1. #2621
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    18,674
    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable View Post
    Listen. you can't apply real-life physics here because that would make the Hunter extremely underpowered compared to the Tinker. Shooting arrows or bullets? underpowered to a Tinker's explosives. sending your pet? underpowered against a Tinker's explosives. using traps and fighting with a spear? underpowered against a Tinker's explosives. using explosives? underpowered against the Tinker's explosives (according to you). The Hunter would have disadvantages in all aspects against the Tinker. That would cause balance issues and make the Hunter uncompetitive against other classes. The good thing is, this is a game. Therefore, the Hunter can compete with other classes, like the Mage or the Death Knight, because real-life power relations don't apply here. I'll give you an example:
    In lore, Fel is stronger than Arcane. You can see it in the case of Sargeras vs the Pantheon and when Illidan fights the demonic invasion as a sorcerer. The thing is, it isn't applied in game, because, otherwise, the Mage wouldn't be able to compete against the Warlock and the Demon Hunter.
    Yeah you're missing the point (again). The point is that the majority of the Hunter's damage comes from arrows/bullets, and animal attacks. In the case of survival the majority of the damage comes from coordinated attacks with the pet and swings of their melee weapons. Explosives make up a smaller portion of their overall damage.

    A Tinker on the other hand would probably have the majority of damage coming from explosives.

    The most popular allied race, according to what?


    And what, exactly, is limiting, size-wise, about a claw pack?
    If a character is large, that means the claw pack would also be large. Look at the pack in comparison to a Goblin;



    Now imagine something like that with a Draenei.

    The music and sound theme no class has in game, maybe?
    Warriors have shouts, Priests have Hymns and Words, multiple classes have sound-based buffs and abilities (Horn of Winter, Song of Chi ji, Bloody Screech, etc.). I mean you could combine all of that into one class, but what exactly would it do that's different than an existing class? Would is sing a song and shoot a fireball? That's no different than a mage saying an incantation and shooting a fireball.

    That's like asking how would a Tinker's explosives be any different to a Hunter's explsives.
    I've already explained that though; A Tinker is launching explosives from a mech. The Hunter is mainly tossing a small explosive with their hands, or shooting it from a musket or a bow and arrow.

    You mean like how the Dragonsworn has no Hero
    Wrathion.

    no lore outside the RPG
    We have examples of Dragons using mortal disguises.

    and the abilities are drawn from Heroes of the Storm's dragon aspects, like how a Bard would take inspiration from E.T.C and Lucio?
    Except Chromie, Deathwing, and Alexstraza are all from Warcraft and not joke characters. Lucio is from Overwatch, and the ETC is a massive joke character. Literally the Warrior healing with axes that @draugril was talking about.

    Heal (as in the case of Divine Hymn or Holy Word: Salvation or Holy Word: Serenity)
    Buff (as in the case of Power Word: Fortitude)
    Shield (as in the case of Power Word: Barrier or Power Word: Shield or Holy Word: Concentration)
    Crowd Control - fear (Psychic Scream), stun/incapacitate (Holy Word: Chastise), charm (Dominate Mind), mind control (Mind Control), Interrupt/silence (Silence).
    Damage - as in the case of Shadow Word: Pain or Shadow Word: Death or Power Word: Solace.
    Sounds like a Priest to me.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-01-09 at 01:31 PM.

  2. #2622
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    16,078
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    What's special about them? They were in demand enough to be featured and help boost sales of WoW.
    I know demon hunters were in demand, but... was the monk class ever in demand? I don't remember ever seeing the class even show up on potential class polls.

    Where does Bard fit into this. Would a Holy Trinity based Bard class that doesn't really have a Support role fulfill a demand and move sales? Highly doubtful. Bards aren't considered a significant part of the Warcraft universe.
    That's the same case of the monk class. Monks (the asian style the class is based on) was never considered a "significant part of the Warcraft universe", or even "a part" of it.

    I'm not looking for examples of how it would work when the problem is how the entire premise completely misses the point of a Bard class.
    It doesn't. The bard fantasy is a traveling minstrel, jack-of-all-trades spellcaster who can affect allies and foes alike with the magic of their songs.

    That you think it works would be the same as someone who thinks Warlock 4th spec would be fine to represent DH.
    No. No, it's not. Because putting a class concept as just a single extra spec for an already existing class completely nullifies the idea of the fantasy. Using your example, warlocks are not a dual-wielding melee class and night elves can't be warlocks. On top of that, all NPCs lines and quest texts that address you by your class would call you "warlock" instead of "demon hunter", further nullifying the fantasy.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  3. #2623
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah you're missing the point (again). The point is that the majority of the Hunter's damage comes from arrows/bullets, and animal attacks. In the case of survival the majority of the damage comes from coordinated attacks with the pet and swings of their melee weapons. Explosives make up a smaller portion of their overall damage.

    A Tinker on the other hand would probably have the majority of damage coming from explosives.







    If a character is large, that means the claw pack would also be large. Look at the pack in comparison to a Goblin;



    Now imagine something like that with a Draenei.



    Warriors have shouts, Priests have Hymns and Words, multiple classes have sound-based buffs and abilities (Horn of Winter, Song of Chi ji, Bloody Screech, etc.). I mean you could combine all of that into one class, but what exactly would it do that's different than an existing class? Would is sing a song and shoot a fireball? That's no different than a mage saying an incantation and shooting a fireball.



    I've already explained that though; A Tinker is launching explosives from a mech. The Hunter is mainly tossing a small explosive with their hands, or shooting it from a musket or a bow and arrow.



    Wrathion.



    We have examples of Dragons using mortal disguises.



    Except Chromie, Deathwing, and Alexstraza are all from Warcraft and not joke characters. Lucio is from Overwatch, and the ETC is a massive joke character. Literally the Warrior healing with axes that @draugril was talking about.



    Sounds like a Priest to me.
    The amount of explosive abilities is not relevant to the discussion we had.

    And, that graph is from when and where?

    You forget Tauren and mounts.

    Why would a Bard shoot fireballs?
    It's using instruments.

    And, unlike a spellcaster, a Bard's "magic" would be from an instrument.

    Warthion is no Dragonsworn. He is a dragon.

    Dragons using mortal disguises isn't a dragonsworn. A dragonsworn is a mortal who swears allegiance to a dragonflight and is, supposedly, given power and knowledge.

    I didn't mean directly copy their abilities. Just inspiration on how a Bard class would, probably, play out like.

    Words and mind manipulation is no music (or, hardly, sound). Your attempt at diminishing the class to, simply, a priest is a known tactic of yours and it does not work.

    Clearly, you are unaware of thematic overlap between classes and what a Bard, actually, is (I'll let you in on a secret - it is no Priest).
    Last edited by Unbelievable; 2021-01-09 at 06:00 PM.

  4. #2624
    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable View Post
    Sound can:
    Heal (as in the case of Divine Hymn)
    Buff (as in the case of the Bard being a support class)
    Shield (if it can produce some kind of a sound barrier)
    Crowd Control - fear (creepy sounds), stun/incapacitate (loud sounds), charm (enchanting music), snare (sound waves), mind control (the piper of hameline), Interrupt/silence (loud sounds/sound waves).
    Damage - as in the case of Murmur's abilities.

    What else do you want?
    A cohesive class identity that properly represents a Bard class, which none of these disconnected ideas satisfy.

    Consider that I could list out a dozen ways that Warlocks can become Demon Hunters through a 4th spec, and it would not properly represent a Demon Hunter. That is what I see for a Bard. The issue here is that the modern class design that WoW is based on doesn't lend itself to a Bard much more than simply being a 'Musical themed Priest'.

    Everything here is Priest gameplay with a music theme. Why not make it a Class Skin instead, which would be a much more fitting idea based on the very concepts you've listed here
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  5. #2625
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    18,674
    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable View Post
    The amount of explosive abilities is not relevant to the discussion we had.
    If one class has several explosives and another has very few and instead has mainly arrow abilities, it's clear what the focus of those classes are.

    And, that graph is from when and where?
    You can do a reverse google search and find out.

    You forget Tauren and mounts.
    Yeah, a Draenei with a claw pack (or a mech) would be larger than a tauren. Also you can't use mounts in enclosed places. A Tinker would need to be able to use the claw pack or the mech in an enclosed space.

    And, unlike a spellcaster, a Bard's "magic" would be from an instrument.
    So what's the difference between a Bard blowing a horn and buffing someone, and a Death Knight blowing a horn (Horn of Winter) and buffing someone?

    Warthion is no Dragonsworn. He is a dragon.

    Dragons using mortal disguises isn't a dragonsworn. A dragonsworn is a mortal who swears allegiance to a dragonflight and is, supposedly, given power and knowledge.
    That's the general direction we're going with though, because that's really the only way the class makes sense.

    I didn't mean directly copy their abilities. Just inspiration on how a Bard class would, probably, play out like.

    Words and mind manipulation is no music (or, hardly, sound). Your attempt at diminishing the class to, simply, a priest is a known tactic of yours and it does not work.
    Words are common Bard abilities in D&D. Here you have a class loaded with Word spells a Hymn, and a Scream. To top it off, Priests are a support class. What's the problem?

    Since we don't have a Warcraft hero to base a Bard on, it's quite possible that they purposely placed Bard concepts into the Priest class.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-01-09 at 06:59 PM.

  6. #2626
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post

    Since we don't have a Warcraft hero to base a Bard on, it's quite possible that they purposely placed Bard concepts into the Priest class.
    Right, exactly no examples of bardic/music based characters at all.. Music and sound not important to Blizzard or Warcraft. Right?

    https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Elite_Tauren_Chieftain
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Blight_Boar
    https://www.wowhead.com/npc=135538/russel-the-bard
    https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Michael_Schweitzer

    We've even been collecting ancient spiritual instruments in the Shadowlands:
    https://www.wowhead.com/item=180062/heavenly-drum
    https://www.wowhead.com/item=180064/ascended-flute
    https://www.wowhead.com/item=179977/benevolent-gong
    https://www.wowhead.com/item=179982/kyrian-bell
    https://www.wowhead.com/item=180063/unearthly-chime


    There has always been this element in WoW, but it's always been relegated to sidequests and memes.

  7. #2627
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    18,674
    Quote Originally Posted by Pawpurr View Post
    Right, exactly no examples of bardic/music based characters at all.. Music and sound not important to Blizzard or Warcraft. Right?

    https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Elite_Tauren_Chieftain
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Blight_Boar
    https://www.wowhead.com/npc=135538/russel-the-bard
    https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Michael_Schweitzer
    Those are all spoof characters. None are legitimate Warcraft heroes. If you disagree, point out a time any of those characters went on adventures with our characters.

    We've even been collecting ancient spiritual instruments in the Shadowlands:
    https://www.wowhead.com/item=180062/heavenly-drum
    https://www.wowhead.com/item=180064/ascended-flute
    https://www.wowhead.com/item=179977/benevolent-gong
    https://www.wowhead.com/item=179982/kyrian-bell
    https://www.wowhead.com/item=180063/unearthly-chime


    There has always been this element in WoW, but it's always been relegated to sidequests and memes.
    Cool, but nothing particularly noteworthy or new. You could craft musical instruments within professions since Vanilla. You should equip it to your Priest in order to become even more of a Bard.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-01-09 at 08:07 PM.

  8. #2628
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I know demon hunters were in demand, but... was the monk class ever in demand?
    Monk is the _reason_ why I am considering popularity to be a factor at all.

    I consider the class a failed experiment. It was designed with no auto-attacks, originally designed to be a 'Combo Fighter' ala Street Fighter within WoW. The idea couldn't get past alpha stage and the concept was dropped, while the rest of Monk design was already fully featured, announced and too late to drop entirely.

    There are certain classes that would FAIL a Modern Design approach, and I believe Monk would be one of them. It's commonly the least-played class in the game. The addition of B-tier classes like a No-Support Role Bard or Goblin/Gnome-only Tinker would only end up taking that position as least-played class. There's very little appeal behind these, and that's why we ended up seeing a fan-favoured pick like Demon Hunter take up the 12 spot as a Leather-wearing Dual Wield DPS (As if we really needed more?) instead of a completely new gameplay oriented class like a Tinker or a Bard.

    The only alternative I see to this is if it were added as a Class Skin, because the new themed Class Skin contributes to boosting use of *existing classes* rather than simply inserting a new class that would need its own set of loot, its own gameplay balance, its own roles in a Raid, etc etc.

    It doesn't. The bard fantasy is a traveling minstrel, jack-of-all-trades spellcaster who can affect allies and foes alike with the magic of their songs.
    So make them a Profession instead. I mentioned this pages back, that the concept and theme actually fits BETTER as a profession if we really wanted to push the fantasy. By all means, Travelling Minstersls play music *to make money*, and what better way than it be a profession?

    It could even have combat-use abilities like how Leatherworking had War Drum buffs or Alchemy and Engineering has combat-use ability. It could be a profession that contains every buff that classes have (Mark of the WIld, Fortitude, etc) so that any class can bring the utility where needed by playing music for the group/raid. I think there's plenty of potential here for it, because it runs parallel to Modern Class design.

    A Profession and (Priest) Class Skins idea would not affect Gameplay balance, does not bloat the game with extra specs, does not need any PVP consideration, and would not have to be limited to any particular Race. These are what I consider sensible to the game design, and a completely marketable feature. It all fits within the expectations of what a Bard would be within the limits of WoW's game design.

    No. No, it's not. Because putting a class concept as just a single extra spec for an already existing class completely nullifies the idea of the fantasy. Using your example, warlocks are not a dual-wielding melee class and night elves can't be warlocks. On top of that, all NPCs lines and quest texts that address you by your class would call you "warlock" instead of "demon hunter", further nullifying the fantasy.

    It is the same as this Holy Trinity Bard basically being a Music themed Priest. Look at your concept, look at Unbelievable's concept. They're practically the same, pointing at gameplay that already exists in the Priest class and simply themed with music. The only difference is you're pointing at 2 DPS specs and 1 Heal instead of 2 Heal specs and 1 DPS; is this really what people want out of a Bard class?

    Instead of *coming up* with ways to fit Bards into WoW, focus on what people *want* from the Bard class. What is the number one thing people want out of a Bard Class? It's to play as a Support Role. Not for the music theme, not for the use of Sound, not for a Music Class that fits in the Holy Trinity. People want to play as an archetypical RPG Bard that is heavily based on a Support Role.

    WoW right now is simply not designed for support. Blizzard would need add a Support Role into the Holy Trinity in order for *a New Bard Class* to fit. There are no exceptions to this for a New Bard class, designed from the ground up. Anything less should simply apply its theme as a Class Skin or a Profession. There is no one who actually *wants* a Bard that simply plays like a Priest but with a musical theme; even if you guys are making arguments for it I doubt you actually understand what you actually *want* out of this class.

    It's just as bad as the idea of a Gnome-and-Goblin only Tinker, it's just as bad as the idea of making Demon Hunters a Warlock Spec. The idea of making this happen actually HURTS the class concept and makes it LESS marketable. Just because someone is completely happy with a bad idea does not make that idea good.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-01-09 at 09:28 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  9. #2629
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    18,674
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Like I said earlier, there are certain classes that would FAIL a Modern Design approach, and I believe Monk would be one of them. It's commonly the least-played class in the game. The addition of B-tier classes like a Bard or Goblin/Gnome-only Tinker would only end up taking that position as least-played class.
    Actually according to this, the least played class is Demon Hunter;

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ters-by-class/

    And according to this, the least played class is Shaman;



    As for the Tinker, if Blizzard institutes it properly (mech-based in all specs, ranged DPS, healing spec, travel forms, etc.), there's no way it would be least played class, regardless of race restrictions.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-01-09 at 09:04 PM.

  10. #2630
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Actually according to this, the least played class is Demon Hunter;

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ters-by-class/
    2019 stats? Thats pretty old data.

    And according to this, the least played class is Shaman;
    Yes, these are more recent 2020 stats and DH is well beyond least-played class in the game. Monk is edged up right against Shamans as the least played.

    Also, generally these data stats are not indicative of max level/mains or tallying all classes at all levels.

    DH would be lower at all levels because it's a Hero class, whereas many players would have alts left at whatever level. I'm not a Monk player and I even have a Monk in around level 40's (Prior to level crunch) and never touched it since. I don't feel compelled to delete it or anything either, I just have zero interest in playing the class.

    And it has nothing to do with the theme of Monks; I main a Monk in Diablo 3 and Guild Wars 1. The archetype is best when applied to more fast-paced action and comboing abilities. Monk DPS in WoW isn't thrilling; the pace of combat overall is too slow and it's the same auto-attack, generator/spender combat system that every other Melee class uses. Monks lack the satisfying burst/combo system that Rogues and Feral have.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-01-09 at 09:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  11. #2631
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    18,674
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes, these are more recent 2020 stats and DH is well beyond least-played class in the game.
    Fair enough. However, that chart makes it fair to say that class population tends to be generated by corresponding lore with available races. For example, the most popular classes among the Night Elves are Demon Hunters, Druids, and Hunters. Corresponding with popular Night Elf characters like Illidan, Tyrande, and Malfurion, along with the general thematic of Night Elves being tied to archery and nature.

    Blood Elves are in a similar position. They have prominent DH, Paladin, Hunter (Ranger), and Mage characters. Further their faction leader is a Warrior. So it's no surprise that the most popular classes in that race are those classes.

    Humans? Yeah, they speak for themselves.

    Look at Goblins, Mechagnomes, and Gnomes though.... It's pretty much white across the spectrum.

    It would be interesting to see the population growth if you place a class that fits their racial themes.

  12. #2632
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Fair enough. However, that chart makes it fair to say that class population tends to be generated by corresponding lore with available races.
    Nope. I pointed this out back then and you can see on that chart that Blood Elf Monk is picked much more than Pandaren Monk. You can't tell me that Blood Elf Monk corresponds to lore more than Pandarens.

    Pandaren are one of the least picked races for Monk overall. Even Human and Void Elf is picked more as a Monk. So no, it's not just about corresponding lore; race popularity seems to have a massive influence as well.

    Also look at DK. Blood Elf tops the list. The more lore-savvy combination would be Forsaken DK.

    You can just look at the total race picked Bars on the right side and you'd know how skewed this system is in favour of Popular Races over any other statistic you could apply it to. The popularity of Elves and Humans is practically untouchable by any other race; hell races combined.

    I'd like to see what an updated version of this graph would look like too, since they recently added a whole bunch of new customization options for races that would likely boost some race pick numbers. High Elf options for Void Elf are a HUGE addition.


    Also, I believe that graph indicates percentage of Races playing X Class. That means anything with 1 Race choice will have full color on it whereas a class with many race options would be spread much lighter. So yeah, a Goblin/Gnome only Tinker would be full blue/red on that graph because that's all the races would be available for it; but the overall number of Tinker players would probably never reach the Monk/Shaman numbers because of the limited Race options as well.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-01-09 at 09:57 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  13. #2633
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    18,674
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Nope. I pointed this out back then and you can see on that chart that Blood Elf Monk is picked much more than Pandaren Monk. You can't tell me that Blood Elf Monk corresponds to lore more than Pandarens.

    Pandaren are one of the least picked races for Monk overall. Even Human and Void Elf is picked more as a Monk. So no, it's not just about corresponding lore; race popularity seems to have a massive influence as well.
    https://web.archive.org/web/20200812...php?class=Monk

    This is from August 2020, and the Pandaren are clearly the most picked Monk race.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Also look at DK. Blood Elf tops the list. The more lore-savvy combination would be Forsaken DK.
    You are correct about Blood Elf DKs;

    https://web.archive.org/web/20200812...Death%20Knight

    However, that can be explained by the fact that there is a major Blood Elf DK character, and zero Forsaken Death Knight characters;

    https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Koltira_Deathweaver

    However, I will admit that it doesn't explain the domination of Blood Elf DKs over Human DKs.

  14. #2634
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    https://web.archive.org/web/20200812...php?class=Monk

    This is from August 2020, and the Pandaren are clearly the most picked Monk race.
    Yes, if you are 1: Adding both Horde and Alliance Pandarens and 2: considering the Level 20-120 range of those stats.

    If you were able to change the stats to Max Level, the Pandaren numbers for monk drops significantly. It shows that most people who play Pandaren Monks don't actually take them to max level; it seems that those numbers are boosted by people who just wanted to try the class combo out and left the alt idling for the rest of time. I'll admit - I'm one of these people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  15. #2635
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    18,674
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes, if you are 1: Adding both Horde and Alliance Pandarens and 2: considering the Level 20-120 range of those stats.

    If you were able to change the stats to Max Level, the Pandaren numbers for monk drops significantly. It shows that most people who play Pandaren Monks don't actually take them to max level; it seems that those numbers are boosted by people who just wanted to try the class combo out and left the alt idling for the rest of time. I'll admit - I'm one of these people.
    So let's say Blizzard instituted a Goblin/Gnome only Tinker class that implemented mechs;



    +Offered a new physical ranged DPS spec
    +Offered a healing spec that used science instead of magic
    +Offered unique travel forms similar to the Druid class (i.e. your mech transforms into flight mode or sea mode)
    +Offered mech gameplay where the Gnome/Goblin can remain in mech mode permanently

    You really think they would be the least played class in the game? Considering that the mech removes pretty much all aesthetic issues people have with Goblins and Gnomes, I don't see how that would be the case.

  16. #2636
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You really think they would be the least played class in the game? Considering that the mech removes pretty much all aesthetic issues people have with Goblins and Gnomes, I don't see how that would be the case.
    Yes.

    Look at Shamans. They lack the Human and Elf option, and suffer greatly in statistics for it.

    Shamans aren't low popularity because it's a bad class identity, and certainly not because the gameplay is lacking. It's just low because there are no Human and Elf options available. We see this exactly for Paladin, which was fairly niche-pick (not low, just niche) in Vanilla but *skyrocketted* in TBC with the addition of Blood Elf.

    If for any reason one day Blizzard allows Shamans to be Elves and Humans, I would say the numbers would be much more equalized.

    Monk simply has no excuse; it was a poor class design from the very start. Hurt by too many factors, and really has never reached its full potential.


    And let's be very frank here - do we think Demon Hunter is picked so high because its gameplay is so unique, diverse and compelling? Because it's offering unique gameplay that no other class has? Hahahahaha! It's just because they LOOK cool and they make existing Popular Race picks look EVEN COOLER. It is popular because it GIVES players what they want.

    Unfortunately for Goblin and Gnome only Tinker, it's too similar to the Pandaren Monk situation; even less so considering you're asking to not even allow them to be Humans and Elves. It's Monk situation with even lower standards.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-01-09 at 10:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  17. #2637
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    16,078
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Monk is the _reason_ why I am considering popularity to be a factor at all.

    I consider the class a failed experiment. It was designed with no auto-attacks, originally designed to be a 'Combo Fighter' ala Street Fighter within WoW. The idea couldn't get past alpha stage and the concept was dropped, while the rest of Monk design was already fully featured, announced and too late to drop entirely.

    There are certain classes that would FAIL a Modern Design approach, and I believe Monk would be one of them. It's commonly the least-played class in the game. The addition of B-tier classes like a No-Support Role Bard or Goblin/Gnome-only Tinker would only end up taking that position as least-played class. There's very little appeal behind these, and that's why we ended up seeing a fan-favoured pick like Demon Hunter take up the 12 spot as a Leather-wearing Dual Wield DPS (As if we really needed more?) instead of a completely new gameplay oriented class like a Tinker or a Bard.

    The only alternative I see to this is if it were added as a Class Skin, because the new themed Class Skin contributes to boosting use of *existing classes* rather than simply inserting a new class that would need its own set of loot, its own gameplay balance, its own roles in a Raid, etc etc.
    And the death knight was a class designed to be able to fill in a DPS role or a tank role with all of its three specs. Back in Wrath, blood was a good single-target tank, while frost was a beast for AoE tanking, being able to even out-threaten the paladin tank easily.

    Also, as for the monk class being the least played class in the game, that's not exactly an indicative of "failed design". Remember that, until Shadowlands, the monk class was the only expansion class that would start at level one. DKs would start at fifty-five, and demon hunters at hundred and five.

    So make them a Profession instead.
    The bard concept does not fit a crafting profession. That's like saying being an athlete is a crafting profession. The bard doesn't craft anything.

    It is the same as this Holy Trinity Bard basically being a Music themed Priest.
    But it's not "basically a music-themed priest". That's like saying the warlock is a "demon-themed priest". Or that the paladin is a "holy-themed warrior". A bard class, if implemented into WoW, would not be "whatever-themed X class" any more than the present classes are to each other.

    Instead of *coming up* with ways to fit Bards into WoW, focus on what people *want* from the Bard class. What is the number one thing people want out of a Bard Class? It's to play as a Support Role.
    Source for that claim? Because, as far as I know, the majority of people that say "bard must be support" are those against the idea of the bard as a WoW class.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  18. #2638
    Titan Syegfryed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Darkshore, Killing Living and Dead elves
    Posts
    11,878
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes.

    Look at Shamans. They lack the Human and Elf option, and suffer greatly in statistics for it.

    Shamans aren't low popularity because it's a bad class identity, and certainly not because the gameplay is lacking. It's just low because there are no Human and Elf options available. We see this exactly for Paladin, which was fairly niche-pick (not low, just niche) in Vanilla but *skyrocketted* in TBC with the addition of Blood Elf.

    If for any reason one day Blizzard allows Shamans to be Elves and Humans, I would say the numbers would be much more equalized.

    Monk simply has no excuse; it was a poor class design from the very start. Hurt by too many factors, and really has never reached its full potential.
    shamans are lacking because most of the time the class is dogshit/nerved to oblivion, and other classes can do it better, hell, they even lost bloodlust to fucking mages, it have nothing to do with not having elves and humans

    DH in contrast, are popular because they are a 3 button class not rly because "it have elves"

  19. #2639
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    18,674

    Quote

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes.

    Look at Shamans. They lack the Human and Elf option, and suffer greatly in statistics for it.

    Shamans aren't low popularity because it's a bad class identity, and certainly not because the gameplay is lacking. It's just low because there are no Human and Elf options available. We see this exactly for Paladin, which was fairly niche-pick (not low, just niche) in Vanilla but *skyrocketted* in TBC with the addition of Blood Elf.
    Okay, but look at Druids, they’re the most popular class in the game and they only have Night Elves. In every race where Druids are available, it’s the most popular class within that race by far. It beats out the Hunter and Mage classes which allow every race of elf in the game, and Humans. So clearly it isn’t just about the race, it’s about what the class is offering as well.

    And let's be very frank here - do we think Demon Hunter is picked so high because its gameplay is so unique, diverse and compelling? Because it's offering unique gameplay that no other class has? Hahahahaha! It's just because they LOOK cool and they make existing Popular Race picks look EVEN COOLER. It is popular because it GIVES players what they want.

    Unfortunately for Goblin and Gnome only Tinker, it's too similar to the Pandaren Monk situation; even less so considering you're asking to not even allow them to be Humans and Elves. It's Monk situation with even lower standards.
    I will fully admit that the Demon Hunter is perhaps one of Blizzard’s best character designs. It’s simply hard to top a blind Night Elf warrior with a warglaive. Yes, the Demon Hunter oozes cool, and you simply can’t deny that.

    However with that said, a class that utilizes vehicles/mechs for combat would be considered cool by a section of the user base as well. As cool as Demob Hunters? Of course not, but we’d be fooling ourselves if we didn’t acknowledge that there’s an audience for a class that pilots mechs and offers gameplay not offered by existing classes.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-01-09 at 10:42 PM.

  20. #2640
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And the death knight was a class designed to be able to fill in a DPS role or a tank role with all of its three specs. Back in Wrath, blood was a good single-target tank, while frost was a beast for AoE tanking, being able to even out-threaten the paladin tank easily.
    Sure, and this was WoW circa 2010 when we were still using the old Talent Tree system. If we added a Bard anywhere during this time when Hybrids were still being designed to have a Support features, then I'm all for it. But DK was not introduced now, it was introduced 10 years ago.

    Also, as for the monk class being the least played class in the game, that's not exactly an indicative of "failed design". Remember that, until Shadowlands, the monk class was the only expansion class that would start at level one. DKs would start at fifty-five, and demon hunters at hundred and five.
    And are you suggesting Bard be a hero class then?

    The bard concept does not fit a crafting profession. That's like saying being an athlete is a crafting profession. The bard doesn't craft anything.
    They Compose songs and play them. Much like an Engineer makes things only Engineers can use, so would Bards compose Songs that only Bards could play.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •