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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Point me at mage self-healing please, because i still can't figure it out, unless you count cauterize (fire exclusive, which heals you back to 40% from a lethal blow and burns away 35% of your health) or alter time (arcane exclusive, which gives you an ability to "savescum" damage)
    Fire and Frost both have damage absorb shields, which are ablative health. While not actual heals, they serve a very similar function. A comparison would be like how a leap or a dash is not underlying movement speed, but still fills the purpose of getting your places.

    And according to Wowhead, Alter Time is now baseline, with arcane getting a different version(talented to 30 seconds).

    I don't pretend to be an expert on mages at all. But since you brought it up, I'd say that Mage self-healing probably needs a good look from Blizzard in the same way DKs need mobility. Just because another class has something deficient doesn't mean that DKs are ok.



    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Death grip, magic immunity, stun immunity, slow resistance, significantly better self-healing capabilities than anyone you mentioned - yeah, they have plenty of tools to stay on target. It's disingenuous to point at one ability and turn the blind eye on everything else, DKs are designed to be slow and they get tools they need to deal with it.

    If you really want that heroic leap this badly you'll have to roll a warrior, or rebalance DKs accordingly, would you be fine having a heroic leap, but no death's advance and deathgrip and AMS would only dispel magic, instead of making you immune to it? That's the kind of rebalancing it would require to give DKs abilities from other classes
    I literally just said, in the post you quoted, that I would talent OUT of Deathgrip in order to gain an actual mobility gain. What about that suggests to you that I would NOT be ok with any of the changes you just suggested?

    I think giving the player the option to choose their style of DK would be an overall improvement. Those who want the "unstoppable juggernaut" could talent into that. While those that want the "Devastating Frenzy of Undeath" version could pick that option.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Fire and Frost both have damage absorb shields, which are ablative health. While not actual heals, they serve a very similar function. ?
    No, they don't. One prevents damage, other heals damage taken. Mages don't have any self-healing, but i won't complain about their survivability. Kinda similar to DKs and movement, DKs don't have huge bursts of MS or a charge, but somehow they still don't log behind other melee players in PvE, and not a laughing stock in PvP.

    And no, mages self-healing shouldn't be looked at, we already experienced what it looks like, when blizzard homogenizes everything (WotLK)


    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I literally just said, in the post you quoted, that I would talent OUT of Deathgrip in order to gain an actual mobility gain. What about that suggests to you that I would NOT be ok with any of the changes you just suggested?
    Because then you wouldn't be playing a DK. You know, the idea of swapping features of your class in favor of features of another class sounds like... a case of rerolling a character, not a case of something broken.

    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    I think giving the player the option to choose their style of DK would be an overall improvement. Those who want the "unstoppable juggernaut" could talent into that. While those that want the "Devastating Frenzy of Undeath" version could pick that option.
    You do have that choice in form a talents and later in SL - covenants. Your "devastating frenzy of undeath" is literally unholy DK, unless you want DK to zoom around the battlefield like a ninja or something.

    On a broader scope - giving players access to this kind of customization is not very healthy for a videogame, because:
    1) powergaming is a thing and there will be a whole lot of broken builds
    2) being able to get advantages of one class, and advantages of another class, while losing their disadvantages is broken itself as an idea.
    Last edited by Charge me Doctor; 2020-11-14 at 05:20 PM. Reason: Apparently yes, all mages get alter time, but it's a level 58 ability for fire and frost
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    You'd want to check soulbinds then, do you think it's a coincidence, that you get MS boosting options in there? Grab kyrian, enjoy free 10% MS as long as you kill things on your way (and 35% MS bonus from steward), grab some MS potions from AH. Or night fae for 20% MS out of combat after kills. Or outright 30 minutes 20% MS boost when you spend some time in rested areas
    Can you provide actual links? The only info I couldn't find the 10% MS on kill anywhere. I do know that "on kill" effects are generally not reliable in groups, however, especially with DKs execute ability being rather limited. And certainly not useful mid-boss fight when you often need mobility on demand.

    And the Steward bonus appears to be a data-mined version or something. There's not a lot of info on how the ability works. But from the wowhead stats it would appear to be an aura of 100 yards. Whether that's a static item, or something that follows the player isn't clear. Because if it's an aura that's literally 30% movement that's on for 4 minutes, usable every 5 minutes, then you're right that DKs have no complaints at that point.

    However, if it's what I suspect: A static effect that only works in the 100y radius area that DOESN'T move, then that seems a bit more limited. Although certainly it would be excellent for a boss-arena.

    I am, however, starting to see that you have a point about there being more options than I first thought. I would point out, however, that classes that already have mobility will be able to choose more useful abilities while the DK is "forced" into choosing mobility instead of something else they might like. (Yes I used "forced". Just think of it in terms of "Strongly de-incentivized to choose something else)



    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    You imply that ranged dps don't have to move? Or is there a sort of encounter where the boss moves in circles non-stop and no one but those with +30% MS can keep up with it? I honestly don't think that it's fair to compare DKs mobility to warriors mobility, because that's two different classes with very different toolkits, isn't that the same thing?

    Speaking of "mid-range" performance of DKs, do you think that it's fair that DKs get to do DPS outside of melee range, while warriors can't do any DPS outside of melee range?
    No, I imply that ranged classes work under a different dynamic and balance that melee classes, with mobility having different priority. A ranged class can apply 99% of their abilities from anywhere in their effective range. While a melee class must generally close to...melee....in order to be effective.

    You're the one who brought up the comparison of locks and priests to DK, not me. I was just pointing out it was a flawed comparison.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Because then you wouldn't be playing a DK. You know, the idea of swapping features of your class in favor of features of another class sounds like... a case of rerolling a character, not a case of something broken.
    You mean like how many classes were gutted and completely altered in the name of "Class Fantasy"?

    Considering where DKs used to be in terms of playstyle options and original class design, it seems off-base to write what you just did. Another poster already pointed out how mobile DKs were all the way back to the original RTS games.

    So please don't use the argument that "I wouldn't be playing a DK" when the levels of mobility and movement I'm suggesting is basically just back to what the class STARTED with when it was introduced.


    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    On a broader scope - giving players access to this kind of customization is not very healthy for a videogame, because:
    1) powergaming is a thing and there will be a whole lot of broken builds
    2) being able to get advantages of one class, and advantages of another class, while losing their disadvantages is broken itself as an idea.
    [/quote]



    I don't have a problem with there being some disadvantages and advantages. My original point was that the mobility disadvantage for DKs is beyond what I believe to be fair. Punishing, even, when compared to other classes.

    Customization is not inherently bad. Path of Exile is a fine example of that. And I'm not saying Dks should be able to constantly move as fast as a Druid. I'm just saying they should have their overall baseline mobility increased a little so as to not be so damned punishing. There's a world of difference between that and "Powergaming", as you suggest.

    Anyway, we're arguing in circles. I'll at least concede that you have some fair points. And I'll continue to work on leveling and playing a DK of my own into Shadowlands to get some first hand experience. The only thing I would like to close with is that you should strongly consider not being so married to the idea that DK mobility is fine as it is, and try to look at it from the perspective of a fresh player to the class.
    Last edited by SirCowdog; 2020-11-14 at 05:40 PM.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Can you provide actual links? The only info I couldn't find the 10% MS on kill anywhere. I do know that "on kill" effects are generally not reliable in groups, however, especially with DKs execute ability being rather limited. And certainly not useful mid-boss fight when you often need mobility on demand.

    And the Steward bonus appears to be a data-mined version or something. There's not a lot of info on how the ability works. But from the wowhead stats it would appear to be an aura of 100 yards. Whether that's a static item, or something that follows the player isn't clear. Because if it's an aura that's literally 30% movement that's on for 4 minutes, usable every 5 minutes, then you're right that DKs have no complaints at that point.

    However, if it's what I suspect: A static effect that only works in the 100y radius area that DOESN'T move, then that seems a bit more limited. Although certainly it would be excellent for a boss-arena.

    I am, however, starting to see that you have a point about there being more options than I first thought. I would point out, however, that classes that already have mobility will be able to choose more useful abilities while the DK is "forced" into choosing mobility instead of something else they might like. (Yes I used "forced". Just think of it in terms of "Strongly de-incentivized to choose something else)

    I'm not sure why you jumped to raiding, i thought you was concerned about DKs on-foot travel time. But anyways, here is quite powerful MS ability, not sure how it will work in instanced content. You can check soulbind calc on wowhead yourself and you may find something more interesting to you. If you are concerned about forced choice - as an alternative to that MS boosting ability i linked you can get... an automatic slowfall when you fall from high heights.


    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    No, I imply that ranged classes work under a different dynamic and balance that melee classes, with mobility having different priority. A ranged class can apply 99% of their abilities from anywhere in their effective range. While a melee class must generally close to...melee....in order to be effective.

    You're the one who brought up the comparison of locks and priests to DK, not me. I was just pointing out it was a flawed comparison.
    Well then, as a class that lacks mobility but is able to, you know, deal damage from afar, like DK, isn't that fair that they don't get as many gapclosers as those, who can't do any damage outside of 5 yards of melee range?
    Quote Originally Posted by Urban Dictionary
    Russians are a nation inhabiting territory of Russia an ex-USSR countries. Russians enjoy drinking vodka and listening to the bears playing button-accordions. Russians are open- and warm- hearted. They are ready to share their last prianik (russian sweet cookie) with guests, in case lasts encounter that somewhere. Though, it's almost unreal, 'cos russians usually hide their stuff well.

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Charge me Doctor View Post
    Because it's a RPG, all characters have their ups and downs. You sound like that guy powergaming a wizard in a dnd session, wanting to solve everything himself and being good at everything GM throws at you - that's not going to happen, that's why classes and specs have certain flaws in them
    Well I hate to say it but pretty much by definition you are wrong.

    If you take a sample of the past 5 expansions, across all raids and sample melee pick rates, you will see certain classes have abysmal pick rates, and that is, I hate to say it Charge, because they are unbalanced.

    DK dosent make up for its huge pitfalls and never has, and as a result they have always had terrible pick rates in high end raiding compared to other classes, such as Warrior and Rogue. Again, all melee classes are balanced dps wise, by design. Sometimes some are slightly worse, or better, but blizzard aims to make them the same dps.

    Yet rogue and warrior have uncomparibly better survival, and a factor of 1000x better mobility. So again, ill ask you again, what is it that DK gets to make up for its lack of survival and mobility, because it isnt damage. You're talking about having ups and downs, and flaws, but if you thought about it you'd realise you're making no sense. Again, tell me the flaw of rogue, tell me the flaw of DH, tell me the flaw of warrior, tell me what it is that they do terrible, because I can tell you right now DK's mobility especially and survival secondly are shit. And they will never be comparable to a class like a rogue until they make changes.

    Do this exercise in your head. Make a radar chart with 5 categories. DPS, Burst, Survival, Utility, Mobility.

    I want you to mentally plot warrior rogue and DK onto those charts and tell me they are balanced. Because if you do that, you'll literally not be able to say they are.

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Doffen View Post
    You are missing one vital thing ye, the base talent which increase run speed, Death's Advance. We got one base and one talent.

    We don't really have to run. We grip stuff to us instead.
    That's the entire design mentality behind the class, pretty sure it was even addressed in a blue post years ago. The reason DK's aren't very mobile is a trade-off of being to snare in ST/AoE scenarios as well as being able to grip. If DK's had that toolkit plus were extremely mobile, that wouldn't be very balanced. No class/spec should be the best at everything, and this design is aligned with that sort of thinking.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Well I hate to say it but pretty much by definition you are wrong.

    If you take a sample of the past 5 expansions, across all raids and sample melee pick rates, you will see certain classes have abysmal pick rates, and that is, I hate to say it Charge, because they are unbalanced.

    DK dosent make up for its huge pitfalls and never has, and as a result they have always had terrible pick rates in high end raiding compared to other classes, such as Warrior and Rogue. Again, all melee classes are balanced dps wise, by design. Sometimes some are slightly worse, or better, but blizzard aims to make them the same dps.

    Yet rogue and warrior have uncomparibly better survival, and a factor of 1000x better mobility. So again, ill ask you again, what is it that DK gets to make up for its lack of survival and mobility, because it isnt damage. You're talking about having ups and downs, and flaws, but if you thought about it you'd realise you're making no sense. Again, tell me the flaw of rogue, tell me the flaw of DH, tell me the flaw of warrior, tell me what it is that they do terrible, because I can tell you right now DK's mobility especially and survival secondly are shit. And they will never be comparable to a class like a rogue until they make changes.

    Do this exercise in your head. Make a radar chart with 5 categories. DPS, Burst, Survival, Utility, Mobility.

    I want you to mentally plot warrior rogue and DK onto those charts and tell me they are balanced. Because if you do that, you'll literally not be able to say they are.
    Who you quoted was more correct, as everything depends on the content you're tackling, what specs we're talking about, and so forth. Such things can change from patch to patch based upon content changes and rebalancing, as well. I don't think you'll find anyone that would say Blizz always nails the balancing aspects perfectly, but that's not an argument for removing aspects which are in alignment with intended design goals... it should be the other way around.
    “Society is endangered not by the great profligacy of a few, but by the laxity of morals amongst all.”
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  7. #87
    I'm just going to come out and say it who thinks DK mobility is 'fine' and/or "always imagined dks as a slow unstoppable juggernaut" either doesn't play high-end PvE or started playing DK after legion, it's that simple.
    The fact is DK's are underrepresented at mythic level because their mobility is shit and they have very poor CC and utility (and on the whole middling damage and even when our damage is 'good' it's normally aoe/cleave damage not st). This is especially true for high mobility fights, it is simply the case that DK moblility is not 'good enough' in circumstances like that.

    The CC thing was the whole debacle with mass grip being too centralizing for encounter design (which is fair as far as dps goes) which we've never really been compensated for in any way, it's possible (and even likely) that the reintroduction AMZ will go aways to ameliorate this.

    As for mobility. Mobility is one of those 'invisible' stats people don't tend to think about at all until they don't have enough of it and on the other hand, once you have 'enough' it falls off the cliff of diminishing returns. As you can see in a fight like wrathion Dk's don't have 'enough'.

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    Compare a rogue kit to a DK kit to see how sorry it really is.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    What.
    The.
    Fuck.
    Blizzard?

    How does anyone even enjoy playing such a slow class? I mean....holy crap guys. I genuinely feel bad for you, and have a lot of respect for anyone that stays with the class while dealing with literally the slowest class in the game. And with losing Azerite traits to increase speed, and
    The Maw not even allowing mounts? Tell me again why anyone would suffer that?

    Or am I missing something vital here?
    its why we love flying mount :P

    and why im engineer

    by the way there 2 speed boost

    and if the maw stay like this with no mount at all, you'll see a lot of classe crying about the fact that class like rogue will have fun in it

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Deathknights get deathgrip and a distinct lack of mobility.

    The point being: What do other classes give up that makes it even with DKs giving up mobility in this way? This is problem I'm trying to wrap my head around. There's this idea that's apparently stuck in people's minds that Dks MUST be slow. Why? What balance is that serving? That's why I listed other classes and their abilities. Because they don't appear to be giving up anything.
    Ask warriors how many defensive cooldowns and self healing they have compared to DKs. Stun immunity? I would love that on my druid. How many classes have a ranged stun? Grips are essentially a warriors charge that also interrupt. Anti-magic shell can negate the application of fear/poly. Many abilities worked from a farther range than most melee specs.

    It's harder to CC a DK. You can close gaps. You can use abilities out of melee range.

    If you want to lose stuff like that, then sure.. You can have the mobility.
    Last edited by Ragnarohk; 2020-11-14 at 10:55 PM.

  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarohk View Post
    Ask warriors how many defensive cooldowns and self healing they have compared to DKs. Stun immunity? I would love that on my druid. How many classes have a ranged stun? Grips are essentially a warriors charge that also interrupt. Anti-magic shell can negate the application of fear/poly. Many abilities worked from a farther range than most melee specs.

    It's harder to CC a DK. You can close gaps. You can use abilities out of melee range.

    If you want to lose stuff like that, then sure.. You can have the mobility.
    Not only is there a talent to turn Victory rush into an on-demand heal every 30 seconds, but there's also Ignore Pain and Rallying Cry; both baseline. Prot warriors have a passive heal for rage expenditure. Fury warriors heal with every bloodthirst, and has enraged regeneration, as well as a PVP talent to reduce it's cooldown, and Battle Trance. Arms has Impending Victory and Second Wind. Oh....and Warriors have incredible mobility via charge, intervene, leap, pvp charge, and the ability to remove roots/snares with Avatar, immunity to fear/sap/incapacitate, and spell reflect for magic.

    Grip is NOT charge. That's a point that many have made in this thread. Yes, it serves as a gap closer on targets that can be gripped. But it is NOT mobility. A melee class, being able to use some abilities at range is not a replacement for being able to physically put yourself where you need to be more easily. Unless you're going to try to make the argument that DK's are 100% effective at range? Which would be deeply flawed.

    Take away the preconceived notion that DKs MUST be slow for thematic reasons, and you'll see that even with the strengths that DKs have, the overall balance is out of whack. Several veteran DK players have made this point. I'm just reinforcing it.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    What.
    The.
    Fuck.
    Blizzard?

    How does anyone even enjoy playing such a slow class? I mean....holy crap guys. I genuinely feel bad for you, and have a lot of respect for anyone that stays with the class while dealing with literally the slowest class in the game. And with losing Azerite traits to increase speed, and
    The Maw not even allowing mounts? Tell me again why anyone would suffer that?

    Or am I missing something vital here?
    you can pull a single or large group of enemies to your location from a respectable range? cry more?

  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    you can pull a single or large group of enemies to your location from a respectable range? cry more?
    Can you grip wrathion in for me next pull? Thanks bud!
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Can you grip wrathion in for me next pull? Thanks bud!
    i mean... you have to move like two times in P1 and a little bit it P2 while you focus the adds and shards all the mechanics of this fight can be handled by like... a single hunter

    Gale Blast is basically negated by deaths advance
    The assassins are grippable
    Anti magic shell soaks most of incineration

    What are you crying about? having to move to one end of the zone 2 times?

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    i mean... you have to move like two times in P1 and a little bit it P2 while you focus the adds and shards all the mechanics of this fight can be handled by like... a single hunter

    Gale Blast is basically negated by deaths advance
    The assassins are grippable
    Anti magic shell soaks most of incineration

    What are you crying about? having to move to one end of the zone 2 times?
    1. Shifting goal posts. Can you grip wrathion in for me or not?
    2. If wrathion isn't a high mobility fight and DK's don't suffer under these conditions want to explain this?
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    I kinda like that DK's are slow, it fits the theme of just being a walking juggernaut that plagues and breaks down everything near it. Think about the LK chase in Halls of Reflection.
    this. i kind of always imagined being like jason vorhees where when ur getting chased he's just walking towards you slow and menacingly but as you keep running and look back he's still the same distance behind you, still walking slowly and menacingly.

  16. #96
    DKs don't have to move fast because DKs don't have to move for anyone.

  17. #97
    Only time speed has been an issue on my DK was when I was fighting an Arcane mage with some janky ass bullshit speed build using chrono shift, could not keep up with em at all.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    That's the entire design mentality behind the class, pretty sure it was even addressed in a blue post years ago. The reason DK's aren't very mobile is a trade-off of being to snare in ST/AoE scenarios as well as being able to grip. If DK's had that toolkit plus were extremely mobile, that wouldn't be very balanced. No class/spec should be the best at everything, and this design is aligned with that sort of thinking.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Who you quoted was more correct, as everything depends on the content you're tackling, what specs we're talking about, and so forth. Such things can change from patch to patch based upon content changes and rebalancing, as well. I don't think you'll find anyone that would say Blizz always nails the balancing aspects perfectly, but that's not an argument for removing aspects which are in alignment with intended design goals... it should be the other way around.
    I mean I literally fail to see how you can make that argument when Rogues and Warriors, and even more recently Demon Hunters have significantly higher pick rates in high-end content and have done for quite a few expansions. And the reasons are obvious. More utility, more survivability, more defensives. Same damage output.

    The greatest measure of balance is the prevalence, and they prove they are not balanced. You cant balance broken. You cant tune broken. When a class outright dosent have survival/mobility abilities then you cant tune them, and they will never be picked.

    Lets make it even easier, look at Enhance, its a total meme spec and has been forever!! Why, because it outright dosent have defensives. There is no way that you can balance that and I fail to see how its blizzards intended design to want that? Its just poor development.

    Tell me what their intended design goal with DK is, that they do the same damage as everyone else but have worse survival/movement? Tell me what DK's are better at tackling, then tell me what rogues are better at tackling, you'll make a lot less points for DK. That is what imbalance is..

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    im not shifting anything you are crying because dks are slow and i explained the exact reason why it doesnt matter. You shifted the goal post to bring up a specific encounter and when i explained to you that you dont need any more mobility than you already have you came out of your ass with the fotm phrase on mmo-champ "shifting goal posts"

    BTW unholy is number 6 on that list out of all the dps specs in the game (big LOL at you basically proving yourself wrong there)
    And frost is within 10% of the closest 16 other dps classes in this game (again... keep cryin)
    Last edited by ZazuuPriest; 2020-11-15 at 01:59 AM.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    you came out of your ass with the fotm phrase on mmo-champ "shifting goal posts"
    This from the guy who a couple posts up used the phrase "cry more".

    Please refrain from using insulting language as your primary form of argument. If you have a point, make it in a civil manner. People will be more likely to see your point of view instead of dismissing you as just another random shit-stirrer.

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