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  1. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Warning View Post
    Playing sub without premed feels a lot worse. Just not fun spending combo points on two different maintenance buffs/debuffs.
    And this sums the swarms of Subtlety mouthbreathers currently plaguing the game.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxina View Post
    That's the main thing Blizzard does wrong - listen to those who cries the most. What happened? All classes got pruned, and people cried. Now they added back abilities, and people cry again.
    Blizzard will never win, simply because they try to please the ones who cries the most. And there will always be someone who cries loud enough.
    It was the right move. Having over 50% of your damage tied to auto attacks did not exactly create fun and engaging gameplay.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Warning View Post
    Playing sub without premed feels a lot worse. Just not fun spending combo points on two different maintenance buffs/debuffs.
    I don't mind having to keep up the two maintainance spells but it does feel good knowing that SnD makes my first Shadowstrike rain combo points.

    There's a downside to just getting old buttons back, they also need to be integrated into our playstyle. Everybody knew that as soon as they announced the unpruning. Except some class devs, apparently.
    As it stands, SnD is a welcome readdition (if that's a word?) to sub's PvE rotation, from the perspective of someone that has played sub for many years and has grown bored of the rotation.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by truevalon View Post
    It was the right move. Having over 50% of your damage tied to auto attacks did not exactly create fun and engaging gameplay.
    As engaging as any spell. It's not like you press SnD and then dont do anything else.

    It's a buff you need to keep going to do max damage, the same way you need to get 5CP to do max damage with Evi. It's a click of a button, yes it doesn't make a big yellow number on your screen, but it's a dps increase just as the other abilities you use.

    If they where to remove everything that only gives us passive damage increases, the game goes down a slippery slope real quick. It's a reason they brought back a lot of utility shit in Shadowlands (like Paladin auras).
    Quote Originally Posted by atenime45 View Post
    The 10% reward. It's was unspoken rule that you DONT attack other faction so everyone could enjoy the 10% reward. But now no one cares about that anymore

  5. #145
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Noxina View Post
    As engaging as any spell. It's not like you press SnD and then dont do anything else.

    It's a buff you need to keep going to do max damage, the same way you need to get 5CP to do max damage with Evi. It's a click of a button, yes it doesn't make a big yellow number on your screen, but it's a dps increase just as the other abilities you use.

    If they where to remove everything that only gives us passive damage increases, the game goes down a slippery slope real quick. It's a reason they brought back a lot of utility shit in Shadowlands (like Paladin auras).
    Whil I can't disagree with any of this, hitting more buttons just to hit more buttons isn't good design. I'd rather have Assassination remove SND and have a new ability that requires me to make a decision. Envenom does instant nature damage... maybe another spell does some but less instant damage and applies a DoT. Do I want to use that or Envenom? Well, that will depend on the fight... how much time there is left, whether it's a solo high HP mob, etc etc.

    OR... just remove SND. Buff Envenom and/or Mut. Let me do more direct damage. That can give me quick ramp up for shorter fights (quest mobs, lower hp trash, etc) and remove the mindless SND. right now, Assassination feels like it is designed around longer fights where you can get enough CPs to keep SND up for the fight AND get lots of Envenoms.
    Last edited by clevin; 2020-12-03 at 09:02 PM.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    people yell "you pruned all the abilities, you made the game braindead"

    they add stuff back "thats not the stuff we want back. pressing the button is braindead"

    /shrug. i wouldnt listen to players either if i were blizz.
    Literally nobody complained when SnD was removed, people cared when they lost utility and actual fun skills.

  7. #147
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Aside from the mechanics, the problem is that SND doesn't fit the archetype/class fantasy of Assassination.

    Outlaw is the brawler who jumps you and beats the crap out of you.

    Assassination should be... an assassin. Someone who jumps you, hits very hard and just to make sure you die, poisons you as they leave.

    Sub... Similar but even more of a ninja, works from the shadows kind of play.

    SND makes total sense for the Outlaw archetype. They beat the crap out of you... even faster. More attacks as you take a beating. That doesn't mesh with the feel of an assassin at all. So aside from the balancing and mechanics issue, it just doesnt fit the spec from a feel standpoint either.

  8. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by mitre27 View Post
    Literally nobody complained when SnD was removed, people cared when they lost utility and actual fun skills.
    Yeah. The only skill rogues wanted back for all these years was Gouge, Poisons, and maybe Premed. 1 1/2 out of 3? It's something.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Lodravel View Post
    Yeah. The only skill rogues wanted back for all these years was Gouge, Poisons, and maybe Premed. 1 1/2 out of 3? It's something.
    I definitely wanted SnD back in addition to Gouge, Poisons, and Premed. I would like Hemo and Garrote for Subtlety as well.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

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  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by dcc626 View Post
    people yell "you pruned all the abilities, you made the game braindead"

    they add stuff back "thats not the stuff we want back. pressing the button is braindead"

    /shrug. i wouldnt listen to players either if i were blizz.
    If you can't figure out what shit to add back or how to add it back in a non-braindead way that says more about you as a dev than players
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  11. #151
    Quote Originally Posted by Drusin View Post
    If you can't figure out what shit to add back or how to add it back in a non-braindead way that says more about you as a dev than players
    We already know the devs are utterly incompetent. If they had even the slightest clue what they were doing they wouldn't have pruned iconic class abilities to begin with.

    I watched a really interesting interview last night with Kevin Jordan (one of the 3 original WoW devs, and the guy who created the original classes) interviewing Chris Kaleiki who just left Blizzard after 13 years of working on classes and PvP. They were both very critical, albeit in a professional way, of the work the other devs are doing and the mistakes they have made. Watching that stream, while it mostly just confirmed things I already knew or suspected, was 2.5 hours very well spent.
    Last edited by shoegazing; 2020-12-04 at 06:01 PM.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    I definitely wanted SnD back in addition to Gouge, Poisons, and Premed. I would like Hemo and Garrote for Subtlety as well.
    You must've realized by now that you're an outlier. No offense, of course. I, too, like having SnD back.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Lodravel View Post
    You must've realized by now that you're an outlier. No offense, of course. I, too, like having SnD back.
    Not at all. This forum is not a representative sample of the game's players. On the official Blizzard forums there are a large number of people who are happy to see SnD back.

    Forums in general only show the opinions of people who are on average a lot more invested to begin with, and beyond that the mmoc forums in particular are heavily biased towards pve. Most randos you see in game probably are nostalgic to have SnD back for its classic Rogue flavor, or simply don't care too much either way.
    Last edited by shoegazing; 2020-12-05 at 05:31 AM.
    Subtlety Rogue was an amazing, incredible, unique, and fun spec prior to Legion and BfA

    “All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.”

    ― Douglas Adams

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by shoegazing View Post
    Not at all. This forum is not a representative sample of the game's players. On the official Blizzard forums there are a large number of people who are happy to see SnD back.

    Forums in general only show the opinions of people who are on average a lot more invested to begin with, and beyond that the mmoc forums in particular are heavily biased towards pve. Most randos you see in game probably are nostalgic to have SnD back for its classic Rogue flavor, or simply don't care too much either way.
    The forums were literally fuck of complaints about SnD return...

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