1. #2701
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    do you acknowledge that there are other factors that may or may not be more influential to the monk class' lack of popularity
    When have I not acknowledged other factors?

    Did I ever say there was only one reason they were unpopular? No.

    You assumed I am denying other factors when truth is I never made such claims. Read the post history.

    I even said this in the last page

    (No Auto Attacks) was a listed feature of the (Monk) class that was a significant part of its appeal. Let us not confuse this with being the ONLY factor of appeal;

    This is exactly what I said in the post you seemed to have the biggest problem with:

    "I consider the class a failed experiment. It was designed with no auto-attacks, originally designed to be a 'Combo Fighter' ala Street Fighter within WoW. The idea couldn't get past alpha stage and the concept was dropped"

    * This was an explanation of opinion using one example to contextualize my reasoning. Opinion, not evidence or proof.
    * Failed experiment is in context of failing to implement a feature that the Monk was marketted around
    * The No-Auto Attack feature was what made Monks unique from every other class. Removing this feature at launch means the class failed to meet this expectation
    * This was just one example of the myriad of factors that contributed to their lack of popularity
    * There are many factors to why they lacked popularity, yet you chose to focus on discussing this one in particular. No other examples were asked for, but that does not mean other factors were not considered. You seemed laser focused on arguing this one point.
    * I did not attribute the Monk's lack of popularity to any changes in gameplay design; their gameplay was absolutely fine
    * 'Failed design' is in context to the Monk's lack of wide-spread appeal. This as opposed to, for example, the Diablo 3 Monk, which (IMO) more than achieved a compelling Monk design and presentation.
    * Failure is applied subjectively, to indicate my personal views of the performance of the class. It is not an objective statement

    I simply gave *a singular* reason that significantly contributed it to failing to meet expectations. This is not a failure in terms of being broken or unplayable. This is a failure of implementing a (as in, one of many) feature that could capture the wide-spread interest of the player base. If you had asked for more examples, I would have provided. You never asked. You simply assumed.

    And the entire time I've been explaining this, you're still dead-set on your own argument that the 3-Spec change for DK's is the same thing. No, it's not the same thing, because the game launched with 3-Tank spec DK's and people got to play that for 2 whole years. The design didn't fail to meet expectations, the gameplay hooks were all in tact. You could res your buddy in combat as a Ghoul. It was a stupid mechanic, but it was a *very* marketable feature that got people interested in playing a DK. This is why I say your examples *are not relevant* to the context of my argument.

    This is what you said earlier-

    "You called the monk a "failed design" because it went through massive changes. I simply pointed out that a famous class today, the death knight, also went through such big changes."
    I wasn't talking about failed design in terms of gameplay. I did not say the Monk is a failed design because it went through massive changes.

    "Failed design" is in context of failing to achieve wide-market appeal and interest.

    Monk design failed to have wide-spread marketting appeal, and I cited the No Auto Attacks as *a* (as in, one of many) reason for this. Going through massive changes is *not* specific to a failure of design; it is just a necessary change to be made. And for the Monk, adding Auto Attacks back in was a necessary change to be made that unfortunately made it less appealing at launch(less marketable)

    Keep in mind, I have never said the Monk had bad gameplay or was unbalanced. I specifically said the context of 'failed design' was specific to its market appeal at launch; its first impression. There is more than one type of design, and design doesn't just mean gameplay. Visual design, Sound design, Gameplay design, Technical design; there are MANY aspects of design and I have consistently said I was talking about its Marketting appeal at launch.



    How is it not relevant considering you literally used the monk's so-called "failed design" as the reason for their lack of popularity?
    Because I don't believe the Death Knight's design ever failed to be marketable.

    The changes you are talking about happened over 2 years after they were already highly popularized, and was not any reason for anyone to *stop* playing a DK. The design change didn't affect the marketability of the DK at launch.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-01-11 at 05:47 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Well, yes. Our opinions are below the canon lore of the game, because we're not the ones writing the lore.

  2. #2702
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    15,387
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I simply gave *a singular* reason that significantly contributed it to failing to meet expectations.
    And you have failed to show that this reason had any impact on the "expectations". much less a significant one. You just asserted it did.

    As I mentioned: the reason the class started at level one while the other expansion classes started at much later levels could very well have had a much bigger impact to the class' popularity. Or the fact it's the one "whimsical" class amidst two other classes which are "dark and edgy". You have failed to demonstrate why this reason of yours could surpass the other possible reasons.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  3. #2703
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And you have failed to show that this reason had any impact on the "expectations".
    Which is fine if you disagree.

    Again, I asserted it because it was my opinion. You are just explaining that you're not convinced of my reasons, and that's fair. You don't have to be.

    If you feel differently, be honest and simply express it so. You telling me that 'I failed to show this reason' only tells me you aren't interested in a conversation, and not actually interested in my opinion on the matter.

    And I think I'm pretty clear that I'm not interested in disproving discussing yours either. As I said, I'm done with your rhetoric. I'm fine with simply agreeing to disagree.

    Cheers.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-01-11 at 06:51 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Well, yes. Our opinions are below the canon lore of the game, because we're not the ones writing the lore.

  4. #2704
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes, you can consider it a new class if you prefer

    Most people won't though, thus Class Skin. People have been talking about this type of concept far longer than I have, with varying ideas. Some people think it should be race exclusive, some think it should only affect a Spec rather than a full class theme change. My specific idea involves being a new identity and *very minimal* gameplay differences. Something like new Talent choices or a Covenants style of new ability choice.

    And yes, it would be similar to what GW2 does, though as completely new rethemes and not just a Prestige of a core class. Necromancers using Warlock gameplay would not be Warlocks, Bards are not Priests, etc. Only core gameplay is reused, with some new talent options peppered in for flavour.
    You can check out my Class Skins thread:
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...20-Class-skins

    But, i see you already did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Actually no, because the mechs of the larger races would have to be far larger than the Gnome and Goblin mechs, and Goblin and Gnomes inside mechs should be larger than fully armored male Draenei and Tauren. So how large should Draenei mechs be?



    There are several Tank abilities that deal more damage than wildfire bomb or explosive shot. Keg Smash immediately comes to mind.



    Because in HotS Gazlowe is exceptionally good at killing creeps. That talent buffs that attribute.



    Yeah, but not all summons are guardian pets. For example, Shaman summon Totems. That doesn’t make totems pets. Priests summon Mindbenders, those ain’t pets, etc.

    In the case of Tinkers, turrets would be summonables, but they wouldn’t be pets.






    So a class based around utilizing animal pets can summon more animals to assist them. Is there a point you’re trying to make here?



    I would definitely consider Nathanos’ two undead hounds pets. I would also consider the ability to control undead beasts to be a form of Necromancy.
    Do i really need to post about Orcs using normal sized mechs in Siege of Orgrimmar, again?

    Kor'kron Machinists are orcs seen in the Siege of Orgrimmar. Kor'kron Shredders are shredders that are used by Kor'kron Machinists in Siege of Orgrimmar.
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Kor%27kron_Machinist
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Kor%27kron_Shredder

    Who do you think pilots the Warframes? midget Draenei?:


    "Lightforged Warframes are Lightforged draenei in warframes located on Krokuun."

    "Warframes (sometimes called battlesuits) are mechanized armor suits (Vindicaar Matrix Core interface: Warframe: Selecting this allows use of the Lightforged Warframe mechanized armor suit while on Argus.)".

    "The Lightforged conduct quick, brutal hit-and-run attacks on the Burning Legion using these agile war machines".

    The only size-changing mounts are those of the Tauren (who, will never be Tinkers).

    Well, not in all cases:

    Keg Smash
    40 Energy 15 yd range
    Instant 8 sec recharge
    1 Charges
    Requires Monk (Brewmaster)
    Requires level 21
    Smash a keg of brew on the target, dealing (85.995% of Attack power) damage to all enemies within 8 yds and reducing their movement speed by 20% for 15 sec. Deals reduced damage beyond 5 targets.

    Grants Shuffle for 5 sec and reduces the remaining cooldown on your Brews by 3 sec.

    Explosive Shot
    Talent
    20 Focus 40 yd range
    Instant cast 30 sec cooldown
    Requires Hunter (Marksmanship)
    Requires level 25
    Requires
    Fires an explosive shot at your target. After 3 sec, the shot will explode, dealing (188.5% of Attack power) Fire damage to up to 6 enemies within 8 yards.

    But, you're right. It is stronger than Hi-Explosive Trap and Wildfire Bomb (57.33% of Attack power & 45% of Attack power).

    It uses that attribute, perhaps:
    Increase maximum Scrap by 2. Dealing damage with Basic Attacks to enemy Heroes, Mercenaries or Monsters reduces the cooldown of Reduce, Reuse, Recycle by 1.5 seconds.

    I don't know if it buffs it.
    It's like saying Tyrande's talents:
    Ranger
    Sentinel pierces the first hero hit. Its width is increased by 25% and deals up to 250% more damage based on distance traveled.

    Ranger's Mark
    Basic Attacks reduce the cooldown of Hunter's Mark by 1 second. Basic Attacks against marked targets reduce the cooldown of Lunar Flare by 3 seconds.

    Aren't indicative of her being a Ranger.

    I, literally, linked you a Turret Guardian pet:
    [Gnomish Flame Turret]

    "Many other classes can summon temporary combat pets - priests have the [Shadowfiend]".

    Totems work much like a Turret so, they fall into the same category.

    The point is not all pets are considered permanent or, under the control of the caster.

    Nathanos' two undead hounds? His current hounds are labeled as beasts, not undead, and he didn't raise them from the dead. His former hounds he fed Coagulated Rot (still not necromancy).

    Much like how i would consider controlling Mechanical Beasts a form of Tinkering. It's nice and all but, Sylvanas (nor Nathanos) raise undead Beasts with Black Arrow (Dark Minion) or Banshee Wave.
    Last edited by Unbelievable; 2021-01-11 at 11:22 AM.

  5. #2705
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    17,696
    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable View Post
    Do i really need to post about Orcs using normal sized mechs in Siege of Orgrimmar, again?

    Kor'kron Machinists are orcs seen in the Siege of Orgrimmar. Kor'kron Shredders are shredders that are used by Kor'kron Machinists in Siege of Orgrimmar.
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Kor%27kron_Machinist
    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Kor%27kron_Shredder
    Shredders are Goblin built machines though.

    Who do you think pilots the Warframes? midget Draenei?:


    "Lightforged Warframes are Lightforged draenei in warframes located on Krokuun."

    "Warframes (sometimes called battlesuits) are mechanized armor suits (Vindicaar Matrix Core interface: Warframe: Selecting this allows use of the Lightforged Warframe mechanized armor suit while on Argus.)".

    "The Lightforged conduct quick, brutal hit-and-run attacks on the Burning Legion using these agile war machines".

    The only size-changing mounts are those of the Tauren (who, will never be Tinkers).
    Thing is, Draenei are pretty huge. Gnomes for example come up below the hips of male Draenei. If Gnome Tinkers inside mechs are slightly larger than male Draenei, than Draenei inside mechs would be by all accounts massive. Far more massive than any doorway, staircase, dungeon tunnel, etc. In that case we're talking huge issues with clipping, taking up visual space in raids, etc. However, a smaller race like Gnomes, Mechagnomes, Vulpera, etc. could be about the size of plate-armored male tauren and still give the effect of a character piloting a large machine in combat.

    Let's be serious; It would be strange if you have a Draenei Tinker entering mech form, and they're almost the same size as a Draenei outside of mech form. That would immediately kill the immersion and look silly to boot.

    Well, not in all cases:

    Keg Smash
    40 Energy 15 yd range
    Instant 8 sec recharge
    1 Charges
    Requires Monk (Brewmaster)
    Requires level 21
    Smash a keg of brew on the target, dealing (85.995% of Attack power) damage to all enemies within 8 yds and reducing their movement speed by 20% for 15 sec. Deals reduced damage beyond 5 targets.

    Grants Shuffle for 5 sec and reduces the remaining cooldown on your Brews by 3 sec.

    Explosive Shot
    Talent
    20 Focus 40 yd range
    Instant cast 30 sec cooldown
    Requires Hunter (Marksmanship)
    Requires level 25
    Requires
    Fires an explosive shot at your target. After 3 sec, the shot will explode, dealing (188.5% of Attack power) Fire damage to up to 6 enemies within 8 yards.

    But, you're right. It is stronger than Hi-Explosive Trap and Wildfire Bomb (57.33% of Attack power & 45% of Attack power).
    Yeah, we were talking about Wildfire Bomb.

    I, literally, linked you a Turret Guardian pet:
    [Gnomish Flame Turret]

    "Many other classes can summon temporary combat pets - priests have the [Shadowfiend]".

    Totems work much like a Turret so, they fall into the same category.

    The point is not all pets are considered permanent or, under the control of the caster.
    I think the more important point is that they're not pets. Also we were talking about Hunter pets. What you're doing here is playing semantics.

    Nathanos' two undead hounds? His current hounds are labeled as beasts, not undead, and he didn't raise them from the dead. His former hounds he fed Coagulated Rot (still not necromancy).

    Much like how i would consider controlling Mechanical Beasts a form of Tinkering. It's nice and all but, Sylvanas (nor Nathanos) raise undead Beasts with Black Arrow (Dark Minion) or Banshee Wave.
    Semantics again.

    Here's the point; We have Hunters that can shoot poison arrows and use undead beasts. We even have Void Elves who have a few Shadow racials that can thrown in the mix and even appear undead in appearance. To top it all off, Void Elves get Entropic Embrace which has a chance to give their attacks additional Shadowfrost damage for 12 seconds. So as a Hunter, you have a 33% chance with each attack to enter this state and you'll be shooting shadow arrows for 12 seconds. They also get a shadow-based teleport.

    IMO, you got your Dark Ranger. Like seriously, what are you missing?
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-01-11 at 12:03 PM.

  6. #2706
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Shredders are Goblin built machines though.



    Thing is, Draenei are pretty huge. Gnomes for example come up below the hips of male Draenei. If Gnome Tinkers inside mechs are slightly larger than male Draenei, than Draenei inside mechs would be by all accounts massive. Far more massive than any doorway, staircase, dungeon tunnel, etc. In that case we're talking huge issues with clipping, taking up visual space in raids, etc. However, a smaller race like Gnomes, Mechagnomes, Vulpera, etc. could be about the size of plate-armored male tauren and still give the effect of a character piloting a large machine in combat.

    Let's be serious; It would be strange if you have a Draenei Tinker entering mech form, and they're almost the same size as a Draenei outside of mech form. That would immediately kill the immersion and look silly to boot.



    Yeah, we were talking about Wildfire Bomb.



    I think the more important point is that they're not pets. Also we were talking about Hunter pets. What you're doing here is playing semantics.



    Semantics again.

    Here's the point; We have Hunters that can shoot poison arrows and use undead beasts. We even have Void Elves who have a few Shadow racials that can thrown in the mix and even appear undead in appearance. To top it all off, Void Elves get Entropic Embrace which has a chance to give their attacks additional Shadowfrost damage for 12 seconds. So as a Hunter, you have a 33% chance with each attack to enter this state and you'll be shooting shadow arrows for 12 seconds. They also get a shadow-based teleport.

    IMO, you got your Dark Ranger. Like seriously, what are you missing?
    And that is a problem because? we didn't debate on whether it was an Orc mech or not. The debate was whether Orcs can use one. And they can.

    Are you blind? enlarge the Warframe picture i posted. There's a Draenei inside.

    No. We were talking about explosives in general.

    Yes, they are pets. They just don't fall into the category of what you consider a pet (permanent combat pet).

    You want a mechanical guardian pet? tame a mechanical pet and use glyph of the dire stable:

    Glyph of the Dire Stable
    Requires Hunter
    Your Dire Beast often calls forth dire versions of your stabled pets.

    Once again, being a comedian.
    Void elves, Beasts and Poison, clearly, have nothing to do with Undead and Dark Ranger themes. You're just reducing them to such, to make them look like they are. You have no better demagogy, so you use these arguments as a last resort.

    Good to see it's your opinion. My opinion would be for you to use a Gnome/Goblin Hunter with Engineering. You get all the tech themes you need. What else is missing?

    "Here's the point; We have Hunters that can use explosives and tame mechanical beasts. We even have Gnomes/Goblins who have a few Technology racials that can thrown in the mix and even appear Tinkerish in appearance. To top it all off, Goblins get Rocket Barrage and Rocket Jump which use technology to fire a rocket or launch you forward. So as a Hunter, you can use those to roleplay as a Tinker. You, also, get an Engineering upgrade as a Gnome, so you can use Engineering to put Goggles on, make a tech gun, use explosives, summon mechanical pets and employ an arrange of devices for all sorts of technological effects."

    What am i missing? Everything the Dark Ranger and Sylvanas can do in WC3 and Heroes of the Storm and we haven't, even, seen her abilities as a boss in Shadowlands, yet.
    Last edited by Unbelievable; 2021-01-11 at 01:14 PM.

  7. #2707
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    17,696
    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable View Post
    And that is a problem because? we didn't debate on whether it was an Orc mech or not. The debate was whether Orcs can use one. And they can.
    Because Clipping is a huge problem, as are very large objects blocking visibility. This is especially the case in tight interior spaces where people need visibility to properly target their spells.

    Further, Orcs inside mechs would have the same problem as Draenei inside mechs.

    Are you blind? enlarge the Warframe picture i posted. There's a Draenei inside.
    Did you actually read what I posted? Can you imagine standing next to a Draenei inside a mech and a Draenei outside a mech, and they're being pretty much the same size overall?

    No. We were talking about explosives in general.
    Okay, and there are tank abilities more powerful than Explosive Shot as well.

    Yes, they are pets. They just don't fall into the category of what you consider a pet (permanent combat pet).

    You want a mechanical guardian pet? tame a mechanical pet and use glyph of the dire stable
    Again, Tinkers have nothing to do with mechanical pets. And no, a Turret is not a Pet like a Hunter or a Warlock pet. Stop being obtuse.


    Once again, being a comedian.
    Void elves, Beasts and Poison, clearly, have nothing to do with Undead and Dark Ranger themes. You're just reducing them to such, to make them look like they are. You have no better demagogy, so you use these arguments as a last resort.

    Good to see it's your opinion. My opinion would be for you to use a Gnome/Goblin Hunter with Engineering. You get all the tech themes you need. What else is missing?

    "Here's the point; We have Hunters that can use explosives and tame mechanical beasts. We even have Gnomes/Goblins who have a few Technology racials that can thrown in the mix and even appear Tinkerish in appearance. To top it all off, Goblins get Rocket Barrage and Rocket Jump which use technology to fire a rocket or launch you forward. So as a Hunter, you can use those to roleplay as a Tinker. You, also, get an Engineering upgrade as a Gnome, so you can use Engineering to put Goggles on, make a tech gun, use explosives, summon mechanical pets and employ an arrange of devices for all sorts of technological effects."

    What am i missing? Everything the Dark Ranger and Sylvanas can do in WC3 and Heroes of the Storm and we haven't, even, seen her abilities as a boss in Shadowlands, yet.
    Yeah, there's no mech to fight inside. That's the entire point of the Tinker. Not to mention none of the Tinker's abilities exist in the Hunter class, not even an approximation of the Tinker's abilities. Saying that an underpowered rocket on a 90 second cool down makes up for the lack of tech abilities in the Hunter class is laughable.

    Meanwhile, the entire point of a Dark Ranger is a Shadow-based Ranger. Void Elves get a passive ability that will allow ALL of a Hunter's attacks to become Shadow-Based, and that's essentially what Black Arrow does in HotS. You have a 33% chance every time you attack to proc this passive ability, and it will make your attacks have Shadow damage for 12 seconds. You can even toss a Shadow laced blade via Chakrams and can Shadowport. Why aren't you a Dark Ranger at this point?

    Most importantly, you can even LOOK like an undead high elf. Your comparison is laughable. You have the look, you have the abilities, you even have additional abilities that add to the entire concept. Why should we bring this class into the game when it's completely covered by a racial choice and an existing class?
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-01-11 at 02:18 PM.

  8. #2708
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    15,387
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Which is fine if you disagree.

    Again, I asserted it because it was my opinion.
    The problem is that you didn't just stated it as an opinion. You also used that claim to back up your entire whole arguments about "marketability" and "appeal" and "popularity".

    And if you're going to use that as basis for your other arguments, we'll have to see some evidence.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  9. #2709
    What about Night Warrior? They are teasing the hell out of it and it cannot be represented by existing classes. Class skin would not make sense either since it is a very unique thing thematically.

    Just find it ridiculous knowing such interesting concepts are lying about and people want comedy over that.

    Here's hoping Blizz will deliver and the Tinker childish entitlement will be pushed aside yet again.

  10. #2710
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    17,696
    Quote Originally Posted by deviantcultist View Post
    What about Night Warrior? They are teasing the hell out of it and it cannot be represented by existing classes. Class skin would not make sense either since it is a very unique thing thematically.

    Just find it ridiculous knowing such interesting concepts are lying about and people want comedy over that.

    Here's hoping Blizz will deliver and the Tinker childish entitlement will be pushed aside yet again.
    I don’t think people are very interested in another shadow-melee elf-based class.

  11. #2711
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I don’t think people are very interested in another shadow-melee elf-based class.
    It also features Arcane, we don't know what specs it can have cause it's a new thing and they can do whatever they want with it. If you look at Tyrande's graphics during Darkshore, she is doing the Shadowpriest Void cast animation and Spriest is the only spec that uses those things.

    Night Warrior if done right can incorporate Warden elements along with the long missing "Avatar of Vengeance" ability and they can take the liberty to merge it with Dark Ranger.

    All of this is raw speculation since both Dark Ranger/Sylvanas and Tyrande/Night Warrior are undergoing development and the latter hasn't been fleshed out at all yet.

    What I talk with certainty is that Elune's powers in the cosmic war we are about to uncover are something very crucial and interesting. Danuser said we are scratching the surface of something big, so it is only natural to expect that the next thematic class will be something major.

  12. #2712
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Because Clipping is a huge problem, as are very large objects blocking visibility. This is especially the case in tight interior spaces where people need visibility to properly target their spells.

    Further, Orcs inside mechs would have the same problem as Draenei inside mechs.



    Did you actually read what I posted? Can you imagine standing next to a Draenei inside a mech and a Draenei outside a mech, and they're being pretty much the same size overall?



    Okay, and there are tank abilities more powerful than Explosive Shot as well.



    Again, Tinkers have nothing to do with mechanical pets. And no, a Turret is not a Pet like a Hunter or a Warlock pet. Stop being obtuse.




    Yeah, there's no mech to fight inside. That's the entire point of the Tinker. Not to mention none of the Tinker's abilities exist in the Hunter class, not even an approximation of the Tinker's abilities. Saying that an underpowered rocket on a 90 second cool down makes up for the lack of tech abilities in the Hunter class is laughable.

    Meanwhile, the entire point of a Dark Ranger is a Shadow-based Ranger. Void Elves get a passive ability that will allow ALL of a Hunter's attacks to become Shadow-Based, and that's essentially what Black Arrow does in HotS. You have a 33% chance every time you attack to proc this passive ability, and it will make your attacks have Shadow damage for 12 seconds. You can even toss a Shadow laced blade via Chakrams and can Shadowport. Why aren't you a Dark Ranger at this point?

    Most importantly, you can even LOOK like an undead high elf. Your comparison is laughable. You have the look, you have the abilities, you even have additional abilities that add to the entire concept. Why should we bring this class into the game when it's completely covered by a racial choice and an existing class?
    I don't know if you're playing dumb right now, or not. Clipping issues? there are Orcs and Draenei in mechs. They would be the same size as Goblin and Gnomes in mech. They would take more space in the cockpit, just like on mounts.

    Suddenly, you care about blocking visibility? you're the one who suggested permanent mechs. That would mean dozens of mechs walking around freely, blocking view.

    Yes i can. THEY ARE IN THE GAME. They're not the same size. You, clearly, haven't seen a mech alongside a Draenei:


    Then, post those abilities.

    Once again, you do not know the difference between a combat pet and a guardian pet. You're repeating the same mantra, even though i explained the differences to you (you're just choosing not to see it).

    Good thing our friend fossilfree helped us with that:


    https://www.wowhead.com/item=132531/...ed-combat-mode

    I knew it would be useful one day.

    That's because you can't differentiate between Void, Death and Fel. To you, they are all the same because gameplay-wise they deal Shadow damage. But, that's not how it is in lore. I don't expect much from you because you are, clearly, not lore-savvy. But, You can, at least, give it a try and read some lore. I know it's, probably, hard for you.

    We have none of that in game. We have your laughable imagination for a Dark Ranger make-belief. Void elves are not Undead High elves, and Black Arrow, Life Drain, Banshee's Wail and Mind Control are not Entropic Embrace abilities.

    Meanwhile, you can create a Gnome/Goblin Hunter, take the Engineering profession, strap on some Goggles, use the Reaves module and play a Tinker.

    Quote Originally Posted by deviantcultist View Post
    What about Night Warrior? They are teasing the hell out of it and it cannot be represented by existing classes. Class skin would not make sense either since it is a very unique thing thematically.

    Just find it ridiculous knowing such interesting concepts are lying about and people want comedy over that.

    Here's hoping Blizz will deliver and the Tinker childish entitlement will be pushed aside yet again.
    Some people just want to play dumbfounded and be irritative.

    Of course the Night Warrior is a concept they are pushing for. Only a blind person, like some users here, won't see it.

    Go watch my Ranger concept, which integrates the Priestess of the Moon (Night Warrior) in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I don’t think people are very interested in another shadow-melee elf-based class.
    You forget that Tyrande uses ranged abilities as well, alongside Arcane.

    Good thing you don't know what people want or not, and that it's not up to you.
    Last edited by Unbelievable; 2021-01-11 at 04:00 PM.

  13. #2713
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    17,696
    Quote Originally Posted by deviantcultist View Post
    It also features Arcane, we don't know what specs it can have cause it's a new thing and they can do whatever they want with it. If you look at Tyrande's graphics during Darkshore, she is doing the Shadowpriest Void cast animation and Spriest is the only spec that uses those things.

    Night Warrior if done right can incorporate Warden elements along with the long missing "Avatar of Vengeance" ability and they can take the liberty to merge it with Dark Ranger.

    All of this is raw speculation since both Dark Ranger/Sylvanas and Tyrande/Night Warrior are undergoing development and the latter hasn't been fleshed out at all yet.

    What I talk with certainty is that Elune's powers in the cosmic war we are about to uncover are something very crucial and interesting. Danuser said we are scratching the surface of something big, so it is only natural to expect that the next thematic class will be something major.
    Okay, but what is it that is making people find this class concept interesting?

    Simple, it's Tyrande with dual warglaives killing people (especially Nathanos). So if this becomes a class, what are people who want this class going to want to see?

    Elves with dual warglaives using shadow/arcane abilities.

    The problem is that the previous class inclusion was Elves with dual warglaives using shadow/fel abilities. I mean sure, you could add Spirit/Avatar of Vengeance to this, but what does the entire shadow-empowered "vengeance" thing remind you of?

  14. #2714
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Okay, but what is it that is making people find this class concept interesting?

    Simple, it's Tyrande with dual warglaives killing people (especially Nathanos). So if this becomes a class, what are people who want this class going to want to see?

    Elves with dual warglaives using shadow/arcane abilities.

    The problem is that the previous class inclusion was Elves with dual warglaives using shadow/fel abilities. I mean sure, you could add Spirit/Avatar of Vengeance to this, but what does the entire shadow-empowered "vengeance" thing remind you of?
    Using a bow, spirit owl, Lunar spells and healing.

    Avatar of Vengeance:
    Avatars of Vengeance are created by wardens when they cast "Vengeance". They summon Spirit of Vengeances.

    Spirits of Vengeance are created by the Avatar of Vengeance when it casts "Spirit of Vengeance". Spirits of Vengeance are invulnerable and will disappear after 50 seconds or when the Avatar of Vengeance is destroyed.

    I don't know but, nothing about these remind me of a Demon Hunter like, you're trying to imply.

  15. #2715
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    17,696
    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable View Post
    I don't know if you're playing dumb right now, or not. Clipping issues? there are Orcs and Draenei in mechs. They would be the same size as Goblin and Gnomes in mech. They would take more space in the cockpit, just like on mounts.
    Please post a picture of a Draenei or Orc inside a mech in a normal interior space (like an inn or a shop).

    Here's Mekkatorque in one;



    Suddenly, you care about blocking visibility? you're the one who suggested permanent mechs. That would mean dozens of mechs walking around freely, blocking view.
    You're clearly not reading what I'm writing. The reason you restrict it to smaller races is that the mechs don't have to be exceedingly large to give the illusion of a race piloting a large mech. In that case the "large mech" could be simply the size of a male Draenei or Tauren in plate armor.

    Yes i can. THEY ARE IN THE GAME. They're not the same size. You, clearly, haven't seen a mech alongside a Draenei:
    Someone isn't reading the responses......

    Then, post those abilities.
    Tinker abilities? Just hop over to WC3 Tinker and HotS Tinker.

    Once again, you do not know the difference between a combat pet and a guardian pet. You're repeating the same mantra, even though i explained the differences to you (you're just choosing not to see it).
    I know that Shaman aren't considered a pet class despite being able to summon a variety of totems and elementals.

    Why is that? Could it be because none of those are pets?

    Good thing our friend fossilfree helped us with that:

    I knew it would be useful one day.
    You mean the engineering toy that you can only use on Broken Shore? Yeah, that's totally the same as having the ability to pilot a mech in actual content.

    What if I want to actually do some CURRENT WoW content? Hell, what if I want to do Legion content outside of Broken shore? Reeves Combat Module doesn't work for any of that.

    That's because you can't differentiate between Void, Death and Fel. To you, they are all the same because gameplay-wise they deal Shadow damage. But, that's not how it is in lore. I don't expect much from you because you are, clearly, not lore-savvy. But, You can, at least, give it a try and read some lore. I know it's, probably, hard for you.
    Uh, that's not just "to me", that's a FACT; It's all Shadow damage and shadow-based magic so it really doesn't matter.

    We have none of that in game. We have your laughable imagination for a Dark Ranger make-belief. Void elves are not Undead High elves, and Black Arrow, Life Drain, Banshee's Wail and Mind Control are not Entropic Embrace abilities.
    Yeah, you're not getting most of those abilities because they already exist in other classes. You're also not getting HotS Black Arrow because a passive ability that stuns targets, and that would be grossly OP.

    Meanwhile, you can create a Gnome/Goblin Hunter, take the Engineering profession, strap on some Goggles, use the Reaves module and play a Tinker.
    Again, a Hunter isn't a Tinker. Shooting arrows, slashing with a pole arm, getting healed with animal blood, and taming animals isn't a Tinker.

    However, shooting shadow arrows, throwing shadow blades, shadow porting, taming undead creatures (Necromancy) and looking like an undead elf is a Dark Ranger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable View Post
    Using a bow, spirit owl, Lunar spells and healing.

    Avatar of Vengeance:
    Avatars of Vengeance are created by wardens when they cast "Vengeance". They summon Spirit of Vengeances.

    Spirits of Vengeance are created by the Avatar of Vengeance when it casts "Spirit of Vengeance". Spirits of Vengeance are invulnerable and will disappear after 50 seconds or when the Avatar of Vengeance is destroyed.

    I don't know but, nothing about these remind me of a Demon Hunter like, you're trying to imply.
    Really? Vengeance is the name of the Demon Hunter tank spec.

    BTW, you ever wonder why they completely changed that ability in HotS? Because it was OP as hell.

  16. #2716
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The problem is that you didn't just stated it as an opinion.
    News flash Ielenia, explaining the reasoning behind an opinion, even if _you don't think the reason makes sense_ is still an opinion.

    The fact is, the reasons I gave *weren't* fallacies. They simply didn't meet your standard of being a compelling reason the class was unpopular.

    Take in the facts here. I never said it was the *most important* or *only* reason Monks are unpopular. I simply used it as an example. I did not base my entire argument around this one example; you chose to discuss this particular example and I kept responding that's all. If I asked you if lacking the No-auto attack system contributed to them being less popular, would you say it is not a contributing factor? No. You'd just say you think there are other factors that (YOU THINK) are more important. But that doesn't actually counter my example, because *you* can't prove that those other factors contributed more to the Monk's unpopularity either. Starting at level 1 and being whimsical are your own anecdotal reasons; these are not evidence. You're arguing opinion with opinion, and trying to say that mine is wrong because of your own standards.

    Nothing I said was actually untrue. You just deemed it so because you have different personal standards for why a Monk failed. Simple as that.

    Again, chill. I'm not interested in going further with your rhetoric. I'm only defending myself against your baseless accusations that my opinion was anything but an opinion, and against your claims that I was using any sort of fallacy. Any more of this and I'm just gonna block you.


    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I don’t think people are very interested in another shadow-melee elf-based class.
    The class doesn't have to be elf based at all.

    Night Warrior could be expanded to more than just Night Elf, much like how Druid was branched out to multiple races.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-01-11 at 05:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Well, yes. Our opinions are below the canon lore of the game, because we're not the ones writing the lore.

  17. #2717
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Please post a picture of a Draenei or Orc inside a mech in a normal interior space (like an inn or a shop).

    Here's Mekkatorque in one;





    You're clearly not reading what I'm writing. The reason you restrict it to smaller races is that the mechs don't have to be exceedingly large to give the illusion of a race piloting a large mech. In that case the "large mech" could be simply the size of a male Draenei or Tauren in plate armor.



    Someone isn't reading the responses......



    Tinker abilities? Just hop over to WC3 Tinker and HotS Tinker.



    I know that Shaman aren't considered a pet class despite being able to summon a variety of totems and elementals.

    Why is that? Could it be because none of those are pets?



    You mean the engineering toy that you can only use on Broken Shore? Yeah, that's totally the same as having the ability to pilot a mech in actual content.

    What if I want to actually do some CURRENT WoW content? Hell, what if I want to do Legion content outside of Broken shore? Reeves Combat Module doesn't work for any of that.



    Uh, that's not just "to me", that's a FACT; It's all Shadow damage and shadow-based magic so it really doesn't matter.



    Yeah, you're not getting most of those abilities because they already exist in other classes. You're also not getting HotS Black Arrow because a passive ability that stuns targets, and that would be grossly OP.



    Again, a Hunter isn't a Tinker. Shooting arrows, slashing with a pole arm, getting healed with animal blood, and taming animals isn't a Tinker.

    However, shooting shadow arrows, throwing shadow blades, shadow porting, taming undead creatures (Necromancy) and looking like an undead elf is a Dark Ranger.



    Really? Vengeance is the name of the Demon Hunter tank spec.

    BTW, you ever wonder why they completely changed that ability in HotS? Because it was OP as hell.
    Just replace Mekkatorque's mech with a Shredder or a Warframe.

    You, clearly, have not been reading what i've been writing. The size of the race piloting the mech does not affect the size of the mech itself.

    Someone hasn't been reading the responses... Tank abilities.

    You're not the brightest, are you? What most people consider a pet class is a combat pet class, like the Hunter, Warlock and Death Knight.
    It does not mean other classes do not utilize pets. That is what called Guardian pets or, temporary pets. For example, "Fire Elementals, Earth Elementals, and Storm Elementals summoned by Shamans are guardians unless the Shaman has the talent [Primal Elementalist], which causes them instead to be controllable pets. Enhancement shamans can additionally use [Feral Spirit] to summon 2 Spirit wolves".

    Reaves Module: Piloted Combat Mode
    Item Level 42
    Use: Teach Reaves how to enter Piloted Combat Mode.
    Max Stack: 20
    Sell Price: 8 75

    Nothing says "only usable on the Broken Shore".

    -_- That's because you're unfamiliar with lore. The same can be said about a Hunter's and a Tinker's explosives - they both deal fire damage.

    It's weird... because I remember other classes that had their abilities spread in all sorts of in-game classes, and were still implemented, despite your objection. Funny, huh?
    At the end of the day, your prediction abilities are worth jack shit, as we've seen in the past.

    Using explosives and Mechanical pets is, though. You forget to mention these.

    Weird, because i can't find any of the abilities you mentioned in the Hunter class. It just comes to show how little you have for an argument if you have to use Void elves as a justification for in-game Dark Rangers

    *Applause*. A spec name is an indication for a Warden ability. Truly hilarious. You just keep amazing me with your lack of lore knowledge...

  18. #2718
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    17,696
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The class doesn't have to be elf based at all.

    Night Warrior could be expanded to more than just Night Elf, much like how Druid was branched out to multiple races.
    It would be Elf-based because it's core concept revolves around Tyrande, an elf.

    Also it's melee, and it has shadow aspects, and it's warglaives. It's essentially Demon Hunter 2.0.

  19. #2719
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It would be Elf-based because it's core concept revolves around Tyrande, an elf.

    Also it's melee, and it has shadow aspects, and it's warglaives. It's essentially Demon Hunter 2.0.
    It depends.

    Would you consider Paladin to be Human based by today's standards? Paladin was initially designed around a Human exclusively, but has expanded its lore and influence around to many other races. Is it still considered a Human-based class?

    Shamans were Orcs only in Warcraft 3. The Shaman core concept revolves around the Orc Shaman unit and other Orc Heroes like Farseer and Thrall. Would it be considered an Orc-based class?
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-01-11 at 05:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Well, yes. Our opinions are below the canon lore of the game, because we're not the ones writing the lore.

  20. #2720
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It would be Elf-based because it's core concept revolves around Tyrande, an elf.

    Also it's melee, and it has shadow aspects, and it's warglaives. It's essentially Demon Hunter 2.0.
    I missed the part where Demon Hunters were using bows, magical arrows, spirit beasts, Lunar spells and healing.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •