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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    In this case, my surprise isn't on Apple's part, it's on Blizzard. The Apple silicon is so new, there's no metric available as to what the market share is and how quickly adopters will flock to it. Are people going to be hesitant and wait for Apple to work through compatibility? Are people going to wait for a second gen? Are people more interested in a 16 inch Macbook Pro and an iMac? I'm just surprised that Blizzard is jumping the gun on this is damn quickly.

    Please don't project stuff at me that isn't there. That is not cool.
    Ultimately it's just a case of facing reality. Even if M1 itself won't be enough, it's pretty clear where things are headed.

    Apple itself is going all in on this, they have a vested interest to make this good and move their whole ecosystem to effectively single unified architecture and Apple is big enough and influent enough to actually move the market in that direction. It's not just some yet another shitty fringe ARM laptop where they stick an actual tablet CPU/GPU and build a laptop around it as some afternoon class project for curious.

    Here you have whole Apple moving all of its product stack there and for Blizzard and others it will be a simple reality of either you comply or you lose that part of the market, it's not insignificant and whatever work will be done porting WoW there - they will need to do anyway eventually if they want any Blizzard games to be in future Apple machines at all.

    And as said before, it's really not only Apple there - it's ARM, that's a LOT more than just Apple. The incentive is there like never before, because before it was just what - make WoW run on phones as some kind of meme? Well now it's a whole different story - make WoW run on all Apple hardware AND ARM-based phones/tablets, even if that would require extra leap with different render API and such.

    ---

    As a side note, I don't get that guy directly above this quote. Who cares if M1 can run WoW at 4k - WoW is a game that's meant to run on a toaster, that's why it has so much reach. M1 clearly has all the CPU power it needs and if its GPU is not up to snuff (which remains to be seen), then for now it will just run WoW 1080p until 2nd generation of Apple Silicon comes, which will be pretty soon - you can bet. Apple's own ARM configuration can run Fortnite at 60FPS on iPad Pro, heck it can even run 120FPS on latest model with issues, but it can get there. And M1 is a lot beefier than that.

    You think it would not be able to run WoW at 60FPS on low settings native resolution? Funny...

    Speaking of which: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/ap...cs-performance

    Seems like M1 has GPU juice on par with 1050Ti and even greater - I can assure you - that is more than enough to run WoW at 60FPS. My MacBook Pro runs WoW natively on GPU a bit worse than that - RX560.
    Last edited by Gaidax; 2020-11-15 at 09:23 PM.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    The Apple silicon is so new, there's no metric available as to what the market share is and how quickly adopters will flock to it. Are people going to be hesitant and wait for Apple to work through compatibility? Are people going to wait for a second gen? Are people more interested in a 16 inch Macbook Pro and an iMac? I'm just surprised that Blizzard is jumping the gun on this so damn quickly.

    Please don't project stuff at me that isn't there. That is not cool.
    Lol what? That's like saying "Intel i7-970 is so new, we don't know the adoption, yada yada" - like what? We're at i7-10whatever now.

    Who cares about M1 adoption, next CPU will be M2, then M3, then M4, then M5, then M6, then M7, then M8. Just port to ARM and be done with it. There's no x86 in the future.

    Personally I'm waiting for RDNA2 cards and next MBP and iMac Pro will still be Intel for me. While I have no doubts CPU power is very great (I mean that "puny tablet cpu" as some hater expressed in iPad Pro 2018 was a beast), I have doubts about GPU speeds and that they can rival nVidia 3080/RDNA2 equivalent.
    Last edited by ldev; 2020-11-15 at 10:49 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by ldev View Post
    Lol what? That's like saying "Intel i7-970 is so new, we don't know the adoption, yada yada" - like what? We're at i7-10whatever now.
    But that isn't a brand new architecture. An i7 would just be a continuation of the x86 architecture that WoW is already built for. Compiling for ARM is a very different undertaking than just optimizing for the latest x86 hardware.

    Who cares about M1 adoption, next CPU will be M2, then M3, then M4, then M5, then M6, then M7, then M8. Just port to ARM and be done with it. There's no x86 in the future.
    It's important because companies want a return on investment, and want to know when that ROI will happen. Apple has just released three machines using the new Apple silicon, but it remains to be seen how fast users will adopt them. They absolutely will, eventually, but when? They released three machines not amazingly designed to play WoW. Will Blizzard wait to see what the beefier machines can do? Do they want to spend resources trying to get WoW to run well on these machines, when they keep bumping up the required specs? Companies don't just push out software based on a different architecture over night. It takes time, effort and cost.

    Personally I'm waiting for RDNA2 cards and next MBP and iMac Pro will still be Intel for me. While I have no doubts CPU power is very great (I mean that "puny tablet cpu" as some hater expressed in iPad Pro 2018 was a beast), I have doubts about GPU speeds and that they can rival nVidia 3080/RDNA2 equivalent.
    The Pro part of the Apple lineup is what I wonder about. Specifically the Mac Pro and iMac Pro, which are dedicated heavy duty machines that are used by power users. People doing heavy photo and video editing need buckets of RAM, along with better GPU options. If the RAM is attached to the SoC and not user upgradeable, it would cost a fortune to do the upgrade with Apple. The M1 is a great chip that has a ton of potential, but Apple needs to show us how it's going to be used in a power desktop situation.

  4. #24
    THe other part people either dont remember, weren't around for, or never knew is that Blizzard, for a LONG ass time had a dedicated core of Mac devs that were serious Mac evangelists, that were the ones responsible for Mac support from Blizzard.

    ALL of those guys are gone.

    Supporting WoW during the transition from PPC to Intel made sense both because most of that team (who covered Mac duties for ALL of Blizzard's games) was eager to do it and going to Intel made it EASIER to maintain, not harder.

    The same cannot be said of ARM. And there is NO team of evangelists pushing for Mac support inside Blizzard. (They all bailed out from mid-LK to late Cataclysm).

    Overwatch will run on a potato.

    But there's no Mac client. Because there's no Mac install base to support it.

    WoW's Mac support has limped along because it was already on Mac.... but the ARM transition is the perfect time to just drop Mac support from Blizz entirely, other than perhaps Hearthstone since it is a simple mobile app and ARM Macs will support iOS apps out the gate and there will be zero additional dev time needed.

    There's no viable install base of Macs with enough hardware oomph to run games. And that doesn't look to change in the future.

    Only the Pro models are EVER going to have a dGPU going forward. And the iGPU in the M1, while impressive for what it is, is an absolute trash-fire solution for gaming. Who wants to run every game (if it will even run) at low settings and 1080p?

    Then there's the assumption that the M2, M3, etc are going to all always be giant massive leaps in performance like we've seen from the A-series chips. Thats not a given. ARM performance WILL plateau. ARM's currently the darling of the world because of its efficiency/power ratio, which is largely better than current X86 offerings - but in no world anywhere is it anywhere NEAR the performance of dedicated X86 high-power chips. For all the power the A12X has, it is still brutally curbstomped by a Ryzen 5 5600X in top-end performance. And for a lot of things, thats all that matters. I dont care if the CPU in my workstation is a 200W part. I just want it to get that render done in 15 minutes instead of 2 hours. The extra 5$ a year in electricity cost is irrelevant.

    Now, im sure that if Apple also gives the finger to caring about power consumption for "Pro"/working machines, they can make an ARM chip that might perform as well as current X86...

    But current X86 is also ALREADY being trumped by leaks of next gen chips (Rocket Lake with a 12-20% IPC increase over Comet Lake (and still at 14nm!) and clocks in the 5.5ghz range. Very early leaks of pre-pre-production silicon of Rocket-Lake S's succesor (same cores on 7nm) are showing even greater gains.

    AMD has already shown developers Zen 4 and it looks to be even more power efficient, is showing 5+ghz base clocks, and 15-20% IPC uplift over Zen 3, which already had a 10+% gain over Zen 2

    This isn't some cut-and-dried solution where "Apple alone knows the way". (And before you even go there, Mr. Macshillmeister, ive used a Mac since the release of the Beige toaster box - i was about 9 at the time - and bought my own first Mac - an SE/30 - and have owned a Mac (often more than one) ever since. I still use a Mac as my daily driver (2014 15" MBP i7/16GB/500GB). Im not an Apple-hater. Remember that Microsoft tried Windows on ARM well before Apple did (remember the original non-Pro Surface... that was ARM). Apple is (often) not a true innovator, but rather a perfecter. They didn't invent the GUI (despite Jobs .... implying that, constantly) - they stole it from Xerox and made it better. Apple didn't invent the MP3 player. They simply made it better. They didn't invent Tablets. They simply figured out how to make it viable and relatively affordable. They didn't invent Smart Phones - they simply made it dumbed down enough for the common user. All of those are great things, of course, but Apple is hardly a super-innovator in all things. (In other fields, they definitely are, credit where it is due).

    But i dont have faith in Apple giving a single solitary fuck about gaming. And i dont have any faith that ActiBlizz cares about Mac. You might have seen an ARM-64 tag - that could very well be for Windows-on-ARM, which will actually have an install base that matters. Maybe they will support ARM Macs. Because continuing to support a product already in existence is often a matter of inertia.

    But i would NOT say its 100% certain, any more than i'd say that Apple Silicon is going to be "the one way forward" - we're very likely to see performance hit a giant wall around the M3 or M4 chips as the limits of what the physical hardware can even do are hit (manufacturing processes below 3nm are looking increasingly infeasible due to massive electron migration issues).

    These new ARM Macs look great for daily driving, light content creation, and iOS gaming. They currently do NOT look viable for anything remotely high-end. A Titular high-end production ARM Mac is going to need a lot more than 4/4 BIG.Little to keep up with a 32 core Xeon that has an extra ~1.5-2ghz of clock speed or a Threadripper with 64 cores. And non-upgradeable anything is a HUGE miss for me.

    Since i only use a Mac for daily driving, ill probably eventually own an ARM Mini (probably the M2 or whatever, when the lack of Intel support drives me to get a new machine) - and i can get by on the soldered on specs... but for people who need longevity from their machines?

    Thats a SHIT situation.

    TLDR:

    Its not all hookers and sunshine.

    Doesn't mean the ARM Macs are terrible, just means they aren't all that and a bag of chips.

    Apple isnt the One True Way, but neither are they The Devil.

    ARM Macs still have a LONG way to go and a LOT to prove before they can even get close to replacing a real production unit.

  5. #25
    Fact is, that they added a new macOS binary last PTR/Beta build that includes an ARM version.

    i.imgur.com/WXTJYIR.png

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldev View Post
    Whoops - https://www.mmo-champion.com/content...ha-Build-34972

    Well of course armchair windows expert is surprised, color me not surprised. Microsoft and Google cannot do shit, they cannot introduce anything, just follow. Apple is the only company that leads the industry. WoW was running on PowerPC. Got migrated to Intel. Why the fuck wouldn't it be migrated to ARM, when literally everyone is doing that?

    I am also not surprised you gamers have zero idea about apple - I mean that's where the hate is coming from - people hate what they don't understand. Incels hate women, gamers hate apple, nazis hate biden, delightful people.
    Why wouldn't they? Because it's a waste of money and there are not enough people playing WoW on Apple computers, let alone the Apple Silicon models, to justify developing a port until there is a reasonable install base. Maybe you should lay off the Apple Kool-Aid.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ldev View Post
    Lol what? That's like saying "Intel i7-970 is so new, we don't know the adoption, yada yada" - like what? We're at i7-10whatever now.

    Who cares about M1 adoption, next CPU will be M2, then M3, then M4, then M5, then M6, then M7, then M8. Just port to ARM and be done with it. There's no x86 in the future.
    Right, there's no x86 future despite the hundreds of millions of Windows computers as well as gaming consoles running on x86. Enjoy your glorified potato computers running tablet and smartphone processing technology.

    There's limitations on smaller manufacturing processes while 7nm x86 is absolutely crushing 5Ghz. Apple will never get to this point because they have no way to do it or even cool in in their machines without actual high end cooling.
    Last edited by Rennadrel; 2020-11-16 at 03:05 AM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by PePeNinja View Post
    Hey.

    For any1 using mac for work+games what do you think about the new Mac mini with this new M1 Chip..??
    Very slow computer. You should buy Windows computer if you want to do any real work or gaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by PePeNinja View Post
    I dont even know if WOW is gonna run on this yet but a combination of mac mini with the new M1 chip and the 48'' LG CX OLED sound insane.
    WoW will work but it'll be slow and buggy because it is compiled for Intel architecture and emulation will be slow and buggy. Don't even think about gaming on 4K resolution, it just won't work. M1 GPU is comparable with Nvidia GTX 1050 which is an extremely outdated entry-level GPU. It's adequate for web browsing or simple games like minesweeper. You might be able to play WoW on very low resolution with very low graphics settings if you're not very picky about bad framerate.

    TLDR: don't buy it.

    You might want to wait a few years. There are rumors about Mac Pro mini. That might be an interesting computer, if Blizzard would still support Mac port of WoW.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Er, dude, you're projecting something on me that isn't there. I'm more or less a platform agnostic guy. My desktop dual boots Windows and Linux, my laptop is a 12 inch Macbook. I literally just this month switched from an iPhone to an Android (I switch back and forth each gen) and use an iPad all the time. I'm an Apple user (as well as a user of multiple other brands and platforms).

    Apple is very, bery good at what they do. Conversely, there are things they simply don't do, which is fine.

    In this case, my surprise isn't on Apple's part, it's on Blizzard. The Apple silicon is so new, there's no metric available as to what the market share is and how quickly adopters will flock to it. Are people going to be hesitant and wait for Apple to work through compatibility? Are people going to wait for a second gen? Are people more interested in a 16 inch Macbook Pro and an iMac? I'm just surprised that Blizzard is jumping the gun on this so damn quickly.

    Please don't project stuff at me that isn't there. That is not cool.
    Apple ARM is not new. It was known for years that Apple works on ARM macs. It's not surprising for Blizzard to support it. They already support Metal, so they only need to compile WoW client on ARM64 which is not rocket science. It's well known that WoW codebase is pretty good C++. Of course there will be issues with first releases, but they'll polish it with time. I suppose that few percents of WoW gamers use macs, so it's only logical to support them. I mean, even if there are only 20 000 gamers on macs, that's 260 000 dollars/month, enough for a single full-time developer to support that platform.

    It's just that macs are bad gaming machines. They are overpriced like hell, slow and incompatible. But people still will buy them because they want to join elite club of Apple customers, so Blizzard will cater to them. They probably are stupid enough to throw money around including Blizzard shop.
    Last edited by vsb; 2020-11-16 at 03:05 AM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by vsb View Post
    Very slow computer. You should buy Windows computer if you want to do any real work or gaming.


    WoW will work but it'll be slow and buggy because it is compiled for Intel architecture and emulation will be slow and buggy. Don't even think about gaming on 4K resolution, it just won't work. M1 GPU is comparable with Nvidia GTX 1050 which is an extremely outdated entry-level GPU. It's adequate for web browsing or simple games like minesweeper. You might be able to play WoW on very low resolution with very low graphics settings if you're not very picky about bad framerate.

    TLDR: don't buy it.

    You might want to wait a few years. There are rumors about Mac Pro mini. That might be an interesting computer, if Blizzard would still support Mac port of WoW.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Apple ARM is not new. It was known for years that Apple works on ARM macs. It's not surprising for Blizzard to support it. They already support Metal, so they only need to compile WoW client on ARM64 which is not rocket science. It's well known that WoW codebase is pretty good C++. Of course there will be issues with first releases, but they'll polish it with time. I suppose that few percents of WoW gamers use macs, so it's only logical to support them. I mean, even if there are only 20 000 gamers on macs, that's 260 000 dollars/month, enough for a single full-time developer to support that platform.

    It's just that macs are bad gaming machines. They are overpriced like hell, slow and incompatible. But people still will buy them because they want to join elite club of Apple customers, so Blizzard will cater to them. They probably are stupid enough to throw money around including Blizzard shop.
    Every company I’ve worked at gives their software engineers MacBooks, because they are preferred by most people doing “real work”, not to mention that they are substantially more stable and secure than Windows machines.

  9. #29
    I would never in my life purchase an Apple product period. They are incredibly anti-consumer and from my point of view there is no need to ever own one. They can do certain niche things well but I can't imagine any "mini" variant would ever fit that role.

    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Every company I’ve worked at gives their software engineers MacBooks, because they are preferred by most people doing “real work”, not to mention that they are substantially more stable and secure than Windows machines.
    Rofl no they are not, they are just not as widely used as PCs so they don't make good targets. Security by obscurity I suppose?

  10. #30
    i used to raid and do bgs during tbc on a macbook pro with bootcamp and i had no problems. only mmo that gave me any kind of problem was warhammer online, but i just had to upgrade the ram and then it was fine. I am sure the new mac mini will do wow well

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by EyelessCrow View Post
    I would never in my life purchase an Apple product period. They are incredibly anti-consumer and from my point of view there is no need to ever own one. They can do certain niche things well but I can't imagine any "mini" variant would ever fit that role.


    Rofl no they are not, they are just not as widely used as PCs so they don't make good targets. Security by obscurity I suppose?
    If you need me to explain to you why Unix is more secure than Windows, you don’t have the required knowledge to even debate this issue.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    If you need me to explain to you why Unix is more secure than Windows, you don’t have the required knowledge to even debate this issue.
    It's not...

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    Why wouldn't they? Because it's a waste of money and there are not enough people playing WoW on Apple computers, let alone the Apple Silicon models, to justify developing a port until there is a reasonable install base. Maybe you should lay off the Apple Kool-Aid.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Right, there's no x86 future despite the hundreds of millions of Windows computers as well as gaming consoles running on x86. Enjoy your glorified potato computers running tablet and smartphone processing technology.

    There's limitations on smaller manufacturing processes while 7nm x86 is absolutely crushing 5Ghz. Apple will never get to this point because they have no way to do it or even cool in in their machines without actual high end cooling.
    It's easy to preach that CISC has no future over RISC architecture because CISC is HW dependent and RISC is SW dependent. But without SW support these chips are not going to be useful, so if Apple wishes to spend resources on that - good for them, but it won't be a huge improvement over CISC, it's just different architecture and we (users) don't have a horse in this race.
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2020-11-16 at 03:44 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Fabolt View Post
    It's not...
    Sure it isn’t buddy, sure it isn’t.

    And I’m sure you also don’t believe that restricted hardware options are more secure and that windows 10 being a telemetry data collection monster has no effect on security.

  15. #35
    If anything, blizzard will finally be able to port WoW to iOS indirectly by porting it to apple silicon.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    But that isn't a brand new architecture. An i7 would just be a continuation of the x86 architecture that WoW is already built for. Compiling for ARM is a very different undertaking than just optimizing for the latest x86 hardware.

    It's important because companies want a return on investment, and want to know when that ROI will happen. Apple has just released three machines using the new Apple silicon, but it remains to be seen how fast users will adopt them. They absolutely will, eventually, but when? They released three machines not amazingly designed to play WoW. Will Blizzard wait to see what the beefier machines can do? Do they want to spend resources trying to get WoW to run well on these machines, when they keep bumping up the required specs? Companies don't just push out software based on a different architecture over night. It takes time, effort and cost.
    To be fair x86/x64 is already handled, so while it is new - the Apple stuff *is* going to be the new standard for Apple, iirc? Why purposely turn a blind eye to your demographic for a generation or two "to see the adoption rate"?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fabolt View Post
    It's not...
    It is always funny how people think low market share = more secure.

    Granted, it isn't simply the low (compared to Windows) market share that makes it not worth it, it is also the demographic of users being a little savvier as well.

    Now, *technically* is Linux more secure than Windows? Sure, I suppose with SELinux and all that, but the overwhelming reason people think it's more secure is for no other reason than the target size.
    Last edited by alturic; 2020-11-16 at 03:57 AM.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by RemasteredClassic View Post
    If anything, blizzard will finally be able to port WoW to iOS indirectly by porting it to apple silicon.
    The M1 chip literally lacks both the CPU and GPU processing power to run WoW, the thing doesn't come close to having the single threaded performance needed to run the game, and it's GPU capabilities are weaker than a low end cards from 3 generations ago. Also, iOS devices would melt trying to run such a game, their cooling is garbage for the processing speeds needed to game.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    To be fair x86/x64 is already handled, so while it is new - the Apple stuff *is* going to be the new standard for Apple, iirc? Why purposely turn a blind eye to your demographic for a generation or two "to see the adoption rate"?
    Because none of the machines released so far are built with gaming in mind (as much as a Mac is ever built with gaming in mind). Apple started with the lower power kits before going to the heavy hitters. People aren't terribly likely to pick up one of these with gaming in mind, making them not the best benchmark for how WoW will perform on the architecture. It may make more sense to wait a bit and see how the more powerful machines suss out.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    The M1 chip literally lacks both the CPU and GPU processing power to run WoW, the thing doesn't come close to having the single threaded performance needed to run the game, and it's GPU capabilities are weaker than a low end cards from 3 generations ago. Also, iOS devices would melt trying to run such a game, their cooling is garbage for the processing speeds needed to game.
    Where have you seen that info? From what I've been seeing, the M1 is benchmarking better at single core than any other Mac in the lineup (i9 included).

    https://www.macrumors.com/2020/11/15...x86-benchmark/

    And that's not even native. That's using Reosetta 2.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Kagthul View Post
    Blizzard will use this excuse to drop Mac support.
    It isn't an excuse when it is valid - Mac is changing the processor their computers run on, not supporting it any more just makes sense.

    There is no putting the blame for this on Blizzard sorry.

    Due to COVID-19, Germany is running out of sausages and cheese.
    The government considers this to be the Wurst Käse scenario

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    It's easy to preach that CISC has no future over RISC architecture because CISC is HW dependent and RISC is SW dependent. But without SW support these chips are not going to be useful, so if Apple wishes to spend resources on that - good for them, but it won't be a huge improvement over CISC, it's just different architecture and we (users) don't have a horse in this race.
    To further this... Apple already did RISC. It wasn't enough to keep up. PowerPC is RISC.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by EyelessCrow View Post
    They can do certain niche things well but I can't imagine any "mini" variant would ever fit that role.
    The current Mini is actually a decent production machine for workloads that dont require a dGPU. So.. not sure what it is you're on about. Whether the M1 Mini will be as well (im skeptical) is TBD.

    Rofl no they are not, they are just not as widely used as PCs so they don't make good targets. Security by obscurity I suppose?
    Unix is used on more machines than Windows by an order of magnitude.... you trying to sell the "people dont attack UNIX because its so rare" is rather hilarious.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rennadrel View Post
    Right, there's no x86 future despite the hundreds of millions of Windows computers as well as gaming consoles running on x86. Enjoy your glorified potato computers running tablet and smartphone processing technology.
    ARM doesnt mean "smartphone technology".

    A decent portion of The Cloud(tm) runs on ARM based server clusters. And growing because of the power savings.

    There's limitations on smaller manufacturing processes while 7nm x86 is absolutely crushing 5Ghz.
    IPC is more important than clock speed. Or, rather, clock speed only becomes relevant if the IPC is there.

    Apple will never get to this point because they have no way to do it
    lolwut?

    or even cool in in their machines without actual high end cooling.
    Their machines that need high end cooling (iMac Pro, Mac Pro) have high end bespoke cooling that is, in many cases, better than you can do even with custom loop unless you're doing triple 360mm rads. So.. what?

    Mind, im with you on the "X86 isn't going to be not relevant" train... but your attempts to support that argument aren't really there. You're tilting at windmills here.
    Last edited by Kagthul; 2020-11-16 at 05:17 AM.

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