I don't get something about m+15 dropping lower gear than heroic raiding

[Aggrophobic]

Unless you don't like to or don't have time to raid. Which is kinda what it was introduced as in the first place.

Only m+ never rewards you better than normal raiding and even then, normal raids give you much more gear, much faster and much, much easier.
HC is way beyond m+ and that, just like normal raids is just free loot.

No, m+ is pointless in Shadowlands no matter if you like it or not.

[BeepBoo]

No, m+ is pointless in Shadowlands no matter if you like it or not.

Doesn't the weekly M+ chest cap still reward on par with heroic/mythic (I can't remember)? That's pretty similar to raid loot expectation. ~1 good piece a week. M+ can be infinitely ground out, is generally much easier to coordinate (though not necessarily lower in the skill requirement) due to needing fewer people, etc. You can definitely do one +15 (or whatever the cap is) faster than you can do a whole raid.

What they wanted to get rid of is endlessly grinding M+ 24/7. The way it was previously, M+ was definitely the fastest and best way to get gear, especially if you weren't in a reliable full-clear mythic raid guild.

Ergo, no, m+ isn't pointless. Endlessly grinding it 10-20 times a week is. I see no problem here.

[kenn9530]

Wouldn't that make m+ extremely easy after you gear in heroic raiding? Do I miss something?

mythic plus should of never gave anything better than heroic raiding gear at most anyway, raiding mythic should be the only way to get that level of gear, but im pretty sure with the weekly chest you can still get mythic raiding level loot, unless your doing mythic raiding you dont require the gear anyway so it should only be obtainable by mythic raiding.

Only m+ never rewards you better than normal raiding and even then, normal raids give you much more gear, much faster and much, much easier.
HC is way beyond m+ and that, just like normal raids is just free loot.

No, m+ is pointless in Shadowlands no matter if you like it or not.

Its hardly pointless, most raiding just done the 15 for the weekly chest anyway and it can be used to get items you might be missing, its like saying raiding mythic is pointless once you have all the items you require. Mythic plus will also be good for gearing alts you might not have time to raid with.

[ymirsson]

*should have

[Aggrophobic]

Its hardly pointless, most raiding just done the 15 for the weekly chest anyway and it can be used to get items you might be missing, its like saying raiding mythic is pointless once you have all the items you require. Mythic plus will also be good for gearing alts you might not have time to raid with.

That makes no sense. You get nothing worth the effort from m+ if you raid and if you only do m+ then the gear you get there is not good enough to use in the content you want to do.

M+ is 100% pointless.

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Doesn't the weekly M+ chest cap still reward on par with heroic/mythic (I can't remember)? That's pretty similar to raid loot expectation. ~1 good piece a week. M+ can be infinitely ground out, is generally much easier to coordinate (though not necessarily lower in the skill requirement) due to needing fewer people, etc. You can definitely do one +15 (or whatever the cap is) faster than you can do a whole raid.

What they wanted to get rid of is endlessly grinding M+ 24/7. The way it was previously, M+ was definitely the fastest and best way to get gear, especially if you weren't in a reliable full-clear mythic raid guild.

Ergo, no, m+ isn't pointless. Endlessly grinding it 10-20 times a week is. I see no problem here.

No, it does not. and no it was not the best way.

[archelos91]

because mythic+ doesn't have lockouts

[crazyman2]

The last two tiers both had a major issue, it was so easy to get gear that the bosses had to be tuned tighter.

So you get halfway into mythic and your guild hits the wall because *you're just not good enough*.
The whole raid is decked out in early mythic/m15 gear (and has been since the early months of the tier), you still can't beat the enrage on Ashvane, and the guilds burn out. And if you did kill her, everything got vendored unless the overpowered trinket dropped.

In the past, it took so much longer to get gear, that tuning could be much more forgiving - i.e - doing Lady Vashj with a significant portion of the raid not even having T5 2pc/with a lot of T4 quality gear. So you did SSC for months, the raid slowly gears up, and eventually you overcome it by gear rather than "getting gud".

In recent tiers, you could get an average ilvl *above the mythic raid drops* in a month or two largely in part to m+. But after that, you're praying for titanforges and bis corruptions, any dps upgrade you get from that point on is incremental. If you can't kill a boss, you really can't kill that boss, it's not a matter of grinding the raid for a couple weeks and getting the gear you need to do it.

M+15 base drops being lower than heroic make it way harder to gear up for raiding. You can get to 210, but it makes it worthwhile for mythic progression guilds to keep doing heroic to get up to 213, and between early mythic gear and the weekly chests, you'll inch closer to mythic ilvls but probably not surpass them until near tier-end. If they tune accordingly, they could make a big difference.

[ONCHEhap]

The last two tiers both had a major issue, it was so easy to get gear that the bosses had to be tuned tighter.

So you get halfway into mythic and your guild hits the wall because *you're just not good enough*.
The whole raid is decked out in early mythic/m15 gear (and has been since the early months of the tier), you still can't beat the enrage on Ashvane, and the guilds burn out. And if you did kill her, everything got vendored unless the overpowered trinket dropped.

In the past, it took so much longer to get gear, that tuning could be much more forgiving - i.e - doing Lady Vashj with a significant portion of the raid not even having T5 2pc/with a lot of T4 quality gear. So you did SSC for months, the raid slowly gears up, and eventually you overcome it by gear rather than "getting gud".

In recent tiers, you could get an average ilvl *above the mythic raid drops* in a month or two largely in part to m+. But after that, you're praying for titanforges and bis corruptions, any dps upgrade you get from that point on is incremental. If you can't kill a boss, you really can't kill that boss, it's not a matter of grinding the raid for a couple weeks and getting the gear you need to do it.

M+15 base drops being lower than heroic make it way harder to gear up for raiding. You can get to 210, but it makes it worthwhile for mythic progression guilds to keep doing heroic to get up to 213, and between early mythic gear and the weekly chests, you'll inch closer to mythic ilvls but probably not surpass them until near tier-end. If they tune accordingly, they could make a big difference.

on top of the issue presented by the fact that m+ had no lockout and that one run dropped two to 3 times more loot than one raid boss,the vast amount of items from dungeons meant that virtually every combination of stats was available through m+,meaning that a m+ piece of equal ilvl was essentially always better than one from a raid,with the exception of trinkets that are always on a case by case basis.

So yeah,m+ gear was always problematic before Shadowlands

[BeepBoo]

No, it does not. and no it was not the best way.

Most people disagree with your "no it was not", especially if you were in a heroic guild that just dabbled in mythic tier (seeing as how the weekly M+ chest was the ONLY way you'd get decked out in mythic level gear).

As for the "no, it doesn't"

I was under the impression M+ chest was rolled into "the great vault" and you got to choose your path to getting the weekly chest.

Also, I can find sources saying the mythic base ilvl is 226 and the weekly chest (the great vault) ilvl is... you guessed it... 226. Heroic raid is 213.
https://www.wowhead.com/news=318110/...in-shadowlands


What are you complaining about? Not having an endlessly farmable source of base heroic ilvl gear that can McForge into mythic base ilvl gear?

[kenn9530]

That makes no sense. You get nothing worth the effort from m+ if you raid and if you only do m+ then the gear you get there is not good enough to use in the content you want to do.

M+ is 100% pointless.

The weekly chest from mythic plus should drop mythic raid quality loot, and the rest you should be getting around heroic raiding gear so whats pointless about that. It also lets you get more gear for each raid tier otherwise you will have to do raidfinder/normal and heroic to get enough gear to start pushing mythic.

Not everyone raids, only a small percentage of the playebase actually do anything past heroic/normal raiding so mythic plus is the only instanced content available to the rest of the playerbase

[cparle87]

Only m+ never rewards you better than normal raiding and even then, normal raids give you much more gear, much faster and much, much easier.
HC is way beyond m+ and that, just like normal raids is just free loot.

No, m+ is pointless in Shadowlands no matter if you like it or not.

I love how you use your opinions as proof of your proclamations, then tell others your opinions are fact whether they liked it or not. Normal raids take time, more than a keystone does. That's its purpose.

[Aggrophobic]

I love how you use your opinions as proof of your proclamations, then tell others your opinions are fact whether they liked it or not. Normal raids take time, more than a keystone does. That's its purpose.

What are you on about? Normal and HC are easy enough that you clear them on the first nigth of raiding.
Thats not my opinion, thats how the game is and always has been designed.

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The weekly chest from mythic plus should drop mythic raid quality loot, and the rest you should be getting around heroic raiding gear so whats pointless about that. It also lets you get more gear for each raid tier otherwise you will have to do raidfinder/normal and heroic to get enough gear to start pushing mythic.

Not everyone raids, only a small percentage of the playebase actually do anything past heroic/normal raiding so mythic plus is the only instanced content available to the rest of the playerbase

No it does not, it gives you normal raid gear. In any case, that means that someone that does m+ needs around 15-30 weeks to get the best gear they can while a raider gets theirs (and much better at that) in a few weeks.

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Most people disagree with your "no it was not", especially if you were in a heroic guild that just dabbled in mythic tier (seeing as how the weekly M+ chest was the ONLY way you'd get decked out in mythic level gear).

As for the "no, it doesn't"

I was under the impression M+ chest was rolled into "the great vault" and you got to choose your path to getting the weekly chest.

Also, I can find sources saying the mythic base ilvl is 226 and the weekly chest (the great vault) ilvl is... you guessed it... 226. Heroic raid is 213.
https://www.wowhead.com/news=318110/...in-shadowlands


What are you complaining about? Not having an endlessly farmable source of base heroic ilvl gear that can McForge into mythic base ilvl gear?

Mythic is 233 but in any case, you still won't have gear enough to do m+15 before the current patch is over of you only do dungeons or you can't raid.
M+ is a waste of time.

[Kaver]

What are you on about? Normal and HC are easy enough that you clear them on the first nigth of raiding.
Thats not my opinion, thats how the game is and always has been designed.

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No it does not, it gives you normal raid gear. In any case, that means that someone that does m+ needs around 15-30 weeks to get the best gear they can while a raider gets theirs (and much better at that) in a few weeks.

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Mythic is 233 but in any case, you still won't have gear enough to do m+15 before the current patch is over of you only do dungeons or you can't raid.
M+ is a waste of time.

Here are the facts mate:

1) The mythic raid will drop 226 loot (except for the 2 last bosses)

2) The mythic raid bosses will only drop 3 pieces of loot per boss so it will not only take a few weaks to gear in raiding.

3) M+ will give you a piece of 226 gear in the chest every week by only doing +15 keys.

4) +15 keys are easy content. If you cannot do a +15 key without being overgeared then you don’t deserve the loot in the first place.

[Marrilaife]

2) The mythic raid bosses will only drop 3 pieces of loot per boss so it will not only take a few weaks to gear in raiding.

Exactly. They lowered the boss loot from 5 pieces per kill to 3, and removed bonus rolls. All those attempts to "slow down how fast people finish gearing up" would fail if you could get BiS gear from any content that is spammable (read: end of m+ chest drops).

M+ in BFA dropping gear above heroic raiding was invalidating heroic and especially normal raiding, mythic was kinda trudging along but the participation in heroic pugs was way down, in Legion at least people were pugging raids for set bonuses, in BFA there was zero reason to, outside of a handful of OP trinkets, so you'd have half the group ditch after Ashvane for example because they only ever need the trinket.

[Kaver]

Exactly. They lowered the boss loot from 5 pieces per kill to 3, and removed bonus rolls. All those attempts to "slow down how fast people finish gearing up" would fail if you could get BiS gear from any content that is spammable (read: end of m+ chest drops).

M+ in BFA dropping gear above heroic raiding was invalidating heroic and especially normal raiding, mythic was kinda trudging along but the participation in heroic pugs was way down, in Legion at least people were pugging raids for set bonuses, in BFA there was zero reason to, outside of a handful of OP trinkets, so you'd have half the group ditch after Ashvane for example because they only ever need the trinket.

It’s ridiculous how much people complain because they have gotten used to all the welfare gear in Legion and BFA. Before Legion you had no chance of getting max gear without mythic raiding (or high end pvp). Now you can get max gear just by doing some +15 keys and they still complain. It’s still not good enough for them.

[dcc626]

It’s ridiculous how much people complain because they have gotten used to all the welfare gear in Legion and BFA. Before Legion you had no chance of getting max gear without mythic raiding (or high end pvp). Now you can get max gear just by doing some +15 keys and they still complain. It’s still not good enough for them.

the same people who are crying about reduced loot are the same ones who were telling everyone about the evils of forging/corruption. gotta pick a side.

[Kaver]

the same people who are crying about reduced loot are the same ones who were telling everyone about the evils of forging/corruption. gotta pick a side.

That’s not true at all. People who cry about the reduced loot are people who liked the welfare nature of titanforging.

Most people in the higher brackets of the game welcome both the removal of titanforging and the reduction of loot frequency.

I’m not sure what you base your statement on but it’s definitely not true.

People should simply learn to play the game instead of relying on outgearing content.

[kenn9530]

No it does not, it gives you normal raid gear. In any case, that means that someone that does m+ needs around 15-30 weeks to get the best gear they can while a raider gets theirs (and much better at that) in a few weeks.

Nope your wrong, mythic plus 15 key weekly chest will give mythic raiding level loot, end loot in a 15 currently from normal bosses are 213 so equivelant to heroic raiding gear which you can spam and gear up, mythic plus content is not hard as long as the group is aware of all the tactics.

Even mythic raiders mythic plus is not pointless as you will still always be doing your 15 key so you always have one and chances for upgrades, and if mythic plus was removed what group instanced content would there be left if your not interested in raiding then the game would be even more dull.

I think they should remove the chance to get mythic raiding level gear at all from the weekly chest, you only need mythic gear if your doing mythic raiding and even then mythic plus would not be pointless.

[Aggrophobic]

Nope your wrong, mythic plus 15 key weekly chest will give mythic raiding level loot, end loot in a 15 currently from normal bosses are 213 so equivelant to heroic raiding gear which you can spam and gear up, mythic plus content is not hard as long as the group is aware of all the tactics.

Even mythic raiders mythic plus is not pointless as you will still always be doing your 15 key so you always have one and chances for upgrades, and if mythic plus was removed what group instanced content would there be left if your not interested in raiding then the game would be even more dull.

I think they should remove the chance to get mythic raiding level gear at all from the weekly chest, you only need mythic gear if your doing mythic raiding and even then mythic plus would not be pointless.

Again, mythic is 233 but besides that it'll still take you longer to gear up than the current patch will last making the content pointless.
What you think about this doesn't chnage the fact that Shadowlands is raid or play another game. No way around that.

Now thats fine I guess, I raid myself. It was fun to have other ways of playing the game though but clearly players had fun the "wrong way".

Shadowlands is really going down as a really lackluster expansion but we all knew that before it was even out of course.

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Here are the facts mate:

1) The mythic raid will drop 226 loot (except for the 2 last bosses)

2) The mythic raid bosses will only drop 3 pieces of loot per boss so it will not only take a few weaks to gear in raiding.

3) M+ will give you a piece of 226 gear in the chest every week by only doing +15 keys.

4) +15 keys are easy content. If you cannot do a +15 key without being overgeared then you don’t deserve the loot in the first place.

All content in WoW is easy. You'll never gear up with dungeons however while you will, as you say, do it in a few weeks while raiding.

[kenn9530]

Again, mythic is 233 but besides that it'll still take you longer to gear up than the current patch will last making the content pointless.
What you think about this doesn't chnage the fact that Shadowlands is raid or play another game. No way around that.

Now thats fine I guess, I raid myself. It was fun to have other ways of playing the game though but clearly players had fun the "wrong way".

Shadowlands is really going down as a really lackluster expansion but we all knew that before it was even out of course.

Only the last 2 bosses in mythic raids drop 233 items, the rest of the bosses will drop 226 which is the same level loot a weekly 15 chest is, also you still get the max loot from the weekly chest at 14 also, maybe check your info before making bold nonsense claims.

Raiding alone will not get you geared up fast at all, mythic plus is essential to get as much gear as possible for mythic raiding otherwise you are going in with heroic dungeon gear.