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  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    There isn't a community of humans not tinted by self interest, nor is their a scientific method that answers basic political questions, that is the realm of deliberation, debate and peoples interests.
    And you can't have a meaningful debate if people are rejecting evidence that has been peer reviewed by scientists. How can you have a debate on the political questions about how to address climate change for example, when there are still people who reject the evidence of humans having an impact or that climate change is even happening?

    Sure, all humans have self-interest but the scientific method is a self-correcting process to gain information about the world around us. It doesn't matter what political views a scientist has, all that matters is if their claims are testable, verifiable and repeatable.

  2. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by szechuan View Post
    Another reason why the years ahead of America will be horrible.
    5-4, When America fails to separate church and state.


    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...es/3767379001/
    No.
    As I posted in the relevant thread;

    Justice Neil Gorsuch wrote of his ruling that it seemed contradictory to say it was unsafe to go to church but not to shop for a new bike.

    "So, at least according to the Governor, it may be unsafe to go to church, but it is always fine to pick up another bottle of wine, shop for a new bike," Gorsuch wrote

    ----
    If the governor wants restrictions then he needs to apply them equally.

  3. #223
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    You really smack to me of the way that guy acted. Someone with no training or formal understanding who will argue with experts and call into question their findings not from some place of education or legitimate contention, but simply because you misunderstand the point completely.
    No, you misrepresent but that is typical for MMO-C.

    I'm the person at the Climate Change panel pointing out that plans like the Carbon Tax and Taxes on food are just putting the burden of stopping Climate Change on the poor and asking why the solutions proposed by said anointed experts seem to fall into "It is on individuals to do things".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Howel View Post
    I never made the claim that the ACA was a moderate position. That's a conversation you've dragged from a different poster.

    But the point still stands, since moderate, is not a position from the entire spectrum, if the entire spectrum is not represented. It is why we call, people from backassward countries, who want to treat women with an inkling of respect, moderate.
    You are the one initially stating I need to be working with these "moderates" as you term it, because you are viewing things as a spectrum.
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  4. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    No, you misrepresent but that is typical for MMO-C.

    I'm the person at the Climate Change panel pointing out that plans like the Carbon Tax and Taxes on food are just putting the burden of stopping Climate Change on the poor and asking why the solutions proposed by said anointed experts seem to fall into "It is on individuals to do things".
    Those were largely pushed as solutions by economists.

  5. #225
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    And you can't have a meaningful debate if people are rejecting evidence that has been peer reviewed by scientists. How can you have a debate on the political questions about how to address climate change for example, when there are still people who reject the evidence of humans having an impact or that climate change is even happening?

    Sure, all humans have self-interest but the scientific method is a self-correcting process to gain information about the world around us. It doesn't matter what political views a scientist has, all that matters is if their claims are testable, verifiable and repeatable.
    People, In my experience, reject evidence because people such as Liberals tend to recite evidence as a short cut to policy. "Trust the Experts" is some incantation to avoid the political questions. Thus people reject the evidence because why would they trust the experts have THEIR interests at heart? I've had a lot of very good conversations on Climate Change and the running thread isn't a denial of mankind terraforming our own atmosphere, but more a complete lack of trust that the policy prescriptions will be anything good for their lives. And on that, they are generally correct in that assessment. The Rightoid answer to the Liberals trying to depoliticize the topic via "Trust the Experts!" is to simply themselves sidestep by stating its all a hoax. Both are acts of de-politicization.

    The Scientific Method doesn't answer policy questions. A scientist can tell me how much of a chemical is in the sky or if a rock is made of silicon or iron, they aren't going to have a scientific, or objectively true, policy prescription. Because that is what you are angling for with this "Trust the experts" schtick. A way to describe a policy platform as having "No alternative" because its just simply a perfect and only valid answer by appealing to some non-political authority. But that is as I've said merely de-politicization.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    Those were largely pushed as solutions by economists.
    Well there you have it, you at last are admitting that "Expert" comes in many stripes and colors.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
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  6. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    People, In my experience, reject evidence because people such as Liberals tend to recite evidence as a short cut to policy. "Trust the Experts" is some incantation to avoid the political questions. Thus people reject the evidence because why would they trust the experts have THEIR interests at heart? I've had a lot of very good conversations on Climate Change and the running thread isn't a denial of mankind terraforming our own atmosphere, but more a complete lack of trust that the policy prescriptions will be anything good for their lives. And on that, they are generally correct in that assessment. The Rightoid answer to the Liberals trying to depoliticize the topic via "Trust the Experts!" is to simply themselves sidestep by stating its all a hoax. Both are acts of de-politicization.
    That may be your experience but it's certainly not mine. I've debated with a lot of people about climate change over the years and the main argument was that it wasn't happening. Only recently has it turned into 'it's happening but it's not our fault'. Now some are saying, 'ok it's our fault but there's no alternative'.

    We do need to find solutions that work for everyone and it doesn't just fall on individuals to make change. I'm really lost at what you are trying to argue here.

  7. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    You are the one initially stating I need to be working with these "moderates" as you term it, because you are viewing things as a spectrum.
    Yeah, that's how that works when one wants to expand the political spectrum, you try and pull at those closest, in this case moderates. Unless you think that calling everyone on here, fake leftists, will land you conservative votes for universal healthcare. Because that would be a bold strategy, cotton!

    Or revolution, but that doesn't have a particularly great track record.
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  8. #228
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    That may be your experience but it's certainly not mine. I've debated with a lot of people about climate change over the years and the main argument was that it wasn't happening. Only recently has it turned into 'it's happening but it's not our fault'. Now some are saying, 'ok it's our fault but there's no alternative'.

    We do need to find solutions that work for everyone and it doesn't just fall on individuals to make change. I'm really lost at what you are trying to argue here.
    That could be a number of reasons, you might be coming at them as merely another evangelist for the DNC, here to correct the unruly savages whom haven't yet adopted the 'Good Team'. I've never myself seen an out an out Liberal manage to have these discussions, generally I come at those discussions with the idea and position that the person I'm talking to has their reasons and that they are valid and I'm mostly just hearing them out without then subjecting them to a hectoring by me. But you know, I'm not a Liberal, I'm not trying to win converts to to a consumer product/political party.

    The 'Our Fault' should elicit from you a "Yes, correct it isn't YOUR fault" because it just plain isn't that persons fault. What they reject is the Neo-Liberal framing of this as an individual failing and a case of personal responsibility, and them having to "act better/be better" or some other ridiculous shibboleth. Their concern is that they will be immiserated, or to quote some of them "Living alone, in a pod, eating bugs as a wage slave". Perhaps my success is owed to me not trying to convince them its their fault or their responsibility to solve it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    Tankie Paleo-Conservatism with TERF characteristics / Socialism with My Chemical Romance characteristics. Caramelldansen Nationalism. Aimee Terese was right about Warren. Anti-HR Aktion. When that Polka hits!. Ceterum et dare nobis duo milia dollariorum!

  9. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    That could be a number of reasons, you might be coming at them as merely another evangelist for the DNC, here to correct the unruly savages whom haven't yet adopted the 'Good Team'. I've never myself seen an out an out Liberal manage to have these discussions, generally I come at those discussions with the idea and position that the person I'm talking to has their reasons and that they are valid and I'm mostly just hearing them out without then subjecting them to a hectoring by me. But you know, I'm not a Liberal, I'm not trying to win converts to to a consumer product/political party.
    See, I think this is the problem. Climate change isn't a consumer product or political party.

  10. #230
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    See, I think this is the problem. Climate change isn't a consumer product or political party.
    What we do about it is however a political question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
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  11. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    What we do about it is however a political question.
    And, just like with the pandemic, the GOP is not providing any alternative solutions. They basically ignore it and hope it will go away.

  12. #232
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowferal View Post
    No.
    As I posted in the relevant thread;

    Justice Neil Gorsuch wrote of his ruling that it seemed contradictory to say it was unsafe to go to church but not to shop for a new bike.

    "So, at least according to the Governor, it may be unsafe to go to church, but it is always fine to pick up another bottle of wine, shop for a new bike," Gorsuch wrote

    ----
    If the governor wants restrictions then he needs to apply them equally.
    The common person, the "essential worker" cannot gather with friends or have a beer after fetching food and rides for their masters, cannot have a funeral or a wedding or any sort of human social connection, but you can consume product.



    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    And, just like with the pandemic, the GOP is not providing any alternative solutions. They basically ignore it and hope it will go away.
    Back to the evangelist game I see. Well, I can see why your Climate Change discussions go poorly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    Tankie Paleo-Conservatism with TERF characteristics / Socialism with My Chemical Romance characteristics. Caramelldansen Nationalism. Aimee Terese was right about Warren. Anti-HR Aktion. When that Polka hits!. Ceterum et dare nobis duo milia dollariorum!

  13. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Back to the evangelist game I see. Well, I can see why your Climate Change discussions go poorly.
    So please, correct me if I am wrong. What has the GOP done to combat climate change or the pandemic? And it's not evangelizing, it's simply the fact that only one political party has made any attempts at addressing this. If what you said was true, that the GOP simply disagrees with the policies why haven't they come up with any alternative solution or policies?

  14. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    So please, correct me if I am wrong. What has the GOP done to combat climate change or the pandemic? And it's not evangelizing, it's simply the fact that only one political party has made any attempts at addressing this. If what you said was true, that the GOP simply disagrees with the policies why haven't they come up with any alternative solution or policies?
    To be entirely fair, they have done travel bans to the places that were hit. And they were part of, I think two stimulus packets.
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  15. #235
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    So please, correct me if I am wrong. What has the GOP done to combat climate change or the pandemic?
    Dude, it's not going to work, I'm not going to stan Nancy Pelosi.

    See, this is probably where you fuck up. In the end you are less into the Climate Change problem and more into the DNC, basically trying to sell people on a consumer product. You need to focus on what it is you want people to believe? Is it in Climate Change or the Democratic Party? Because Climate Change is easier to sell than an entire political party.

    This is what I am talking about; probably where you struggle is that people can smell a rat, and you are gunning hard to sell people a consumer product, not have a discussion about Climate Change. Nobody likes the greasy shyster car salesman trying to work them over, and you already display that salesman pitch right away. People have a variety of complex reasons for why they might identify with a political project or not, and you are essentially bundling "Do you believe in Climate Change" with "Do you like X, Y, or Z politician". This is essentially "Well if you believe Climate Change is real than you must love Rahm Emmanuel, that is just Science and Expert respecting!". Basically, maybe try talking to people rather than trying to convert them. People can tell the difference between a discussion and someone giving a sermon or hawking a sales pitch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    Tankie Paleo-Conservatism with TERF characteristics / Socialism with My Chemical Romance characteristics. Caramelldansen Nationalism. Aimee Terese was right about Warren. Anti-HR Aktion. When that Polka hits!. Ceterum et dare nobis duo milia dollariorum!

  16. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Dude, it's not going to work, I'm not going to stan Nancy Pelosi.

    See, this is probably where you fuck up. In the end you are less into the Climate Change problem and more into the DNC, basically trying to sell people on a consumer product. You need to focus on what it is you want people to believe? Is it in Climate Change or the Democratic Party? Because Climate Change is easier to sell than an entire political party.

    This is what I am talking about; probably where you struggle is that people can smell a rat, and you are gunning hard to sell people a consumer product, not have a discussion about Climate Change. Nobody likes the greasy shyster car salesman trying to work them over, and you already display that salesman pitch right away. People have a variety of complex reasons for why they might identify with a political project or not, and you are essentially bundling "Do you believe in Climate Change" with "Do you like X, Y, or Z politician". This is essentially "Well if you believe Climate Change is real than you must love Rahm Emmanuel, that is just Science and Expert respecting!". Basically, maybe try talking to people rather than trying to convert them. People can tell the difference between a discussion and someone giving a sermon or hawking a sales pitch.
    Again, you brought up the fact that liberals are saying 'listen to the experts' and the right reject those policies and call it a hoax. If this is simply a political question of how to combat climate change, why is only one political party trying to address it? If the right doesn't like the policies, why not come up with their own policies? I'm not trying to say Democrats or Pelosi is right or better than the GOP. I'm simply saying the GOP is not even trying.

  17. #237
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    Again, you brought up the fact that liberals are saying 'listen to the experts' and the right reject those policies and call it a hoax. If this is simply a political question of how to combat climate change, why is only one political party trying to address it? If the right doesn't like the policies, why not come up with their own policies? I'm not trying to say Democrats or Pelosi is right or better than the GOP. I'm simply saying the GOP is not even trying.
    And I've explained why I chastise that as a rhetorical approach. And explained what the people denying it completely are also doing. The problem is "Trust the experts" isn't a policy, it is a surrender over policy, it is a short cut to avoid politics. Something you seem clearly categorically unable to reckon with as a problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    Tankie Paleo-Conservatism with TERF characteristics / Socialism with My Chemical Romance characteristics. Caramelldansen Nationalism. Aimee Terese was right about Warren. Anti-HR Aktion. When that Polka hits!. Ceterum et dare nobis duo milia dollariorum!

  18. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    And I've explained why I chastise that as a rhetorical approach. And explained what the people denying it completely are also doing. The problem is "Trust the experts" isn't a policy, it is a surrender over policy, it is a short cut to avoid politics. Something you seem clearly categorically unable to reckon with as a problem.
    No, I see it as a basis for making policy. We listen to the experts, who conclude that climate change is being caused by human actions and then society collectively develops policies to combat that. I don't think anyone has said, let's get a random climate scientist to draft up an economic or government policy to fix everything.

    And here's an example of past climate debates.

  19. #239
    The Unstoppable Force Theodarzna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wunksta View Post
    No, I see it as a basis for making policy. We listen to the experts, who conclude that climate change is being caused by human actions and then society collectively develops policies to combat that. I don't think anyone has said, let's get a random climate scientist to draft up an economic or government policy to fix everything.

    And here's an example of past climate debates.
    Yeah, "Rational Skepticism" forum, ah the good old pre-2006 era internet. I miss Myspace forums, them's were the days!

    The problem is, "listen to experts" is not even explicitly defined, it is a piece of rhetoric that lets you fill in the blanks. Kind of like claims that the ACA is a stepping stone to Universal health care, its never actually described as such but people believe it. Policy is being crafted, by the powerful, since they will be able to actually enact policy. Whatever experts say about the terraforming of our own planet by industrial processes is basically irrelevant to the ACTUAL debate which is the question of power and who has a voice over that policy prescription that will get adopted.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crissi View Post
    i think I have my posse filled out now. Mars is Theo, Jupiter is Vanyali, Linadra is Venus, and Heather is Mercury. Dragon can be Pluto.
    Tankie Paleo-Conservatism with TERF characteristics / Socialism with My Chemical Romance characteristics. Caramelldansen Nationalism. Aimee Terese was right about Warren. Anti-HR Aktion. When that Polka hits!. Ceterum et dare nobis duo milia dollariorum!

  20. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by Theodarzna View Post
    Yeah, "Rational Skepticism" forum, ah the good old pre-2006 era internet. I miss Myspace forums, them's were the days!

    The problem is, "listen to experts" is not even explicitly defined, it is a piece of rhetoric that lets you fill in the blanks. Kind of like claims that the ACA is a stepping stone to Universal health care, its never actually described as such but people believe it. Policy is being crafted, by the powerful, since they will be able to actually enact policy. Whatever experts say about the terraforming of our own planet by industrial processes is basically irrelevant to the ACTUAL debate which is the question of power and who has a voice over that policy prescription that will get adopted.
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