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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    rupture and s&d are the fucking same thing
    Rupture deals damage to your target when you are not in melee range of it. S&D does not cause you to do damage to your target when you are not in melee range of it.

    Rupture deals bleed damage which is not reduced by armor. White attacks buffed by S&D are physical damage and are reduced by armor.

    The entire duration of Rupture can only be applied to one target. During S&D you can freely switch targets and damage different ones.

    They don't resemble one another in any meaningful way.

  2. #102
    SnD is a bad ability that's really not fun compared to the other things we've got before(for example Kingsbane, Exanguinate).

    But don't care that much, still gonna be playing a rogue. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    Too many people also only view the game / their class, through the narrow lense of "these are the buttons I press when doing damage races in PvE". That's a trashcan mentality for trashcan players and the game is worse today than it was several years ago because of them.
    Calling PvE players - trashcan players? How low have you fallen...
    Last edited by Eazy; 2020-11-16 at 07:47 AM.

  3. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    LOL I would 100% play retail WoW again in a heartbeat if they reverted the Rogue class to pre-Legion design. God, what an incredible thing that would be! That's the dream, right there.
    No you wouldn't because all the things you say you dislike about the Rogue and class design has also changed in the game in general. Arena is completely different from what it was when you played the game.

    Again, I find it completely ridiculous that you keep arguing about a game that you don't even play. You have no idea how it works anymore and you keep arguing with us based on outdated logic.

    SnD made sense in Vanilla. The energy regeneration and combo point generation were much lower back then. In Vanilla the wrong use of finishers could result in death while leveling. But that's not how it is anymore. The game has changed. We generate so many resources that SnD just doesn't make sense anymore. I feel crazy that I have to argue about this with someone who doesn't even play the game and haven't played the game for the last almost 5 years. You're outdated mate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    SnD is a bad ability that's really not fun compared to the other things we've got before(for example Kingsbane, Exanguinate).

    But don't care that much, still gonna be playing a rogue. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



    Calling PvE players - trashcan players? How low have you fallen...
    Mate, Shoegazing is not even playing the game and has not been playing it for the last 4-5 years. He has no idea what he is talking about. By the logic of his own signature, his opinion is not equal to ours because it is not well supported by logic since he doesn't even play the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Honestly dude just let it go. His argument boils down to 1000 different ways to say "aulde gud nu bad" and "but muh pvp edge case", if he wants to spam SS in classic and daydream about WoD sub let him go. The only people who get hurt are the ones who get drawn into Homeric poem length forum debates about either topic.
    Mate, Shoegazing is not even playing the game and has not been playing it for the last 4-5 years. He has no idea what he is talking about. By the logic of his own signature, his opinion is not equal to ours because it is not well supported by logic since he doesn't even play the game.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Saltysquidoon View Post
    Honestly dude just let it go. His argument boils down to 1000 different ways to say "aulde gud nu bad" and "but muh pvp edge case", if he wants to spam SS in classic and daydream about WoD sub let him go. The only people who get hurt are the ones who get drawn into Homeric poem length forum debates about either topic.
    Welp

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    Mate, Shoegazing is not even playing the game and has not been playing it for the last 4-5 years. He has no idea what he is talking about. By the logic of his own signature, his opinion is not equal to ours because it is not well supported by logic since he doesn't even play the game.
    Didn't know that... that explains a lot.

    I have no idea why someone without any experience about the game right now, who isn't even playing it, would take a part in a discussion about it. That's just stupid and senseless.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Volatilis View Post
    Instead of being all edgelord to Pve'ers.

    Why dont you actually play a game where PVP is taken seriously and is designed that way. Not just a feature within an MMO

    WoW pvp is so minor now they struggle to get more views than some random scrub playing among us, than pikaboo at a tournament.
    Mate, Shoegazing is not even playing the game and has not been playing it for the last 4-5 years. He has no idea what he is talking about. By the logic of his own signature, his opinion is not equal to ours because it is not well supported by logic since he doesn't even play the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by omeomorfismo View Post
    i made some spreadsheets back in legion (not too much to be fair, only assa APL optimization), and yes i only see PVE, so?
    to pve assa s&d doesnt do anything that rupture do. put it as a pvp talent if they still exist. to pve, it adds nothing, in a way even worse than dispatch/ambush (wooo so much skilz to write an aura+shiftmacro on mut)

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    oh yes sorry, then s&d is a strictly worse rupture. but my argument remain the same
    Mate, Shoegazing is not even playing the game and has not been playing it for the last 4-5 years. He has no idea what he is talking about. By the logic of his own signature, his opinion is not equal to ours because it is not well supported by logic since he doesn't even play the game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    Didn't know that... that explains a lot.

    I have no idea why someone without any experience about the game right now, who isn't even playing it, would take a part in a discussion about it. That's just stupid and senseless.
    Exactly. And it's also a bit sad. Why spend your life arguing about a game you don't even play... I just don't understand it. It's very obvious that he spends many many hours on this forum spreading misinformation based on his outdated knowledge. He for some reason thinks that the game still works like it did in vanilla. Or at least he pretend that. To be honest, I start to think he is just trolling. Because his arguments are so obviously misplaced when it comes to retail. The whole situation regarding Shoegazing is just sad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    YUP, these people saying it doesn't do anything or "you can't feel it" are utterly delusional. Like how did they not notice how slow our autos are without it? The loss of energetic recovery also. It just feels terrible to play without it, and so satisfying to put it up and hear those faster autos.

    YUP!!! Preach it. This is exactly the point. One of many, at least.

    It's really a great disappointment how little appreciation many Rogue players have for their class these days. Imagine playing this class, that has so much awesome history to it, that was so well regarded for so many years, and just approaching it as a dps rotation simulator / spreadsheet. Such a disappointment.
    You don't even play the game. You have no idea how classes feels like in retail and how they interact with content. The game has changed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    I could say the same to you all but here you are with YET ANOTHER thread about SnD, which is simultaneously "trivial" and also the greatest affront to game design in the history of WoW. Heh heh heh....
    SnD is trivial in terms of meaningful choice. But it's still annoying because it takes up a GCD and it has no meaningful synergy with the mechanics of the specs.

    You don't even play the game. It just seems like you're here to troll people. With your "Heh heh heh...". It's just sad that you're trying to annoy other people for no good reason. At least play the game if you want to make so much noise about it.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    people yell "you pruned all the abilities, you made the game braindead"

    they add stuff back "thats not the stuff we want back. pressing the button is braindead"

    /shrug. i wouldnt listen to players either if i were blizz.
    Well, its the typical situation and one of the reasons everybody hates Blizzard. They just slap random sh*t on us and wait to see what sticks. Its like they listened to the worst forum suggestions of them all and ignore or even intentionally avoid all the reasonable arguments.
    They pruned the good stuff, changed the game and returned things that are obsolete at this point, just boring, useless, bringing only annoyances and bad balance instead of actually improvements. Generally from what I tested, the unprunning is mostly just maintaining or bad rng clunky trash making the gameplay worse. Seeing the balance, changes, time gating and Torghas I say it now, Shadowlands will become one of the contenders for the worst wow expansion ever and the last nail to the nostalgy coffer for many ppl.

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Ladey Gags View Post
    Idk what’s with the hate for SND. I love popping it and seeing my auto attacks go super fast. I don’t understand the argument that it’s a passive that does nothing. It has visual AND audio feedback with both the execution of the skill and seeing your auto attacks in super Saiyan mode and hearing them hit every 0.00005 seconds. It feels freaking awesome and extremely ROGUEY to me.
    All of this can be turned into a passive that still has a good visual but without screwing combo point or a gcd, it would be a win-win situation.

  8. #108
    Dunno, when I played rogue SnD is just like any other ability for me, especially the bleeds. Keep it up and manage it along with all other timers you have to maximise dps. It's no different maintaining it compared to rupture or garrote. Don't really get why SnD is boring and bleeds aren't since you use them roughly the same.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Dunno, when I played rogue SnD is just like any other ability for me, especially the bleeds. Keep it up and manage it along with all other timers you have to maximise dps. It's no different maintaining it compared to rupture or garrote. Don't really get why SnD is boring and bleeds aren't since you use them roughly the same.
    I don't know when you played rogue or what spec you're talking about but if you're talking about pre legion sub, you had a passive called sinister calling that sped up your rupture ticks so part of the game was trying to consume your bleeds as quickly as possible.
    If you're talking about post legion muti (which I suspect based on the reference to garrote). Rupture should feel similar to snd because it was designed to replace snd for muti, with the added interactivity bonuses of scaling into aoe as more rupture ticks means more energy which means you get faster, additionally, you have a talent which speeds up bleed tics (and gives you a new ability) in exsanguinate (sadly it was rarely viable).
    If you're talking about pre-legion Muti, well you never had to maintain SnD in the first place.

    Comparative SnD has always and ever been a non-interactive maintenance buff you keep up 100% of the time. Read in a light most favorable to the skill it passively increases the efficiency of passives that apply on auto-attack.
    It's not bad, it increases dps which is why your press it when your WA lights up, it's not hard because all you do is press it when your weak aura lights up. It's just boring because it doesn't interact with the rest of your kit. Which is 100% on blizzard for just lazily splashing it into specs it wasn't designed to work with, I personally wouldn't have given a shit if they had sewn it back into the kit rather than duct-taping it to the roof.

    My personal problem is a button you press because it is a button that exists to be pressed is a bad button and there is always room to make it a better button.
    Last edited by Saltysquidoon; 2020-11-16 at 11:20 AM.
    Tonight for me is a special day. I want to go outside of the house of the girl I like with a gasoline barrel and write her name on the road and set it on fire and tell her to get out too see it (is this illegal)?

  10. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Dunno, when I played rogue SnD is just like any other ability for me, especially the bleeds. Keep it up and manage it along with all other timers you have to maximise dps. It's no different maintaining it compared to rupture or garrote. Don't really get why SnD is boring and bleeds aren't since you use them roughly the same.
    1) Bleed interacts with AOE. They generate more energy the more targets are affected. Bleeds makes the class more viable during downtime.

    2) When SnD was relevant it was mainly because of slow energy regeneration and combo point generation. Today the gameplay is much faster and this makes SnD misplaced. What they practically have done with SnD today is saying "okay we take away 20 % baseline damage and add it back as a maintenance buff". Because SnD has no notable synergy with the rest of the class like bleeds do. In the past SnD presented a meaningful choice but it doesn't today because it's extremely easy to keep it at a 100 % uptime and the consequences of wasting combo points is much less critical than it was in the past. If they want to make a buff like this, then at least make it like Hunters Barbed Shot or Frost DKs Icy Talons which actually require a little bit of management to optimize uptime. SnD requires absolutely no management other than a weakaura.

    3) One maintenance ability doesn't warrant another. Saying "oh well you already have rupture and garrote so why not add another" is not a good argument. Otherwise it can be an endless loop... "oh well you already have rupture, garrote and SnD so why not add a fourth maintenance ability...."
    Last edited by Kaver; 2020-11-16 at 11:49 AM.

  11. #111
    SnD gives the rogue breathing room for other stuff instead of being balanced around having each 5cp finisher used for direct damage or bleed on target.

    You can refresh between fights or out of range. You can time the refresh around the fights to put the other finishers on the important bits of the fight.

    Can i keep it up.. should i go for 4 seconds without SnD because we want to finish the mob that 1 second faster? Those decisions should make the game more fun for many players. If you want to mash 4 buttons as soon as they are off cooldown go for Diablo3 specs.

    It is interactive because you can plan when to reapply SnD. It is not necessary to press every 40 seconds like a cooldown... you have a good window, a bad window and an inbetween window where you just don't have anything else to do...
    Last edited by Hyrican; 2020-11-16 at 12:21 PM.

  12. #112
    the only change snd needs is the animation

  13. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by niztheundead87 View Post
    the only change snd needs is the animation
    The animation is actually the best thing in SnD.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    I feel crazy that I have to argue about this with someone who doesn't even play the game and haven't played the game for the last almost 5 years. You're outdated mate.
    What are you even talking about? Where do you get this "5 years" figure just because I don't currently play BFA in this current patch?

    I played Legion extensively (wish I didn't though). I played BFA a little bit. I played Shadowlands beta.

    You're a liar and a hateful troll.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    Didn't know that... that explains a lot.

    I have no idea why someone without any experience about the game right now, who isn't even playing it, would take a part in a discussion about it. That's just stupid and senseless.
    He's blatantly lying about me. How on Earth could he possibly claim to know that I haven't played retail "for 5 years" ?

    It's total bullshit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    No you wouldn't because all the things you say you dislike about the Rogue and class design has also changed in the game in general. Arena is completely different from what it was when you played the game.

    Again, I find it completely ridiculous that you keep arguing about a game that you don't even play. You have no idea how it works anymore and you keep arguing with us based on outdated logic.
    You are completely full of shit. Arena is NOT completely different from what it was when I last played the game. I have played every single expansion in this game's history. I have played a little bit of BFA arena. So how is BFA arena completely different from BFA arena?

    I would obviously play a lot more retail if Rogue design was changed. It's the entire reason I'm here arguing for changes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eazy View Post
    Calling PvE players - trashcan players? How low have you fallen...
    Learn how to read. I didn't call PvE players traschan players. I PLAY PVE MYSELF. I called players who ONLY view class design in terms of "what is my damage rotation in PvE" trashcan players... which they are! That is a completely limited and ignorant view of the game and feedback from that perspective actively harms other players.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

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  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by Kumorii View Post
    Dunno, when I played rogue SnD is just like any other ability for me, especially the bleeds. Keep it up and manage it along with all other timers you have to maximise dps. It's no different maintaining it compared to rupture or garrote. Don't really get why SnD is boring and bleeds aren't since you use them roughly the same.
    The effect itself is good, but the ability is just boring, press a button to get attack speed, really ?

  16. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaver View Post
    SnD made sense in Vanilla. The energy regeneration and combo point generation were much lower back then. In Vanilla the wrong use of finishers could result in death while leveling. But that's not how it is anymore. The game has changed. We generate so many resources that SnD just doesn't make sense anymore. I feel crazy that I have to argue about this with someone who doesn't even play the game and haven't played the game for the last almost 5 years. You're outdated mate.
    That right there is the problem. The game has changed, for the worse by quite a whole lot.

    Yes we generate so many resources that SnD isn't as effective, that's a sign of bad class design, not an issue with SnD. This is your problem, you think because of how the game is now warrants making SnD useless, but the game right now is not in a good and fun state, especially not Rogues. Hurr durr SnD doesn't do enough, rupture soooo interesting. Funny, all of those nuanced interactions with other abilities is exactly what has been dumbed down over the years. So your solution is to dumb it down even further, just get rid of SnD instead of fixing the class to begin with? How about we just have one big button that says DPS and you spam that over and over again?

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schmilblick View Post
    The effect itself is good, but the ability is just boring, press a button to get attack speed, really ?
    Given that attack speed does so much I wouldn’t say it’s boring to get a ton more. That’s more energy/combo points, procs, poison applications, stacking trinket/azerite procs, it does a lot for you.

  18. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    Arguing that "SnD and rupture are the same because I only play a tiny little part of the game and my spreadsheet says the damage they deal is similar even though the way they deal damage is of course entirely different" is pretty hilarious. Thanks for the good laugh.
    kek, imagine being so delusioned to think wow pve "a tiny little part"
    thanks for the not so good laugh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nubpwn View Post
    How about we just have one big button that says DPS and you spam that over and over again?
    it seems vanilla, the exact place where s&d belong

  19. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Schmilblick View Post
    The effect itself is good, but the ability is just boring, press a button to get attack speed, really ?
    Almost everything is press button and you get something. I don't mind it, it's another buff/debuff to track like many other abilities. Either you enjoy having more things to juggle or you find it doesn't provide anything and you have enough things to track already. Different opinions and all that, I just don't get the "boring" part compared to other abilities that seem fine.

  20. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Hyrican View Post
    It is interactive because you can plan when to reapply SnD. It is not necessary to press every 40 seconds like a cooldown... you have a good window, a bad window and an inbetween window where you just don't have anything else to do...
    thats what envenom buff do, even in a way thats better than "another rupture bar but worse"

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