If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[Triceron]

The Bard is a common archetype in fantasy games and culture. You're underestimating their appeal.

Please read my post instead of arguing against your own strawman argument.

Nothing I said refers to appeal. It would do well for you to understand a difference between Expectation and Appeal.

Diablo Immortal did not get backlash because its appeal was underestimated. It got backlash because it did not address the expectations of what fans wanted out of a new Diablo announcement. The Bard is in that position right now when compared to other potential class concepts; it can be strong on its own but it's also a completely outside general fan expectations. There was no enthusiast or mainstream demand for a mobile Diablo game, even if the idea of a mobile Diablo game is very appealing to mobile gamers and overseas markets alike. That idea has to permeate the audience *before* they present it.

There aren't any major Bard NPCs in the game, there aren't any notable Heroes the Bard could be based off of, there's no notable faction representing Music whatsoever. Right now we only have B and C-tier examples of any Bard-like character, and Blizzard would need to elevate or push out a cohesive, (potential) A-tier concept before we can tangibly talk about Bards in Warcraft.

[Teriz]

We're talking about lore. Besides, what... 2 class spells? (which don't even mention music in their description), and some NPC spells, there's nothing in Lore to my knowledge that explains what music could be capable of doing....until now. That's the beginning of a foundation.

I'm talking about NPC musical magic. We know that there is music being utilized as magic in WoW. Hymn abilities in Shadowlands, and the Sound based abilities of the Mantid being such examples.

What we need now is a lore hero to tie it together and show us how a hero would use music in a class. Until we have that, we frankly have nothing but some disparate spells that can frankly be given to multiple existing classes.

[Amunrasonther]

Please read my post instead of arguing against your own strawman argument.

Nothing I said refers to appeal. It would do well for you to understand a difference between Expectation and Appeal.

Diablo Immortal did not get backlash because its appeal was underestimated. It got backlash because it did not address the expectations of what fans wanted out of a new Diablo announcement. The Bard is in that position right now when compared to other potential class concepts; it can be strong on its own but it's also a completely outside general fan expectations.

There aren't any major Bard NPCs in the game, there aren't any notable Heroes the Bard could be based off of, there's no notable faction representing Music whatsoever. Right now we only have B and C-tier examples of any Bard-like character, and Blizzard would need to elevate or push out a cohesive, (potential) A-tier concept before we can tangibly talk about Bards in Warcraft.

You mentioned marketability - is that not related to appeal? In order for something to be marketable, it has to have appeal. You said "They're not on the tip of everyone's tongue when people think of a new class", and yet they're brought up pretty much anytime someone talks about future classes.

I'm talking about NPC musical magic. We know that there is music being utilized as magic in WoW. Hymn abilities in Shadowlands, and the Sound based abilities of the Mantid being such examples.

What we need now is a lore hero to tie it together and show us how a hero would use music in a class. Until we have that, we frankly have nothing but some disparate spells that can frankly be given to multiple existing classes.

We know there exists music spells in game by unimportant NPCs. What I was talking about, is music spells in lore. Until now, there was nothing about music in lore at least to my knowledge.

[Sagenod]

Different thread:
https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...20-Class-skins



Right...and i'm the queen of England.

As for your question: "why add a Bard class?"
Simple - it fills a roleplaying aspect that is missing from the game. Music and sound has not been, massively, represented in game, and is lacking a representative, just like your precious Tinker.

One could wonder, how does a music playing class can be taken seriously, as a fully functioning class. To that i say, look at the Priest. In life, Priests aren't much of a combatant profession yet, they have managed to make it a functional combative class.



I agree that they could be specializations, rather than fully-fledged classes.

If you're interested in the Witch Doctor - check out my Shadow Hunter class concept, a few pages ago.

Lol yes there have been class skin threads. I said "people don't discuss class skins anymore..." because we don't see new threads regarding the topic. Yet this new class thread has 124 pages, and counting, of argumentative drivel.

[Teriz]

We know there exists music spells in game by unimportant NPCs. What I was talking about, is music spells in lore. Until now, there was nothing about music in lore at least to my knowledge.

Well there was the Warsong clan, and Murmur, so I would say yes.

As I said, the issue is that Blizzard has never seriously pushed the Bard as a hero/class concept in its entire history. Not in its multiple RTS games, not in its TTRPGs, not even in WoW itself. The most they ever did was ETC, and the Bard April Fool's that had a character spoofing Guitar Hero, and clearly neither was meant to be a serious contender for a class concept.

[Triceron]

You mentioned marketability - is that not related to appeal? In order for something to be marketable, it has to have appeal. You said "They're not on the tip of everyone's tongue when people think of a new class", and yet they're brought up pretty much anytime someone talks about future classes.

Marketability in terms of familiarity to the Warcraft universe. What do people know about Bards in Warcraft universe?

1: They were an April Fools joke
2: They don't have any class identity in Warcraft.

Everything we know about Bards practically exists on the outside - as RPG class archetypes from other games. There's almost nothing *within* Warcraft that elevates this concept beyond easter eggs and april fools jokes. Are we talking about ETC and Loresingers, or are we talking about a Bard Class? There's quite a gap between and they're not the same thing, if you understand what I am saying.

Death Knights and Demon Hunters are examples of very marketable concepts. Warcraft has established these identities very clearly. Druids and Paladins, Hunters and Mages; these are concepts absolutely familiar to the Warcraft brand. Druid didn't even exist until Warcraft 3, yet it's identity is *very* clear. So even if a concept hasn't existed yet, it could be built up to be strong *IF* Blizzard did it. Monks are less so, but even then they have roots from the Pandaren Brewmaster of WC3 and has established it as a playable concept; but as I'm illustrating the lack of a clear identity beyond Brewmasters is also what makes Monks have fairly low appeal.

With the Bard, we have very little to go on. A concept like a Runemaster or Dragonsworn does not exist in lore, but they still have familiarity to the Warcraft brand through the Pen and Paper RPG concepts or characters like Alexstrasza and Chromie in Heroes of the Storm. There is identity potential in those being built up. With the Bard, there has not been any outstanding concepts of a Bard Class. Even ETC in Heroes of the Storm is a *Warrior* with musical themed abilities, not an actual Bard Class with DPS and Heal spec. And characters like Lucio, while very cool gameplaywise, does not translate into Warcraft or WoW gameplay whatsoever, in Character, Theme and Gameplay. He is a DJ on Skates, how do we explain a WoW Bard Class based on Lucio? There is no cohesion between the concepts.

Blizzard hasn't done anything mainstream (in Warcraft) with music themed characters or factions. ETC and Bard April Fools are the exceptions to the rule. Shadowlands is *starting* to build on it, but it's just a tiny drop in the bucket that isn't getting people talking (only exciting the enthusiasts). It's not a concept that will be welcomed with open arms by the mainstream; it's a concept that the enthusiasts will place on a pedestal while the majority of people will be left scratching their heads wondering why Bards were picked over *Insert class people were expecting instead*.

[Teriz]

However with the Bard, we have very little to go on. Unlike a concept like a Runemaster or Dragonsworn which did not exist in lore, they still have familiarity to the Warcraft brand through the Pen and Paper RPG concepts or characters like Alexstrasza and Chromie in Heroes of the Storm; there is identity potential in those being built up. With the Bard, there has not been any fan-favourite concepts of the Bard. Even ETC in Heroes of the Storm is a *Warrior* with musical themed abilities, not an actual Bard Class with DPS and Heal spec. And characters like Lucio, while very cool gameplaywise, does not translate into WoW gameplay whatsoever, in Character, Theme and Gameplay.

Just to piggy-back off of this, Wrathion, Yrel, and Anduin are very good examples of how to create a strong lore character in modern WoW. So it is well within Blizzard's capability to develop new hero characters even this late in WoW's life cycle.

BTW, I'll never understand why they put Deathwing in HotS over Wrathion. Wrathion furthering what we've seen out of Chromie and Alexstraza would have been amazing.

[Traveler Voltin]

ill answer

they are a medieval support style archetype that fits a sword and sorcery style game unlike steam punk midgets in zords

maybe in other media.
Warcraft not really. I never seen a true bard in warcraft and since WC2 it always leaned on a little steam punk.

[Triceron]

BTW, I'll never understand why they put Deathwing in HotS over Wrathion. Wrathion furthering what we've seen out of Chromie and Alexstraza would have been amazing.

Deathwing is actually what the Heroes of the Storm community asked for directly. To be honest, most of the requests are more geared towards Warcraft RTS characters more than new WoW characters. I think out of all the WC characters in Heroes of the Storm, there's maybe 7 directly from WoW; Murky, Garrosh, Varian, Yrel, Alexstrazsa, Chromie and Hogger. The rest are either variations of WC2/3 units and heroes, or characters that also have a place in the RTS lore (like Greymane, Gul'dan, Medivh). Even Greymane isn't very strongly connected to his WoW incarnation, he plays off more like a 'what if Greymane was in the RTS games' type of design.

[Amunrasonther]

Well there was the Warsong clan, and Murmur, so I would say yes.

The Warsong clan used music in war as a form of intimidation. Perhaps to hype them up as well. Not as magic. And what connection does Murmur currently have with musical magic? There's definitely a potential of tying in Murmur and the element of sound with music magic, but at the moment, it doesn't exist.

Blizzard hasn't done anything mainstream (in Warcraft) with music themed characters or factions the past 20+ years since WC2 Warsong clan. ETC and Bard April Fools are the exceptions to the rule. Shadowlands is *starting* to build on it, but it's just a tiny drop in the bucket that isn't getting people talking (only exciting the enthusiasts). It's not a concept that will be welcomed with open arms by the mainstream; it's a concept that the enthusiasts will place on a pedestal while the rest of us will be left scratching our heads wondering why Bards were picked over *Insert class people were expecting instead*.

I agree its a drop in the bucket, which is what I was telling @Teriz that I see it as a beginnings of a foundation - not of a hero, but just music magic in lore itself.

[Unbelievable]

Yeah, that's EXACTLY what the Tinker is;



That is far more advanced tech than fragmentation bombs and steel traps.



As shown, there's a vast difference between a mech suit with lasers, robots, gravity weapons, etc. and medieval gadgets and primitive explosive devices.

Jesus christ... there's no getting rid of you.

Futuristic would mean in the sense of Science Fiction movies. These technologies are romanticised technologies of the 'mad scientist' archetype (Goggles, Gears, Steam, Electricity and more).

You, also, keep forgetting that the Goblin style of Tinkering is, exactly, that - junky and explosive.

No, it's not. It's on the same level of Engineering that Goblin and Gnome Hunters, probably, employ.

What, then, is the difference between a Bard and a Warrior with one of the guitars equipped?

Music and sound based abilities.

Enhancement Shaman is essentially a Battlemage. Always has been. The uniqueness of the Shaman class is that you can take a spell caster and give it solid melee abilities. Enhancement had frankly one of the most unique passive talents in the game. It was a talent that converted agility into intelligence and thus spell power.

What? Battle Mages are mages being able to use melee (which, in lore Kael'thas has, already, shown to be able to, with Felo'melorn and Archmages wielding Swords). Enhancement Shamans are based on the Shaman and Far Seer units.

Which would still be akin to Iron Man-style tech. Not steel traps and fragment bombs.

Iron Man uses Nano-Tech. I, really, hope you're not looking to play as Iron Man in WoW. The Tinker should be romanticised Inventor, not futuristic one.

[Teriz]

The Warsong clan used music in war as a form of intimidation. Perhaps to hype them up as well. Not as magic. And what connection does Murmur currently have with musical magic? There's definitely a potential of tying in Murmur and the element of sound with music magic, but at the moment, it doesn't exist.



I agree its a drop in the bucket, which is what I was telling @Teriz that I see it as a beginnings of a foundation - not of a hero, but just music magic in lore itself.

I think Blizzard actually introduces the hero alongside the source of concept. I don't believe that they create the source of concept, and then the hero. Thrall for example was created alongside WC Shamanistic magic. Malfurion was created alongside Druidic magic. Chen was created alongside the Brewmaster. Illidan was created alongside Demon Hunters.

- - - Updated - - -

Jesus christ... there's no getting rid of you.

Futuristic would mean in the sense of Science Fiction movies. These technologies are romanticised technologies of the 'mad scientist' archetype (Goggles, Gears, Steam, Electricity and more).

I'm unaware of humanity in our modern day of tech being able to create giant mecha suits capable of firing lasers, performing aerial combat, and commanding robotic drones to fight for them. I would consider 21st century human tech to be leaps and bounds beyond medieval tech. Wouldn't you?

You, also, keep forgetting that the Goblin style of Tinkering is, exactly, that - junky and explosive.

Blackfuse's tech wasn't junky or explosive (unless he wanted it to be). He was also capable of reverse engineering Titan and Legion tech. So I think you're over-generalizing Goblin style tinkering.

No, it's not. It's on the same level of Engineering that Goblin and Gnome Hunters, probably, employ.

Really? Then show me where Gnome and Goblin Hunters are using lasers, mech suits, gravity bombs, and energy weapons. I can't find it on the ability lists.

What? Battle Mages are mages being able to use melee (which, in lore Kael'thas has, already, shown to be able to, with Felo'melorn and Archmages wielding Swords). Enhancement Shamans are based on the Shaman and Far Seer units.

I'm talking about playable classes, not lore nonsense we don't have access to. Enhancement Shaman are Battle mages, as are DKs.

Iron Man uses Nano-Tech. I, really, hope you're not looking to play as Iron Man in WoW. The Tinker should be romanticised Inventor, not futuristic one.

Iron Man uses nano-tech in 2 Avengers movies. Before that he didn't use nano-tech. Further if we look at the actual Tinker abilities and concept (both WC3 and HotS) it is highly futuristic for the otherwise medieval setting.

Put a Gnome or Goblin into a mech suit like this;



Give them abilities like Buster Cannon, Deth Lazor, Grav-O Bomb, Gigavolt Charge, Xplodium Charge, etc.

I would even give them a few aerial abilities like dropping bombs/firing lasers from the sky.

Iron Man would be the closest equivalent.

[Traveler Voltin]

first iron man suit was basically junker tech since it was made from scraps.

nano tech was only used in 2 movies. infinity war and endgame. i am not sure about the comics.

iron man was all over the place tech wise. also Iron man is more of tech suit and less battle mech.

[Teriz]

first iron man suit was basically junker tech since it was made from scraps.

nano tech was only used in 2 movies. infinity war and endgame. i am not sure about the comics.

iron man was all over the place tech wise. also Iron man is more of tech suit and less battle mech.

The Warmonger suit from Iron Man 1 is more in line with the Goblin/Gnome mechs;

[Ielenia]

1. Chen assisted Rexxar in the founding of Durator, a major event where Jaina's father died. That was always canon.

I already said I accept the canonicity of Chen. But that does not mean that Chen Stormstout was a monk way back in the early 2000's.

2 & 4. Incorrect, the Brewmaster hero established what the Brewmaster could DO, and later those abilities established what the Monk class could do.

Again, I already said I accepted the canonicity of Chen. But that does not mean that Chen Stormstout was a monk way back in the early 2000's. I simply pointed out your points #2 and #4 were one and the same.

3 & 5 being canon is irrelevant.

It is very relevant. What is not canon is simply that: not canon to the lore, therefore shouldn't be considered as relevant.

If you don't think Blizzard used this for the creation of the Monk class, you're fooling yourself.

If you think Blizzard used that art for the creation of the monk class, you're fooling yourself. You see how easily I can turn your argument against you? Because we don't know. It could be completely independent.

6: The cook said he was trained by Chen himself, establishing Stormstout in WoW (which was completely unnecessary).

Again: I already said I accepted the canonicity of Chen. But that does not mean that Chen Stormstout was a monk way back in the early 2000's.

7: That only works if the Space Marine hero has all of the above things I mentioned.

No, it doesn't. You cannot eat your cake and still have it. Either all pets work as part of a "class foundation", or none do. You can't cherry-pick.

[draugril]

Music and sound based abilities.

Add a musical sound effect to the guitar. What's the difference then?

What is a Bard beyond the musical theme?

- - - Updated - - -

The Warsong clan used music in war as a form of intimidation. Perhaps to hype them up as well. Not as magic. And what connection does Murmur currently have with musical magic? There's definitely a potential of tying in Murmur and the element of sound with music magic, but at the moment, it doesn't exist.



I agree its a drop in the bucket, which is what I was telling @Teriz that I see it as a beginnings of a foundation - not of a hero, but just music magic in lore itself.

Honestly, I find "music inspires allies because it's music" a lot more intriguing than "music inspires allies because it's magic." It really dilutes what makes Bards unique if their key driver is just another brand of magic.

[Teriz]

I already said I accept the canonicity of Chen. But that does not mean that Chen Stormstout was a monk way back in the early 2000's.


Again, I already said I accepted the canonicity of Chen. But that does not mean that Chen Stormstout was a monk way back in the early 2000's. I simply pointed out your points #2 and #4 were one and the same.


It is very relevant. What is not canon is simply that: not canon to the lore, therefore shouldn't be considered as relevant.


If you think Blizzard used that art for the creation of the monk class, you're fooling yourself. You see how easily I can turn your argument against you? Because we don't know. It could be completely independent.


Again: I already said I accepted the canonicity of Chen. But that does not mean that Chen Stormstout was a monk way back in the early 2000's.


No, it doesn't. You cannot eat your cake and still have it. Either all pets work as part of a "class foundation", or none do. You can't cherry-pick.

We're not talking about lore. We're talking about how Blizzard clearly took the concept of Pandaria, Chen Stormstout, and the Pandaren Brewmaster and created the Monk class from it.

[Triceron]

I already said I accept the canonicity of Chen. But that does not mean that Chen Stormstout was a monk way back in the early 2000's.

It doesn't really matter what he was back in the early 2000's. People wanted playable Pandaren, people wanted playable Brewmasters. The Monk is just an extension of that.

The Monk class was formulated around the Brewmaster concept. Its entire theme owes homage to this, and it expands on it into other aspects and subthemes such as Tea brews, Mistweaving, August Celestials and Chi. Overall it's still packaged back into one unified concept.

Same if we consider Shamans and how Totems are now associated to them, it doesn't matter if it wasn't directly tied to it in Warcraft 3, what matters is that it's tied there now and has a retroactive association to all Shaman lore. Or DK's being able to use Frost, it doesn't matter if Arthas wasn't using it back in Warcraft 3, the lore we have now is retroactively applied and we know that Frost is a part of the core DK identity even if it isn't explicit.

Chen is a Monk because Blizzard deemed all Brewmasters a part of the greater Monk class. It effectively doesn't retcon any previous history, it's expanding lore that we didn't know before, much like how Kalimdor and Night Elves existed in the world before we were aware. It is a part of it's history now, because Mist of Pandaria explained it to be so. Mists lore says the Pandarens developed Martial Arts techniques to defeat the Mogu, those techniques were honed and perfected through by the Pandaren Monks, and Chen is a Brewmaster; a specialized type of Monk. That's the canon that was created for the Monk class.

There are Brewmasters in the world unrelated to the Monks, like the Dark Irons or Ogre NPCs; but that's not what Chen Stormstout is. Chen is a Pandaren Brewmaster, and directly tied to the Pandaren Monk class.

[Unbelievable]

I'm unaware of humanity in our modern day of tech being able to create giant mecha suits capable of firing lasers, performing aerial combat, and commanding robotic drones to fight for them. I would consider 21st century human tech to be leaps and bounds beyond medieval tech. Wouldn't you?



Blackfuse's tech wasn't junky or explosive (unless he wanted it to be). He was also capable of reverse engineering Titan and Legion tech. So I think you're over-generalizing Goblin style tinkering.



Really? Then show me where Gnome and Goblin Hunters are using lasers, mech suits, gravity bombs, and energy weapons. I can't find it on the ability lists.



I'm talking about playable classes, not lore nonsense we don't have access to. Enhancement Shaman are Battle mages, as are DKs.



Iron Man uses nano-tech in 2 Avengers movies. Before that he didn't use nano-tech. Further if we look at the actual Tinker abilities and concept (both WC3 and HotS) it is highly futuristic for the otherwise medieval setting.

Put a Gnome or Goblin into a mech suit like this;



Give them abilities like Buster Cannon, Deth Lazor, Grav-O Bomb, Gigavolt Charge, Xplodium Charge, etc.

I would even give them a few aerial abilities like dropping bombs/firing lasers from the sky.

Iron Man would be the closest equivalent.

Romanticised 19th century (industrial revolution) technology:






Not this Power Ranger, Iron Man, Transformers bullshit of yours:




"Tinker or tinkerer is an archaic term for an itinerant tinsmith who mends household utensils."

Some modern-day nomads with an English, an Irish or a Scottish influence call themselves "techno-tinkers" or "technogypsies" in a revival of sorts of the romantic view of the tinker's lifestyle."

"Goblins enjoy instant gratification. They work on an invention until it sort of, kind of functions, then they move on to another one. They get a thrill when they finish something, even if "finishing" means that it works properly one out of ten times.

Goblin tinkers also have a penchant for destructive devices. They like blowing things up and tearing them down. Thus, goblins make rockets, bombs, shredders, flamethrowers and similar devices. Even their creations that aren't directly related to warfare and flagrant environmental abuse have a tendency to explode terrifically when they malfunction."

That's what characterizes the iconic Goblin Engineering.

Gravimetric Scrambler Cannon
Item Level 120
Binds when used
Use: Destabilizes gravity around a target location, hindering nearby enemies' movement for 10 sec, launching them in random directions, or throwing them up in the air.

G.M.O.D.
Binds when picked up
Unique
Mount
Use: Teaches you how to summon this mount.

Zapmaster 9000 — Zaps the enemy with an arcane bolt (Gnomeregan Tinkerer).

Surge of the Stormgod(1 rank)
Hunter artifact trait
When you use Multi-Shot, Titanstrike has a chance to discharge an electric current at your pets' locations, causing an explosion of electricity that deals (Ranged attack power * 2) Nature damage to all nearby enemies.

lore nonsense? lore is what defines a Battle Mage, not your generalisation of it.

You can see the steam pipes, Cogwheels, screws and bolts on that mech suit. You're not communicating with a computer and you're not on the technology level of a spaceship. That's why flying mounts look like this:


and not like this:

Add a musical sound effect to the guitar. What's the difference then?

What is a Bard beyond the musical theme?

What, when you bash someone's head with it? I don't think that's gonna heal or buff much...

That's the whole idea of a bard. Music and sound. What more do you need?

[draugril]

What, when you bash someone's head with it? I don't think that's gonna heal or buff much...

That's the whole idea of a bard. Music and sound. What more do you need?

A unique gameplay experience that can only be provided by the implementation of a new class.