Prediction of classes in TBC

[hulkgor]

Classic itself has had quite a few patches, and I’m not recalling any game breaking bugs that arose from these at all.

What patches did Classic have? It was always the same patch and even then it was subject to hotfixes throughout its existance (full list here -> https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ember-2/361448 , just see the sheer volume of hotfixes required for a tested, stable patch, now imagine it with patches every month), just a few months ago they found a combustion bug making the crit bonus permanent to mages... after 1 year of classic.

What they did was simply open questlines, item availability, fix stuff like sapping world buff npcs during speech, limit daily dungeons, bla bla, and remove gates from content.

Again, you're on the same wow classic patch TODAY as it has ever been.

[Mosha]

What patches did Classic have? It was always the same patch and even then it was subject to hotfixes throughout its existance (full list here -> https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ember-2/361448 , just see the sheer volume of hotfixes required for a tested, stable patch, now imagine it with patches every month), just a few months ago they found a combustion bug making the crit bonus permanent to mages... after 1 year of classic.

What they did was simply open questlines, item availability, fix stuff like sapping world buff npcs during speech, limit daily dungeons, bla bla, and remove gates from content.

Again, you're on the same wow classic patch TODAY as it has ever been.

No, we are not on the same patch today my friend. Just because we are (mostly) on the same data that was on one specific patch, does not in fact mean we are on the same patch, this leads me to believe that you haven't a single idea what you are talking about.

We started off with patch 1.13.2, then got .3, .4, .5, and now we are getting .6. These are all completely different patches. This isn't even including hot fixes like when they changed black lotus and the world buffs that were documented as well, but full blown patch changes.

So if adding in these patches here didn't cause much of a headache then why all of a sudden if you just change some numbers on peoples stat weights on their spells, as well as boss fights such a massive big deal?

Or do you have no clue what you're talking about and in your head you actually think we are on the same patch as day one and you think if they touch anything at all with the numbers everything will just bug out.

[Kralljin]

Agree with everything besides the class balance thing, well not so much what you said about it because it is true but because of what we are getting anyway.

The game is going to get exploited no matter what, that’s just how it’s going to be. I think them leaving it at a static state in terms of class balance will allow those exploits to be used all expansion long and create extremely dull scenarios in things like arena.

Balancing the classes through patches makes for a more fun, less scripted and predetermined meta. Yeah we ‘know what’s going to happen’ so people can plan for it, I get it. But WAY less so than releasing the classes as is and leaving them in a static state.

I'm guessing you're arguing for actual class changes to balance the Meta, not to reproduce a 2.0 - 2.4 patchcycle in terms of classes.
Which is a different debate to be frank.

[Mosha]

I'm guessing you're arguing for actual class changes to balance the Meta, not to reproduce a 2.0 - 2.4 patchcycle in terms of classes.
Which is a different debate to be frank.

No I'm speaking about actually going through a 2.0-2.4 class balance patch cycle.

[Kralljin]

No I'm speaking about actually going through a 2.0-2.4 class balance patch cycle.

Yeah, that will end up in a shitshow, i can tell you that already.

Put a Prot Paladin and SP into one group and said Protpally will keep aggro without doing anything, because Vampiric Embrace and Spiritual Attunement (Paladin gets mana back when he gets healed) has a degenerate synergy, which causes the Paladin to keep generating Mana.
Resource generation also causes threat, hence, basically anything sticks to a Prot Paladin like glue when they have an SP in their group.

Was (mostly) fixed in 2.1.

That's kinda the problem, a decent load of class changes weren't just balance changes, but quite often felt more into the territory of fixes.

Not to mention the AoE cap was introduced in 2.2, which leaves a big open door for more mage AoE farming degeneracy for quite some time.

And there is probably a load more in there that can be really detrimental to the player experience.

[Loutzi]

Just roll a BM hunter, use a scroll macro and top every meter. ez

[Mosha]

Yeah, that will end up in a shitshow, i can tell you that already.

Put a Prot Paladin and SP into one group and said Protpally will keep aggro without doing anything, because Vampiric Embrace and Spiritual Attunement (Paladin gets mana back when he gets healed) has a degenerate synergy, which causes the Paladin to keep generating Mana.
Resource generation also causes threat, hence, basically anything sticks to a Prot Paladin like glue when they have an SP in their group.

Was (mostly) fixed in 2.1.

That's kinda the problem, a decent load of class changes weren't just balance changes, but quite often felt more into the territory of fixes.

Not to mention the AoE cap was introduced in 2.2, which leaves a big open door for more mage AoE farming degeneracy for quite some time.

And there is probably a load more in there that can be really detrimental to the player experience.

Yes and there are many many other problems with every single other patch as well, including 2.4. I know this might be crazy but this might actually be more ‘fun’ for the community and allow for some actual meta changes throughout the expansion.

Look at classic. Leaving the game in a static state itself makes the game a shit show. Everyone knows and min/maxes their classes from day one. At the very least this will allow for some fun transitions between patches where one day you have your spriest and prot pallies carrying the team and the other you switch to something else.

I do not understand your arguments at all, because yeah it’s going to get exploited, pardon my French but no fucking shit... the whole game is going to get exploited.

Take off the min/max lens everyone seems to have with this game, accept an old version of wow will be unbalanced, and attempt to bring back the old, fun wow. Static class balance create absolutely 0 fun.

[Kralljin]

Yes and there are many many other problems with every single other patch as well, including 2.4. I know this might be crazy but this might actually be more ‘fun’ for the community and allow for some actual meta changes throughout the expansion.

Of course, but 2.4 represents the most stable version, because it was the one that ran the longest and is obviously the one that is a result of ~2 years of iteration.

Look at classic. Leaving the game in a static state itself makes the game a shit show.

Then i'd rather have them make *new* class changes with each phase roll out, than blindly adhering to some patchcycle.

At the very least this will allow for some fun transitions between patches where one day you have your spriest and prot pallies carrying the team and the other you switch to something else.

This sounds like something that is fun for about a day or two, then gets boring.
Then you realize that won't change for another 6+ months, depending on what is broken and when it actually got fixed.

Reminds me a lot of Phase 2 honor release, which was also fun for a few days, then it absolutely devolved and forced Blizzard to break the schedule.

No need to repeat the mistakes of the past.

[Mosha]

Of course, but 2.4 represents the most stable version, because it was the one that ran the longest and is obviously the one that is a result of ~2 years of iteration.

Then i'd rather have them make *new* class changes with each phase roll out, than blindly adhering to some patchcycle.

This sounds like something that is fun for about a day or two, then gets boring.
Then you realize that won't change for another 6+ months, depending on what is broken and when it actually got fixed.

Reminds me a lot of Phase 2 honor release, which was also fun for a few days, then it absolutely devolved and forced Blizzard to break the schedule.

No need to repeat the mistakes of the past.

Let’s just get this settled, there is no “most stable” version in terms of balance in tbc. Bugs and such? Sure, but that’s not what I’m discussing. It’s the version most people deem as the most balanced because it’s the last remembered snap shot of tbc, surprise surprise.

Then i'd rather have them make *new* class changes with each phase roll out, than blindly adhering to some patchcycle.

Absolutely not. There is no way the modern blizzard can balance tbc with today’s knowledge and make it ‘tbc esq’. It will once again just turn into a min/maxers paradise where everything is optimized.

This sounds like something that is fun for about a day or two, then gets boring.
Then you realize that won't change for another 6+ months, depending on what is broken and when it actually got fixed.

Reminds me a lot of Phase 2 honor release, which was also fun for a few days, then it absolutely devolved and forced Blizzard to break the schedule.

No need to repeat the mistakes of the past.

I’m sorry but this is such a bad take, these two aren’t even remotely comparable. One fundamentally changed the whole gameplay of every single person (on pvp servers at least) to where certain zones were either off limits because you would get camped 24/7 or you were in that group just spawn killing people. The fact you’re comparing that to class balance is quite frankly hilarious. If you just like the way that patched is balanced that’s fine I get that stance.... but what you’re attempting to say in this last part is just silly dude.

I quite frankly can’t understand how you can also think “it will be fun for like a day or two then it will get boring” while simultaneously stand on the side of “let’s keep one class balance patch throughout the whole expansion. If people are going to get bored of a certain class balance in a day or two, then how in the hell do you think they are going to handle day 300 of the exact same balance patch.

There’s literally no reason for them not to balance patch by patch if I’m being honest here. Because from what I understood our goal wasn’t to make the most balanced version of tbc, but to attempt to try to recapture tbc. And “no changes” with static classes ain’t fuckin it.

[Kralljin]

Let’s just get this settled, there is no “most stable” version in terms of balance in tbc. Bugs and such? Sure, but that’s not what I’m discussing.It’s the version most people deem as the most balanced because it’s the last remembered snap shot of tbc, surprise surprise.

There is, 2.4 is the most stable one because it has most major quirks removed that were discovered throughout TBC.

Most stable doesn't mean it has no issues, it means that it has the least issues.
And it's not a "snapshot", those versions aren't seperate entities to each other, each one built on the previous one and fixed issues that weren't fixed before.

TBC in a 2.0 class state will be a nightmare in PvE and PvP, it's going to be fun for a few days, then those issues will be mercilessly exploited while you're staring at the calender, waiting until it gets fixed.

It's same stupid shit if they had done that in Classic, sure progressive patch rollouts sound neat in theory, until you realize that pre Weapon speed normalization, the best Ranged weapon for Hunters was a green level 31 X-Bow - because it had 3.4 speed.

Or a Mortal Strike doing 200% Weapon damage, yeah, can't foresee any issues with that.

Absolutely not. There is no way the modern blizzard can balance tbc with today’s knowledge and make it ‘tbc esq’. It will once again just turn into a min/maxers paradise where everything is optimized.

Because nerfing [Insert Shadowbolt related talent] by x% is somehow difficult to pull off?

If you believe by releasing the patches ad verbatim somehow dodges this whole "it gets optimized" thing, you're playing dumb.
Matter of fact, the imbalances will make it even worse, because they are absolutely unpredictable and will not get fixed until a certain patch did it.

And if that patch happened to be 2.3 / 2.4, you're in for a wait.

[Musta]

I have been really torn between making a resto druid for tbc or stick with my shadow/disc priest for various reasons and it got me thinking... what do you guys think will become an extremely overpopulated/underpopulated class for TBC?

Personally, I think we will see a TON more Paladins/druids/shamans/and hunters.

I think mage population will plummet, warlocks should stay pretty similar, although warriors are good I believe they will also drop, priests might drop as well, and rogues will stay fairly low as well.

Druids become powerhouse pvp healers, amazing multi tank and raid healers with lifebloom, amazing tanks, ferals are needed in basically every raid, and boomkins actually have their place in raids to buff casters (especially in t5 where they can innervate mages)

Resto shamans are basically the MVP raid healer in tbc, eles for caster groups, enhance for melee group, as well as one is needed (pretty much) in every group for bloodlust/hero.

Hunters become best dps in the game with basically pressing one button

Same goes for warlocks

Mages are good and shine in certain raids, but they aren’t as dominant as they are in classic.

Priests are still solid healers, shadow is now 100% needed instead of just a niche.

Rogues do great damage, but unfortunately that’s all they do, no buffs, no nothin.

Warriors still do great damage, still great tanks, but there are other options now.

Paladins tanks are now needed for certain fights, holy still great tank heals, Ret becomes way less memey but still pretty low in dps. The buffs they bring are amazing.

cant wait to play shadow again in TBC

[Mosha]

There is, 2.4 is the most stable one because it has most major quirks removed that were discovered throughout TBC.

Most stable doesn't mean it has no issues, it means that it has the least issues.
And it's not a "snapshot", those versions aren't seperate entities to each other, each one built on the previous one and fixed issues that weren't fixed before.

Issues in class balance is subject as fuck so saying it has the least doesn't mean that much to me when we are discussing an old version of wow, so the argument 'it has the least issues' doesn't mean jack nothin.

And yes 2.4 is a snapshot what are you talking about lol. Everyone and their dog who has played tbc in the last 12 years has basically only played it on that patch. Most people don't even know what the early tbc looked like. Which is what I mean by snapshot, this is the version most people know of.

TBC in a 2.0 class state will be a nightmare in PvE and PvP, it's going to be fun for a few days, then those issues will be mercilessly exploited while you're staring at the calender, waiting until it gets fixed.

It will be a nightmare in pvp and pve at 2.4 as well dude. Especially pvp are you joking me? There are still massive imbalances in every single version. At the very least we can have different metas so people aren't just going to say "You know what I'm rolling hunter so I can be top dps every single raid tier", add some variety and stop worrying about "OMG UNBALANCED THIS UNBALANCED THAT" while discussing freaking classic versions of wow. It's honestly a joke lol.

It's same stupid shit if they had done that in Classic, sure progressive patch rollouts sound neat in theory, until you realize that pre Weapon speed normalization, the best Ranged weapon for Hunters was a green level 31 X-Bow - because it had 3.4 speed.

No what you're suggesting to do is the same stupid shit as classic and I'm not even sure how you're trying to compare what I'm saying to it when it's literally the exact opposite of what happened in classic. What YOU are trying to push is the 'same stupid shit' as in classic. Same boring meta every. single. day. week in and week out for the rest of eternity. Now THAT'S boring. (Also to save yourself anymore embassassment I have noticed you have done this a couple times now, don't compare a class balance patch to a complete change in system patch like no bgs, itemization changes, etc they aren't even comparable at all).

Because nerfing [Insert Shadowbolt related talent] by x% is somehow difficult to pull off?

If you believe by releasing the patches ad verbatim somehow dodges this whole "it gets optimized" thing, you're playing dumb.
Matter of fact, the imbalances will make it even worse, because they are absolutely unpredictable and will not get fixed until a certain patch did it.

And if that patch happened to be 2.3 / 2.4, you're in for a wait.

I never said that the patch wouldn't get optimized by the players, what I was telling you (and it seems it might have been to difficult to understand for you) is that the patch would get optimized BY BLIZZARD. As in the changes they make would make a lot of classes drastically change because they would probably try to do things like nerf locks and hunters in raid and bring up dps of shit like boomkins or whatever to bring everyone into a homogenized dps when that's not what tbc is about.

Sorry, but what you're suggesting to do is just simply dumb. Not only that, almost all of your arguments you are using against me, fit better when discussing why not to use YOUR version of tbc lol.

Sorry but there's no more reason to discuss this

[Kralljin]

Issues in class balance is subject as fuck so saying it has the least doesn't mean that much to me when we are discussing an old version of wow, so the argument 'it has the least issues' doesn't mean jack nothin.

I think there is a slight difference between the imbalance of 2.0 and the one in 2.4

Playing the "It's subjective" card, is being willfully dishonest.
Hate to break it to you: Class balance usually improves over the course of an expansion until the X.0 ruins it.

And yes 2.4 is a snapshot what are you talking about lol.

In terms of balance?
Nope, it's the result of ~2 years of iteration, whereas any previous patch is the result of a shorter span of iteration.

It will be a nightmare in pvp and pve at 2.4 as well dude. Especially pvp are you joking me? There are still massive imbalances in every single version.

Yeah, so let's just make it worse for the sake of variety.
Being 10k into debt is a different story than being 1k into debt, you're still in debt, but you're less fucked.

It's like eating a rotten banana because you want some variety in your diet.

No what you're suggesting to do is the same stupid shit as classic and I'm not even sure how you're trying to compare what I'm saying to it when it's literally the exact opposite of what happened in classic.

I'm not, i'd rather advocate for them to make balance changes based off 2.4 state.

What YOU are trying to push is the 'same stupid shit' as in classic. Same boring meta every. single. day. week in and week out for the rest of eternity. Now THAT'S boring. (Also to save yourself anymore embassassment I have noticed you have done this a couple times now, don't compare a class balance patch to a complete change in system patch like no bgs, itemization changes, etc they aren't even comparable at all).

Having broken shit for the sake authenticity (or in your case, "variety"), which then got fixed later down the line is literally caused a ton of issues in Classic.

I reiterate, your proposal is Phase 2 all over again, fun for a few days, then the broken state settles in and is just downright horrible.
Fun for the people who only intend to dip their toes into TBC, bad for people that actually want to play it consistently.

[Mosha]

I reiterate, your proposal is Phase 2 all over again, fun for a few days, then the broken state settles in and is just downright horrible.
Fun for the people who only intend to dip their toes into TBC, bad for people that actually want to play it consistently.

Thank you for proving once again, that you haven't a clue what you're speaking about when you use analogies like this in order to DEFEND a static class balance lol.

[Kralljin]

Thank you for proving once again, that you haven't a clue what you're speaking about when you use analogies like this in order to DEFEND a static class balance lol.

Maybe you should check out actual class changes made from 2.0 to 2.4 before you say "I want that", because i have the distinct impression you don't have the slightest clue what you're bargaining for.

And yes, i prefer static over an absolutely broken shitshow, which then doesn't get fixed for 6+ months because we need to adhere to some schedule for the sake of it.

Going down the rabbit hole of progressive patches is literally the worst possible way to implement variety within the meta.

[Mosha]

Maybe you should check out actual class changes made from 2.0 to 2.4 before you say "I want that", because i have the distinct impression you don't have the slightest clue what you're bargaining for.

And yes, i prefer static over an absolutely broken shitshow, which then doesn't get fixed for 6+ months because we need to adhere to some schedule for the sake of it.

I know exactly what it was like. This isn't the issue with what I'm trying to tell you. The fucking hilarious part is how you keep on comparing a dynamic class balance system to classic and saying "Look what happened to classic here, this is exactly what it will be like", while you are literally pushing for a system in classic at this very moment.

Sorry I can't take you seriously anymore, it's beyond dumb at this point. Embarrassingly so.

[deenman]

You pretty much spelled it out how classes could see an increase based on whats good/really needed,for me personaly....I like the idea of shadowpriest,i only started playing it late wrath and a bunch in cata,so i never got to experience the ''mana battery'' phase,granted the dps will be leagues lower than it was in the expansions i played it but thats fine if i can get the feeling of truly supporting the group and the gameplay is good

[Kralljin]

I know exactly what it was like.

Unless you have a sizeable experience in TBC private servers (where, ironically, most of them operate on the 2.4 state for precisely those reasons), i'm going to doubt that statement.

The fucking hilarious part is how you keep on comparing a dynamic class balance system to classic and saying "Look what happened to classic here, this is exactly what it will be like", while you are literally pushing for a system in classic at this very moment.

No, you're just being willfully dishonest for the sake for own argument.

Choosing a version, despite knowing that it's utterly broken in some areas, for some reason is what led to a ton of issues that Classic has.
That is not debatable, that is fact.

You argue that Blizzard should roll out every patch from 2.0 to 2.4 with all strings attached, that's going to end in a disaster, because 2.0 is the worst state of class balance in TBC.

I am arguing that one should make class changes based off 2.4, then make changes as phases roll out, if that's not an option, i prefer to stick the most stable version.
Has it stale a Meta like Classic? Yes, but that is preferable to an absolute nightmare rollercoaster that we need to ride until a certain patch fixed the issue.

Sorry I can't take you seriously anymore, it's beyond dumb at this point. Embarrassingly so.

I think the only thing that is embarrassing is your inability to grasp that people can have different views, depending on the issue.

[iosdeveloper]

i member warlocks and resto druids being insanely op

[hulkgor]

Sorry I can't take you seriously anymore, it's beyond dumb at this point. Embarrassingly so.

You do realize a lot of people have the same impression about you, and your inability to understand what people are talking about.

What a very weird hill to die on. But hey! Keep at it, hope TBC is everything you wish for.