1. #3281
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It's still engineering abilities doing the same thing as class abilities. By that logic, I can justify a new ability for a necromancer or a bard class and argue that "they're not the same" because the bard/necromancer ability has a lower cooldown, or deals/prevents more damage, or has a secondary effect the other does not.
    It's not an engineering ability it's an engineering item.

    Your example would be an example of 2 abilities.

    And before you start your typical BS, we're talking about gameplay, not your head canon.

  2. #3282
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If the damage isn't viable, then it doesn't replace a damage ability.



    Yeah, the Engineering Stealth is a 15 second duration with a 10 minute CD. Compared to Rogue stealth which is permanent, and Hunter Camouflage which lasts for 1 minute on a 1 minute CD and increases your regeneration.



    Such as?
    Where did I say it is replacing a damage ability? It's balanced around anyone being able to use it and to not replace your damaging abilities. The only abilities you have that replace others are talent tree abilities and they only replace a comparable skill. Otherwise everyone would just have a single damage ability if it were like you are describing.

    Again just because they are balanced in a way you don't like doesn't make them comparable. Just like a hunter's stealth isn't just a clone of a rogues stealth. And hunters stealth it lasts for 1 minute and has a 1 minute cooldown once you leave stealth. You make it sound like its a perma clickable when its not.


    Just off hand I can think of two:
    Arcane shot is baseline for all hunters and is a dps loss on a beastmaster. You should always use cobra shot.
    Shield of the righteous is now baseline and is also bad for ret paladins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It's not an engineering ability it's an engineering item.

    Your example would be an example of 2 abilities.

    And before you start your typical BS, we're talking about gameplay, not your head canon.
    Yes and its your headcannon that an engineering item doesn't do the same thing as a comparable skill. It's also your headcannon that an ability is somehow different if it comes from a profession. Remember the herbalism heal? Guess what that was an ability. It still healed you just like any other heal skill.

    BLizzard balances engineering shit around the fact that anyone can use it and they don't want to make them so god damn op that everyone picks it. Just like they balance the damage of instant cast skills or range skills differently and so on.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2021-01-22 at 03:21 AM.

  3. #3283
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    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoSe7eN View Post
    mmo-champion.com/threads/2294389-New-Necromancer-Concept-2017

    Seriously, who would not want this? Can't argue this would be awesome.
    B-b-b-BUt tHerE ArE dAtH NuGhTz aLReADy
    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Jailer's first ever appearance involved chucking him [Baine] off a cliff for being too shit to even qualify as a Maw trash mob.

  4. #3284
    Plate int-based melee dual-wielding wand specialist.
    @thwart <- don't click this and learn his shame
    Newsflash: 2016 Thwart would hate 2019 Thwart! Definitely don't click this either!

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  5. #3285
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It's not an engineering ability it's an engineering item.

    Your example would be an example of 2 abilities.
    And they're engineering abilities. Damage is not evidence of being "different things" when we're talking about concepts behind their designs.

    And before you start your typical BS, we're talking about gameplay, not your head canon.
    Unlike you, I can keep my arguments straight and not conflate two separate discussions.
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  6. #3286
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Where did I say it is replacing a damage ability?
    Right here;

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    False. Under no circumstance does items serve the same overall function and purpose as class abilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Of course they can. An engineering rocket can do damage so can a goblins rocket Barrage. An engineers slowfall serves the same purpose of a priests slowfall. Wormhole generators serve the same purpose as a mages teleport etc....

    Yes and its your headcannon that an engineering item doesn't do the same thing as a comparable skill. It's also your headcannon that an ability is somehow different if it comes from a profession. Remember the herbalism heal? Guess what that was an ability. It still healed you just like any other heal skill.
    Rock-It! Turret
    25 yd range
    Instant 10 sec recharge
    2 Charges
    Summons a Rock-It! Turret at your feet for 15 sec that shoots rockets at a nearby enemy within 25 yards every 2 sec, dealing 3 Fire damage.

    Find an engineering item that does the exact same thing as that ability. Range, cooldown, charges, etc.

    And yes I remember the Herbalism heal. What does that have to do with this conversation where you're trying to say that an item is the same as an ability?

    BLizzard balances engineering shit around the fact that anyone can use it and they don't want to make them so god damn op that everyone picks it. Just like they balance the damage of instant cast skills or range skills differently and so on.
    And that changes the fact that items aren't the same as abilities how exactly?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And they're engineering abilities. Damage is not evidence of being "different things" when we're talking about concepts behind their designs.
    The Tinker abilities from HotS are not engineering abilities because they don't exist in engineering. Are you trying to say that engineering items are actually abilities via your personal lore (head canon)?

  7. #3287
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Find an engineering item that does the exact same thing as that ability. Range, cooldown, charges, etc.
    But it doesn't have to be the same "range, cooldown, charges, etc.". It just needs to have the same concept, and for that, we do: there are turrets in the engineering profession.
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  8. #3288
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But it doesn't have to be the same "range, cooldown, charges, etc.". It just needs to have the same concept, and for that, we do: there are turrets in the engineering profession.
    Qwerty was arguing that it was my head canon that an engineering item doesn't do the same thing as a comparable skill. So s/he can find the engineering item that does the same thing as Rock-it turret.

    And if it doesn't have the same range, cooldown, charges, etc. it doesn't serve the same purpose, nor does it have the same concept.

  9. #3289
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The Tinker abilities from HotS are not engineering abilities because they don't exist in engineering.
    I've already demonstrated that they're represented in the profession, though:
    • "Engineering upgrade" is represented by the "tinkering" section of the profession.
    • "Pocket Factory" is represented by goblin bomb dispenser.
    • "Robo-goblin" is represented by reaves' piloting module.
    • "Cluster Rockets" is represented by the many rockets the profession has.

    Are you trying to say that engineering items are actually abilities via your personal lore (head canon)?
    It's funny how you try to mock me by calling my arguments "head canon" yet you engage in headcanon over and over, and worse, state it as fact.
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  10. #3290
    Quote Originally Posted by Heladys View Post
    Plate int-based melee dual-wielding wand specialist.
    power rangers mystic force

  11. #3291
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I've already demonstrated that they're represented in the profession, though:
    • "Engineering upgrade" is represented by the "tinkering" section of the profession.
    • "Pocket Factory" is represented by goblin bomb dispenser.
    • "Robo-goblin" is represented by reaves' piloting module.
    • "Cluster Rockets" is represented by the many rockets the profession has.
    And this is entirely your opinion, not supported by any facts whatsoever.

    I mean you'd have to be pretty silly to believe that this;

    Creates a factory which automatically constructs Clockwerk Goblins. Clockwerk Goblins explode upon death, causing damage to nearby enemy units.
    Is represented as this;

    Use: Creates a mobile bomb that charges the nearest enemy and explodes for 315 to 385 fire damage. (30 Min Cooldown)
    But hey, at this point it's about what I expect.

    It's funny how you try to mock me by calling my arguments "head canon" yet you engage in headcanon over and over, and worse, state it as fact.
    What you typed above is a prime example of what I'm talking about.

  12. #3292
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And this is entirely your opinion, not supported by any facts whatsoever.
    Other than the fact that those features behave very much like the abilities from Warcraft 3.

    I mean you'd have to be pretty silly to believe that this;
    This is highly ironic coming from the guy who posited the idea that our player characters are somehow super-powered mutants that do not need to eat or drink or sleep at all.

    Is represented as this;

    But hey, at this point it's about what I expect.
    First: notice how I never said "1:1". Second: the concepts are largely the same.

    What you typed above is a prime example of what I'm talking about.
    Doesn't change the fact that you mock other people's arguments by calling them "headcanon" while engaging in headcanon yourself and stating them as facts.
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  13. #3293
    monks based off panda lore -> unpopular
    tinker based off gnomes -> also will be unpopular

  14. #3294
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Other than the fact that those features behave very much like the abilities from Warcraft 3.
    Creating a factory and creating a bomb are not similar in any fashion whatsoever.

    First: notice how I never said "1:1". Second: the concepts are largely the same.
    Of course its not 1:1, or even close to any level of similarity. If it were you would have to use actual facts to justify your argument instead of simply your opinion.

    Doesn't change the fact that you mock other people's arguments by calling them "headcanon" while engaging in headcanon yourself and stating them as facts.
    I'm using gameplay facts since the lore to support your "argument" doesn't exist. Nowhere in the lore (or by blizzard) does it state that the Tinker was placed into the engineering profession. Unlike how the Necromancer concept was placed within the Death Knight class (a fact you deny btw). Nope, all we have is your personal head canon based on nothing more than your personal beliefs and semantics.

    You seriously wonder why I mock your arguments when you're pushing nonsense like that? Anyway, feel free to have the last word. I'm not going to "debate" with someone who doesn't know the difference between an item and an ability (or a factory and a bomb).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by threadz View Post
    monks based off panda lore -> unpopular
    tinker based off gnomes -> also will be unpopular
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...r-for-the-game
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...W-class-in-9-0

    Yeah seriously.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-01-22 at 06:40 AM.

  15. #3295
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Creating a factory and creating a bomb are not similar in any fashion whatsoever.
    What does the factory itself create?

    Of course its not 1:1
    Then stop behaving like I did.

    If it were you would have to use actual facts
    I am. You just don't like those facts, and try to dismiss them as "headcanon".

    I'm using gameplay facts since the lore to support your "argument" doesn't exist.
    I didn't even mention lore, here.

    Nowhere in the lore (or by blizzard) does it state that the Tinker was placed into the engineering profession.
    One section of the engineering profession is called "tinkering". One reagent that the engineers use are "tinker's kit". Another enhancement they used to use was called "tinker's gear". And then we have Tinkerer Gizlock, a tinker who uses only engineering abilities. So I'd hardly say my claims have "no evidence".

    You seriously wonder why I mock your arguments when you're pushing nonsense like that?
    I'll repeat:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    This is highly ironic coming from the guy who posited the idea that our player characters are somehow super-powered mutants that do not need to eat or drink or sleep at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Says the guy who proposed the idea that our player characters are somehow unique mutants that do not need food or water to survive and can be restored to full health by eating a single apple, unlike the overwhelming majority of characters in the lore. The irony and lack of self-awareness is palpable.

    I'm not going to "debate" with someone who doesn't know the difference between an item and an ability (or a factory and a bomb).
    "Item" and "ability" have no differences when they do the same action.
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  16. #3296
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    "Item" and "ability" have no differences when they do the same action.
    Creates a factory...
    Creates a bomb...
    Yeah, totally the same action....

  17. #3297
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Right here;








    Rock-It! Turret
    25 yd range
    Instant 10 sec recharge
    2 Charges
    Summons a Rock-It! Turret at your feet for 15 sec that shoots rockets at a nearby enemy within 25 yards every 2 sec, dealing 3 Fire damage.

    Find an engineering item that does the exact same thing as that ability. Range, cooldown, charges, etc.

    And yes I remember the Herbalism heal. What does that have to do with this conversation where you're trying to say that an item is the same as an ability?



    And that changes the fact that items aren't the same as abilities how exactly?

    - - - Updated - - -



    The Tinker abilities from HotS are not engineering abilities because they don't exist in engineering. Are you trying to say that engineering items are actually abilities via your personal lore (head canon)?
    "Under no circumstance does items serve the same overall function and purpose as class abilities." Nothing you say here says its supposed to be a replacement for an ability. You said the same overall function and purpose. The function and purpose of a stealth ability is to prevent you from being a seen. The function and purpose of a slow fall is to make you fall slow. The function and purpose of a damage skill is to do damage to something. How dense are you?

    Is Rock-It! Turret a class ability? No it's not. Why are you trying to bring in an npc's ability? You do realize Npc abilities don't equal player abilities do you? And by bringing it up you are actually proving my point that Blizzard balances everything based on its usage case? Heck even the same npc can have thier abilities scaled depending on how many players are ment to fight it.

    Where something comes from doesn't change its purpose. You were the one that insisted they have different purposes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Qwerty was arguing that it was my head canon that an engineering item doesn't do the same thing as a comparable skill. So s/he can find the engineering item that does the same thing as Rock-it turret.

    And if it doesn't have the same range, cooldown, charges, etc. it doesn't serve the same purpose, nor does it have the same concept.
    Because it is your head cannon. The purpose of a holy paladin and a resto shaman is to heal and yet neither of them are identical. Doing damage to something is doing damage to something that is its function. It's insane that you seem to still play the game and yet can't comprehend this when every expansion and level skills change the damage/healing/what ever they do. Some even change drastically like demonology locks.

    Your not asking for something to have the same function as something else you are asking for a 1 for 1 clone of something which isn't something Blizzard does.
    Last edited by qwerty123456; 2021-01-22 at 07:00 AM.

  18. #3298
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Oh dear lord no. I get what you're saying, but that's a recipe for disaster. The tricky part is finding Alliance races that make any degree of sense. Kul Tirans are probably the most likely I'd guess. Dark Irons maybe? Worgen?

    Horde side, both types of Trolls is obvious. Orcs? Forsaken? Goblins?
    Unfortunately, for a shadow hunter to be playable it would HAVE to be troll only because in lore trolls absolutely refuse to teach other races voodoo.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Creating a factory and creating a bomb are not similar in any fashion whatsoever.



    Of course its not 1:1, or even close to any level of similarity. If it were you would have to use actual facts to justify your argument instead of simply your opinion.



    I'm using gameplay facts since the lore to support your "argument" doesn't exist. Nowhere in the lore (or by blizzard) does it state that the Tinker was placed into the engineering profession. Unlike how the Necromancer concept was placed within the Death Knight class (a fact you deny btw). Nope, all we have is your personal head canon based on nothing more than your personal beliefs and semantics.

    You seriously wonder why I mock your arguments when you're pushing nonsense like that? Anyway, feel free to have the last word. I'm not going to "debate" with someone who doesn't know the difference between an item and an ability (or a factory and a bomb).

    - - - Updated - - -



    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...r-for-the-game
    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...W-class-in-9-0

    Yeah seriously.
    The necromancer was 100% NOT folded into necromancer from a lore standpoint. There's plenty of necromancers that aren't death knights.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Qwerty was arguing that it was my head canon that an engineering item doesn't do the same thing as a comparable skill. So s/he can find the engineering item that does the same thing as Rock-it turret.

    And if it doesn't have the same range, cooldown, charges, etc. it doesn't serve the same purpose, nor does it have the same concept.
    They have the exact same function and purpose. Shoot ranged attacks to deal damage to enemies. Saying that if they don't have the same cooldown or range that they don't serve the same function and purpose would just be you moving goalposts as usual instead of just admitting you're wrong.

  19. #3299
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    There's some major issues with the class fantasy that I don't like about it whereas I'd definitely play a Monk class if styled around the Diablo 3 Monk. Something was definitely lost in translation here, both in the gameplay and the overall aesthetic.
    Maybe, because the Diablo III Monk is light-based, rather than chinese based. His accent sounds more like a Draenei, than an asian. But, i totally agree. Windwalker Monk gameplay should take inspiration from it. For example, in HotS we have Chen representing the Brewmaster, Lili somewhat representing the Mistweaver and Karazhim is the only one left to represent the Windwalker Monk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So who exactly should we be polling then? Where should we be polling these people?



    It's less of an echo chamber than the official forums, since anyone could walk in here and vote. Again, is there a better place we should go to poll people?

    Frankly, it sounds like you're making a bunch of excuses here.
    Official Forums.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yes that's so. Out of 20 abilities Death Knights got about 3-4 abilities from the Lich King over the course of several expansions. Death Knights got more abilities than that from WC3 in WotLK.

    And Unholy Frenzy came from WC3.



    I didn't say that.



    Whoop dee doo. Like I said, they were our allies and they were present, but MoP was hardly centered on them.



    It wouldn't operate like a siege vehicle, it would operate like a Druid form. In other words, you would hit summon mech and you would hop in the mech and your mech abilities would be available. However it wouldn't be like vehicle controls, it would just be typical class controls. The thing is that they could have various mechanics to make the form feel like a vehicle.



    Metamorphosis was a selling point for a Demon Hunter whether it was permanent or not. The point is that in nearly all of its iterations Metamorphosis was a temporary state, so obviously the class ability would also be temporary. The Tinker's mech state in all of its iterations have been permanent.



    Actually no, the constant mech is derived from Robo Goblin in WC3. Look it up.



    And there's that denialism I was talking about.....

    - - - Updated - - -



    I'm simply responding to people who are quoting my posts. People are free to bring up other classes in this topic if they wish.
    That wasn't my point. My point was to expose your bias towards Island Expedition AI over Mekkatorque which, has no justification whatsoever.

    You can't center an entire expansion over a race of goodie-two-shoes, especially having that kind of reception from the playerbase. Even the Orcs aesthetic in WoD got tiresome after a while.

    Do you realize that by making it a form, you invalidate the gameplay of a Tinker outside of the mech form? What's the point in that?

    Well, not in HotS it isn't. Otherwise, it wouldn't have a cooldown, and its benefits wouldn't last X seconds.

    Yes but, unlike the WC3 Robo-Goblin which, has a downside, your flawless, permanent, mech comes from your fantasy to play as Iron Man. Players want to play inside a mech, as well as outside of it.

    Denialism or not - knowing you and how you operate - I'd put my money on you "rigging the elections".

    Well, no they're not. It's quickly being drowned by your constant ramble about Tinkers and you dismissing their ideas. So, this thread appears to be "democratic" but, it's actually governed by you. You just took control of someone else's thread

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Sylvanas is the only character in WoW with her abilities because she is a banshee inhabiting her old body.
    Which, was the case for every class before entering the game.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Guys, drop the Tinker talk please. Teriz is incapable of listening to anyone's point unless it supports his narrative. Just ignore him and lets talk about something else.
    Well, you do the same thing (see above). What's the point?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    How is a Tinker concept that follows the WC3 and HotS Tinker just like the previous three expansion classes have followed their WC3/HotS concepts incredibly restrictive and stupid? I’m just following the precedent set by Blizzard.
    Blizzard's concept does not include the Vulpera.
    Blizzard's concept does not invalidate the claw pack with a constant mech.
    Blizzard's concept does not invalidate Gnomish Engineering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Just like the Brewmaster vendors had none of the abilities that Brewmasters had in WC3. Just because they share the name doesn't mean they're the same thing.

    Anyways, go ahead and have your conversations about other classes. Don't let me hold you back.

    To anyone else in the thread, I won't respond to any more posts. I want you guys to have a fruitful class discussion.
    Brewmaster vendors weren't Pandaren.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    How about we talk about a Witch Doctor/Shadow Hunter class?
    Yes!
    How did you like my class concept in page 108?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    I would fucking kill for a Shadow Hunter class.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Shadow Hunters are more like shamans, actually but have vastly different capabilities in a lot of ways. A class that finally utilizes voodoo as a power source would be fantastic.
    Now, that's the spirit!
    How'd you like my class concept in page 108?

    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    I think the biggest issue is making something distinct enough so that it isn't just a variety of Shaman.

    I love the idea. The Witch Doctor in D3 was frickin' awesome, and I'd love to see something stylistically like that in WoW. But that would step on the Shaman's toes quite a bit.

    Alternately I'd love to see something based off of Bwonsamdi. I've never been a fan of Necromancers, but the sheer style and fun he brings could make for an amazing spin on a Necromancer/Witch Doctor type of class.
    Look at my Shadow Hunter concept in page 108 and how i resolved the "stepping on the toes" in page 111.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Rock-It! Turret
    25 yd range
    Instant 10 sec recharge
    2 Charges
    Summons a Rock-It! Turret at your feet for 15 sec that shoots rockets at a nearby enemy within 25 yards every 2 sec, dealing 3 Fire damage.

    Find an engineering item that does the exact same thing as that ability. Range, cooldown, charges, etc.
    Gnomish Flame Turret
    Item Level 27
    Use: Quickly constructs a gnomish flame turret at your feet that will nearly always attack nearby enemies. The turret falls apart after 45 sec. (1 Min Cooldown)
    Requires Level 24
    Requires Outland Engineering (25)
    Max Stack: 10

  20. #3300
    Quote Originally Posted by Unbelievable View Post
    Maybe, because the Diablo III Monk is light-based, rather than chinese based. His accent sounds more like a Draenei, than an asian. But, i totally agree. Windwalker Monk gameplay should take inspiration from it. For example, in HotS we have Chen representing the Brewmaster, Lili somewhat representing the Mistweaver and Karazhim is the only one left to represent the Windwalker Monk.



    Official Forums.
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    That wasn't my point. My point was to expose your bias towards Island Expedition AI over Mekkatorque which, has no justification whatsoever.

    You can't center an entire expansion over a race of goodie-two-shoes, especially having that kind of reception from the playerbase. Even the Orcs aesthetic in WoD got tiresome after a while.

    Do you realize that by making it a form, you invalidate the gameplay of a Tinker outside of the mech form? What's the point in that?

    Well, not in HotS it isn't. Otherwise, it wouldn't have a cooldown, and its benefits wouldn't last X seconds.

    Yes but, unlike the WC3 Robo-Goblin which, has a downside, your flawless, permanent, mech comes from your fantasy to play as Iron Man. Players want to play inside a mech, as well as outside of it.

    Denialism or not - knowing you and how you operate - I'd put my money on you "rigging the elections".

    Well, no they're not. It's quickly being drowned by your constant ramble about Tinkers and you dismissing their ideas. So, this thread appears to be "democratic" but, it's actually governed by you. You just took control of someone else's thread



    Which, was the case for every class before entering the game.



    Well, you do the same thing (see above). What's the point?



    Blizzard's concept does not include the Vulpera.
    Blizzard's concept does not invalidate the claw pack with a constant mech.
    Blizzard's concept does not invalidate Gnomish Engineering.



    Brewmaster vendors weren't Pandaren.



    Yes!
    How did you like my class concept in page 108?



    Now, that's the spirit!
    How'd you like my class concept in page 108?



    Look at my Shadow Hunter concept in page 108 and how i resolved the "stepping on the toes" in page 111.



    Gnomish Flame Turret
    Item Level 27
    Use: Quickly constructs a gnomish flame turret at your feet that will nearly always attack nearby enemies. The turret falls apart after 45 sec. (1 Min Cooldown)
    Requires Level 24
    Requires Outland Engineering (25)
    Max Stack: 10
    we wouldnt have to look so far back if we didnt have to deal with pointless arguments with a screeching tinker

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