Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst
1
2
  1. #21
    One of the easiest mechanics in the game... And you think it's 'too complicated'.

    I miss the days where people didn't need addons to do everything for them.

    I'm guessing you also think doing a dungeon without DBM/Bigwigs would be far too hard, as well.

  2. #22
    I miss the good old days with the pendulum bar

  3. #23
    imo INSIDE the eclipse phases all is fine. bursty using of 1 spell and chain cast it a few times before using the other, feels better to me than switching the 2 constantly, like in BfA. management of how and when using the finisher (or aoe) inside the phases. thats all fine, imo.

    that said: i see the problems outside of this. and most of it sucks (for my taste):

    - you dont know which phase/eclipse was last one (what op said)
    - it sucks to can not do aoe or single target as needed exactly NOW (as many said)
    - it sucks to first cast 2 wrong ones before starting the right ones
    - it sucks to always look, after a fight/mob, where you eclipse wise are and how the next fight/mob starts
    - it extreeemely sucks that your third wrath cast is already through, when you can react to eclipse switch
    - also, when essence procs, and you have free choice of eclipse, its confusing. and after a while you are again into normal switching, without really having a good picture which side, seconds before chain casting what you mostly need (SF cause of trash pack, or Wrath cause mob dies soon etc). this is horrible confusing, at least to me, to „sync up“ yourself again, after getting a essence proc (total eclipse / both eclipse active)

    i do not have any solutions to offer, but the playstyle in general, to chain burst a spell for a while and then a while another, while managing AoE and ST finisher, is great. the comin in and out of the eclipse phases sucks.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    One of the easiest mechanics in the game... And you think it's 'too complicated'.

    I miss the days where people didn't need addons to do everything for them.

    I'm guessing you also think doing a dungeon without DBM/Bigwigs would be far too hard, as well.
    if you wanna do it „right“ competitive wise, it indeed IS complicated. the concept and rotation overall is not. but doing it perfect >95% of time, IS. it is nearly impossible without weak auras etc

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    I don't think it's complicated, rather, it's just irritating. Players should have options as to what to cast next, having to make decisions on what to prioritize. The Eclipse system basically kills that. It's not reactive, nor is it anticipatory. It's just routine. It's not hard to pull off. It's just hard to feel fulfilled whilst you do it.

    irritating is a good term, instead of complicated. but the most irritating moments come from handling eclipses switches the right way. that whole „cast 2 opposite spells to activate the other“ is horrible irritating in some situations. also your 3rd spell is already through when already in other phase (75% of the time), cause of latency etc. they better did something like

    „2 SS in row gives free eclipse choice. after second cast of 1 spell (wrath or sf) you are in That eclipse. or an extra button to say „now moon phase, now sun phase“ etc.

    if you had more control, it would be less irritating.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by MCitra View Post
    I think once you get the hang of it you will really enjoy it. I totally did a 360 turn on this and can honestly say its the most enjoyable rotation since forever.
    Legion was fun with legendarys so it's not easy to compare with but non legendarys i think this one is more fun and you have more controll over the outcome!
    i am curious (positive meant): what EXACTLY of rotation is most enjoyable for you ?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Dimmak View Post
    Yes I feel it is needlessly complicated compared to other specs. In concept it isn't but when mythic raiding and I am watching all the other events creates a massive mental bandwidth issue. Coupled that it quite easy to be in the wrong eclipse.

    I would much preferred that eclipse was not tied to wrath and starfire. Wrath is suppose to be single target focus and star fire is suppose to be aoe focused. It feels so unitutive to be spamming thw opposite than what the situation calls for because thw eclipse cycle says too. There is no fun factor from it either.

    Couple this that the pay off of playing well doesn't reward big numbers. Starsurge feels weak now as well despite what numbers say.

    What does feel good is starfall. Its massive and present and does good damage. And with a talent really helps with mobility.

    Our cool down feels good too but it's 3 minutes. 2.6 minutes of not feeling good is too long. I really thing they should look at making it a 2 minute cooldown. But eclipse kind of takes the sales out of alignment since you get half of its affect all the time.

    Personally I would like us to have a 30 second CD off gdc button to press to activate eclipse. When in eclipse both starfire and wrath are empowered so we can cast the spell we choose. Or maybe the the CD is 1 minute but astral spends lower the cooldown so we have an interaction from both star fall and star surge to bring Eclipse back up. But it would give us control over whether to aoe or single target.
    exactly this.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thelxi View Post
    My beef with balance after the changes is that it is a spec of compromise now where previously it was a strive for perfection kind of spec. Now you might want to make some sacrifices here and there, waste some resources here and there, just so that you can line everything up and do proper damage in your next eclipse. It's one of those aggressive and sweeping changes that might look subtle, but really set the tone for a spec.

    It's not a bad spec imo, just entirely different than what it was. I felt the same way about rogue when they overhauled all the specs from WoD to Legion where a lot of subtle things were lost, such as assassination gaining short rotational cooldowns where it previously was the only melee spec in the game really without one.
    yep. its lousy to offer a complete different taste/feeling on something ppl committed themselfes 2-4 years. that sucks. there are ppl playing druid because they loved how it worked. and now? these changes where way to radical.

    - - - Updated - - -

    and, as other said: the spec has this bad taste, that you do not try to perfectionize your rotation. it more feels like steady watching to deal with the best compromise.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Alkhan View Post
    If you look at the action bar both wrath and starfire have a counter showing how often you have to cast one or the other to reach eclipse. It's the same for the standard ui. I checked.


    yes, ofc. and it activates when you already chaincasted your 12th spell in a eclipse that already ended at 11.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mashanu View Post
    games too easy, complain

    games too hard, complain

    will we ever win?

    stay tuned for the next patch

    problem is: Blizz finds no mid ground there. As always and in many game aspects, they swing the pendulum from one extreme to another.

    its like saying: white - ppl whine its too white. black - ppl whine its too dark. while never trying... gray.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2020-11-20 at 05:04 AM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    if you wanna do it „right“ competitive wise, it indeed IS complicated. the concept and rotation overall is not. but doing it perfect >95% of time, IS. it is nearly impossible without weak auras etc
    Strange that Feral in wrath (quite possibly the most complicated rotation in WoW's history) was done just fine by many, without weak auras, or any sort of rotational helper addon. People are just too babied these days. Like the people saying doing M+ without MDT is impossible. No it's not.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    irritating is a good term, instead of complicated. but the most irritating moments come from handling eclipses switches the right way. that whole „cast 2 opposite spells to activate the other“ is horrible irritating in some situations. also your 3rd spell is already through when already in other phase (75% of the time), cause of latency etc. they better did something like
    That sounds more like a you problem. Mostly a "you aren't paying attention when your Eclipses run out". It's perfectly possible to tell when the next one is going to start, even with a second or two of latency, letting you queue up the correct spell for third.

    Anybody saying no control is just flat-out lying. Eclipse won't start unless you deliberately take action to make it. This isn't WoD, where it cycles constantly while in combat.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    That sounds more like a you problem. Mostly a "you aren't paying attention when your Eclipses run out". It's perfectly possible to tell when the next one is going to start, even with a second or two of latency, letting you queue up the correct spell for third.

    Anybody saying no control is just flat-out lying. Eclipse won't start unless you deliberately take action to make it. This isn't WoD, where it cycles constantly while in combat.

    a) how will you get this, without constantly watching the moon/sun icon and going pre-stop casting. the „2“ counter on spell icon of wrath or starfire lights up, when you already casting the next spell and phase is over. to predict this right you either must assume, its good to stop (which is very vague and works 50% of time and 50% not), or you need a weak aura exactly telling you how many casts left, you can pack into a phase. so it becomes clearly predictable.

    b) if so many ppl say the same, i assume it is not a „you“ problem. everybody with least bit of common sense realize the problems with new eclipse (mostly „no control“). just go beta and listen what ppl say since around 3-5 months.

    c) it seems you never really played owlkin. it sounds like you go to training puppet play the rotation for 5min and go „ah well, all right“.

    d) whenever you are in a helter skelter (heavy movement) encounter situation, you will get the downsides of eclipse switches very fast.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    Strange that Feral in wrath (quite possibly the most complicated rotation in WoW's history) was done just fine by many, without weak auras, or any sort of rotational helper addon. People are just too babied these days. Like the people saying doing M+ without MDT is impossible. No it's not.
    ehrm, no ? just plain and simple no. i play this game since 2005 without interruption of sub (bronce statue) and first: handling a lot of dots/bleeds, like feral in worlk, is not the same. and second: 70% of players totally used addons for feral and the main concern at this time was: feral is not playable competitive without addons. go archives and check the posts in druid forum.

    better check facts before comparing apples with oranges and posting stuff that never happened that way.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2020-11-20 at 01:31 PM.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    a) how will you get this, without constantly watching the moon/sun icon and going pre-stop casting. the „2“ counter on spell icon of wrath or starfire lights up, when you already casting the next spell and phase is over. to predict this right you either must assume, its good to stop (which is very vague and works 50% of time and 50% not), or you need a weak aura exactly telling you how many casts left, you can pack into a phase. so it becomes clearly predictable.
    You only need to know when the last Eclipse ends. 2 casts after that, the next one will start. It's really not that hard. And yes, it's very clearly predictable.

    c) it seems you never really played owlkin. it sounds like you go to training puppet play the rotation for 5min and go „ah well, all right“.
    Just for the last 16 years or so.

    d) whenever you are in a helter skelter (heavy movement) encounter situation, you will get the downsides of eclipse switches very fast.
    Oh no, there's downsides. Because no other spec ever has downsides.

  8. #28
    I fail to understand how is it complicated. Is it different to how we played in BfA? Yes. But after a few weeks on prepatch this new playstyle became totally natural to me.

    Is WA needed to play it? No. Is it helpful? Yes. That's the point of addons, and you must be in denial if you don't think current blizz design philosophy doesnt revolve around addons. Especially raid bosses. But even then, with some practice you're doing it all automatically with a glimpse here and there needed. How is it any different than empowerments which also required you to check your action bar / buff frames (and which WA made a lot easier)?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Niwes View Post
    feral is not playable competitive without addons. go archives and check the posts in druid forum.

    better check facts before comparing apples with oranges and posting stuff that never happened that way.
    I mean I was one of the ferals I talk about, but sure continue. The length of time you've played doesn't miraculously make you right. I've played every single tier since AQ40 as well, you're not special champ.

    If you're gonna say "check your facts" you should be right yourself, first. Sorry that you're hopeless when it comes to a video game, that you need to be handhold on what to do. Addons are not required for literally any aspect of the game. Do they help? Sure. Are they 100% absolutely necessary? Nope.

    In conclusion: Git gud.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryzeth View Post
    I mean I was one of the ferals I talk about, but sure continue. The length of time you've played doesn't miraculously make you right. I've played every single tier since AQ40 as well, you're not special champ.

    If you're gonna say "check your facts" you should be right yourself, first. Sorry that you're hopeless when it comes to a video game, that you need to be handhold on what to do. Addons are not required for literally any aspect of the game. Do they help? Sure. Are they 100% absolutely necessary? Nope.

    In conclusion: Git gud.
    that wasnt meant as: NO player EVER could play feral in wotlk days without addons.

    but it is clear, when you be honest, that a lot of players complained playing feral without addons is suboptimal. or as i said check the archives (you find A LOT of that stuff in the druid class forum).

    this doesnt mean that this is a fact for all, everyone, ever and without any exceptions. and this doesnt mean that some players here and there not were very competitive without addons in wotlk. but it DOES mean that a lot of ppl cant (or felt like THEY can not) play feral competitive without addons. and this is all what i said.

    so, no offense here. you for sure played feral without any problems on high niveau without any addons. i totally believe this and i am totally fine with this fact. but not everyone was like you. archives definetely states this.

    and it makes definetely clear, that feral was in this case an exception. all the other class forums were not full of „omg i need addons to play my spec well“.

    thats all i wanna say here. i do not say: it is not possible. for everyone.
    Last edited by Niwes; 2020-11-22 at 06:07 AM.

  11. #31
    I might be getting old and confuse about the version of feral but what was so hard about WOTLK version of feral that some people make it up to be as its the damn Kraken?

    Smart pooling of energy, keep your dots up, mangle up, fairy fire up and keep an eye on omen proc, do i miss something?

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by kaelix1 View Post
    I might be getting old and confuse about the version of feral but what was so hard about WOTLK version of feral that some people make it up to be as its the damn Kraken?

    Smart pooling of energy, keep your dots up, mangle up, fairy fire up and keep an eye on omen proc, do i miss something?
    Mostly just Madden memeing.

  13. #33
    I have a few problems with the eclipse mechanic:

    a) I don't think showing the numbers on your action bar is a good way of showing your progression towards an eclipse (if you can even call it that lol), usually you show charges of an ability instead and if you run out of the charges, you can't use the ability any more.

    b) I was confused initially what the eclipse mechanic did, since I kept expecting BfA type of empowerments and didn't find whether that was a thing or not, and at the same time also expecting to see the eclipse bar of old times (didn't play Druid in WotLK tho) and got confused where it is.

    b.2) After taking small amount of time to read through stuff, I fell asleep at the rotation for Druids in SL. That can't be it, right? Does Balance Druid have the easiest rotation in game?

    This feels very uninspired and bland. Even BfA was quite dreadful until the essences, Pulsar and Streaking Stars became a thing (having 2 minute long Celestial Alignments with Streaking Stars was quite fun).

    I also don't really feel like any of my abilities are impactful and I'd expect eclipses and CA to be a big cooldown, but it just feels very underwhelming, though that may be just not getting used to the smaller numbers for me. I wonder if that's how other feel as well?

  14. #34
    Maybe a graphical representation of an eclipse, either on top of your character or as part of the UI, would help a lot.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    b.2) After taking small amount of time to read through stuff, I fell asleep at the rotation for Druids in SL. That can't be it, right? Does Balance Druid have the easiest rotation in game?
    That's hardly a new thing. We've had one of, if not the easiest rotation of most specs for years.

    The weak feeling is likely linked to your gear. Remember that all of those scale directly with mastery, and Astral damage benefits multiplicatively from both Eclipses during CA.

  16. #36
    Herald of the Titans Lora's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Some random weird place
    Posts
    2,877
    its literally not complicated at all. you cast two starfires to entire solar eclipse or two wraths to enter lunar eclipse. at the end of the eclipse you cast the opposite and continue. the only time it is different is the beginning of combat and when you pop celestial alignment/incarnation. both eclipses become active during it and you are able to enter either eclipse once it ends. it literally shows you how many spells you have to cast to enter your next eclipse in the UI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uggorthaholy View Post
    Thanks but no thanks, Lora, for making me question everything in existence forever.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •