1. #2421
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Never said you were. I'm simply saying that I can only go on what I'm seeing, and I'm not seeing a poll with hundreds of votes per option.
    The very person who made the poll in the thread mentions the poll was reset. Nevertheless, even after the reset, the existing totals mirrors the past ones. It's a smaller sample size now, lol - but still actuate.

  2. #2422
    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    The idea that Bards sit there and strictly buff (support!!11!!) while doing nothing else is archaic and doesn't belong in WoW. Hence, if Bards were to be implemented in WoW, they'd follow the DPS/Healer/Tank format like every other class in the game.
    I know they would. That's my problem.

    Personally, I would use the word "traditional" instead of "archaic." And yes, traditions should be interrogated. For my part, I believe that this is a justified tradition as that support role is what makes Bard unique - it is what sets it apart from your Wizards and Sorcerers and Clerics and Priests. If you are mocking that role, like Shaman and Paladin do, I simply believe that efforts are better placed elsewhere.

    As much as I despise Tinkers, I would much rather have them than have WoW mock the Bard - a class that I do enjoy. You can fully realize the Tinker concept (even if it is contrary to everything I enjoy about WarCraft lore, I do have to acknowledge that it is a part of it). I cannot ignore its appeal and appropriateness because it is inconvenient to my personal desires and tastes.
    Last edited by draugril; 2021-01-05 at 04:06 PM.

  3. #2423
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Soul of Azeroth
    Posts
    29,818
    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    The very person who made the poll in the thread mentions the poll was reset. Nevertheless, even after the reset, the existing totals mirrors the past ones. It's a smaller sample size now, lol - but still actuate.
    Okay, but again the same problem exists; I'm not seeing a poll with hundreds of votes per option. If you're telling me that Bards are extremely popular and it only has 50 votes in a poll where the average choice got 35, I simply can't agree with your conclusion. Especially when we have polls with way more votes and participation where Bards get steamrolled by other class options, and Bard proponents have a hard time explaining what exactly a Bard would do in WoW. Heck, Blizzard themselves have never supported the concept beyond a Bard NPC in the Rogue class hall and some spoof characters.

  4. #2424
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    21,877
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Actually that's incorrect. Unlike Texas vs the US, MMOC vs WoW official forums is an open forum versus a closed form. In other words, you have current players only on the WoW forums whereas on MMOC you have current players AND potential players who have either stopped playing the game, or could potentially play the game in the future. So which group is more representative of the potential user base for a FUTURE class? ONLY current players, or current players, former players, and potential players?
    Are you claiming that the pool of posters in MMO-Champion forums is a greater and more accurate representative of the WoW player base than the official forums themselves?
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2021-01-05 at 04:29 PM.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  5. #2425
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    I know they would. That's my problem.

    Personally, I would use the word "traditional" instead of "archaic." And yes, traditions should be interrogated. For my part, I believe that this is a justified tradition as that support role is what makes Bard unique - it is what sets it apart from your Wizards and Sorcerers and Clerics and Priests. If you are mocking that role, like Shaman and Paladin do, I simply believe that efforts are better placed elsewhere.

    As much as I despise Tinkers, I would much rather have them than have WoW mock the Bard - a class that I do enjoy. You can fully realize the Tinker concept (even if it is contrary to everything I enjoy about WarCraft lore, I do have to acknowledge that it is a part of it). I cannot ignore its appeal and appropriateness because it is inconvenient to my personal desires and tastes.
    So in the traditional sense, what do you want a Bard to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Okay, but again the same problem exists; I'm not seeing a poll with hundreds of votes per option. If you're telling me that Bards are extremely popular and it only has 50 votes in a poll where the average choice got 35, I simply can't agree with your conclusion. Especially when we have polls with way more votes and participation where Bards get steamrolled by other class options, and Bard proponents have a hard time explaining what exactly a Bard would do in WoW. Heck, Blizzard themselves have never supported the concept beyond a Bard NPC in the Rogue class hall and some spoof characters.
    I'm not telling you Bards are extremely popular. I'm saying it's possible their popularity is growing. And now with the recent NPCs, it seems Blizzard is laying the foundations for a music based class.

  6. #2426
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    21,877
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If you're telling me that Bards are extremely popular and it only has 50 votes in a poll where the average choice got 35, I simply can't agree with your conclusion.
    He did not say they're "extremely popular". This is just you misrepresenting what people post.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  7. #2427
    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    So in the traditional sense, what do you want a Bard to do?
    What they've done traditionally.

    Inspire their allies to excel in the performance of their own roles. Hamper the ability of enemies to perform theirs. A Bard's DPS should come through the DPS in the group doing significantly more DPS owing to the presence of a Bard - "significant" meaning at least enough DPS to make up for the lack of a DPS class in the group. Their healing should come through both increasing the potency of the healer as well. And their tanking comes through hampering the ability of the enemy to deal damage at all.

    As you note, WoW does not support this type of gameplay.

    Thus, as much as I love the Bard class, I just feel it's inappropriate for WoW, particularly when other options exist that wouldn't need to be broken down before they can fit the relatively narrow mold of WoW.

  8. #2428
    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    This is really exciting to see! The Bard is a staple archetype that deserves to be in WoW. I'll also have you know, I'm ALMOST* finished with my Bard concept!



    You'll be surprised to know then that in a recent poll on the main forums, when asked which class people would most like to become playable, Bards placed second with Necromancers being #1, a Dragon-based class being #3, and Tinkers being #4. The poll has over 643 votes, and for some unknown reason, it reset at one point and now the dragon-based class and tinkers are tied at 3rd (and now only showing 251 total votes).

    Thread: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ed-next/775610
    Poll: https://www.strawpoll.me/42279947/r

    So obviously, the potential popularity of a Bard class is present.
    Nothing I said about the Bard was about it being popular or being in demand. It is all about marketability, and the Bard concept lacks the class identity (within Warcraft) that would be able to proper push it as a featured class.

    Look at Demon Hunters. 100x cooler concept, incredibly marketable, absolutely Warcraft. That is what the Bard is missing, considering everyone who talks about a Bard _has a different vision_ of what a Bard would be. There is no unified Bard concept in WoW that people immediately identify as a Warcraft Bard outside of two concepts - ETC and the April Fools Bard. And as unpopular as Monks ended up being, they at least always had a familiar Warcraft identity through the Brewmaster.

    Bard unfortunately does not have a strong identity in WoW. It isn't what will drive hype for the majority of players in the game expecting more out of a new class option. It lacks the Warcraft identity, it lacks the Rule of Cool. If Blizzard spent time fostering a cool Bard NPC faction like the Harpers in DnD, then sure maybe we could get something out of it. The closest thing we have is the Warsong and they're pretty much far removed from any musical influence since Warcraft 2.

    I'll say that Shadowlands has definitely peppered more Bardic potential, but it's still very subtle, and it needs to be more than just instrument buffs and NPC quotes. It's definitely not something the majority of fans would be anticipating, just what the enthusiasts are wanting to see. That is the problem that Pandaria faced, and I doubt Blizzard would want to make those same mistakes again.

    - edit -

    Just want to be clear, I'm not saying this makes it impossible for Bards to be playable or anything like that. I am simply illustrating the cons unique to the Bard concept. Every potential class has their strengths and weaknesses, and the Bard's lies in their lack of cohesion and roots in the Warcraft universe. What connections exist are very loose, and often used more to break the 4th wall. I don't see Blizzard ever passing up the other, stronger potential class concepts to take up a Bard. I could see a stronger case for a Bard if Blizzard slowly fostered a stronger identity, like making a cool NPC Bard faction or character that makes people really want to play as; or if they added a Bard as a part of a collection of Classes in the style of Allied Races (where Class Skins would be most ideal).
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-01-05 at 05:18 PM.

  9. #2429
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Soul of Azeroth
    Posts
    29,818
    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    I'm not telling you Bards are extremely popular. I'm saying it's possible their popularity is growing. And now with the recent NPCs, it seems Blizzard is laying the foundations for a music based class.
    I'm sorry but I disagree. It takes more than a couple of NPCs for a class foundation to be laid. Look at the foundations of the Death Knight, Monk, and Demon Hunter classes for example. Those foundations are a heck of a lot deeper than a few NPCs and a few quotes of texts.

    Again, consider that Blizzard never even made a Bard class in the tabletop RPGs (DKs, Brewmasters, and Demon Hunters were all classes in the tabletop RPG for example). That should be a big flashing sign for anyone thinking a Bard class is on the way.

  10. #2430
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    21,877
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I'm sorry but I disagree. It takes more than a couple of NPCs for a class foundation to be laid. Look at the foundations of the Death Knight, Monk, and Demon Hunter classes for example.
    The entire "foundation" for the monk class was literally a NPC that was never implemented into the World of Warcraft game before MoP.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  11. #2431
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    What they've done traditionally.

    Inspire their allies to excel in the performance of their own roles. Hamper the ability of enemies to perform theirs. A Bard's DPS should come through the DPS in the group doing significantly more DPS owing to the presence of a Bard - "significant" meaning at least enough DPS to make up for the lack of a DPS class in the group. Their healing should come through both increasing the potency of the healer as well. And their tanking comes through hampering the ability of the enemy to deal damage at all.

    As you note, WoW does not support this type of gameplay.

    Thus, as much as I love the Bard class, I just feel it's inappropriate for WoW, particularly when other options exist that wouldn't need to be broken down before they can fit the relatively narrow mold of WoW.
    There has to be a middle ground. The Bard class in WoW could be able to do everything you mentioned, but not to the point that you mentioned of it being "significant."

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I'm sorry but I disagree. It takes more than a couple of NPCs for a class foundation to be laid. Look at the foundations of the Death Knight, Monk, and Demon Hunter classes for example. Those foundations are a heck of a lot deeper than a few NPCs and a few quotes of texts.

    Again, consider that Blizzard never even made a Bard class in the tabletop RPGs (DKs, Brewmasters, and Demon Hunters were all classes in the tabletop RPG for example). That should be a big flashing sign for anyone thinking a Bard class is on the way.
    Obviously, there's a difference between the beginnings of a class foundation and THE class foundation. I think we're seeing the beginnings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Nothing I said about the Bard was about it being popular or being in demand. It is all about marketability, and the Bard concept lacks the class identity (within Warcraft) that would be able to proper push it as a featured class.

    Look at Demon Hunters. 100x cooler concept, incredibly marketable, absolutely Warcraft. That is what the Bard is missing, considering everyone who talks about a Bard _has a different vision_ of what a Bard would be. There is no unified Bard concept in WoW that people immediately identify as a Warcraft Bard outside of two concepts - ETC and the April Fools Bard. And as unpopular as Monks ended up being, they at least always had a familiar Warcraft identity through the Brewmaster.

    Bard unfortunately does not have a strong identity in WoW. It isn't what will drive hype for the majority of players in the game expecting more out of a new class option. It lacks the Warcraft identity, it lacks the Rule of Cool. If Blizzard spent time fostering a cool Bard NPC faction like the Harpers in DnD, then sure maybe we could get something out of it. The closest thing we have is the Warsong and they're pretty much far removed from any musical influence since Warcraft 2.

    I'll say that Shadowlands has definitely peppered more Bardic potential, but it's still very subtle, and it needs to be more than just instrument buffs and NPC quotes. It's definitely not something the majority of fans would be anticipating, just what the enthusiasts are wanting to see. That is the problem that Pandaria faced, and I doubt Blizzard would want to make those same mistakes again.
    I was referring to your 'cool' comment more. If there's enough demand for a class, in the eyes of the players, it's plenty cool enough. In the Bard concept that I'm currently developing, one of the specs is called Loresinger. Through music, they can conjure up illusions of major lore figures to help them fight. I think that's pretty cool.

  12. #2432
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Soul of Azeroth
    Posts
    29,818
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The entire "foundation" for the monk class was literally a NPC that was never implemented into the World of Warcraft game before MoP.
    Incorrect;

    1. Pandaren Empire (WC3)
    2. Brewmaster Hero (WC3)
    3. Brewmaster Class (TTRPG)
    4. Chen Stormstout (WC3 lore hero)
    5. Brewmasters (CCG)
    6. Brewmaster trained by Chen (Vanilla)
    7. Pandren Monk Pet w/letter from Chen (WotLK)

    What do we have from Bards again?

  13. #2433
    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    I was referring to your 'cool' comment more. If there's enough demand for a class, in the eyes of the players, it's plenty cool enough. In the Bard concept that I'm currently developing, one of the specs is called Loresinger. Through music, they can conjure up illusions of major lore figures to help them fight. I think that's pretty cool.
    I'm sorry but your example was a poll with 53 votes for Bard.

    I hardly consider that to be a tangible 'enough demand for a class'.

    If you asked any of your casual WoW playing friends what they think the next WoW class would be, how often would Bard be *immediately* mentioned off the top of their head? That's the sort of permeation I'm talking about.


    Forums are always going to be the vocal outlet of the enthusiast. Blizzard doesn't design WoW towards the enthusiast, they design WoW for the mainstream. This isn't the days of Warcraft 3 where some in-joke can be made reality as long as it's popular enough; the majority of the player base of the RTS WAS the enthusiast so those decisions made sense. We've seen now that the opposite is true considering Blizzard has banked on pleasing enthusiasts (major focus on end-game hardcore Raiding) and it bit them in the ass. The game has to be accessible, the game has to be marketable. What Bards lack is the marketability. They're not on the tip of everyone's tongue when people think of a new class; they're always considered but not as tangibly as other Class Concepts that are yet to be in the game.

    Something would have to change *before* a Bard could plausibly be considered, otherwise Blizzard is going to be looking at repeating the same mistakes of announcing Diablo Immortal when everyone and their mom is expecting Diablo 4 and Diablo 2 Remaster.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-01-05 at 05:31 PM.

  14. #2434
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Soul of Azeroth
    Posts
    29,818
    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    Obviously, there's a difference between the beginnings of a class foundation and THE class foundation. I think we're seeing the beginnings.
    You said there were Bard NPCs. What NPCs in particular were you talking about?

    The first thing the Bard concept needs is a hero with unique abilities. Frankly without that, you're not even seeing the beginning of a foundation.

  15. #2435
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    21,877
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Incorrect;

    1. Pandaren Empire (WC3)
    2. Brewmaster Hero (WC3)
    3. Brewmaster Class (TTRPG)
    4. Chen Stormstout (WC3 lore hero)
    5. Brewmasters (CCG)
    6. Brewmaster trained by Chen (Vanilla)
    7. Pandren Monk Pet w/letter from Chen (WotLK)

    What do we have from Bards again?
    #1 is just an April Fools' joke that was never realized into canonicity until MoP.

    #2 and #4 are just one and the same.

    #3 and #5 are dismissed outright for not being canon to WoW. We're talking about the foundations of the class in WoW.

    #6 is not a monk, just literally a cook that knows how to make beers. By that reasoning, everyone who takes the cooking profession is a monk.

    #7 If you're going to say pets work as foundations of classes, you'll have to also accept we have the foundation of a space marine class, then.
    "Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons" by Varodoc
    "You sit in OG/SW waiting on a Mythic+ queue" by Altmer <- Oh, the pearls in this forum...
    "They sort of did this Dragonriding, which ushered in the Dracthyr race." by Teriz <- the BS some people reach for their narratives...

  16. #2436
    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    There has to be a middle ground. The Bard class in WoW could be able to do everything you mentioned, but not to the point that you mentioned of it being "significant."
    Literally every class in WoW provides some group buffs. You cannot claim that as an element of the Bard's identity when it is shared with everyone else. As the saying goes, "If everyone is super, no one is." Thus stating that a Bard could realize its support role by doing the exact same thing that everyone else does is a non-statement.

  17. #2437
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Soul of Azeroth
    Posts
    29,818
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    #1 is just an April Fools' joke that was never realized into canonicity until MoP.

    #2 and #4 are just one and the same.

    #3 and #5 are dismissed outright for not being canon to WoW. We're talking about the foundations of the class in WoW.

    #6 is not a monk, just literally a cook that knows how to make beers. By that reasoning, everyone who takes the cooking profession is a monk.

    #7 If you're going to say pets work as foundations of classes, you'll have to also accept we have the foundation of a space marine class, then.
    1. Chen assisted Rexxar in the founding of Durator, a major event where Jaina's father died. That was always canon.
    2 & 4. Incorrect, the Brewmaster hero established what the Brewmaster could DO, and later those abilities established what the Monk class could do.
    3 & 5 being canon is irrelevant. Being in the TTRPG and the CCG establishes the "Warcraft flavor" of a class concept whether its canon lore or not. Art from the TTRPG for example;



    If you don't think Blizzard used this for the creation of the Monk class, you're fooling yourself.

    6: The cook said he was trained by Chen himself, establishing Stormstout in WoW (which was completely unnecessary).

    7: That only works if the Space Marine hero has all of the above things I mentioned. The Pandaren Monk pet was the last clue in a long line of foundation building.

  18. #2438
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I'm sorry but your example was a poll with 53 votes for Bard.

    I hardly consider that to be a tangible 'enough demand for a class'.

    If you asked any of your casual WoW playing friends what they think the next WoW class would be, how often would Bard be *immediately* mentioned off the top of their head? That's the sort of permeation I'm talking about.


    Forums are always going to be the vocal outlet of the enthusiast. Blizzard doesn't design WoW towards the enthusiast, they design WoW for the mainstream. This isn't the days of Warcraft 3 where some in-joke can be made reality as long as it's popular enough; the majority of the player base of the RTS WAS the enthusiast so those decisions made sense. We've seen now that the opposite is true considering Blizzard has banked on pleasing enthusiasts (major focus on end-game hardcore Raiding) and it bit them in the ass. The game has to be accessible, the game has to be marketable. What Bards lack is the marketability. They're not on the tip of everyone's tongue when people think of a new class; they're always considered but not as tangibly as other Class Concepts that are yet to be in the game.

    Something would have to change *before* a Bard could plausibly be considered, otherwise Blizzard is going to be looking at repeating the same mistakes of announcing Diablo Immortal when everyone and their mom is looking out for Diablo 4 and Diablo 2 Remaster.
    The Bard is a common archetype in fantasy games and culture. You're underestimating their appeal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You said there were Bard NPCs. What NPCs in particular were you talking about?

    The first thing the Bard concept needs is a hero with unique abilities. Frankly without that, you're not even seeing the beginning of a foundation.
    I didn't say they were Bard NPCs...just NPCs... telling us that music might be capable of more than just being music. Are they bards? IDK. You don't think it's possible they're implementing the foundations of music's capabilities before introducing a major bard in lore?

  19. #2439
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
    10+ Year Old Account
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Soul of Azeroth
    Posts
    29,818
    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    I didn't say they were Bard NPCs...just NPCs... telling us that music might be capable of more than just being music. Are they bards? IDK. You don't think it's possible they're implementing the foundations of music's capabilities before introducing a major bard in lore?
    Well we already know that musical magic exists in WoW, so there's no need to establish that. What we need is a lore hero to show us HOW a hero might use musical magic while adventuring. Again, the struggles people are having with picturing what a Bard can do largely comes from a lack of this Bard hero figure. You guys are pretty much on a ship without a sail and no wind. In other words without a lore hero with unique abilities, there's no direction for this concept.

  20. #2440
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well we already know that musical magic exists in WoW, so there's no need to establish that. What we need is a lore hero to show us HOW a hero might use musical magic while adventuring. Again, the struggles people are having with picturing what a Bard can do largely comes from a lack of this Bard hero figure. You guys are pretty much on a ship without a sail and no wind. In other words without a lore hero with unique abilities, there's no direction for this concept.
    We're talking about lore. Besides, what... 2 class spells? (which don't even mention music in their description), and some NPC spells, there's nothing in Lore to my knowledge that explains what music could be capable of doing....until now. That's the beginning of a foundation.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •