1. #2421
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Class Skins are a very divided concept here.

    -- snip --
    Interesting thoughts. I'm having trouble finding where the difference would be between this and just adding in more specs for characters. Like these to me look like four new Priest specs sharing different sorts of spells & talents. If we were to assume that Blizz did only half of these per class, that's still 24 new specs to balance on top of the 36 they are already balancing. Compared to the 2-4 they would need to balance for a new class, that seems like a lot.

    Part of where Covenants work that I feel this falls short is that the abilities are mostly shared by all classes. My Necro Monk has Bonedust Brew which is a special ability no other class has, but otherwise her spells are very much the same that a Necro Warrior would have. Different specialties, different choices, but still the same baseline abilities. This I feel would get unwieldy really fast.

    That being said, Witchdoctors sound super fun to play, so I'm not totally opposed.

  2. #2422
    Quote Originally Posted by AngerFork View Post
    Interesting thoughts. I'm having trouble finding where the difference would be between this and just adding in more specs for characters. Like these to me look like four new Priest specs sharing different sorts of spells & talents. If we were to assume that Blizz did only half of these per class, that's still 24 new specs to balance on top of the 36 they are already balancing. Compared to the 2-4 they would need to balance for a new class, that seems like a lot.
    In my mind, it wouldn't be different specs, rather they would be variants of existing classes/specs. Think of it more like an extension of Talent options on top of customized visuals. Ideally it's an extended 'Covenants' (Specialty Talent) option over top the existing Class and Specs, with some existing Class mechanics (Totems, summonables) being moved over into Specialty Talents and being shared around. We already have some of this type of Ability sharing between classes (Bloodlust, Time Warp), and this idea is just an extension of that while controlling the ability weight to be more on par with how Talents are customizeable within a given spec.

    Whereas Talents are customized abilities at a Spec level, Specialty Talents are customization at the Class level. If you are a Witchdoctor, then you can still play as Holy Discipline or Shadow, except you have access to special Witchdoctor Specialty Talents, and everything would be rethemed to support a proper Witchdoctor theme. If you want to play as a Priestess of the Moon, you are still playing Holy, Disc or Shadow with more of a Moon/Owl/Celestial theme, special attack animation visuals, and access to POTM Specialty Talents. The core gameplay of a Holy Priest or Disc Priest or Shadow Priest would mainly be in tact, with the variations coming from Talents. It's literally a Covenants system that is designed around Class Identities rather than representing broad factions.

    To keep everything balanceable within reason, the Specialty Talents would likely be weighted similarly across the board, as well as letting classes share common Specialty Talents similar to how Covenants all have one Unique ability and one Shared ability. Having certain existing class abilities moved into Specialty type would also help homogenize this system, though every class can maintain its own unique balance. A Priestess of the Moon's Starfall doesn't necessarily have to be the exact same strength and ability as Balance Druid, it would be balanced to whatever fits best against the other Priest Specialty Talents. It may seem like a huge amount of balancing, but what I'm proposing is a *very* controlled system as opposed to simply giving Priests Starfall and calling it a day. This is more like bringing back the Vanilla WoW Priest Racials, but balancing them properly in the style of Covenant powers rather than say giving Dwarves a Fear Ward that made Dwarf Priest a must-have for certain boss fights.

    I would also say that not every class would get an equal amount of 'Class skins'. I don't think it has to be equal any more than Race/Class combinations are equal. We have 21 races able to choose Priest, but only 2 races can choose Demon Hunter. At some point, the Racial diversity of Priests is being lost by having to spread itself amongst so many races, and my idea is to bring back some of that flavour through diversity. I'd favour using this system for specific Class concepts that have no place in the game on their own. Warcraft 3 is good starting basis for this, seeing how so many different tanky melee Heroes all got abridged into one singular 'Warrior' class, this is a time to spread them back out into the proper Chieftains and Blademasters and Mountain Kings (Gladiator) as they should have always been. Or, if some prefer, go ham with all the crazy combinations like Gnomish Blademasters and Draenei Gladiators. I personally see it that if races of multiple cultures can learn to adopt Night Elf Druidism and Pandaren Mysticism, then there's little reason to limit who can be a Witchdoctor or a Blademaster. It's just a race adopting another style of magic and combat.

    I simply used Priest as an example because it's already an open-concept that lends itself to more variations of play, whereas a class like Demon Hunter is much more limited due to its unique mechanics. We could have 4 Priest variants and 4 Warrior variants (Chieftain, Blademaster, Gladiator, Warlord/Highlord), but maybe only 1 Warlock variant (Necromancer) or 1 Monk variant (Runemaster). The idea is to bridge in 'misfit' Class Concepts that people are already anticipating, rather than trying to shoehorn endless variations of Nature-themed Warlocks and Tech-themed Warlocks for the sake of meeting a status quo. Identity comes first, and I'd suggest this system be used to roll out Class Skin concepts over time rather than having it immediately work across the board. If 2 Priest variants and 2 Warrior variants work, then expand outwards. If it doesn't work out, then drop the system entirely and lore-it away by next expansion just like the Artifact Power or Covenants system.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-01-05 at 04:57 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Well, yes. Our opinions are below the canon lore of the game, because we're not the ones writing the lore.

  3. #2423
    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    i didnt even know he was.
    you seem massively defensive.
    so unless you plan to answer my questions then dont talk to me.
    ill answer

    they are a medieval support style archetype that fits a sword and sorcery style game unlike steam punk midgets in zords

  4. #2424
    Quote Originally Posted by Sagenod View Post
    And that's the reason I'm nowadays more interested in the concept of class skins or possibly new specs rather a new class. I agree, the Bard would have trouble fitting in.

    People don't discuss class skins anymore, what happened to that?
    Different thread:
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...20-Class-skins

    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    i didnt even know he was.
    you seem massively defensive.
    so unless you plan to answer my questions then dont talk to me.
    Right...and i'm the queen of England.

    As for your question: "why add a Bard class?"
    Simple - it fills a roleplaying aspect that is missing from the game. Music and sound has not been, massively, represented in game, and is lacking a representative, just like your precious Tinker.

    One could wonder, how does a music playing class can be taken seriously, as a fully functioning class. To that i say, look at the Priest. In life, Priests aren't much of a combatant profession yet, they have managed to make it a functional combative class.

    Quote Originally Posted by AngerFork View Post
    Interesting thoughts. I'm having trouble finding where the difference would be between this and just adding in more specs for characters. Like these to me look like four new Priest specs sharing different sorts of spells & talents. If we were to assume that Blizz did only half of these per class, that's still 24 new specs to balance on top of the 36 they are already balancing. Compared to the 2-4 they would need to balance for a new class, that seems like a lot.

    That being said, Witchdoctors sound super fun to play, so I'm not totally opposed.
    I agree that they could be specializations, rather than fully-fledged classes.

    If you're interested in the Witch Doctor - check out my Shadow Hunter class concept, a few pages ago.

  5. #2425
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    @Amunrasonther once linked a NPC that could be interpreted as a "seed" for a future bard class, laying down the foundation for the idea of music having actual magic power.

    So I came across said NPC in the world, and noticed three souls in the crypt behind him, all three tagged "Lost Chalice Band". One of the souls, Chiu Brightcast, says this when you speak to him:

    So we have a NPC talking about the power of music, and a NPC who was part of a band talking about wanderlust and thirst for adventure. Looks to me like Blizzard might be really setting the foundation for a bard-like class.
    This is really exciting to see! The Bard is a staple archetype that deserves to be in WoW. I'll also have you know, I'm ALMOST* finished with my Bard concept!

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post

    The concept just isn't 'cool' enough to exist. It's much too niche and there isn't a solid identity behind it the way other known Warcraft class tropes have been fleshed out. Even the Spellbreaker has a stronger identity to it than Bards do. I'd love to see Blizzard do a Bard concept, but I feel like it would have to be added as a Class skin along other B-Tier concepts, or perhaps as a Profession that allows active combat abilities, similar to Engineering or Profession buffs.
    You'll be surprised to know then that in a recent poll on the main forums, when asked which class people would most like to become playable, Bards placed second with Necromancers being #1, a Dragon-based class being #3, and Tinkers being #4. The poll has over 643 votes, and for some unknown reason, it reset at one point and now the dragon-based class and tinkers are tied at 3rd (and now only showing 251 total votes).

    Thread: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ed-next/775610
    Poll: https://www.strawpoll.me/42279947/r

    So obviously, the potential popularity of a Bard class is present.
    Last edited by Amunrasonther; 2021-01-05 at 02:32 PM.

  6. #2426
    instead of adding a new class making the game more complicated why not just design all the classes to work and have fun again. make rogues fun to play again.
    “Choose a job you love and you'll never have to work a day in your life” “Logic will get you from A to Z; Imagination will get you everywhere.”

  7. #2427
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable View Post

    What the fuck kind of logic is that? are you expecting the Tinker to be some kind of a futuristic class? because that's not what Goblin and Gnome engineering is about. They are, mostly, mechanical, electric and, prone to explosions.
    Yeah, that's EXACTLY what the Tinker is;



    That is far more advanced tech than fragmentation bombs and steel traps.

    We don't care for technical issues, like spec or PvP/PvE division (like you don't, when it comes to other class concepts). So, fantasy/RP-wise, those abilities fit the bill.
    As shown, there's a vast difference between a mech suit with lasers, robots, gravity weapons, etc. and medieval gadgets and primitive explosive devices.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    ill answer

    they are a medieval support style archetype that fits a sword and sorcery style game unlike steam punk midgets in zords
    It's important to note that those "punk midgets in zords" have a far more robust history in Warcraft than Bards.

    We've had Tinker heroes in WC3 and HotS, we've hard Tinker classes in the table top RPG, and we see prominent Tinker characters in WoW.

    We don't see anything like that for Bards. Perhaps most damning is the lack of any prominent Bard characters in Warcraft in general, and the complete lack of Bard classes in the table top RPGs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    You'll be surprised to know then that in a recent poll on the main forums, when asked which class people would most like to become playable, Bards placed second with Necromancers being #1, a Dragon-based class being #3, and Tinkers being #4. The poll has over 643 votes, and for some unknown reason, it reset at one point and now the dragon-based class and tinkers are tied at 3rd (and now only showing 251 total votes).

    Thread: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ed-next/775610
    Poll: https://www.strawpoll.me/42279947/r

    So obviously, the potential popularity of a Bard class is present.
    I wouldn't consider that poll to be very indicative of anything. There was only 250 votes in that poll. We've had larger polls here on MMOC where the Bard has consistently polled far worse;

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...should-be-next

    457 votes.


    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...W-class-in-9-0

    1201 votes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Directionalk9 View Post
    As it should. A few years ago I had a fan-concept in this vain swirling in my head, it was remarkably similar to what we have with soulbinds and covenants.

    Personally the WoW’s dragon lore feels too robust to smash into a singular class.
    Well like I said, I could definitely see a "Dragonsworn" concept be pushed in that direction instead of an actual class. Unfortunate, but it would make sense because there's no "definitive" draconic abilities like there are Death Knight, Demon Hunter, and Brewmaster abilities.

  8. #2428
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    This is really exciting to see! The Bard is a staple archetype that deserves to be in WoW. I'll also have you know, I'm ALMOST* finished with my Bard concept!
    I'm anxious to see it! What specs are you giving it? DPS/DPS/Healer, or...?

    You'll be surprised to know then that in a recent poll on the main forums, when asked which class people would most like to become playable, Bards placed second with Necromancers being #1, a Dragon-based class being #3, and Tinkers being #4. The poll has over 643 votes, and for some unknown reason, it reset at one point and now the dragon-based class and tinkers are tied at 3rd (and now only showing 251 total votes).

    Thread: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ed-next/775610
    Poll: https://www.strawpoll.me/42279947/r

    So obviously, the potential popularity of a Bard class is present.
    You bet I'm bookmarking that thread and poll for when a certain someone mentions about the popularity of a certain class concept...

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I wouldn't consider that poll to be very indicative of anything. There was only 250 votes in that poll. We've had larger polls here on MMOC where the Bard has consistently polled far worse;

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...should-be-next

    457 votes.


    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...W-class-in-9-0

    1201 votes.
    So you're saying that a poll in a fan forum website is more reliable and more indicative of what the players want than a poll posted in the official forums? Is that it?
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2021-01-05 at 02:50 PM.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  9. #2429
    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    This is really exciting to see! The Bard is a staple archetype that deserves to be in WoW. I'll also have you know, I'm ALMOST* finished with my Bard concept!



    You'll be surprised to know then that in a recent poll on the main forums, when asked which class people would most like to become playable, Bards placed second with Necromancers being #1, a Dragon-based class being #3, and Tinkers being #4. The poll has over 643 votes, and for some unknown reason, it reset at one point and now the dragon-based class and tinkers are tied at 3rd (and now only showing 251 total votes).

    Thread: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ed-next/775610
    Poll: https://www.strawpoll.me/42279947/r

    So obviously, the potential popularity of a Bard class is present.
    I would never contend that Bards aren't popular. I just believe that their implementation in WoW would be a corrupted wish.

    It's like playable High Elves. Technically, we got them in Void Elves... but is that wish truly fulfilled if you only fulfill it on a technicality?

    Technically, any music-themed class could be a Bard. But is it truly a Bard?

    What, then, is the difference between a Bard and a Warrior with one of the guitars equipped?

  10. #2430
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Precisely.

    I mean, just look at Enhancement Shaman. That was the class and specialization that I was sold on when I first played the game. It was advertised as the offensive support class. It realized this concept as best as WoW could. And then its niche - its very identity - was gutted from it. What is it, now? What niche does it fill? What sets it apart from all the other classes? And if you can provide an answer to any of those questions... try again without mentioning the thematics of the class.

    Implementing a Bard is akin to starting off a class on the same shaky ground that Shaman finds itself in, with no real mechanical identity.

    It's not that I don't want Bard - it's that I enjoy the concept too much to see it disrespected in the same way that the Shaman (and to a lesser degree, Paladin) class has been over the better part of two decades.
    Enhancement Shaman is essentially a Battlemage. Always has been. The uniqueness of the Shaman class is that you can take a spell caster and give it solid melee abilities. Enhancement had frankly one of the most unique passive talents in the game. It was a talent that converted agility into intelligence and thus spell power.

    That said, the problem you guys are having with the Bard simply illustrates the importance of having abilities and lore characters already set up for these class concepts. Consider what we have for the Tinker versus the Bard for example. We know the general direction Blizzard would take the Tinker class, we have a host of abilities from WC3 and HotS to utilize for the Tinker concept, we can break the Tinker down to multiple specializations, and we can even take abilities from the Alchemist hero to add to the overall Tinker concept.

    All we have for the Bard is speculation and confusion. We have no lore hero to base the Bard's style on. We have no abilities to structure specializations around. We have absolutely no idea how Blizzard would push the Bard concept, or even if the Bard class fits in WoW's class role paradigm (heal/DPS/tank). I'm forced to agree with Triceron that a Profession would make more sense.

  11. #2431
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, that's EXACTLY what the Tinker is;

    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...3D8MQ&usqp=CAU

    That is far more advanced tech than fragmentation bombs and steel traps.
    Is it, though? This isn't an "Iron Man"-like kind of technology we're talking about here. That is literally just a steam engine in a fancy chassis.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  12. #2432
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    So you're saying that a poll in a fan forum website is more reliable and more indicative of what the players want than a poll posted in the official forums? Is that it?
    More votes = More reliable.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Is it, though? This isn't an "Iron Man"-like kind of technology we're talking about here. That is literally just a steam engine in a fancy chassis.

    Gravity weapons and lasers aren't Iron Man-like technology?

  13. #2433
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    What, then, is the difference between a Bard and a Warrior with one of the guitars equipped?
    The same difference between a demon hunter and a warrior dual-wielding warglaives.
    The same difference between a mage and a warrior wielding a staff.
    The same difference between a rogue and a warrior dual-wielding daggers.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  14. #2434
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I wouldn't consider that poll to be very indicative of anything. There was only 250 votes in that poll. We've had larger polls here on MMOC where the Bard has consistently polled far worse;

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...should-be-next

    457 votes.


    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...W-class-in-9-0

    1201 votes.
    The poll I linked actually has a lot more votes. When I had voted, a few of the choices had hundreds of votes. As I said, for some reason, it reset at one point. I think it is indicative that Bards popularity has gained momentum. The polls you linked are old and were taken during BFA. Also, if anything, it could show that Tinkers are only popular here on MMO and not on the main forums.

  15. #2435
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    More votes = More reliable.
    Quick yes/no question:

    Two polls. One done throughout the entire country of the US, the other done only in Texas. The poll in Texas has more votes than the one done all over the US. Would you say that the poll from Texas is more reliable to represent what the country wants?

    Gravity weapons and lasers aren't Iron Man-like technology?
    I'm talking about the armor you got there. Also, is it really 'high-tech' if "hobbyists" can craft and use it?
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  16. #2436
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I'm anxious to see it! What specs are you giving it? DPS/DPS/Healer, or...?
    Minstrel (Healing), Loresinger (Ranged DPS), and Magician (Ranged DPS). I wanted spec names that felt like roles, jobs, and ways a Bard can "entertain".

    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post

    Technically, any music-themed class could be a Bard. But is it truly a Bard?
    If they're providing damage, healing, and buffs through music, yes. I'd argue they're truly a Bard.

    What, then, is the difference between a Bard and a Warrior with one of the guitars equipped?
    Obviously, what they're capable of doing with said guitar. A warrior is only going to be able to bash you over the head with it, haha.
    Last edited by Amunrasonther; 2021-01-05 at 03:06 PM.

  17. #2437
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The same difference between a demon hunter and a warrior dual-wielding warglaives.
    The same difference between a mage and a warrior wielding a staff.
    The same difference between a rogue and a warrior dual-wielding daggers.
    Those classes have identities beyond their type of weapon.

    Bard does as well, but as you love to dismiss out of hand, their mechanical identity is tied up in the support role which is antithetical to WoW's trinity. So without that identity, the analogues of which all these other classes were based on... what is a Bard beyond the Music theme?

  18. #2438
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    The poll I linked actually has a lot more votes. When I had voted, a few of the choices had hundreds of votes. As I said, for some reason, it reset at one point. I think it is indicative that Bards popularity has gained momentum. The polls you linked are old and were taken during BFA. Also, if anything, it could show that Tinkers are only popular here on MMO and not on the main forums.
    Unfortunately I can only go by what you posted.

    Wouldn't those polls also be from BFA since that expansion ended only 2 months ago?

    That said, by all means, post those polls.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-01-05 at 03:15 PM.

  19. #2439
    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    Minstrel (Healing), Loresinger (Ranged DPS), and Magician (Ranged DPS). I wanted spec names that felt like roles, jobs, and ways a Bard can "entertain".



    If they're providing damage, healing, and buffs through music, yes. I'd argue they're truly a Bard.



    Obviously, what they're capable of doing with said guitar. A warrior is only going to be able to bash you over the head with it, haha.
    Honest question here - have you actually played a Bard in other games? I legitimately find it difficult to believe that someone who has enjoyed the class in other settings would be sated by "anything goes, as long as it's Music-magic"-mantra. Bards need to support, primarily. Healing, damage... those are secondary functions.

    It would be like getting a Warrior class that only heals people by throwing axes at them. Sure, it has the right look, the right theme... but the gameplay is so incongruous with the mechanical basis of the class that you would feel insulted that they call it a Warrior.

  20. #2440
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I'm talking about the armor you got there. Also, is it really 'high-tech' if "hobbyists" can craft and use it?
    You mean Mekkatorque's armor? It had advanced weaponry like Buster Laser Cannon, Gigavolt Charge, and could deploy multiple types of support robots. Not to mention had the ability to perform aerial combat.

    Again, how is that not Iron Man-style tech?

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