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  1. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    Rewards are a big part of the game.
    So no, I can not.

    If raids gave no rewards, few would run them. same with all forms of content. Rewards are important.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No, the dungeons give you normal gear even in the cases where the dungone itself is far harder than a mythic boss.
    You also just get one item every 5 runs.
    But you do get rewards, they did not take them away they just changed how much can drop.

    Its Blizzards way of trying to get people to test more content, why dont you do a raid now and then on top of your m+?

    It felt like in BFA you had to do m+ to stay competitive in raids, so for once now its the other way around.

  2. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    The only really difficult part of running a mythic guild is recruiting and that's because it's tedious and no one wants to do it. One person alone is capable of recruiting and handling guild administration. Fortunately, guilds (and raid groups) are bigger than one person and most of that work can be delegated to multiple people. Further, raid guilds tend to have larger pools of available players.

    High-end Mythic plus groups, on the other hand, tend to be 5 players with an occasional extra. Those players often need to have multiple characters for different dungeons.

    See what I'm getting at? We can argue with each other all day about the merits and demerits of the various kinds of content. The fact of the matter is that people play all of them and they're all of comparable difficulty. If we want to be truly honest with ourselves, all PvE content pales in comparison to PvP content when it comes to difficulty... but you're not going to see many people arguing in favor of PvP because... most of us don't like it. I certainly don't. Even so, I think it should have the same quality gear as raiding, which should have the same quality gear as mythic plus.
    Did he really argue organizing 5 man is as difficult as 20 man? LOL

    Have to have alts for difficult dungeons? have you heard of raid stacking? LoL

    M+ is the path of least resistance, there will always be more ppl doing M+ than mythic raids.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Melliodas View Post
    But you do get rewards, they did not take them away they just changed how much can drop.

    Its Blizzards way of trying to get people to test more content, why dont you do a raid now and then on top of your m+?

    It felt like in BFA you had to do m+ to stay competitive in raids, so for once now its the other way around.
    No, they give rewards that are not relevant in the content you're doing. It could just as well be just gold. You are forced to raid to do well in M+ even though doing well in M+ gives you nothing. It's just bad design.

    I do raid. Cleared every tier since vanilla.

    I did like M+ as a alternative way to gear up however. It made the game more fun when you had relevant content that you could do with just a small set of close friends, not 20+ people.

    They killed off m+ in this expansion and it's a shame. It was a good idea back in Legion.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    No, they give rewards that are not relevant in the content you're doing. It could just as well be just gold. You are forced to raid to do well in M+ even though doing well in M+ gives you nothing. It's just bad design.

    I do raid. Cleared every tier since vanilla.

    I did like M+ as a alternative way to gear up however. It made the game more fun when you had relevant content that you could do with just a small set of close friends, not 20+ people.

    They killed off m+ in this expansion and it's a shame. It was a good idea back in Legion.
    I think its a bit early to tell before the expansion is even released, but Im not gonna tell you what to think.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by ShaanuJaanu View Post
    Did he really argue organizing 5 man is as difficult as 20 man? LOL

    Have to have alts for difficult dungeons? have you heard of raid stacking? LoL

    M+ is the path of least resistance, there will always be more ppl doing M+ than mythic raids.
    Yes, I've heard of raid stacking. It's something that top-10 guilds do to achieve their early kills and something that some top-100 guilds do to make themselves feel like they're competitive. It's also something that the vast majority of guilds clearing Mythic raids will ultimately not do because it's not required for anything other than top-10 kills.

    Yes, I did argue that organizing a 5-man is roughly as difficult. Why? Because raiding guilds have this thing called a "roster". This roster is usually about 30 players deep. This means that up to 10 people can simply not show up and the raid doesn't have to be cancelled, especially if the remaining 20 people are minimally competent with their alts. Note that I said "minimally competent," because I'm going to call back to that in a bit.

    Compare that to a Mythic plus group. These groups are usually a solid 5 player team. No roster, no bench, just 5 people who have been running Mythic plus together for weeks/months. They all know the exact path and the exact timing of when to use their cooldowns. If any single one of these players is unable to attend, then there's no point in running because they can't be reliably competitive without having to train up another player. Additionally, if they need another class/spec for a certain dungeon, they have to have advanced skills in that spec, because being minimally competent doesn't cut it in high-end Mythic plus (Best case scenario: You hit the timer. Worst case: you can't even survive long enough to make it that far).

    Consider: When a mythic raid is working on a boss, what goes into practicing? Well, they familiarize themselves with the boss's abilities, the timing of those abilities, and the layout of the room... and then they put in attempts. Any competent player can be brought in and brought up to speed in less than 10 minutes and should be fitting in within 3 or 4 attempts. Between attempts, they might make adjustments. Failed attempts take, what, 2-3 minutes early on, 5 or so minutes after that, and then up to 7-8 minutes when nearing a kill. Add in a couple of minutes per attempt to regroup and rebuff and that's some pretty quick turnaround.

    Now also consider: When a Mythic plus group is working on a dungeon, what goes into practicing? Well, first they plot a path through the dungeon, picking and choosing which packs to interact with, likely places to use cooldowns, likely places for skips, likely adjustments for that week's affixes. Just like raid groups, they have to learn and master the boss abilities, but they also have to learn and master the behaviors of trash mobs, which is essentially unheard of in mythic raiding. Then, they go into the dungeon and actually run it. They find the places where their cooldowns are just sitting unused and readjust their timing for later runs. They find packs that are difficult and make further adjustments. They get to bosses and figure out positioning and more cooldowns. The difference here, however, is that, when a group hits a hurdle in mythic plus, they don't just get to run back, make adjustments, and keep trying. No, when they make adjustments, they lose all of their progress and have to start over from the beginning of a dungeon that might take 30-40 minutes. When a new player is brought in, they have to go through this entire process again to adjust for the differences in spec/skill/play style.

    So, Mythic raiders have a relatively deep bench and relatively short adjustment cycle. They can still raid if 5+ people don't show up, the players that do show up are likely to have minimally competent alts that can fill any missing roles, and each wipe only ends up costing the group 2 or 3 minutes if the group is actually taking it seriously and there isn't a need to discuss strategy adjustments. When other people are brought in, it takes a minimal amount of time to bring them up to speed. Mythic plus groups, however, often have no bench at all and the adjustment cycle for a high-end dungeon requires starting over from the beginning of that dungeon. If your problem is with the last boss or trash leading up to the last boss, your reset cycle is 30+ minutes! Further, any players bringing alts have to be extremely skilled in those alts if they want to retain the same level of progress. Bringing a replacement player in requires going through an extended learning experience that involves readjusting everything from the beginning and multiple practice sessions that take upwards of 30-40 minutes each.

    Are you really arguing that organizing Mythic plus isn't difficult?



    Let me make things perfectly clear here: When I play WoW, I'm a raider, through and through. If I'm not participating in the highest raiding difficulty, I don't want to play WoW. I will always sing the praises of high-end raiding. I am also, however, fair and not stuck up my own ass. Mythic raiding is great but, outside of top-10 kills, it's not nearly as difficult as your average Mythic raider would have you believe. High end Mythic plus, though? That shit is hard. In fact, it's easily the hardest PvE content in the game simply by the virtue of it scaling infinitely, though that's certainly not the only reason that it's hard.

    I should also note that no one has really argued about my inclusion of PvP in my posts. PvP is the hardest content in the game, period. Why should it not have the same ilvl as mythic raiding?
    Last edited by Belloc; 2020-11-17 at 07:29 PM.
    Grand Crusader Belloc <-- 6608 Endless Tank Proving Grounds score! (
    Dragonslayer Kooqu

  6. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Belloc View Post
    --snipping for space management---
    Things top 10 guilds do is copied by most guilds in the top 100 I'd say. Def not all but a lot of them.

    Ive never been in a mythic guild with a 30man roster, this past tier I raided in a top 100 US guild that had a ~23man roster and a FnF guild that cleared 12/12m in September which had a 24man roster. 20% of either roster not showing up meant raid was canceled just the same as a 5man grp. Raid can also be cancelled by key individual players not being there. Your tank(s) may be irreplaceable or maybe you don't have enough immunities online for a certain boss or healers.

    Picking up pugs for mythic raids is not advised but pugs in M+ are much easier. Assuming they have the exp in the dungeon boss strats in M+ are pretty straight forward, unlike the huge amounts of variation you see from raid team to raid team. If the pug does mess up and die individual deaths are much easier to recover from. You can't release and run back on a boss fight.

    Its strange that you use the argument for class knowledge in benefit of M+ and brush off class stackin in raids like only 10 guilds do it. WHEN ITS FOR THE SAME REASON. Certain classes excel in certain dungeons/fights so the difference between having them there or not is huge.

    Thinking you can swap someone in/out on a difficult mythic boss and they are good to go in 4 pulls. Nice meme.
    It can take dozens of pulls for people to figure optimal cd usage in any given raid grp. It takes this long because everyone is doing it at once which results in variable push times, add kill/spawn times, etc...
    5man bosses are WAY simpler than mythic bosses and much shorter duration but you put a 5man doing its boss ability planning on the same pedestal as a mythic raid team? kekw. AND no when a grp fails a timer they do get to push on and finish practicing the run. You can spend hours and hours in a M+ deciding which pulls you like/hate, or how to do a boss best. Guess how you get to practice the end of a raid boss fight? You have to get there ALIVE. Even better the M+ run still rewards loot!

    So Mythic raiders have similar bench availability, just as long adjustment cycle, have a harder time picking up pugs. Both modes and can be scaled to impossibility. M+ scales through dungeon level but try doing mythic n'zoth with 10 people and let me know how it goes. Pushing past +15's is purely for epeen just like pushing for ranks in raiding but if you wanna complete either content type either 15's in all dungeons or mythic raid I assure you, the raiding is harder to manage.

  7. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    Wouldn't that make m+ extremely easy after you gear in heroic raiding? Do I miss something?
    It is to prevent the other way around. Raiding is and always will be the "big endgame". So it can make stuff easier, but nothing besides raiding should trivialize it.

  8. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    No, the dungeons give you normal gear even in the cases where the dungone itself is far harder than a mythic boss.
    You also just get one item every 5 runs.
    ? In EP times, dungeon chest was ilvl 410 when heroic dropped 400. The actual dungeons dropped 400, which was equal to heroic. I have no clue what you're talking about.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Melliodas View Post
    I think its a bit early to tell before the expansion is even released, but Im not gonna tell you what to think.
    There is no changes planned for m+ as this stage and they sure aren't making them after the expansion is out.
    If anything, it's too late to do anything about it.

  10. #170
    I really liked mythic plus dungeons being made less significiant and raiding being more important.

    I actually played too little bfa because gearing was so easy...

    Every content patch ilvl is increased by cca 30-50.
    And after just few days of running m+ I already had too strong gear.
    While completely skipping raids.

    I want gearing to be more difficult and take longer then that.

    Its still not too bad for mythic+ but I like it this way a lot more.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Wadrak View Post
    I actually played too little bfa because gearing was so easy...
    This isn't a BfA problem. The very first tier if Legion had the world first guild complaining they had to do an insane amount of 5man grind, because they could so they had to.

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by Wadrak View Post
    I really liked mythic plus dungeons being made less significiant and raiding being more important.

    I actually played too little bfa because gearing was so easy...

    Every content patch ilvl is increased by cca 30-50.
    And after just few days of running m+ I already had too strong gear.
    While completely skipping raids.

    I want gearing to be more difficult and take longer then that.

    Its still not too bad for mythic+ but I like it this way a lot more.
    Not sure if you missed the part where all forms of content always wanted raid trinkets in bfa...
    Or if you missed the part where heroic raid is a loot pinata, as it has been for years now. Even in BfA if I was trying to be as efficient as possible with gearing, why would I do M+ when I could get showered in drops from bosses that die every 5-10 minutes? Who cares about a weekly lockout— it's only going to take one or two.

    The lower drop rates and removal of titanforging are great, I'm with you if that's your point. Removal of bonus rolls? Sure. But slapping M+ isn't necessary. Blizz could simply tune the top end higher so that it's not feasible for any except the top end of M+ to do them at the start. Or is that unfair? should everyone have access to the laughably easy max-ilvl requirements for M+ weekly chest gear? Seems like that'd be a good starting place to slow down gearing.
    Last edited by Spazzix; 2020-11-19 at 07:26 AM.
    SorryNotSorry

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by epigramx View Post
    This isn't a BfA problem. The very first tier if Legion had the world first guild complaining they had to do an insane amount of 5man grind, because they could so they had to.
    Yes it was in Legion as well. But Mythic+ was new in Legion players werent that good
    handling affixes as they are now.


    Quote Originally Posted by Spazzix View Post
    Or if you missed the part where heroic raid is a loot pinata, as it has been for years now.
    Heroic raiding is not that hard when there is Mythic arround.
    But heroic raiding is made easier because raid members have gear from m+
    which makes it easier. Even if you didnt have gear from m+
    your raid members did. Even few items can tip the scale.


    Quote Originally Posted by Spazzix View Post
    The lower drop rates and removal of titanforging are great, I'm with you if that's your point.
    Yes thats my point. Lower drop rates are awesome.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Neuroticaine View Post
    As opposed to making raiding easy by over gearing it with M15+ giving higher than heroic raid gear?

    Besides, it's not so much the gear that matters with higher keys as it is executing mechanics. Gear will only carry you so much.
    This so much! early season 4 party was completing 21s comfortably tyranical (good players)

    470 ilvl
    barely any sockets
    30-40 corruption resistance
    level 80 neck
    no choice of vendor

    Fast forward to the end of the expansion and everyone is ripping the same 21 keys with
    480 ilvl
    full sockets
    125 resistance
    level 90-95 neck
    choice of bis corruption

    I dont think the casuals realise just how bad they are when they are ignoring mechanics etc trying to brute force everything like well..... noobs

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by odamienskii View Post
    This so much! early season 4 party was completing 21s comfortably tyranical (good players)

    470 ilvl
    barely any sockets
    30-40 corruption resistance
    level 80 neck
    no choice of vendor

    Fast forward to the end of the expansion and everyone is ripping the same 21 keys with
    480 ilvl
    full sockets
    125 resistance
    level 90-95 neck
    choice of bis corruption

    I dont think the casuals realise just how bad they are when they are ignoring mechanics etc trying to brute force everything like well..... noobs
    This has been a trend since Legion. Blizzard are letting bad players overcome content simply by outgearing it. Instead of getting better at the game they just make the content artificially easier and the players get the sensation that they have improved.. which they haven’t. Blizzard have been giving the players a fake sense of progress.

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Raiders should know self control and not go into "I am forced."

    Instead when something is made as an alternate path treat it as such. Not as a chore. If you're raid leader is being an arse about it tell him to fuck himself with a rusty spork.
    Only way that happens is if it's __actually__ an alternative path... you know, something you choose either/or.

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by BeepBoo View Post
    Only way that happens is if it's __actually__ an alternative path... you know, something you choose either/or.
    Or people have self control. Does anyone put a gun to your head or do you have 0 self control over the issue. It's either or.

  18. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Kallisto View Post
    Or people have self control. Does anyone put a gun to your head or do you have 0 self control over the issue. It's either or.
    I shouldn't have to "have self control" to be as best equipped as possible. Gear should be more deterministic all around, from the expected timeline you can realistically get BIS, to BIS even being a thing again not tied behind huge multi-factor RNG, to not having to no-lyfe to brute force the system's horrible odds of mutli-layered stat RNG.

    While someone is out there nolyfing or getting uber-lucky on their rolls, I'm going to be upset, because that makes it harder for me to epeen stroke.

  19. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    This has been a trend since Legion. Blizzard are letting bad players overcome content simply by outgearing it. Instead of getting better at the game they just make the content artificially easier and the players get the sensation that they have improved.. which they haven’t. Blizzard have been giving the players a fake sense of progress.
    It has been a trend since long before legion. But at the same time, there's only so many bullshit mechanics you can throw at people before they get bored.

  20. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Aggrophobic View Post
    M+ is just not worht doing anymore.
    Unless you don't like to or don't have time to raid. Which is kinda what it was introduced as in the first place.
    The most difficult thing for people to do is objectively look at something they don't like and be able to accept that it is not bad, that other people like it, and if it was changed to the way they'd like it that other people would not like it and want it changed back. The second most is to receive something they didn't want or ask for and be grateful for it, not immediately demand what they wanted instead.

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