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  1. #41
    The Unstoppable Force Super Kami Dende's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I don't know. I guess I just had different expectations due to the unpruning. I thought maybe blizzard would bring back the DKs of old. But I guess not.
    What DK's of old? Apart from unholy presence which was rarely used over Frost Presence anyway. They've always been a low mobility class.

  2. #42
    It runs away, we grips it back. This is the way.

  3. #43
    The most annoying part is the levelling squish made it so for 80% of your levelling process you have neither wraith walk nor death's advance. Before level squish you were getting them around half-way the levelling process.

  4. #44
    Merely a Setback Adam Jensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackrunner01 View Post
    There's more to a class than mobility.

    DH is ALL mobility and you couldn't pay me to main that class.

    Also you stack up on speed pots. I must've burned through thousands of Lightfoot/Draenic Speed/Skystep Potions.
    And I must have made thousands of gold off you

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    You are missing one vital thing ye, the base talent which increase run speed, Death's Advance. We got one base and one talent.

    We don't really have to run. We grip stuff to us instead.
    Except we dont which is what ive been posting about for years, half the enemies in the game cant even be gripped. Charges and other similar abilities work 100% of the time.

    Im not saying we should be fast comparitively with other classes but we are slow to the point where its not fun imo, and im saying that as someone who has mained DK since it launched and will continue to do so. I love everything about the class but the mobility seriously pisses me off.

  6. #46
    Yes you are slow and not better than a fast class.
    That's the class fantasy.
    Like in war3, where the dk had an average speed and then would become the fastest hero with unholy aura.
    Ho wait, what were we talking about?

  7. #47
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Multiple posts about grip
    So none of you raid? You know seeing as you can't grip bosses?
    when you tank you don't need to grip a boss, he'll come to you anyways and you don't need movement speed. When you don't tank - you have one MS boost and can't be slowed below 70%, which is already more than fine for raiding

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    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Except we dont which is what ive been posting about for years, half the enemies in the game cant even be gripped. Charges and other similar abilities work 100% of the time.

    Im not saying we should be fast comparitively with other classes but we are slow to the point where its not fun imo, and im saying that as someone who has mained DK since it launched and will continue to do so. I love everything about the class but the mobility seriously pisses me off.
    How often you find a non-grippable enemy that actively runs away from you for that to even matter?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tarba View Post
    Yes you are slow and not better than a fast class.
    That's the class fantasy.
    Like in war3, where the dk had an average speed and then would become the fastest hero with unholy aura.
    Ho wait, what were we talking about?
    In war3 he also was on a mount, so...
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Marrilaife View Post
    The most annoying part is the levelling squish made it so for 80% of your levelling process you have neither wraith walk nor death's advance. Before level squish you were getting them around half-way the levelling process.
    As someone who spends a lot of time on speed leveling, I think this is probably what set me off in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    In war3 he also was on a mount, so...
    Which adds up for the increased mount speed that DKs also get.

    But here's the kicker: The Maw won't let you use mounts initially until you grind like a slave. And convenience items like the Flightmaster Whistle are also going away, along with nerfs to speed potions and not even Azerite traits to remedy the lack of base ground speed.

    All of which compounds on the already weak mobility of some classes. Which is going to force them into covenants like Venthyr or Night Fae, not because they LIKE the covenant, but because they feel they have to in order to not be gimped.

    Isn't that a problem?

  9. #49
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Which adds up for the increased mount speed that DKs also get.

    But here's the kicker: The Maw won't let you use mounts initially until you grind like a slave. And convenience items like the Flightmaster Whistle are also going away, along with nerfs to speed potions and not even Azerite traits to remedy the lack of base ground speed.

    All of which compounds on the already weak mobility of some classes. Which is going to force them into covenants like Venthyr or Night Fae, not because they LIKE the covenant, but because they feel they have to in order to not be gimped.

    Isn't that a problem?
    No, it's not a problem. And you are talking about travel speeds, not about mobility. Travel is fine for everyone, besides druids, because they are cheaters.
    And nothing forces you into any covenant but yourself - if you want to get this boost to your travel times you can get door of shadows, but majority of players won't give a damn that they'll have to do content on foot (or maybe they'll be forced to make friends with druids to do content with them and use them as a taxi). If you continue thinking like that, it forces you to dump your DK and play a druid instead, since they'll be able to use travel form just fine.

    Seriously, where all these "the game forced me to do it" thoughts come from?
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  10. #50
    Could be worse, you could be a warlock who's only speed increase is a talent that not only makes you give up defensive shields, but also murders you while it's active.

  11. #51
    The Lightbringer Minikin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    What.
    The.
    Fuck.
    Blizzard?

    How does anyone even enjoy playing such a slow class? I mean....holy crap guys. I genuinely feel bad for you, and have a lot of respect for anyone that stays with the class while dealing with literally the slowest class in the game. And with losing Azerite traits to increase speed, and
    The Maw not even allowing mounts? Tell me again why anyone would suffer that?

    Or am I missing something vital here?
    Death Grip
    Blood Elves were based on a STRONG request from a poll of Asian players where many remarked on the Horde side that they and their girlfriends wanted a non-creepy femme race to play (Source)

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    How often you find a non-grippable enemy that actively runs away from you for that to even matter?
    Thats completely irrelivant lmfao, you're just changing the goalposts to support your argument. My argument stands. You categorically cannot say that death grips movement potential is equal to that of other classes movement abilities such as charge/heroic leap, flying serpent kick etc when those abilities have a 100% success rate, on a boss, on a rooted enemy, on a mob that is immune to grip, you press charge and it will always work.

    Have a boss that blows you backwards such as the dragon in darkheart thicket? Charge, heroic leap, Fel rush, wings, divine steed, these will ALWAYS work, 100% of the time. Grip will never work. I hear so many people compare charge and grip as being opposite equals. They are not opposite equals at all lol.

    The above is why I find playing my DK so fucking frustrating. Sure deaths advance was a welcome change for the 1 time in the entire expansion where it actually comes in useful, but DK's movement is basically non existant and what it does have is almost never usable or never useful compared to most other classes abilities which are useful in almost 100% of encounters.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    No, it's not a problem. And you are talking about travel speeds, not about mobility. Travel is fine for everyone, besides druids, because they are cheaters.

    And nothing forces you into any covenant but yourself - if you want to get this boost to your travel times you can get door of shadows, but majority of players won't give a damn that they'll have to do content on foot (or maybe they'll be forced to make friends with druids to do content with them and use them as a taxi). If you continue thinking like that, it forces you to dump your DK and play a druid instead, since they'll be able to use travel form just fine.

    Seriously, where all these "the game forced me to do it" thoughts come from?
    I was actually speaking in terms of both mobility and travel speed. Part of the entire kit of DKs ability to move is balanced and considered(presumably) for it's total package. Classes like DK and Paladin get mount speed boosts both because of their lore, but also because of their lack of baseline movement and range. Both classes have SOME ranged abilities, but not on the same level as a priest or warlock, who are full ranged classes instead of hybrid. Both paladin and DK are very lacking in terms of combat mobility, which is balanced by increased speed when mounts are available.

    So if the end-game environment creates a situation where that balance is nullified, then shouldn't that be taken into consideration for the overall balance of the class? It's not any different than if a raid encounter is set up in such a way so that an entire spec is made into a bottom tier performer. Except that will classes and covenants you can't easily change. What we have now is a situation where DKs mobility will suck both in and out of combat in end-game areas(he Maw, M+ and Raids). How is this acceptable balance when Shadowlands is providing even less options to mitigate than ever before? What are DKs getting that other classes aren't, to make up for this?

    Simply saying "You choose to be gimped by not taking the speed increase" is fine if you don't play with people who care about performance. But on the level on the entire playerbase and class/covenant balance, it doesn't seem very fair. This is the entire problem with the Covenant system in general. And it's not really restricted to DKs either. Blizzard has created MANY situations where players are forced to choose between what they might enjoy thematically, and what they enjoy in terms of performance. There is no win/win situation for some specs.

    Dismissing these kinds of concerns isn't really a good stance to take. Given the overall situation, it's not at all unreasonable to say that many DKs WILL feel "forced" into picking a covenant solely based on the movement abilities rather than what they might otherwise prefer. And DKs will be even less mobile than they already are if they don't.

    Why is that ok?
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2020-11-14 at 09:10 AM.

  14. #54
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    You categorically cannot say that death grips movement potential is equal to that of other classes movement abilities such as charge/heroic leap, flying serpent kick etc when those abilities have a 100% success rate, on a boss, on a rooted enemy, on a mob that is immune to grip, you press charge and it will always work.
    I wasn't saying that and it shouldn't be equal to that of other classes.

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    The above is why I find playing my DK so fucking frustrating.
    Then you are playing wrong class and should switch to something you enjoy more
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    Still faster than priest, which has zero baseline movement abilities. You can talent into some mobility, but you lose survivability.

    I kinda like that DK's are slow, it fits the theme of just being a walking juggernaut that plagues and breaks down everything near it. Think about the LK chase in Halls of Reflection.
    You are parroting the new generation devs that said that above almost word by word. You are just clueless as them however since the scourge/unholy theme in warcraft was "frenzy" not slow moving juggernaut. You had increased movement speed in unholy ground and DKs literally came with a movement speed aura. DK is a shock trooper.
    Also in wotlk DK class had increased movement speed in unholy presence until they decided to botch the class in later expansions for the sake of class balance then made up "theme" justification for it.

  16. #56
    The people who talk about class fantasy are missing the point: not having mobility as a melee is a major disadvantage in raiding where mobility has such a huge impact that low mobility sometimes becomes bench criteria.

    The argument is also dumb in and off itself. DK was never a juggernaut. It was akin to a space marine: fast and hardhitting.
    Last edited by vulfrika; 2020-11-14 at 09:20 AM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    I wasn't saying that and it shouldn't be equal to that of other classes.


    Then you are playing wrong class and should switch to something you enjoy more
    Why should it not be equal or similar then, curious how you will explain it.

    Uhmmmm not really, DK's actual dps gameplay is my favorite, I just wish other classes such as warrior were more entertaining dps wise, if they were id just play them as they are way more rounded.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by vulfrika View Post
    The people who talk about class fantasy are missing the point: not having mobility as a melee is a major disadvantage in raiding where mobility has such a huge impact that low mobility sometimes becomes bench criteria.

    The argument is also dumb in and off itself. DK was never a juggernaut. It was akin to a space marine: fast and hardhitting.
    Dont know what you're talking about dude, DK's do min 2x more damage than any other melee class and are 3-5x harder to kill than all other melee classes to make up for their lack of mobility. Oh wait, they do the same damage as everyone else and are actually squishier than most melee classes!

  18. #58
    Titan Charge me Doctor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Why should it not be equal or similar then, curious how you will explain it.
    Because it's a RPG, all characters have their ups and downs. You sound like that guy powergaming a wizard in a dnd session, wanting to solve everything himself and being good at everything GM throws at you - that's not going to happen, that's why classes and specs have certain flaws in them
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by faithbane View Post
    You are parroting the new generation devs that said that above almost word by word. You are just clueless as them however since the scourge/unholy theme in warcraft was "frenzy" not slow moving juggernaut. You had increased movement speed in unholy ground and DKs literally came with a movement speed aura. DK is a shock trooper.
    Also in wotlk DK class had increased movement speed in unholy presence until they decided to botch the class in later expansions for the sake of class balance then made up "theme" justification for it.
    I mean, yeah, i'm mostly thinking about it from a balance PoV. Do you PvP? Do you really think that DK is designed worse now than it was in WotLK? It's not like the movement speed buffs you did get were substantial either. DK's were just good at getting other people to not move or come to them, like with the old CoI 100% decaying movement speed debuff.
    Last edited by Zypherz; 2020-11-14 at 10:50 AM.

  20. #60
    Death Knights for the longest time had unholy aura and were one of the fastest DPS till the end of WoD.

    What you see is LEGION (=BFA) nonsense where quite a few classes were stripped of raid utility (speed, soak, buffs) to make room for the demon hunter.

    Raiding is dead, grip is superior in M+/PVP/rest of the game, so who cares really?

    Waiting for the delayed/buggy combat ON/OFF just to be able to use stealth, charge what ever was allways way more anoying as everything a DK player has to deal with. The gras is only greener if you never played the other classes for some time.

    DH was the only outlier and the "hero class" status was prolonged for 2 expansion for no real reason. But thats gone now, they got pushed into dumpster tier, just as every other class (minus Warlocks, since half of the DEV team mains it)
    Last edited by Ange; 2020-11-14 at 11:00 AM.
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