1. #2441
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post

    It doesn't deploy robots. They come flying on small carriers.
    Which would still be akin to Iron Man-style tech. Not steel traps and fragment bombs.

    Also, I'm waiting on your answer:
    Your example doesn't really apply to this situation.

  2. #2442
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Bards need to support, primarily.
    No. They don't. No more than priests, too.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Your example doesn't really apply to this situation.
    It does, perfectly. You're saying that a sample of a sample (which is the MMO-Champion forums) is more reliable and more representative than a sample of the entire player base (which is the official forums).

    So, answer the question. Which one is more reliable about what the WHOLE player base wants?
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  3. #2443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It does, perfectly. You're saying that a sample of a sample (which is the MMO-Champion forums) is more reliable and more representative than a sample of the entire player base (which is the official forums).

    So, answer the question. Which one is more reliable about what the WHOLE player base wants?
    Actually that's incorrect. Unlike Texas vs the US, MMOC vs WoW official forums is an open forum versus a closed form. In other words, you have current players only on the WoW forums whereas on MMOC you have current players AND potential players who have either stopped playing the game, or could potentially play the game in the future. So which group is more representative of the potential user base for a FUTURE class? ONLY current players, or current players, former players, and potential players?

    I know which I'd look at more if I were Blizzard, and it wouldn't be a poll with 251 current WoW players.

  4. #2444
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Unfortunately I can only go by what you posted.

    Wouldn't those polls also be from BFA since that expansion ended only 2 months ago?

    That said, by all means, post those polls.
    WoW main forums does not have a built in poll feature like the MMO forums, and I have no reason to lie.

    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Honest question here - have you actually played a Bard in other games? I legitimately find it difficult to believe that someone who has enjoyed the class in other settings would be sated by "anything goes, as long as it's Music-magic"-mantra. Bards need to support, primarily. Healing, damage... those are secondary functions.

    It would be like getting a Warrior class that only heals people by throwing axes at them. Sure, it has the right look, the right theme... but the gameplay is so incongruous with the mechanical basis of the class that you would feel insulted that they call it a Warrior.
    The idea that Bards sit there and strictly buff (support!!11!!) while doing nothing else is archaic and doesn't belong in WoW. Hence, if Bards were to be implemented in WoW, they'd follow the DPS/Healer/Tank format like every other class in the game.

  5. #2445
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    WoW main forums does not have a built in poll feature like the MMO forums, and I have no reason to lie.
    Never said you were. I'm simply saying that I can only go on what I'm seeing, and I'm not seeing a poll with hundreds of votes per option.

  6. #2446
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Never said you were. I'm simply saying that I can only go on what I'm seeing, and I'm not seeing a poll with hundreds of votes per option.
    The very person who made the poll in the thread mentions the poll was reset. Nevertheless, even after the reset, the existing totals mirrors the past ones. It's a smaller sample size now, lol - but still actuate.

  7. #2447
    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    The idea that Bards sit there and strictly buff (support!!11!!) while doing nothing else is archaic and doesn't belong in WoW. Hence, if Bards were to be implemented in WoW, they'd follow the DPS/Healer/Tank format like every other class in the game.
    I know they would. That's my problem.

    Personally, I would use the word "traditional" instead of "archaic." And yes, traditions should be interrogated. For my part, I believe that this is a justified tradition as that support role is what makes Bard unique - it is what sets it apart from your Wizards and Sorcerers and Clerics and Priests. If you are mocking that role, like Shaman and Paladin do, I simply believe that efforts are better placed elsewhere.

    As much as I despise Tinkers, I would much rather have them than have WoW mock the Bard - a class that I do enjoy. You can fully realize the Tinker concept (even if it is contrary to everything I enjoy about WarCraft lore, I do have to acknowledge that it is a part of it). I cannot ignore its appeal and appropriateness because it is inconvenient to my personal desires and tastes.
    Last edited by draugril; 2021-01-05 at 04:06 PM.

  8. #2448
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    The very person who made the poll in the thread mentions the poll was reset. Nevertheless, even after the reset, the existing totals mirrors the past ones. It's a smaller sample size now, lol - but still actuate.
    Okay, but again the same problem exists; I'm not seeing a poll with hundreds of votes per option. If you're telling me that Bards are extremely popular and it only has 50 votes in a poll where the average choice got 35, I simply can't agree with your conclusion. Especially when we have polls with way more votes and participation where Bards get steamrolled by other class options, and Bard proponents have a hard time explaining what exactly a Bard would do in WoW. Heck, Blizzard themselves have never supported the concept beyond a Bard NPC in the Rogue class hall and some spoof characters.

  9. #2449
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Actually that's incorrect. Unlike Texas vs the US, MMOC vs WoW official forums is an open forum versus a closed form. In other words, you have current players only on the WoW forums whereas on MMOC you have current players AND potential players who have either stopped playing the game, or could potentially play the game in the future. So which group is more representative of the potential user base for a FUTURE class? ONLY current players, or current players, former players, and potential players?
    Are you claiming that the pool of posters in MMO-Champion forums is a greater and more accurate representative of the WoW player base than the official forums themselves?
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2021-01-05 at 04:29 PM.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
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  10. #2450
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    I know they would. That's my problem.

    Personally, I would use the word "traditional" instead of "archaic." And yes, traditions should be interrogated. For my part, I believe that this is a justified tradition as that support role is what makes Bard unique - it is what sets it apart from your Wizards and Sorcerers and Clerics and Priests. If you are mocking that role, like Shaman and Paladin do, I simply believe that efforts are better placed elsewhere.

    As much as I despise Tinkers, I would much rather have them than have WoW mock the Bard - a class that I do enjoy. You can fully realize the Tinker concept (even if it is contrary to everything I enjoy about WarCraft lore, I do have to acknowledge that it is a part of it). I cannot ignore its appeal and appropriateness because it is inconvenient to my personal desires and tastes.
    So in the traditional sense, what do you want a Bard to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Okay, but again the same problem exists; I'm not seeing a poll with hundreds of votes per option. If you're telling me that Bards are extremely popular and it only has 50 votes in a poll where the average choice got 35, I simply can't agree with your conclusion. Especially when we have polls with way more votes and participation where Bards get steamrolled by other class options, and Bard proponents have a hard time explaining what exactly a Bard would do in WoW. Heck, Blizzard themselves have never supported the concept beyond a Bard NPC in the Rogue class hall and some spoof characters.
    I'm not telling you Bards are extremely popular. I'm saying it's possible their popularity is growing. And now with the recent NPCs, it seems Blizzard is laying the foundations for a music based class.

  11. #2451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If you're telling me that Bards are extremely popular and it only has 50 votes in a poll where the average choice got 35, I simply can't agree with your conclusion.
    He did not say they're "extremely popular". This is just you misrepresenting what people post.
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  12. #2452
    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    So in the traditional sense, what do you want a Bard to do?
    What they've done traditionally.

    Inspire their allies to excel in the performance of their own roles. Hamper the ability of enemies to perform theirs. A Bard's DPS should come through the DPS in the group doing significantly more DPS owing to the presence of a Bard - "significant" meaning at least enough DPS to make up for the lack of a DPS class in the group. Their healing should come through both increasing the potency of the healer as well. And their tanking comes through hampering the ability of the enemy to deal damage at all.

    As you note, WoW does not support this type of gameplay.

    Thus, as much as I love the Bard class, I just feel it's inappropriate for WoW, particularly when other options exist that wouldn't need to be broken down before they can fit the relatively narrow mold of WoW.

  13. #2453
    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    This is really exciting to see! The Bard is a staple archetype that deserves to be in WoW. I'll also have you know, I'm ALMOST* finished with my Bard concept!



    You'll be surprised to know then that in a recent poll on the main forums, when asked which class people would most like to become playable, Bards placed second with Necromancers being #1, a Dragon-based class being #3, and Tinkers being #4. The poll has over 643 votes, and for some unknown reason, it reset at one point and now the dragon-based class and tinkers are tied at 3rd (and now only showing 251 total votes).

    Thread: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ed-next/775610
    Poll: https://www.strawpoll.me/42279947/r

    So obviously, the potential popularity of a Bard class is present.
    Nothing I said about the Bard was about it being popular or being in demand. It is all about marketability, and the Bard concept lacks the class identity (within Warcraft) that would be able to proper push it as a featured class.

    Look at Demon Hunters. 100x cooler concept, incredibly marketable, absolutely Warcraft. That is what the Bard is missing, considering everyone who talks about a Bard _has a different vision_ of what a Bard would be. There is no unified Bard concept in WoW that people immediately identify as a Warcraft Bard outside of two concepts - ETC and the April Fools Bard. And as unpopular as Monks ended up being, they at least always had a familiar Warcraft identity through the Brewmaster.

    Bard unfortunately does not have a strong identity in WoW. It isn't what will drive hype for the majority of players in the game expecting more out of a new class option. It lacks the Warcraft identity, it lacks the Rule of Cool. If Blizzard spent time fostering a cool Bard NPC faction like the Harpers in DnD, then sure maybe we could get something out of it. The closest thing we have is the Warsong and they're pretty much far removed from any musical influence since Warcraft 2.

    I'll say that Shadowlands has definitely peppered more Bardic potential, but it's still very subtle, and it needs to be more than just instrument buffs and NPC quotes. It's definitely not something the majority of fans would be anticipating, just what the enthusiasts are wanting to see. That is the problem that Pandaria faced, and I doubt Blizzard would want to make those same mistakes again.

    - edit -

    Just want to be clear, I'm not saying this makes it impossible for Bards to be playable or anything like that. I am simply illustrating the cons unique to the Bard concept. Every potential class has their strengths and weaknesses, and the Bard's lies in their lack of cohesion and roots in the Warcraft universe. What connections exist are very loose, and often used more to break the 4th wall. I don't see Blizzard ever passing up the other, stronger potential class concepts to take up a Bard. I could see a stronger case for a Bard if Blizzard slowly fostered a stronger identity, like making a cool NPC Bard faction or character that makes people really want to play as; or if they added a Bard as a part of a collection of Classes in the style of Allied Races (where Class Skins would be most ideal).
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-01-05 at 05:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  14. #2454
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    I'm not telling you Bards are extremely popular. I'm saying it's possible their popularity is growing. And now with the recent NPCs, it seems Blizzard is laying the foundations for a music based class.
    I'm sorry but I disagree. It takes more than a couple of NPCs for a class foundation to be laid. Look at the foundations of the Death Knight, Monk, and Demon Hunter classes for example. Those foundations are a heck of a lot deeper than a few NPCs and a few quotes of texts.

    Again, consider that Blizzard never even made a Bard class in the tabletop RPGs (DKs, Brewmasters, and Demon Hunters were all classes in the tabletop RPG for example). That should be a big flashing sign for anyone thinking a Bard class is on the way.

  15. #2455
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I'm sorry but I disagree. It takes more than a couple of NPCs for a class foundation to be laid. Look at the foundations of the Death Knight, Monk, and Demon Hunter classes for example.
    The entire "foundation" for the monk class was literally a NPC that was never implemented into the World of Warcraft game before MoP.
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  16. #2456
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    What they've done traditionally.

    Inspire their allies to excel in the performance of their own roles. Hamper the ability of enemies to perform theirs. A Bard's DPS should come through the DPS in the group doing significantly more DPS owing to the presence of a Bard - "significant" meaning at least enough DPS to make up for the lack of a DPS class in the group. Their healing should come through both increasing the potency of the healer as well. And their tanking comes through hampering the ability of the enemy to deal damage at all.

    As you note, WoW does not support this type of gameplay.

    Thus, as much as I love the Bard class, I just feel it's inappropriate for WoW, particularly when other options exist that wouldn't need to be broken down before they can fit the relatively narrow mold of WoW.
    There has to be a middle ground. The Bard class in WoW could be able to do everything you mentioned, but not to the point that you mentioned of it being "significant."

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I'm sorry but I disagree. It takes more than a couple of NPCs for a class foundation to be laid. Look at the foundations of the Death Knight, Monk, and Demon Hunter classes for example. Those foundations are a heck of a lot deeper than a few NPCs and a few quotes of texts.

    Again, consider that Blizzard never even made a Bard class in the tabletop RPGs (DKs, Brewmasters, and Demon Hunters were all classes in the tabletop RPG for example). That should be a big flashing sign for anyone thinking a Bard class is on the way.
    Obviously, there's a difference between the beginnings of a class foundation and THE class foundation. I think we're seeing the beginnings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Nothing I said about the Bard was about it being popular or being in demand. It is all about marketability, and the Bard concept lacks the class identity (within Warcraft) that would be able to proper push it as a featured class.

    Look at Demon Hunters. 100x cooler concept, incredibly marketable, absolutely Warcraft. That is what the Bard is missing, considering everyone who talks about a Bard _has a different vision_ of what a Bard would be. There is no unified Bard concept in WoW that people immediately identify as a Warcraft Bard outside of two concepts - ETC and the April Fools Bard. And as unpopular as Monks ended up being, they at least always had a familiar Warcraft identity through the Brewmaster.

    Bard unfortunately does not have a strong identity in WoW. It isn't what will drive hype for the majority of players in the game expecting more out of a new class option. It lacks the Warcraft identity, it lacks the Rule of Cool. If Blizzard spent time fostering a cool Bard NPC faction like the Harpers in DnD, then sure maybe we could get something out of it. The closest thing we have is the Warsong and they're pretty much far removed from any musical influence since Warcraft 2.

    I'll say that Shadowlands has definitely peppered more Bardic potential, but it's still very subtle, and it needs to be more than just instrument buffs and NPC quotes. It's definitely not something the majority of fans would be anticipating, just what the enthusiasts are wanting to see. That is the problem that Pandaria faced, and I doubt Blizzard would want to make those same mistakes again.
    I was referring to your 'cool' comment more. If there's enough demand for a class, in the eyes of the players, it's plenty cool enough. In the Bard concept that I'm currently developing, one of the specs is called Loresinger. Through music, they can conjure up illusions of major lore figures to help them fight. I think that's pretty cool.

  17. #2457
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The entire "foundation" for the monk class was literally a NPC that was never implemented into the World of Warcraft game before MoP.
    Incorrect;

    1. Pandaren Empire (WC3)
    2. Brewmaster Hero (WC3)
    3. Brewmaster Class (TTRPG)
    4. Chen Stormstout (WC3 lore hero)
    5. Brewmasters (CCG)
    6. Brewmaster trained by Chen (Vanilla)
    7. Pandren Monk Pet w/letter from Chen (WotLK)

    What do we have from Bards again?

  18. #2458
    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    I was referring to your 'cool' comment more. If there's enough demand for a class, in the eyes of the players, it's plenty cool enough. In the Bard concept that I'm currently developing, one of the specs is called Loresinger. Through music, they can conjure up illusions of major lore figures to help them fight. I think that's pretty cool.
    I'm sorry but your example was a poll with 53 votes for Bard.

    I hardly consider that to be a tangible 'enough demand for a class'.

    If you asked any of your casual WoW playing friends what they think the next WoW class would be, how often would Bard be *immediately* mentioned off the top of their head? That's the sort of permeation I'm talking about.


    Forums are always going to be the vocal outlet of the enthusiast. Blizzard doesn't design WoW towards the enthusiast, they design WoW for the mainstream. This isn't the days of Warcraft 3 where some in-joke can be made reality as long as it's popular enough; the majority of the player base of the RTS WAS the enthusiast so those decisions made sense. We've seen now that the opposite is true considering Blizzard has banked on pleasing enthusiasts (major focus on end-game hardcore Raiding) and it bit them in the ass. The game has to be accessible, the game has to be marketable. What Bards lack is the marketability. They're not on the tip of everyone's tongue when people think of a new class; they're always considered but not as tangibly as other Class Concepts that are yet to be in the game.

    Something would have to change *before* a Bard could plausibly be considered, otherwise Blizzard is going to be looking at repeating the same mistakes of announcing Diablo Immortal when everyone and their mom is expecting Diablo 4 and Diablo 2 Remaster.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-01-05 at 05:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  19. #2459
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amunrasonther View Post
    Obviously, there's a difference between the beginnings of a class foundation and THE class foundation. I think we're seeing the beginnings.
    You said there were Bard NPCs. What NPCs in particular were you talking about?

    The first thing the Bard concept needs is a hero with unique abilities. Frankly without that, you're not even seeing the beginning of a foundation.

  20. #2460
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Incorrect;

    1. Pandaren Empire (WC3)
    2. Brewmaster Hero (WC3)
    3. Brewmaster Class (TTRPG)
    4. Chen Stormstout (WC3 lore hero)
    5. Brewmasters (CCG)
    6. Brewmaster trained by Chen (Vanilla)
    7. Pandren Monk Pet w/letter from Chen (WotLK)

    What do we have from Bards again?
    #1 is just an April Fools' joke that was never realized into canonicity until MoP.

    #2 and #4 are just one and the same.

    #3 and #5 are dismissed outright for not being canon to WoW. We're talking about the foundations of the class in WoW.

    #6 is not a monk, just literally a cook that knows how to make beers. By that reasoning, everyone who takes the cooking profession is a monk.

    #7 If you're going to say pets work as foundations of classes, you'll have to also accept we have the foundation of a space marine class, then.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

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