourge doing their own thing despite Bolvar acting as Jailer of the Damned.
    Yeah, the greater scourge such as Liches, Death Knights, necromancers etc are basically the equivalent to the zerg cerebrates following the Overminds death, or the Brood Mothers following Zerrigans disinfestation. Both were created to control individual zerg broods but still answered to a higher power (Overmind for cerebrates / Kerrigan for brood mothers). Following their respective leaders defeats, they became independent. The difference was that the cerebrates needed an Overmind to survive in the long term (hence why several of them merged to create a new overmind). Meanwhile the Brood Mothers either fought each other for control, or just went off to do their own thing. Even after Kerrigan began to take control over the swarm, some brood mothers like Zegara refused to follow willingly. However, both the cerebrates and the brood mothers still had control over their broods. Likewise powerful scourge agents can still take control over lesser undead. Which we do see in the plaguelands in Cata. Like how a crypt lord wanted to create his own scourge with blackjack and hookers.

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