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  1. #81
    I'm just going to come out and say it who thinks DK mobility is 'fine' and/or "always imagined dks as a slow unstoppable juggernaut" either doesn't play high-end PvE or started playing DK after legion, it's that simple.
    The fact is DK's are underrepresented at mythic level because their mobility is shit and they have very poor CC and utility (and on the whole middling damage and even when our damage is 'good' it's normally aoe/cleave damage not st). This is especially true for high mobility fights, it is simply the case that DK moblility is not 'good enough' in circumstances like that.

    The CC thing was the whole debacle with mass grip being too centralizing for encounter design (which is fair as far as dps goes) which we've never really been compensated for in any way, it's possible (and even likely) that the reintroduction AMZ will go aways to ameliorate this.

    As for mobility. Mobility is one of those 'invisible' stats people don't tend to think about at all until they don't have enough of it and on the other hand, once you have 'enough' it falls off the cliff of diminishing returns. As you can see in a fight like wrathion Dk's don't have 'enough'.

    MuH hUMuGiNeYeSaYsHuN
    Compare a rogue kit to a DK kit to see how sorry it really is.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    What.
    The.
    Fuck.
    Blizzard?

    How does anyone even enjoy playing such a slow class? I mean....holy crap guys. I genuinely feel bad for you, and have a lot of respect for anyone that stays with the class while dealing with literally the slowest class in the game. And with losing Azerite traits to increase speed, and
    The Maw not even allowing mounts? Tell me again why anyone would suffer that?

    Or am I missing something vital here?
    its why we love flying mount :P

    and why im engineer

    by the way there 2 speed boost

    and if the maw stay like this with no mount at all, you'll see a lot of classe crying about the fact that class like rogue will have fun in it

  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    Deathknights get deathgrip and a distinct lack of mobility.

    The point being: What do other classes give up that makes it even with DKs giving up mobility in this way? This is problem I'm trying to wrap my head around. There's this idea that's apparently stuck in people's minds that Dks MUST be slow. Why? What balance is that serving? That's why I listed other classes and their abilities. Because they don't appear to be giving up anything.
    Ask warriors how many defensive cooldowns and self healing they have compared to DKs. Stun immunity? I would love that on my druid. How many classes have a ranged stun? Grips are essentially a warriors charge that also interrupt. Anti-magic shell can negate the application of fear/poly. Many abilities worked from a farther range than most melee specs.

    It's harder to CC a DK. You can close gaps. You can use abilities out of melee range.

    If you want to lose stuff like that, then sure.. You can have the mobility.
    Last edited by Ragnarohk; 2020-11-14 at 10:55 PM.

  4. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by Ragnarohk View Post
    Ask warriors how many defensive cooldowns and self healing they have compared to DKs. Stun immunity? I would love that on my druid. How many classes have a ranged stun? Grips are essentially a warriors charge that also interrupt. Anti-magic shell can negate the application of fear/poly. Many abilities worked from a farther range than most melee specs.

    It's harder to CC a DK. You can close gaps. You can use abilities out of melee range.

    If you want to lose stuff like that, then sure.. You can have the mobility.
    Not only is there a talent to turn Victory rush into an on-demand heal every 30 seconds, but there's also Ignore Pain and Rallying Cry; both baseline. Prot warriors have a passive heal for rage expenditure. Fury warriors heal with every bloodthirst, and has enraged regeneration, as well as a PVP talent to reduce it's cooldown, and Battle Trance. Arms has Impending Victory and Second Wind. Oh....and Warriors have incredible mobility via charge, intervene, leap, pvp charge, and the ability to remove roots/snares with Avatar, immunity to fear/sap/incapacitate, and spell reflect for magic.

    Grip is NOT charge. That's a point that many have made in this thread. Yes, it serves as a gap closer on targets that can be gripped. But it is NOT mobility. A melee class, being able to use some abilities at range is not a replacement for being able to physically put yourself where you need to be more easily. Unless you're going to try to make the argument that DK's are 100% effective at range? Which would be deeply flawed.

    Take away the preconceived notion that DKs MUST be slow for thematic reasons, and you'll see that even with the strengths that DKs have, the overall balance is out of whack. Several veteran DK players have made this point. I'm just reinforcing it.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirCowdog View Post
    What.
    The.
    Fuck.
    Blizzard?

    How does anyone even enjoy playing such a slow class? I mean....holy crap guys. I genuinely feel bad for you, and have a lot of respect for anyone that stays with the class while dealing with literally the slowest class in the game. And with losing Azerite traits to increase speed, and
    The Maw not even allowing mounts? Tell me again why anyone would suffer that?

    Or am I missing something vital here?
    you can pull a single or large group of enemies to your location from a respectable range? cry more?

  6. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    you can pull a single or large group of enemies to your location from a respectable range? cry more?
    Can you grip wrathion in for me next pull? Thanks bud!
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Can you grip wrathion in for me next pull? Thanks bud!
    i mean... you have to move like two times in P1 and a little bit it P2 while you focus the adds and shards all the mechanics of this fight can be handled by like... a single hunter

    Gale Blast is basically negated by deaths advance
    The assassins are grippable
    Anti magic shell soaks most of incineration

    What are you crying about? having to move to one end of the zone 2 times?

  8. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    i mean... you have to move like two times in P1 and a little bit it P2 while you focus the adds and shards all the mechanics of this fight can be handled by like... a single hunter

    Gale Blast is basically negated by deaths advance
    The assassins are grippable
    Anti magic shell soaks most of incineration

    What are you crying about? having to move to one end of the zone 2 times?
    1. Shifting goal posts. Can you grip wrathion in for me or not?
    2. If wrathion isn't a high mobility fight and DK's don't suffer under these conditions want to explain this?
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    I kinda like that DK's are slow, it fits the theme of just being a walking juggernaut that plagues and breaks down everything near it. Think about the LK chase in Halls of Reflection.
    this. i kind of always imagined being like jason vorhees where when ur getting chased he's just walking towards you slow and menacingly but as you keep running and look back he's still the same distance behind you, still walking slowly and menacingly.

  10. #90
    DKs don't have to move fast because DKs don't have to move for anyone.

  11. #91
    Only time speed has been an issue on my DK was when I was fighting an Arcane mage with some janky ass bullshit speed build using chrono shift, could not keep up with em at all.

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    im not shifting anything you are crying because dks are slow and i explained the exact reason why it doesnt matter. You shifted the goal post to bring up a specific encounter and when i explained to you that you dont need any more mobility than you already have you came out of your ass with the fotm phrase on mmo-champ "shifting goal posts"

    BTW unholy is number 6 on that list out of all the dps specs in the game (big LOL at you basically proving yourself wrong there)
    And frost is within 10% of the closest 16 other dps classes in this game (again... keep cryin)
    Last edited by ZazuuPriest; 2020-11-15 at 01:59 AM.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    you came out of your ass with the fotm phrase on mmo-champ "shifting goal posts"
    This from the guy who a couple posts up used the phrase "cry more".

    Please refrain from using insulting language as your primary form of argument. If you have a point, make it in a civil manner. People will be more likely to see your point of view instead of dismissing you as just another random shit-stirrer.

  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    im not shifting anything you are crying because dks are slow and i explained the exact reason why it doesnt matter. You shifted the goal post to bring up a specific encounter and when i explained to you that you dont need any more mobility than you already have you came out of your ass with the fotm phrase on mmo-champ "shifting goal posts"
    You said you can pull enemies into your range, I pointed out you can't grip bosses. That's not moving the goalposts that's pointing out grip means fucking diddly on raid bosses.
    Btw just so we're clear, are you stating dks don't perform poorly on high mobility fights?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZazuuPriest View Post
    BTW unholy is number 6 on that list out of all the dps specs in the game (big LOL at you basically proving yourself wrong there)
    And frost is within 10% of the closest 16 other dps classes in this game (again... keep cryin)
    You didn't look at the wrathion fight? You know that fight we're discussing, because it's literally the first high mobility fight in the current tier of raid content? Also, did you look at the prepatch data? Do you not know how to use warcraftlogs?
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  15. #95
    This is an old argument which always breaks down to two different perspectives clashing: PvE vs PvP.

    For PvP, yes we have Grip and Chains which both "help". But you spend a lot of time and resources just to make up for the movement deficiency.

    For PvE, we can talent into Wraith Walk. That plus Death's Advance generally get the job done. But we still feel "slow" compared to the old days.


    I miss Unholy Presence. Before Legion we had an extra 35% movement speed between that and the passive effect from Death's Advance. Having this consistent amount was super useful in all aspects of gameplay. DK hasn't really felt the same since our utility purge which most other classes somehow dodged. Those classes remain more effective to this day. If you highly value mobility, then Warrior is the class for you. Everything DK can do, they can do better. Hell, the Warrior class is getting a Legendary in Shadowlands that grants Heroic Leap 3 charges. DKs will never have that kind of utility or versatility.

  16. #96
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    don't worry i'm sure by next expac we'll be back to 100% of every class feeling exactly like every other class. We're only 90% of the way there right now.


    DK's have just about everything you could want and a battle rez. So you want them to just be better survival hunters?

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    I'm just going to come out and say it who thinks DK mobility is 'fine' and/or "always imagined dks as a slow unstoppable juggernaut" either doesn't play high-end PvE or started playing DK after legion, it's that simple.
    The fact is DK's are underrepresented at mythic level because their mobility is shit and they have very poor CC and utility (and on the whole middling damage and even when our damage is 'good' it's normally aoe/cleave damage not st). This is especially true for high mobility fights, it is simply the case that DK moblility is not 'good enough' in circumstances like that.

    The CC thing was the whole debacle with mass grip being too centralizing for encounter design (which is fair as far as dps goes) which we've never really been compensated for in any way, it's possible (and even likely) that the reintroduction AMZ will go aways to ameliorate this.

    As for mobility. Mobility is one of those 'invisible' stats people don't tend to think about at all until they don't have enough of it and on the other hand, once you have 'enough' it falls off the cliff of diminishing returns. As you can see in a fight like wrathion Dk's don't have 'enough'.

    MuH hUMuGiNeYeSaYsHuN
    Compare a rogue kit to a DK kit to see how sorry it really is.
    You really used fucking Wrathion as a baseline? That fight on Mythic, at the 90th percentile especially, is about burst because he croaks so fast, and somewhat burst AoE, not mobility at all. In your same sample, overall logs put Frost as middle of the pack including on other high mobility fights. Taking current logs, Unholy is decent on Wrathion (second best melee actually) while the top spec is the absolute turret that is Arcane, with the same Unholy being one of the good specs currently. It performs quite well on high-mobility fights like Vexiona and Carapace as well (top melee spec there even). Your proof is extremely flawed. Pick rates are based on performance and, often, utility more than anything else, barring outlier specs like BM which are always picked due to being stupid ez to play. Mobility is a factor, but not anywhere near as all-important as you claim.

    Rogues are the golden child and every other melee's toolkit is dogshit compared to theirs. They barely should be a point of comparison at all.
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  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Beastiel View Post
    don't worry i'm sure by next expac we'll be back to 100% of every class feeling exactly like every other class. We're only 90% of the way there right now.


    DK's have just about everything you could want and a battle rez. So you want them to just be better survival hunters?
    I believe that Flanking Strike should replace Kill Command for Survival. It's thematically fitting. Plus it's hard for Survival to compete with BM and MM. It needs more mobility to be a viable option.

  19. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by JavelinJoe View Post
    Except we dont which is what ive been posting about for years, half the enemies in the game cant even be gripped. Charges and other similar abilities work 100% of the time.

    Im not saying we should be fast comparitively with other classes but we are slow to the point where its not fun imo, and im saying that as someone who has mained DK since it launched and will continue to do so. I love everything about the class but the mobility seriously pisses me off.
    I disagree, but then again I haven't had it as main for so long. It's better nowadays than before, so I might not have played it so much in the earlier days that it annoyed me

    Quote Originally Posted by exochaft View Post
    That's the entire design mentality behind the class, pretty sure it was even addressed in a blue post years ago. The reason DK's aren't very mobile is a trade-off of being to snare in ST/AoE scenarios as well as being able to grip. If DK's had that toolkit plus were extremely mobile, that wouldn't be very balanced. No class/spec should be the best at everything, and this design is aligned with that sort of thinking.
    I really like the class fantasy of DKs being a slow, but unstoppable force. Like the LK fight in HoO in Icecrown, he was super slow(even though its funny that a DK that masters frosts gets stunned or slowed by frost magic), it's one of many things that makes DKs cool imo.

    Grip is also one of the cool(d)est utility abilities in game imo, I hear people say you can't grip many mobs, while the truth is that you actually can grip most mobs. Raid bosses are hard to grip, sure, except Hogger, but if we want some run speed in a fight as DK we can spec into it so we have two options. I like Death Grip so much I am choosing Necrolord on my Frost DK so I can grip even more mobs with the Covenant ability even though it's the worst Covenant. Such a cool ability.
    Last edited by Doffen; 2020-11-15 at 04:22 AM.

  20. #100
    Havent seen anyone else mention this, but they did get a new runeforge that increases movespeed, plus more move speed and hp on kill. yes it requires you to swap out RotFC weapon when pve out in the world or w/e, but it shouldnt be too hard to get a 2ndary weapon for that. we already have to do it for our tank/dps set.

    It's not too bad.

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