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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I don't think we really know enough about Elune to really rank her on the power scale, so to speak. But the Jailer/Zovaal is a member of a collection of beings known as the Eternal Ones, who were originally set over the Shadowlands. The Eternal Ones includes the Primus, the Winter Queen, Sire Denathrius, Kyrestia the Firstborne, and the Arbiter. Zovaal was banished to the Maw for unspecified crimes against the other Eternal Ones eons ago, and became the Jailer as a result. How Elune compares to the Eternal Ones is unknown, but she is likely either as powerful or more, depending. Elune is accorded as the WoW metacosm's sole true deity, so this may set her over the Eternal Ones to some degree.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    The Arbiter, the Archon, Denathrius, the Primus, and the Winter Queen are all Eternal Ones like the Jailer.

    I mean, it doesn't need to be stated anywhere, but it should be obvious that Elune is above the Eternal Ones. There's a reason why we still know literally nothing about her in an expansion about the Eternal Ones. Why do you think Blizzard is keeping Elune such a mystery?
    This is what I get for not following the beta I guess. But it's worth it in the end.

    My hope for Elune is that they just don't mess it up with her.

    Also I hope Tyrande doesn't die. Can't really say who might win if we pit Tyrande vs Sylvanas but if we fight Sylvanas first then Tyrande comes along the chances of winning are higher than if she fights Sylvanas before we get a chance to go at her (simply because she will have to survive to probably be a raid boss against us).

    Kinda worried for Tyrande tbh. I mean, Jaina didn't die after succumbing to her anger after Theramore, even tho a lot of people thought she would end up dead by becoming evil or something. Either way first we had Teldrassil, I don't want another loss for the Night Elves.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Xilurm View Post
    Kinda worried for Tyrande tbh. I mean, Jaina didn't die after succumbing to her anger after Theramore, even tho a lot of people thought she would end up dead by becoming evil or something. Either way first we had Teldrassil, I don't want another loss for the Night Elves.
    Turning Tyrande into a villain (just like turning Jaina really) would be the most toxic storyline Blizzard ever wrote.

    "Woman who lost everything -- her home, her friends, her people -- after devoting her entire life to helping others through sacrifice, is somehow treated as the villain who needs to be put down."

    You can't write a more toxic storyline than that.

    I'm sure Blizzard won't do that anyway. In the past, they were genuinely surprised that some people (probably Horde fanboys) thought Jaina was evil. Because in their minds, and in the mind of anyone sane really, Jaina was not evil. She was just traumatized after everything she lost, and had every right to seek vengeance.

    Same thing here with Tyrande. She is 100% a victim, and does not deserve to be turned into a villain at all. For 10.000 years she has sacrificed herself to protect her people. She took within her flesh the almighty power of a god, which risks to tear her apart, so that her people could reclaim their home. She is at the bottom of the list of people who deserve to be killed off.

    Plus who could even replace Tyrande? Malfurion and Shandris are useless, while Maiev is too much of a renegade to take up any leadership position.
    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-11-14 at 04:16 PM.

  3. #23
    They're not evenly matched at all. Tyrande killed a highly skilled ranger, Sylvanas toyed with the Lich King and his army...

  4. #24
    Kinda depends, Elune is pretty badass and the night warrior is nothing to sneeze at.
    I think Sylvanas would lose in any place where death isn't very strong, hell i wouldn't trust her to win even in Icecrown.

    I mean if we consider Elune's powers one point comes tomind: she tore the nightmare corruption from the tears of elune and salvaged Ysera's soul even after that, while the nightmare lord still lived. That sorta corruption was said to be irremovable, and keep in mind all legion bosses were a cut above almost all others we've faced due to our artefact weapons.

    So yeah, my money would be on Elune's wrath in pretty much any location outside of the Shadowlands.
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulfric Trumpcloak View Post
    They're not evenly matched at all. Tyrande killed a highly skilled ranger, Sylvanas toyed with the Lich King and his army...
    You forgot the part where she killed a whole Horde army during the Battle for Darkshore by simply raising her arms? And then doing it again like 2 minutes later? The only reason Tyrande and Malfurion weren't able to kill Nathanos there and then was because Danuser wasn't ready to let go of his self insert (yet).

    And he still didn't let go of Nathanos because, even though he's dead, we're going to the bloody afterlife in 2 weeks.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonrage View Post
    You forgot the part where she killed a whole Horde army during the Battle for Darkshore by simply raising her arms? And then doing it again like 2 minutes later? The only reason Tyrande and Malfurion weren't able to kill Nathanos there and then was because Danuser wasn't ready to let go of his self insert (yet).

    And he still didn't let go of Nathanos because, even though he's dead, we're going to the bloody afterlife in 2 weeks.
    In Warcraft III Tyrande was also able to vanquish an entire Undead army all by herself, allowing the Alliance remnants to escape to safety. This was long before she got the massive Night Warrior boost (around 2:52:30):

    Last edited by Varodoc; 2020-11-14 at 04:24 PM.

  7. #27
    Mechagnome Raysz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I don't think we really know enough about Elune to really rank her on the power scale, so to speak. But the Jailer/Zovaal is a member of a collection of beings known as the Eternal Ones, who were originally set over the Shadowlands. The Eternal Ones includes the Primus, the Winter Queen, Sire Denathrius, Kyrestia the Firstborne, and the Arbiter. Zovaal was banished to the Maw for unspecified crimes against the other Eternal Ones eons ago, and became the Jailer as a result. How Elune compares to the Eternal Ones is unknown, but she is likely either as powerful or more, depending. Elune is accorded as the WoW metacosm's sole true deity, so this may set her over the Eternal Ones to some degree.
    The part about the Eternal Ones is very new to me. Were they always in the lore or recently introduced? The link doesn't supply a whole lot of info on them.
    I've heard about the Void Lords before but I assume they don't play any part in this. Are there any novels that feature the Eternal Ones and delve further into their origins?

    Thank you for all the replies in this thread btw. I guess it also comes down to 'whoever the writers decide needs to win to progress the story'. As is the case with most popular fiction in games, movies and comic books.
    Last edited by Raysz; 2020-11-14 at 08:44 PM.

  8. #28
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raysz View Post
    The part about the Eternal Ones is very new to me. Were they always in the lore or recently introduced? The link doesn't supply a whole lot of info on them.
    I've heard about the Void Lords before but I assume they don't play any part in this. Are there any novels that feature the Eternal Ones and delve further into their origins?

    Thank you for all the replies in this thread btw. I guess it also comes down to 'whoever the writers decide needs to win to progress the story'. As is the case with most popular fiction in games, movies and comic books.
    The Eternal Ones are pretty much new to Shadowlands, yes; before now we didn't know that the realms of Death had rulers of some kind set over them. There's not a whole lot known about them yet, although that will likely change in the days to come as we explore the Covenant realms, interact with the Eternal Ones and their servants, and deal with the ongoing crises afflicting the Shadowlands as a whole. The Void Lords do have some impact on the Eternal Ones as well, as do the Naaru, as the Light and Void have attacked the Shadowlands in the past (for reasons currently unknown).

    Currently of the greater realms of the Warcraft metacosm, we know the Naaru and likely Elune are set over the realms of the Light, the Void Lords are set over the realms of the Void, and the Eternal Ones are set over the Shadowlands.
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  9. #29
    At this point, all guess, the one that got more juice from their master is the winner, I'm going with Tyrande easy, my logic is simple before they got empower by Jailer/Elune, Tyrande was far stronger than Sylvannas in my humble opinion, now that both got empower by what i guess are cosmic entities in wow i rank Tyrande above Sylvannas till i see or read something that contradicts that

  10. #30
    They should kiss and make up. Let bygones be bygones

    To be real though. I hate power level discussions. They're the most useless thing in the history of fandoms. There's no way of telling who's stronger right now, it all depends on the writers. Big explosions, lasers and other special effects are not a reliabe metric.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raysz View Post
    Obviously Tyrande would never win in a fight against Sylvanas because of Horde bias at Blizz HQ
    What Horde bias?

    It have been blatant evident that Blizzard have always favored Alliance.
    Alliance leaders killed: Varian - Allied: Zero
    Horde leader killed: Baine, Garrosh, Vol'jin - Allied: Rastakhan

    Leaders removed from power without dying:
    Alliance: Zero
    Horde: Garrosh, Thrall, Sylvanas

    High ranking NPCs turned traitor:
    Alliance: Zero
    Horde: Varok Saurfang, (almost) Lorthemar

    Neutral NPCs who acted agains a faction without repercussions:
    Alliance: Zero
    Horde: Jaina

    Grand total: Alliance 1 - Horde 9 (as Garrosh is actually mentioned twice)

    Numbers don't lie!
    Last edited by FuxieDK; 2020-11-15 at 02:01 AM.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Turning Tyrande into a villain (just like turning Jaina really) would be the most toxic storyline Blizzard ever wrote.

    "Woman who lost everything -- her home, her friends, her people -- after devoting her entire life to helping others through sacrifice, is somehow treated as the villain who needs to be put down."

    You can't write a more toxic storyline than that.

    I'm sure Blizzard won't do that anyway. In the past, they were genuinely surprised that some people (probably Horde fanboys) thought Jaina was evil. Because in their minds, and in the mind of anyone sane really, Jaina was not evil. She was just traumatized after everything she lost, and had every right to seek vengeance.

    Same thing here with Tyrande. She is 100% a victim, and does not deserve to be turned into a villain at all. For 10.000 years she has sacrificed herself to protect her people. She took within her flesh the almighty power of a god, which risks to tear her apart, so that her people could reclaim their home. She is at the bottom of the list of people who deserve to be killed off.

    Plus who could even replace Tyrande? Malfurion and Shandris are useless, while Maiev is too much of a renegade to take up any leadership position.
    Last time, Metzen and Kosak were in charge. Danuser will easily make Tyrande evil.

    The Horde considers anyone who wants to give them what they deserve to be evil. They can laugh and rejoice at Theramore and Teldrassil, say how much they enjoy being bloodthirsty monsters and that they would gladly kill every child of the night elves if given the opportunity, and then cry Blizzard on Twitter that Tyrande said a rude word to them.
    Last edited by darkoms; 2020-11-15 at 02:31 AM.

  13. #33
    SPOILER, SERIOUSLY, CAMPAIGN SPOILER:

    In the Night Fae campaign you seek the help of another being (we don't know who they were in life because of how Ardenweld works)who was the Night Warrior. Tyrande is almost "feral" in the Shadowlands and part of the story is to try to bring her back to reality - which fails. Since the Night Warrior "being" is in the shadowlands, it's obvious that the Night Warrior is not stronger than Sylvanas juiced by the Jailer. At the start of the SL expansion, Tyrande is also stuck in the maw with us, so she can't just tear a seam and traverse the SL.

    Ultimately, i think part of the overall plan of the Jailer was to have the night warrior come into play so the Jailer could sap some of Elune/Life's power and possibly make his way to Azeroth/existence using Tyrande as an avatar. I don't see Sylvanas losing, i see the jailer tricking her into becoming the new jailer as he floats off to Azeroth. Literally the only way i see Shadowlands ending and BFA2 starting.
    Last edited by Angrie; 2020-11-15 at 02:48 AM.

  14. #34
    Tyrande must kill her and have her head preserved to be hung at the gates of New Darnassus. Only then, will I forgive Blizz for how they handled everything.

  15. #35
    They'll both be gone by the end of the expansion. Because so many people complained about faction bias, Blizzard has been too afraid to deal a considerable loss to one side without dealing an equal loss to the other. Varian and Vol'Jin both had to die. Tree and Undercity both had to be lost. Now it will be Sylvanas and Tyrande. Whether they're killed off, written off, have some sort of ascension (descension?), or a combination of two I'd be willing to bet on it. True, Sylvanas isn't Horde anymore, but Tyrande seems to be graduating past petty mortal factions and towards something bigger than the Alliance.

  16. #36
    [QUOTE=Angrie;52809861]SPOILER, SERIOUSLY, CAMPAIGN SPOILER:

    In the Night Fae campaign you seek the help of another being (we don't know who they were in life because of how Ardenweld works)who was the Night Warrior. Tyrande is almost "feral" in the Shadowlands and part of the story is to try to bring her back to reality - which fails. Since the Night Warrior "being" is in the shadowlands, it's obvious that the Night Warrior is not stronger than Sylvanas juiced by the Jailer. At the start of the SL expansion, Tyrande is also stuck in the maw with us, so she can't just tear a seam and traverse the SL.
    Can anyone explain to me the logic behind this post? What's the point? The Night Warrior go to Shadowlands, so Sylvanas is stronger than Tyrande ???

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Dastreus View Post
    Tyrande must kill her and have her head preserved to be hung at the gates of New Darnassus. Only then, will I forgive Blizz for how they handled everything.
    That could happen, if Sylvanas was male. But she aint... so yeah.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Turning Tyrande into a villain (just like turning Jaina really) would be the most toxic storyline Blizzard ever wrote.

    "Woman who lost everything -- her home, her friends, her people -- after devoting her entire life to helping others through sacrifice, is somehow treated as the villain who needs to be put down."

    You can't write a more toxic storyline than that.

    I'm sure Blizzard won't do that anyway. In the past, they were genuinely surprised that some people (probably Horde fanboys) thought Jaina was evil. Because in their minds, and in the mind of anyone sane really, Jaina was not evil. She was just traumatized after everything she lost, and had every right to seek vengeance.

    Same thing here with Tyrande. She is 100% a victim, and does not deserve to be turned into a villain at all. For 10.000 years she has sacrificed herself to protect her people. She took within her flesh the almighty power of a god, which risks to tear her apart, so that her people could reclaim their home. She is at the bottom of the list of people who deserve to be killed off.

    Plus who could even replace Tyrande? Malfurion and Shandris are useless, while Maiev is too much of a renegade to take up any leadership position.
    Funny, because that LITERALLY describes Sylvanas' tragedy up to her death from Arthas. If it's good enough for her, it's good enough for Tyrande. The vicious cycle of revenge and hatred is the most used trope in Warcraft, highlighting how misery begets misery. Very Shakespearean and appropriate if Tyrande falls into the same trap and gets villain-batted by going too far down the rabbit hole. Bonus points if we get lessons on how borrowing power from foreign entities and objects is also a bad idea; maybe they'll take that a step further and shit on your waifu Alleria who will no doubt become a loot pinata one day for us as well.

  19. #39
    Warchief Rusken's Avatar
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    I foresee a cheesy cutscene after the final fight with Sylvanas where Tyrande comes in and ninjas our kill after doing essentially nothing for the whole expansion.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    Tyrande appears to be growing in strength by leaps and bounds, although we have no real way of knowing the top-end power of either the Jailer or the Elune - though I would imagine the two beings to be nearly or close to evenly matched. Partly it would depend on how much power either lieutenant of a greater being/force can contain before it causes them to blow an O-ring, so to speak. I would wager a fight between Sylvanas and Tyrande would be a spectacle, and would probably put the odds near 50/50.
    I was pretty sad that they didn't show Tyrande beating back Sylvanas forces to stop her capture. It would have been great to watch.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by KALAMITY View Post
    I kind of look forward to when eventually Tyrande confronts Sylvanas.


    They need a full on DBZ-style fight. First 1v1 with one getting the upper hand. Sylvanas then powers up using all the power of the Jailer she has and begins to overpower Tyrande.


    Tyrande then ascends even further beyond to Ascended Night Warrior and hands Sylvanas the proverbial "L" and calls it a day.
    And then you hear an "ENOUGH" from the dark corner and its nathanos!

    You realize it's been him all along puppeteering them all!

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Engal View Post
    Plus, considering Tyrande is becoming an Avatar of the Wrath of Elune, and Elune is a being far more superior to any of the pantheon / eternal one, and on the level of / subpair of the First One ( or something like this ), Tyrande having her power would basically means she could stomp everyone easily, and that's why this power is too great for her to contain.

    The first night warrior died from it, and the only cure is to share this power between selected few. It'll basically become a new class on a distant future. ( paladin Night Elves? Dark Night Elves Ranger to oppose Forsaken Dark Rangers? )
    Where is the source?

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