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  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by matheney2k View Post
    It didn't seem so obvious from reading your previous posts, sorry.
    You should've read the whole discussion.

    The dude claimed the following when we discussed whether heroic should drop lower ilvl than m+ (which it did in prior expacs):
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    By this standard, no mythic raider would ever set foot in heroic except to learn fights. The primary gearing method would be the dungeons. That's problematic.
    After which I told him that top mythic guilds cleared HC 6 times. So there clearly was an incentive to clear it for gear and not for "learning the fights", why would they have cleared it six times on different chars with armor type stack if it wasn't for gear?

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    Because in my opinion it's stupid.
    I mean I got that much from your original comment. Was merely wondering why, but if you don't feel like expanding on that answer that's cool. Just wondering.

  3. #243
    Im not excited for this either, everything else is fantastic but less gear, i doubt i will be playing many other characters. it seems they want to slow character progression but having characters with brilliant gear has never stopped me from wanting to play so this doesn't sit well with me, especially due to the fact that i've set two nights of the week to playing with a team. I feel like im torn between leaving my team for raiding guild to stay competitive. It is still early days so im going to have to see how it pans out.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by facefist View Post
    After which I told him that top mythic guilds cleared HC 6 times. So there clearly was an incentive to clear it for gear and not for "learning the fights", why would they have cleared it six times on different chars with armor type stack if it wasn't for gear?
    I'm fairly certain that in the last 10 years, there has never been a world first guild clear heroic 6 or more times before the race was over. Definitely not last expansion. I think the max was 2 (maybe 3??) for the entirety of BfA.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Spacewalrus2010 View Post
    I mean I got that much from your original comment. Was merely wondering why, but if you don't feel like expanding on that answer that's cool. Just wondering.
    I just think that since raiding is the most 'epic' adventure that players experience in WoW, the build up towards gearing for it should not be based on spamming 5 man content. I see and understand the other side of the argument, I just disagree with it. Completing the 'max' mythic dungeon isn't nearly as difficult as completing a heroic raid (in my opinion).

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    I'm fairly certain that in the last 10 years, there has never been a world first guild clear heroic 6 or more times before the race was over. Definitely not last expansion. I think the max was 2 (maybe 3??) for the entirety of BfA.
    If you attention span isnt long enough to read the whole discussion, then you probably shouldn't comment. We are talking split runs included, which imo makes the number of clears over 10 in one race (two weeks of hc, 5-6 split runs per week). And there is already evidence posted on that earlier in the discussion.

  6. #246
    this is just as bad as the pvp gearing,if m+ has better gear,people who only wanna raid feel forced to do it,and vice versa,its the same problem they created by removing pvp stats

    they could either add a cd to m+ or give m+ gear a resilience-like stat that works only in m+ and outdoors,and raiding gear a raiding stat that works only in raids and outdoors,so no1 feels forced to do the other content they dont enjoy

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Dartakan View Post
    You have to take into consideration that there is no lockout for m+. Even if you full clear heroic, how many items do you expect to get? 3? While even with lower ilv m+ is a guarantee full set the moment they are out.

    But m15+ is gonna be insanely harder than heroic raiding. Yeah a group could gear up like that if they wanted to play all day all night. But guess what, so do raid stacks and it actually takes less work and less brain while also practicing raid mechanics.

    Right now doing m15+ gonna require a lot of brainpower. I doubt people could do more than 3-4 per day without going mental.

  8. #248
    Elemental Lord Poppincaps's Avatar
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    In BfA Heroic raids were basically useless because the next season would drop, you'd farm M+ for an afternoon or 2 and then have little to no upgrades in Heroic. It also made it so M+ trinkets were basically BIS or close to BIS for the entire expansion and I really hated having to refarm Harlan's Dice for the entire expansion.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by facefist View Post
    If you attention span isnt long enough to read the whole discussion, then you probably shouldn't comment. We are talking split runs included, which imo makes the number of clears over 10 in one race (two weeks of hc, 5-6 split runs per week). And there is already evidence posted on that earlier in the discussion.
    Running a raid more than once offers no additional gear. Each character is getting gear from 1 or 2 raids (and in split runs - each character is only doing 1 or 2 raids). Players may do 10 raids on multiple characters before the race is over, but we aren't talking about how many times people play multiple characters, we are talking about one character, as that is the only discussion that realistically makes sense.

    What you are talking about (split runs) is separate from this thread's discussion. Should we also talk about how people clear old raids on 10+ characters per week? No, because it's also not relevant. You are using evidence to support a different argument and pretending it works for this one. Since the entire premise of your argument is for a different issue, its conclusion is irrelevant for this issue.

  10. #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    Running a raid more than once offers no additional gear. Each character is getting gear from 1 or 2 raids (and in split runs - each character is only doing 1 or 2 raids). Players may do 10 raids on multiple characters before the race is over, but we aren't talking about how many times people play multiple characters, we are talking about one character, as that is the only discussion that realistically makes sense.

    What you are talking about (split runs) is separate from this thread's discussion. Should we also talk about how people clear old raids on 10+ characters per week? No, because it's also not relevant. You are using evidence to support a different argument and pretending it works for this one. Since the entire premise of your argument is for a different issue, its conclusion is irrelevant for this issue.
    I just gave a counter argument to the dude who claimed that no mythic raider would ever set foot in HC except to learn the fights if it dropped lower ilvl than m+. Top guilds clearing it on several characters is a clear and relevant evidence against his claim. Top guilds bothering to do 6 split runs shows that they gave enough value to the loot even if it was lower than m+ - so split runs actually are relevant in this discussion.

    Why write a wall of text if you still fail to read what I originally responded to? I already called you out for your attention span and you still didn't bother to scroll two pages back to actually understand what we are talking about. It's like jumping into a discussion half way through and start making claims without knowing the context.
    Last edited by facefist; 2020-12-02 at 10:27 PM.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by facefist View Post
    I just gave a counter argument to the dude who claimed that no mythic raider would ever set foot in HC except to learn the fights if it dropped lower ilvl than m+. Top guilds clearing it on several characters is a clear and relevant evidence against his claim. Top guilds bothering to do 6 split runs shows that they gave enough value to the loot even if it was lower than m+ - so split runs actually are relevant in this discussion.

    Why write a wall of text if you still fail to read what I originally responded to? I already called you out for your attention span and you still didn't bother to scroll two pages back to actually understand what we are talking about. It's like jumping into a discussion half way through and start making claims without knowing the context.
    When did heroic raids drop lower ilvl than m+? I thought they were equal, with the chest being higher? And split runs are still not an issue in this thread - the issue is loot quality. Split runs are a different discussion.

    If heroic raids never dropped lower ilvl than m+, then reread the last sentence of the last quote.
    Last edited by Jonnusthegreat; 2020-12-02 at 11:01 PM.

  12. #252
    Bloodsail Admiral Depakote's Avatar
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    It's a dungeon.

  13. #253
    Different ilvls for different contents simply isn't working anymore. Some people don't wanna PvE to be able to compete in PvP, and that should be fucking fine. Some people don't wanna raid to compete in the MDI, and that should be fucking fine. And some people don't wanna grind PvP in order to get stronger in raids - that too should be fucking fine.

    But since some of those are infinitely farmable, some of them are easier, some of them are a lot less competitive, whatever, there will always be an imbalance. Using ilvls as a tuning knob will never deliver satisfying results.

    Gear needs to have different effects / power levels based on the gamemode you've got it from / use it in. Gear acquired in m+ needs to have effects that make it indisputably better than anything else in m+, PvP gear needs PvP Power and raid gear needs shit like Reorigination Array to be the go-to option for raiding. All these items will work fine for outdoor / outdated content because they're whatever anyways, but in their respective domain they absolutely have to be the go to option - and that can't happen via ilvl, that has to happen via some form of special effect or whatever.

    This insanely stupid idea that people can't handle more than 2 gear sets is... insanely stupid. There's a reason they give people 150 bag spaces these days, let them fucking use 'em. It shouldn't be too much to ask people to have a PvP set if they wanna PvP and a PvE set if they wanna PvE. And if they wanna offspec they'll have an offspec set. Fuck, this might lead to people carrying around 40 to 50 items at all times, oh dear, wouldn't wanna come up with a gearing system that could possibly result in such a convoluted mess, right?

    As long as Blizzard stick to their ilvl > everything and ilvl = everything crusade you'll never have balanced gearing. But you'll always have people being annoyed and frustrated about having to do some dumb shit they don't wanna do in order to do the dumb shit they actually wanna do.

  14. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    When did heroic raids drop lower ilvl than m+? I thought they were equal, with the chest being higher? And split runs are still not an issue in this thread - the issue is loot quality. Split runs are a different discussion.

    If heroic raids never dropped lower ilvl than m+, then reread the last sentence of the last quote.
    Split runs aren't issue of this thread, but they are relevant evidence against a claim saying hc is useless gearing wise if m+ drops higher ilvl. How hard concept is that to grasp? I suggest you think deeply before replying again...

    For example the last season was 465 vs 460. But this just shows again you have zero attention span, you couldve checked that up in 10seconds and avoided making a dumb point.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by facefist View Post
    Split runs aren't issue of this thread, but they are relevant evidence against a claim saying hc is useless gearing wise if m+ drops higher ilvl. How hard concept is that to grasp? I suggest you think deeply before replying again...

    For example the last season was 465 vs 460. But this just shows again you have zero attention span, you couldve checked that up in 10seconds and avoided making a dumb point.
    So last season characters got 2 raids in vs. how many mythic dungeons again? Where did the majority of loot characters were wearing come from?

  16. #256
    The only thing I don't understand in the ilvl ladder, is why LFR is so high. It should reward heroic instance lvl of blue gear, and remain below mythic0. It should just act as a story mode for casual players.

  17. #257
    You can litteraly *wipe* in m+ (15) and still succeed, assuming you're not massively undergeared.
    You can actually fail timing the key and you still get more loot per person. You can't fail a raidboss and get gear.
    You can put together a group for a m+ in 5 minutes or less at any time you want, the same cannot be said for a raid group.
    M+ is less time consuming than raiding.
    M+ doesn't have lockouts, you can just spam them.

    The notion that m+ should reward gear equal to that of hc raiding has always been ridiculous. However, I do think once you go really high the gear rewards could go up (~20), this would leave an out for those considering m+ the only endgame.

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