1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Gameplay. If you notice, there's no Gnome or Goblin warriors in lore.



    See above.
    There's also no Forsaken warriors in lore. Does that mean they don't exist? Come on, dude. Your logic is exceptionally flawed. And once again, there's other races that are tinkers. Nightborne, draenei, orcs, and blood elves immediately come to mind. Though I know it's futile to say that because you will move the goalposts like you always do and come up with some insane reasoning for why those races shouldn't get tinker. But what it really boils down to is your bias for small races and you don't care if it will piss the majority of players off if the exceptionally unpopular races are the only ones that can roll a newly introduced class.

  2. #302
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The logic being that since the smaller races lack physical strength, they make up for it in brain power, and thus use technology to even the odds.
    The Vulpera are characterized by being resourceful and clever but their "cleverness" is about surviving in harsh conditions not being technologically adept like gnomes, goblins and mechagnomes are defined by. Orcs have shown more inclination for technology with basically everything related to the AU blackrock and iron horde technology (even if they were introduced to it through the blackfuse company), the Draenei with their crystal powered technology.

  3. #303
    Id like to see expansion of the current class's more than new ones,

  4. #304
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    There's also no Forsaken warriors in lore. Does that mean they don't exist?
    More than likely.

    Come on, dude. Your logic is exceptionally flawed. And once again, there's other races that are tinkers. Nightborne, draenei, orcs, and blood elves immediately come to mind. Though I know it's futile to say that because you will move the goalposts like you always do and come up with some insane reasoning for why those races shouldn't get tinker. But what it really boils down to is your bias for small races and you don't care if it will piss the majority of players off if the exceptionally unpopular races are the only ones that can roll a newly introduced class.
    Only Goblins and Gnomes have groups actually called Tinkers. None of those other races do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    The Vulpera are characterized by being resourceful and clever but their "cleverness" is about surviving in harsh conditions not being technologically adept like gnomes, goblins and mechagnomes are defined by. Orcs have shown more inclination for technology with basically everything related to the AU blackrock and iron horde technology (even if they were introduced to it through the blackfuse company), the Draenei with their crystal powered technology.
    Iron Horde tech was Goblin tech (Blackfuse company) built by Orc blacksmiths, and it was mainly based around the Iron Star, a device invented by Helix Blackfuse, a Goblin inventor. The Orcs themselves didn't develop the tech.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    More than likely.



    Only Goblins and Gnomes have groups actually called Tinkers. None of those other races do.

    - - - Updated - - -



    Iron Horde tech was Goblin tech (Blackfuse company) built by Orc blacksmiths, and it was mainly based around the Iron Star, a device invented by Helix Blackfuse, a Goblin inventor. The Orcs themselves didn't develop the tech.
    So because other races don't call themselves tinkers....that means they're not? That is by far the most asinine logic I have EVER seen you use. I'm borderline impressed. They don't typically call them demon hunters, they call them Illidari. I can't recall a single time someone was called a "hunter" in lore. It's always been ranger to my knowledge. So saying that because no other race can be tinkers because they don't use the title is beyond insane. They don't need to have the title to be the class, dude. Other races can be and ARE tinkers. Just stop.

  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yes, because such a spec really doesn't exist in the Druid class. Balance is based more around the Sun and the Moon. Feral and Guardian revolve more around their animal forms. The only spec where that really fits is Restoration, since Restoration is full of healing spells based around plants and flowers. However, Restoration is a healing spec, not a damage spec.
    Druids use nature magic, the spell would be nature magic based. It would fit. You're be contrarian for the sake of it.

    A building versus a Flower, which provides a barrier. Robots as opposed to spores which attack with weapons before they explode. Also the robots don't "drift" around, they actually chase after the target.
    Barrier = health within the mechanics of the game. Give the flower a health bar equal to the the health bar of the building and they're functionally identical in that regard. The spores floating vs the robots walking is functionally identical. The point is, they would both function as a summoned minion (or whatever you want to call it) with a health bar, spawning smaller homing minions that go after the target and do damage when they catch up.

    Arguing that they're not the same theme mechanically, or from a game play perspective then you're being intellectually dishonest. The only difference between those two abilities is the theme, their game play is identical.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    More than likely.
    This is absurd.....

  7. #307
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So in other words nothing in lore states that that is a Holy spell, you're merely assuming it is.

    Well, according to the game, Atonement isn't a Holy spell.
    I think we already established that game mechanics are not lore. Also, you're basically saying that Fingers of Frost, Hot Streak, Hungering Void, and many other abilities are "physical spells".

    No it doesn't. It also doesn't help that that idea sounds rather stupid.
    You're not exactly a reliable barometer for what is stupid or not. And considering all you did to 'counter' my idea was to say "it's stupid", shows you don't have anything to counter it with. "Well, I think it's stupid" is the kind of response that typically comes from small children.

    Yet we have multiple mechanics from the Tinker heroes in WC3 and HotS which are easily translatable to WoW and don't exist in any of the classes. Pocket Factory is one of those mechanics, Gazlowe's turret system in HotS would be another.
    Just because those mechanics don't currently exist in the current class line-up, doesn't mean they can't be added to existing classes in the future. I even gave a perfectly valid example of your "pocket factory" mechanics for the druid class.

    Which isn't really the same comparison at all. You're looking for an opening in order to give Necromancers design space in the class lineup. Monks and Death Knights didn't need to look for design space openings because their space was wide open. We already have a Necromancer class in the game.
    Irrelevant. We already had a mobile, agile class in the game, but that didn't stop the monk class from being added. We already had two mobile, agile classes in the game, one of which could tank, but that didn't stop the demon hunter class from being added. And, I remind you, "necromancer" isn't a mechanic. It's a theme. And themes can be shared. Hell, even mechanics can be shared.

    The point still stands though. The idea that Blizzard would design an entire class or spec after Diablo is laughable.
    And this a complete strawman, since I never said anything about "designing an entire class or spec after Diablo". I simply pointed out mechanics that look to be heavily inspired by the Diablo 2 game.

    And when he popped up in WC3 as a Necromancer he wasn't using any of those abilities, he was using Necromancy.
    And in Warcraft 3 mages didn't have fire abilities. Mages were exclusively frost and arcane. Druids could only shapeshift into one kind of animal depending on the group they were part of. Death knights didn't have blood or frost abilities. Priests didn't have access to shadow magic. And so on and so forth.

    In WoW Kel'thuzad in Lich form definitely doesn't use any fire or arcane abilities either. So in what iteration is a Necromancer using fire or arcane magic?
    The time in which Kel'Thuzad was still a human researching necromancy.

    Death Knights have access to a magic school called Plague, which is a combination of shadow and nature magic. Poison is also in the nature school of magic.
    Oh, you mean that singular ability they have that deal "plague" damage? There are three things pointing to dishonesty here:
    • First, it's a weapon attack. Not a magic spell. That's like saying priests cannot have holy magic because the paladin has "Hammer of Wrath".
    • Second, like I pointed out, it's one single ability, and yet you use it deny a hypothetical necromancer class a poison spec because of that. But the hunters having a handful of mechanical-based skills somehow doesn't preclude a class from using the mechanical theme.
    • Third, you're implying that "plague" and "poison" are the same thing because both deal nature damage. So, is "plague" the same thing as lightning, because both are "nature" magic? That plague and earth magic are the same thing because both are "nature" magic? You're basically equating that the death knight's magic is in the same ballpark as druid and shaman magic.

    Pocket Factory, Rock-It Turret, Grav-O-Bomb 3000, Mech piloting, etc.
    This heavily implies that you don't really read what other people say. Let me refresh your mind:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Again, Shadow magic in WoW has demonstrated in multiple cases to be different mechanically than Holy magic.
    Give examples.
    So, how does "pocket factory", "rock-it turret", "grav-o-bomb 3000" and "mech piloting" prove that shadow magic is "mechanically different" than holy magic?

    That's fine, but that is the most logical direction,
    No, it's not. You are just claiming it is because you want to back up your original assertion. You can't back up assertions with more assertions, that's like the gag you'd see in old children cartoons like Tom & Jerry where they'd stand on a stack of two bricks, and could go higher and higher by grabbing the first brick and putting it above the second.

    You have yet to provide any examples of any Necromancers using poison.
    I have provided examples of aspiring necromancers being taught alchemy from a teacher that seems to favor poison and fire. From then on we can extrapolate that poison is a skill they could have, just like you like to claim that an entire spec about vampirism for the death knight was extrapolated from a single line talking about a "vampiric runeblade". It's not even the death knights that were vampiric, but their weapon.

    Which they do. So what's your issue?
    Then warlocks shouldn't have fire because mages have fire. Priests couldn't use holy magic because paladins have holy magic. And etc and etc. Death knights using vampiric blood magic to tank in no way disqualifies a hypothetical class idea from using blood magic for DPS or healing. Hell, it doesn't even really disqualifies them if they use blood magic to tank, too, because paladins and priests both can heal with holy magic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    A spec that shoots beams of nature and arcane magic to the point where it's affectionately called "laser chicken", suddenly gets an ability where it drops a flower that spits out "spores"....
    Who also summons trees out of nowhere? And could summon insects? And create a torrent of water to push foes away? And create whirlwinds? Also, the theme of the druid is nature, so spawning a flower fits the theme.

    The ironic thing is that isn't even the same mechanic as pocket factory.
    An ability that summons a spawner entity that constantly spawn slow-moving minions that detonate upon reaching a target is not the same mechanic as an ability that summons a spawner entity that constantly spawn slow-moving minions that detonate upon reaching a target?

    Really?
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  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Only Goblins and Gnomes have groups actually called Tinkers. None of those other races do.
    Why does this technology class need to be purely defined by how Goblins and Gnomes make theirs, WoW has plenty of forms of technology from Goblin/Gnome steam tech, to the magic powered technology of the Nightborne and Draenei, pigeonholing into being purely Gnome/Goblin themed seems like an excuse just to restrict it to those races.Kul Tiran and Zandalari have a different aesthetic while still being druids, Zandalari prelates are still paladins, same applies to Draenei artificers, Gnome/Goblin Tinkers and Mag'har Engineers who can all fit into an technology themed class (whether it's called Tinker or something else)

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Iron Horde tech was Goblin tech (Blackfuse company) built by Orc blacksmiths, and it was mainly based around the Iron Star, a device invented by Helix Blackfuse, a Goblin inventor. The Orcs themselves didn't develop the tech.
    Yes they were introduced to it through the blackfuse company but how does that restrict them from having a class themed around such technology?, dwarves were introduced to the light by Humans and they have paladins and priests, draenei were introduced to shamanism by the Broken and they can be Shamans.

    the Mag'har (from their perspective) have been using the iron horde technology for over 30 years, Draenei have had artificers from before they left Argus, Nightborne have been using their Arcane constructs since sometime after the shield was placed over Suramar.

  9. #309
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    A building versus a Flower, which provides a barrier.
    In other words, a coat of paint. You don't even know if said building would provide a barrier to begin with. And even if it did, then just make the flower big enough. Done.

    Robots as opposed to spores which attack with weapons before they explode.
    "Robots vs spore" is nothing but a coat of paint. And spores have some nasty spikes they can use to attack.

    Also the robots don't "drift" around, they actually chase after the target.
    And, in this case, so would the spore. I use the word "drift" because they float in the air. Not only I never said that they drift aimlessly, but I specifically mentioned they drift toward a target:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    to summon a big flower that constantly releases spores that drift toward a nearby target
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    Why does this technology class need to be purely defined by how Goblins and Gnomes make theirs, WoW has plenty of forms of technology from Goblin/Gnome steam tech, to the magic powered technology of the Nightborne and Draenei, pigeonholing into being purely Gnome/Goblin themed seems like an excuse just to restrict it to those races.Kul Tiran and Zandalari have a different aesthetic while still being druids, Zandalari prelates are still paladins, same applies to Draenei artificers, Gnome/Goblin Tinkers and Mag'har Engineers who can all fit into an technology themed class (whether it's called Tinker or something else)



    Yes they were introduced to it through the blackfuse company but how does that restrict them from having a class themed around such technology?, dwarves were introduced to the light by Humans and they have paladins and priests, draenei were introduced to shamanism by the Broken and they can be Shamans.

    the Mag'har (from their perspective) have been using the iron horde technology for over 30 years, Draenei have had artificers from before they left Argus, Nightborne have been using their Arcane constructs since sometime after the shield was placed over Suramar.
    Because he has the mentality that unless a race INVENTS things, they can't be tinkers. Though he disregards draenei, blood elves, and Nightborne despite them actively inventing their own technology.

  11. #311
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Iron Horde tech was Goblin tech (Blackfuse company) built by Orc blacksmiths, and it was mainly based around the Iron Star, a device invented by Helix Blackfuse, a Goblin inventor. The Orcs themselves didn't develop the tech.
    But vulpera don't have any tech whatsoever nor have they invented any and what they learn will be what the goblins teach them. But that doesn't disqualify them from being tinkers... why?
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
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  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Because he has the mentality that unless a race INVENTS things, they can't be tinkers. Though he disregards draenei, blood elves, and Nightborne despite them actively inventing their own technology.
    I don't get this when being taught how is the reason why races can be certain classes, Night Elves taught the Tauren how to be Druids, Humans taught Dwarves about the light, Pandaren taught everyone how to be Monks, from this why couldn't Mag'har be Tinkers when a big part of the Iron Horde was using Goblin derived technology.

    Kul Tirans invented their own form the Druidism and they're still called Druids, Zandalari invented Prelates and they're still Paladins, from this logic we could easily say Draenei invented their crystal using Artificers so they can be Tinkers.

  13. #313
    Tinkers are lame as shit and you can play about 50000000 different games to throw bombs or shoot people. Hell Survival is right there!

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But vulpera don't have any tech whatsoever nor have they invented any and what they learn will be what the goblins teach them. But that doesn't disqualify them from being tinkers... why?
    He won't have a proper answer because, as usual, his logic has holes you can drive a truck through. He really just needs to admit that the only logical reason he has for the races he pushes for is that he likes those races. There's no other logic behind it.

  15. #315
    Necromancer, period.
    And that compilation on OP is neat!

  16. #316
    I'll never understand why people want necromancer.
    Isn't that summoning class?
    Have you seen how badly designed and poorly represented demonology is?
    And with demonology you have cool FEL magic with freaking DEMONS and DEMONS COMMANDERS
    Why would you want to summon feeble, stupid and mindless ghouls/abominations/whatever?

    Or am I missing something here?
    Unless we go loli-anime-bone/skull based spells-kind of a necromancer which is as dumb as boneshield is for dk

  17. #317
    I've wanted Tinker for a very long time, but I have the feeling that they'll introduce something stupid like dark ranger or some shit.

  18. #318
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shedaar View Post
    I'll never understand why people want necromancer.
    Isn't that summoning class?
    Have you seen how badly designed and poorly represented demonology is?
    And with demonology you have cool FEL magic with freaking DEMONS and DEMONS COMMANDERS
    Why would you want to summon feeble, stupid and mindless ghouls/abominations/whatever?

    Or am I missing something here?
    Unless we go loli-anime-bone/skull based spells-kind of a necromancer which is as dumb as boneshield is for dk
    Demonology being "badly designed" and "poorly represented" is not really a relevant fact, unless you're implying that the necromancer would have the exact same gameplay as the demonology warlock, which I can practically guarantee you that they wouldn't.

    Actually, never mind. The very next two sentences in your post show that you're just here to bait. And I fell for it. "cool fel magic", "feeble, stupid, mindless ghouls". Bah.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
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  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Actually, never mind. The very next two sentences in your post show that you're just here to bait. And I fell for it. "cool fel magic", "feeble, stupid, mindless ghouls". Bah.
    I'm not here to bait, sorry you feel that way.
    I'm just wondering what people see in necro class, can you elaborate?

    I have seen several necromancer topics on this forum and they always revolve around curses (shadow priest/affli warlock?) summoning (demo wrl? unholy dk army of the dead/ghoul?) and nothing really convincing why necromancer should stand out like "Tinker" (which I'm not the biggest fan of) or "Dragonsworn" < at least these 2 have their distinct identities

    EDIT:
    And I meant "feeble, stupid, mindless ghouls" because I haven't seen any cool undead monster that you could possibly summon that wouldn't be half-rotten, bad looking, pixelated undead zombie.
    I don't imagine necromancer would summon undead dragons, would he?

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    Why does this technology class need to be purely defined by how Goblins and Gnomes make theirs, WoW has plenty of forms of technology from Goblin/Gnome steam tech, to the magic powered technology of the Nightborne and Draenei, pigeonholing into being purely Gnome/Goblin themed seems like an excuse just to restrict it to those races.Kul Tiran and Zandalari have a different aesthetic while still being druids, Zandalari prelates are still paladins, same applies to Draenei artificers, Gnome/Goblin Tinkers and Mag'har Engineers who can all fit into an technology themed class (whether it's called Tinker or something else)



    Yes they were introduced to it through the blackfuse company but how does that restrict them from having a class themed around such technology?, dwarves were introduced to the light by Humans and they have paladins and priests, draenei were introduced to shamanism by the Broken and they can be Shamans.

    the Mag'har (from their perspective) have been using the iron horde technology for over 30 years, Draenei have had artificers from before they left Argus, Nightborne have been using their Arcane constructs since sometime after the shield was placed over Suramar.
    artificers are magic based not tech based.
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

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