If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[Triceron]

Evasion abilities for tanking specs and some DPS specs within the agility based classes. Not surprising, since Brewmasters and Demon Hunters in WC3 both had passive dodge bonuses. Timewarp was added to give Mages utility, as was the Hunter version. Abilities like Bloodlust and Evasion can be shared by multiple classes since it provides utility. Abilities like Metamorphosis or Demonic Pets or Beast Pets are class defining attributes and won't be shared.

I'd agree here. Metamorphosis is very class defining, which is no surprise why it was taken out of the Warlock kit. As I've said, Xelnath himself admits to have taken the concept too far (not regret, just admit) and Blizzard has addressed this in Legion. I'm not sure why you think that bringing it back in line with how it was in the RTS games has to do with Demon Hunters. Warlocks could have kept Dark Apotheosis if it were a strong part of their class fantasy; and frankly Blizzard doesn't think so.

We're talking about a Class that never should have had Demon Form in the first place having it taken out and replaced with something far better fitting. I see no problems here. I mean, if you are saying there's fans who miss the old Metamorphosis on Warlocks and want it back, then they can wait for Classic Wrath.

The fact that the majority of the Monk's ability lists consist of punches and kicks instead of nature spells disproves that notion.

And the fact that the Necromancer uses spellcasting and alchemy instead of Rune-based casting makes them different from Death Knights at a conceptual and Class Fantasy level.

What does the fact that the DK wears plate have to do with it's summoning abilities? UH DKs can summon a lot of minions at any given time, and they're 1-2 abilities away from being fully ranged.

Nothing. Summoning isn't what prevents a Necromancer from being in the game, there can be multiple summoner classes, else the DK wouldn't exist because we already had Warlocks.

Also what really separates Warlocks from Necrolytes? Summoning skeletons instead of imps?

And Elementals are just Elementals, whether a Mage or a Shaman summons them. Weren't you the one who made the distinction that Shamans don't summon Water Elementals? Well Necromancer Player Class wouldn't summon Imps and Succubi.

But Apotheosis was. Unfortunately since it was a demon form and the concept of "Transforms into a Demon" is a conerstone of the Demon Hunter concept, that had to go as well.

It had two problems.
1- It never really fit the Warlock class fantasy. What mortal Warlock in Warcraft RTS games had abilities to turn into tanking Demon Forms? None.
2- It was a glyph with janky mechanics. They doubled down on getting rid of glyphs of that sort of power across the board. This included the heavy armor bonuses granted by Boomkins and the Pet Tanking Hunter gameplay that people were using around the same time. It wasn't unique to DA.

Which is semantics. Tinkers are a type of engineer, so what type of engineer are you talking about? The NPCs on the Island Expeditions are clearly not profession engineers because they're not using profession gadgets. They're not (entirely) like Mekkatorque because they're not all inside Mechs, so what type of engineer are they?

But they aren't Tinkers. It's not semantics if they aren't Tinkers. They're just Engineers, and listed as so.

That is true. Which is why I lean towards the Tinker being mech-based. My point is that if Blizzard wants to utilize the claw pack, their artists/designers could have a field day with it and make it look interesting.

Yep, and only if they can make it 100% optional, I think that would be great. It should be an optional thing like the Covenant Back displays.

You make the character a chromatic dragon. Chromatic Dragons can take on the power of any dragon flight.

Wrathion isn't a Chromatic Dragon though, and there are no cool Chromatic Dragon characters to champion that cause. If we're gonna talk about how cool Wrathion is and in the same breath say it was a missed opportunity adding Deathwing instead of Wrathion, aren't we just missing the mark again by bait-and-switching a badass Black Dragon with a Chromatic that no one's really asking for?

[Teriz]

There is only ONE chromatic dragon in existence in the lore. Literally one. And he's locked away.

As if Blizzard simply could write more into existence.....

[Revamp Man]

As if Blizzard simply could write more into existence.....

and they could simply write the dragons into empowering mortals

[Teriz]

I'd agree here. Metamorphosis is very class defining, which is no surprise why it was taken out of the Warlock kit. As I've said, Xelnath himself admits to have taken the concept too far (not regret, just admit) and Blizzard has addressed this in Legion. I'm not sure why you think that bringing it back in line with how it was in the RTS games has to do with Demon Hunters. Warlocks could have kept Dark Apotheosis if it were a strong part of their class fantasy; and frankly Blizzard doesn't think so.

We're talking about a Class that never should have had Demon Form in the first place having it taken out and replaced with something far better fitting. I see no problems here. I mean, if you are saying there's fans who miss the old Metamorphosis on Warlocks and want it back, then they can wait for Classic Wrath.

Dark Apotheosis turned the Warlock into essentially a Dreadlord given its abilities. Given the fact that none of those abilities moved over to Demon Hunter metamorphosis simply shows how scorched earth Blizzard went with its removal. It also should serve as an example of what would happen if Necromancers were ever introduced as a class.

And the fact that the Necromancer uses spellcasting and alchemy instead of Rune-based casting makes them different from Death Knights at a conceptual and Class Fantasy level.

In gameplay terms there's no difference.

Nothing. Summoning isn't what prevents a Necromancer from being in the game, there can be multiple summoner classes, else the DK wouldn't exist because we already had Warlocks.

DKs exist BECAUSE they're wearing plate and fight in melee. That makes them opposite of the frail (yet tanky) Warlock that relies on its pets and DoTs for survival. Necromancers have the problem of being like Warlocks in gameplay style, and like DKs in ability thematics. It's a pincer that there's no way out of. It also doesn't help that you can place any Necromancer ability in the DK class with little issue.

And Elementals are just Elementals, whether a Mage or a Shaman summons them. Weren't you the one who made the distinction that Shamans don't summon Water Elementals? Well Necromancer Player Class wouldn't summon Imps and Succubi.

No, they would summon skeletons, ghouls, Aboms, etc. Pretty much exactly what DKs can currently summon. I'm simply saying if you're like Ielenia and just have to have cloth and staffs, then roll a Warlock and use Imps and Succubi.

It had two problems.
1- It never really fit the Warlock class fantasy. What mortal Warlock in Warcraft RTS games had abilities to turn into tanking Demon Forms? None.
2- It was a glyph with janky mechanics. They doubled down on getting rid of glyphs of that sort of power across the board. This included the heavy armor bonuses granted by Boomkins and the Pet Tanking Hunter gameplay that people were using around the same time. It wasn't unique to DA.

I don't disagree.

But they aren't Tinkers. It's not semantics if they aren't Tinkers. They're just Engineers, and listed as so.

Why aren't they Tinkers? They're using Tinker abilities from HotS. We both agreed that the WoW Tinker wouldn't use the Claw Pack, but we have Gazlowe in the mech anyway. They're not using engineering profession abilities. They're not using any NPC abilities we've seen in WoW, so why aren't they Tinkers? Because the game doesn't explicitly call them that?

Wrathion isn't a Chromatic Dragon though, and there are no cool Chromatic Dragon characters to champion that cause. If we're gonna talk about how cool Wrathion is and in the same breath say it was a missed opportunity adding Deathwing instead of Wrathion, aren't we just missing the mark again by bait-and-switching a badass Black Dragon with a Chromatic that no one's really asking for?

But Wrathion would be the same type of being that we are; A dragon disguising themselves as a mortal. Our characters just happen to be of a different, yet neutral flight. Further, as a Chromatic dragon, you can CHOOSE to be a black dragon if you wish.

- - - Updated - - -

and they could simply write the dragons into empowering mortals

Which isn't as interesting as actually being a dragon. I personally rather be the hammer than the nail.

[Revamp Man]

Dark Apotheosis turned the Warlock into essentially a Dreadlord given its abilities. Given the fact that none of those abilities moved over to Demon Hunter metamorphosis simply shows how scorched earth Blizzard went with its removal. It also should serve as an example of what would happen if Necromancers were ever introduced as a class.



In gameplay terms there's no difference.



DKs exist BECAUSE they're wearing plate and fight in melee. That makes them opposite of the frail (yet tanky) Warlock that relies on its pets and DoTs for survival. Necromancers have the problem of being like Warlocks in gameplay style, and like DKs in ability thematics. It's a pincer that there's no way out of. It also doesn't help that you can place any Necromancer ability in the DK class with little issue.



No, they would summon skeletons, ghouls, Aboms, etc. Pretty much exactly what DKs can currently summon. I'm simply saying if you're like Ielenia and just have to have cloth and staffs, then roll a Warlock and use Imps and Succubi.



I don't disagree.



Why aren't they Tinkers? They're using Tinker abilities from HotS. We both agreed that the WoW Tinker wouldn't use the Claw Pack, but we have Gazlowe in the mech anyway. They're not using engineering profession abilities. They're not using any NPC abilities we've seen in WoW, so why aren't they Tinkers? Because the game doesn't explicitly call them that?



But Wrathion would be the same type of being that we are; A dragon disguising themselves as a mortal. Our characters just happen to be of a different, yet neutral flight. Further, as a Chromatic dragon, you can CHOOSE to be a black dragon if you wish.

- - - Updated - - -



Which isn't as interesting as actually being a dragon. I personally rather be the hammer than the nail.

hmmm
if only blizzard had a track record of the player being empowered by bigger stronger beings
oh wait
demon hunters are empowered by absorbing demons
death knights are empowered by the lich king
its almost like they do

also idk how to get you to understand that a dragon is a race
humans are a race
elves are a race
gnomes are a race
warriors are a class
tinkers are a class
mages are a class
dragons are a race

so instead of trying to do "your concept sucks" just take part in the discussion because you are like every other poster in this thread
you dont work for blizzard
you have no say in what will or wont happen
you are nothing more than another nerd sitting here in a thread talking about class ideas
you are however the only one that seems to be obsessed with the discussion covering midget mechanics

[Triceron]

Dark Apotheosis turned the Warlock into essentially a Dreadlord given its abilities.

Not really. I'd say Blood DK's are more like Dreadlords than Dark Apotheosis.

In gameplay terms there's no difference.

If we're talking gameplay then we're talking about comparing a Spellcaster/Healer to a Melee DPS/Tank class. They're as different as can be.

DKs exist BECAUSE they're wearing plate and fight in melee. That makes them opposite of the frail (yet tanky) Warlock that relies on its pets and DoTs for survival. Necromancers have the problem of being like Warlocks in gameplay style, and like DKs in ability thematics. It's a pincer that there's no way out of. It also doesn't help that you can place any Necromancer ability in the DK class with little issue.

Demon Hunters are the 4th Agi-based Leather-wearing class in the game, the 3rd which can be a Tank and 3rd which can dual wield DPS. I don't think there's any issues with the Necromancer fulfilling its class fantasy. I mean, how can you say the yave the problem of being like Warlocks when there's no Necromancer gameplay in WoW to compare it to? If Necromancers get a heal spec using alchemical means of Necromancy (as we've seen in Naxxramas), then they're already immediately different from Warlocks and Demon Hunters.

No, they would summon skeletons, ghouls, Aboms, etc. Pretty much exactly what DKs can currently summon. I'm simply saying if you're like Ielenia and just have to have cloth and staffs, then roll a Warlock and use Imps and Succubi.

Neither satisfies the Necromancer Class Fantasy. And no, I don't think Necromancers have to have cloth and staffs. I'm fairly open to whatever Blizzard deems fitting, just like they added Shadow spec to Priests and a Melee spec to Hunters to shake things up. I'm actually more interested in exploring the themes we've seen in Naxxramas formally applied to a Necromancer Class. Spiders, constructs, plagues and poisons and alchemical/necromantic Healing.

Why aren't they Tinkers?

Because they are literally Engineers. No mention of being Tinkers anywhere.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Island_Expedition

Razak's Roughriders: Gnomish soldiers and engineers (Razak Ironsides, Dizzy Dina, Tally Zapnabber).
Gazlowe's Greasemonkeys: Engineers (Gazlowe, Skaggit, Lady Sena).

The NPC abilities you're referring to? They're Engineer NPC abilities. That makes them Engineering Abilities.

But Wrathion would be the same type of being that we are; A dragon disguising themselves as a mortal. Our characters just happen to be of a different, yet neutral flight. Further, as a Chromatic dragon, you can CHOOSE to be a black dragon if you wish.

Chromatic Dragons aren't Wrathion though, and the coolest Chromatic Dragon known had 5 heads. It's quite a big bait and switch.

I totally get what you're trying to say, but it's like saying you could play as a Dragonsworn that was actually an Old God in disguise using its tentacle to pose as your mortal character posing as a Dragon posing as a mortal. No one's really asking for that though. I think people just want to play as an actual Dragonflight- based Dragon, or at the very least, a Mortal who has/uses the powers of a Dragon. Chromatic aren't on many people's lips when anyone brings up Dragonsworn.

[Teriz]

hmmm
if only blizzard had a track record of the player being empowered by bigger stronger beings
oh wait
demon hunters are empowered by absorbing demons
death knights are empowered by the lich king
its almost like they do

also idk how to get you to understand that a dragon is a race
humans are a race
elves are a race
gnomes are a race
warriors are a class
tinkers are a class
mages are a class
dragons are a race

so instead of trying to do "your concept sucks" just take part in the discussion because you are like every other poster in this thread
you dont work for blizzard
you have no say in what will or wont happen
you are nothing more than another nerd sitting here in a thread talking about class ideas
you are however the only one that seems to be obsessed with the discussion covering midget mechanics

Here's the deal; Your concept of Dragons empowering mortals sounds like covenants. So guess what that means; it won't be a class, it'll be an expansion feature. Which is fine, because frankly dragon-style covenants make more sense than a "Dragon Knight" class.

[Depakote]

It'd be bad, that's what it'd be.

[Teriz]

Not really. I'd say Blood DK's are more like Dreadlords than Dark Apotheosis.

Dark Apotheosis had Sleep, and the Carrion Swarm ability. Warlocks already had infernal. That's the entire Dreadlord ability set minus Vampiric Aura.

If we're talking gameplay then we're talking about comparing a Spellcaster/Healer to a Melee DPS/Tank class. They're as different as can be.

On what basis is a Necromancer a healer? Do we have any evidence of Necromancers healing anyone but themselves? FYI, that's what DKs do to help them tank.

Demon Hunters are the 4th Agi-based Leather-wearing class in the game, the 3rd which can be a Tank and 3rd which can dual wield DPS. I don't think there's any issues with the Necromancer fulfilling its class fantasy. I mean, how can you say the yave the problem of being like Warlocks when there's no Necromancer gameplay in WoW to compare it to? If Necromancers get a heal spec using alchemical means of Necromancy (as we've seen in Naxxramas), then they're already immediately different from Warlocks and Demon Hunters.

Because the entire basis of Necromancers is summoning undead minions. That's the basis of the DK class as well. Both use blood magic, both have connection to frost magic via the Lich, both use unholy/corruptive magics. What would be the difference between DK diseases and a Necromancer's poison ability? Different color damage ticks?

Neither satisfies the Necromancer Class Fantasy. And no, I don't think Necromancers have to have cloth and staffs. I'm fairly open to whatever Blizzard deems fitting, just like they added Shadow spec to Priests and a Melee spec to Hunters to shake things up. I'm actually more interested in exploring the themes we've seen in Naxxramas formally applied to a Necromancer Class. Spiders, constructs, plagues and poisons and alchemical/necromantic Healing.

I disagree, the DK class fills the Necromancer class fantasy quite well. I mean what's missing? That you have to fight in melee instead of range? That you're wearing plate instead of cloth?

Why aren't they Tinkers?

Because they are literally Engineers.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Island_Expedition

Razak's Roughriders: Gnomish soldiers and engineers (Razak Ironsides, Dizzy Dina, Tally Zapnabber).
Gazlowe's Greasemonkeys: Engineers (Gazlowe, Skaggit, Lady Sena).

The NPC abilities you're referring to? They're Engineer NPC abilities. That makes them Engineering Abilities.

NPC abilities pulled from the Tinker in HotS, which makes them unlike any other group of engineers in WoW.

Chromatic Dragons aren't Wrathion though, and the coolest Chromatic Dragon known had 5 heads. It's quite a big bait and switch.

I totally get what you're trying to say, but it's like saying you could play as a Dragonsworn that was actually an Old God in disguise using its tentacle to pose as your mortal character posing as a Dragon posing as a mortal. No one's really asking for that though. I think people just want to play as a Dragon, or at most, a Mortal who has/uses the powers of a Dragon.

You're a Chromatic dragon that can take on the abilities of any dragon flight. What's complicated about that?

Also "mortals getting empowered by dragons" sounds like Covenant 2.0.

[Ielenia]

Fine, the damage component was removed though, so either way it was altered beyond simply just the name.

Yes. But you cannot prove that the damage component was removed because of the death knight. It could easily be argued it was done for balance purposes, much like many spell abilities that were removed in this game in between expansions.

Yep, but they do it differently than how Death Knights and Necromancers would do it.

Didn't you argue that they do exactly like death knights and necromancers do it, since you were arguing that the hunter now possesses "access to necromancy" because of it, when we were talking about the dark ranger and raising undead minions?

Necromancers would do it exactly the way DKs do it.

Just like paladins heal and resurrect exactly the way priests do? Sarcasm aside, you don't know how necromancers do it because the necromancer class does not exist.

Thank you for finally admitting that Hunters can do Necromancy.

I did not admit to anything. I simply pointed out the inconsistencies in your argumentations.

- - - Updated - - -

As if Blizzard simply could write more into existence.....

But Blizzard cannot write in more bards into existence?

Also: still waiting for your replies, here.

[Teriz]

Yes. But you cannot prove that the damage component was removed because of the death knight. It could easily be argued it was done for balance purposes, much like many spell abilities that were removed in this game in between expansions.

You're free to believe that it wasn't removed for that reason if you wish.

Didn't you argue that they do exactly like death knights and necromancers do it, since you were arguing that the hunter now possesses "access to necromancy" because of it, when we were talking about the dark ranger and raising undead minions?

I do believe that I said that controlling the undead was a form of necromancy. Hunters control undead beasts through taming them, Necromancers and DKs can summon undead and control them.

Just like paladins heal and resurrect exactly the way priests do? Sarcasm aside, you don't know how necromancers do it because the necromancer class does not exist.

Sure we do. We have Death Knights which possess Necromancer abilities. In fact they possess the Necromancer Raise Dead ability.

I did not admit to anything. I simply pointed out the inconsistencies in your argumentations.

Where's the inconsistency?

But Blizzard cannot write in more bards into existence?

Sure they could. However, considering that they have never created a Bard hero or Bard class in any of their media or games since the beginning of Warcraft, I wouldn't count on it ever happening.

[Triceron]

On what basis is a Necromancer a healer? Do we have any evidence of Necromancers healing

They were traditionally the Orc counterpart to the Cleric/Priest in the RTS games.

Instead of a traditional heal ability, they had spells like Unholy Armor that prevented damage on a unit. In the RTS it was a shielding/invulnerability mechanic with some sacrifice tradeoff. In WoW it could be translated into shielding mechanics, similar to a healer providing Stagger mechanics to a Tank.

"This ritual invokes the recipient with a mystic armor of invulnerability. Weapons will have their effects dissipated when striking the wearer. This armor is constructed from the souls of the damned, and they absorb the pain that any blows would normally inflict upon the wearer."

This is the basis of their Class Fantasy, and from there they can get any number of healing spells to supplement the Shielding style gameplay. Also we have a ton of Covenant abilities in the game right now that are ripe for the picking once Shadowlands is done with, like Unholy Nova, Bonedust Brew and Fleshcraft.

Because the entire basis of Necromancers is summoning undead minions.

It was both summoning and support. Necrolytes had Raise Skeleton and Unholy Armor. Death Knights had Raise Skeleton too, but also Unholy Armor and Haste which were potent support buffs and Death Coil which they could use to heal themselves.

In WoW, that Support Role got merged directly into a Healer role, and that's how a Necromancer would fit as healer.

I disagree, the DK class fills the Necromancer class fantasy quite well. I mean what's missing?

All the spellcasting and support that a Necromancer is known for in the RTS. No one made a Necrolyte so they could stand toe-to-toe against armies of Knights and Footmen. You stood in the back raising skeletons and shielding your Grunts and Ogres, all while cackling like a madman.

NPC abilities pulled from the Tinker in HotS

Except Gazlowe was an Engineer in HotS.

You're a Chromatic dragon that can take on the abilities of any dragon flight. What's complicated about that?

Nothing complicated. No one asked for Chromatics though, that's the problem.

There's nothing complicated about Murlocs being playable, but it's not likely to happen because no one is asking for it.

Just an anecdote, but I've seen zero Chromatic Dragonsworn class concepts to date, and I don't know if it's even something people want to play as.

[TheRevenantHero]

As if Blizzard simply could write more into existence.....

With how the lore is written REGARDING that one chromatic dragon came into being, they'd have to do some really stupid and trashy writing. Chromatus is literally fucking indestructible. Giving players that kind of power is NEVER happening.

[Revamp Man]

Here's the deal; Your concept of Dragons empowering mortals sounds like covenants. So guess what that means; it won't be a class, it'll be an expansion feature. Which is fine, because frankly dragon-style covenants make more sense than a "Dragon Knight" class.

death knights are an expansion feature huh

its literally "i dont like it no matter what you say and no matter how many times you show its possible because i dont want it unless its my concept that makes a class a race"

[TheRevenantHero]

Dark Apotheosis had Sleep, and the Carrion Swarm ability. Warlocks already had infernal. That's the entire Dreadlord ability set minus Vampiric Aura.



On what basis is a Necromancer a healer? Do we have any evidence of Necromancers healing anyone but themselves? FYI, that's what DKs do to help them tank.



Because the entire basis of Necromancers is summoning undead minions. That's the basis of the DK class as well. Both use blood magic, both have connection to frost magic via the Lich, both use unholy/corruptive magics. What would be the difference between DK diseases and a Necromancer's poison ability? Different color damage ticks?



I disagree, the DK class fills the Necromancer class fantasy quite well. I mean what's missing? That you have to fight in melee instead of range? That you're wearing plate instead of cloth?



NPC abilities pulled from the Tinker in HotS, which makes them unlike any other group of engineers in WoW.



You're a Chromatic dragon that can take on the abilities of any dragon flight. What's complicated about that?

Also "mortals getting empowered by dragons" sounds like Covenant 2.0.

lmfao WHAT? Have you never heard of Dragonsworn?

[Revamp Man]

lmfao WHAT? Have you never heard of Dragonsworn?

he has but he really really wants to be able to play an actual dragon

i dont think he understands the whole "you arent really a dragonbecause its a completely different race" and at this point im wondering if he has a fur affinity account

[Teriz]

They were traditionally the Orc counterpart to the Cleric/Priest in the RTS games.

Instead of a traditional heal ability, they had spells like Unholy Armor that prevented damage on a unit. In the RTS it was a shielding/invulnerability mechanic with some sacrifice tradeoff. In WoW it could be translated into shielding mechanics, similar to a healer providing Stagger mechanics to a Tank.

"This ritual invokes the recipient with a mystic armor of invulnerability. Weapons will have their effects dissipated when striking the wearer. This armor is constructed from the souls of the damned, and they absorb the pain that any blows would normally inflict upon the wearer."

This is the basis of their Class Fantasy, and from there they can get any number of healing spells to supplement the Shielding style gameplay. Also we have a ton of Covenant abilities in the game right now that are ripe for the picking once Shadowlands is done with, like Unholy Nova, Bonedust Brew and Fleshcraft.

Yeah, but we haven't seen any Orc Necrolytes in WoW, and its debatable if they even still exist. Further, how would an extinct brand of Orc necromancy spread to other races that already practice scourge and old god based necromancy? Necromancers in WoW tend to come from the Scourge, which is the type of Necromancy that DKs use.

Also your description doesn't mention blood magic at all.

It was both summoning and support. Necrolytes had Raise Skeleton and Unholy Armor. Death Knights had Raise Skeleton too, but also Unholy Armor and Haste which were potent support buffs and Death Coil which they could use to heal themselves.

In WoW, that Support Role got merged directly into a Healer role, and that's how a Necromancer would fit as healer.

All the spellcasting and support that a Necromancer is known for in the RTS. No one made a Necrolyte so they could stand toe-to-toe against armies of Knights and Footmen. You stood in the back raising skeletons and shielding your Grunts and Ogres, all while cackling like a madman.

So we're going to completely abandon Scourge necromancers (because they're wrapped up with DKs) and go with WC2 Necrolytes that still have the same general issue; They're going to have to summon undead minions?

Except Gazlowe was an Engineer in HotS.

So since the game doesn't explicitly call him a Tinker you're going to play ignorant and pretend he isn't one?

Nothing complicated. No one asked for Chromatics though, that's the problem.

No, they asked to play a dragon. Tying it to chromatic drakes is the only way to allow a class to jump between the dragon flights.

If you have a better idea I'd love to hear it.

- - - Updated - - -

With how the lore is written REGARDING that one chromatic dragon came into being, they'd have to do some really stupid and trashy writing. Chromatus is literally fucking indestructible. Giving players that kind of power is NEVER happening.

Then Dragonsworn isn't happening.

Edit: After reading the Dark Factions sourcebook, Dragonsworn sound like a Covenant system, so yeah my suspicion was correct.

[Triceron]

Yeah, but we haven't seen any Orc Necrolytes in WoW, and its debatable if they even still exist. Further, how would an extinct brand of Orc necromancy spread to other races that already practice scourge and old god based necromancy? Necromancers in WoW tend to come from the Scourge, which is the type of Necromancy that DKs use.

I mean, we're literally in the Shadowlands now, and interacting with Maldraxxus, the arguable source of Necromantic powers. Every race is able to use Fleshcraft right now, are we really worried about how races will use Necromancy when right now every race is able to use Necromancy?

Also your description doesn't mention blood magic at all.

Because it doesn't need to. We're shown there are other ways to heal using Necromancy without tapping into Blood magic.

Unholy Nova and Bonedust Brew are examples of this. The spores in Leotheb's fight also heal and are a direct result of Necromancer experiments with alchemy and fungi.

So we're going to completely abandon Scourge necromancers (because they're wrapped up with DKs) and go with WC2 Necrolytes that still have the same general issue; They're going to have to summon undead minions?

Why abandon?

Class Fantasy is not exclusive to factions or racial cultures. Look at Priests. It equally incorporates Sun Worshippers, Holy Light Priests, Combat Medics and Voodoo Practitioners. I don't quite understand what you mean by abandoning. Do you mean it has to be Scourge or Nothing?

I'm talking about Class Fantasy of Necromancers filling a support role. I'm not quite sure how you jumped straight to abandoning the Scourge Necromancers. You realize that the Lich King was Ner'zhul, the most powerful Orc who practiced Necromancy, right?

And I'm not quite sure why you keep thinking using Necromancy and Summoning is an issue at all. Every race right now in direct conflict with the DK using Necromancy, and I haven't seen one word of complaint from you about it. Seems like you've managed to live with the overlap, so I'm sure you will live with this one as well.

Hell, even the Frost Mage/Frost DK argument you used to favour so much is now directly overlapped. "Mages don't use Necromancy" doesn't even matter any more when their Necrolord ability turns them into Skeletal Mages to boost their Frost powers.

So since the game doesn't explicitly call him a Tinker you're going to play ignorant and pretend he isn't one?

How is it pretending or ignorance when there is zero proof of him being a Tinker? If anyone is pretending, it's you.

If Blizzard gives Warlocks Metamorphosis and Glyph of Demon Hunting, then do you consider them to be Demon Hunters? No, they would have to be called Demon Hunters to be Demon Hunters. Otherwise they're still Warlocks.

Gazlowe is literally titled and labeled and Engineer. Even his Island Expiditions crew has multiple roles like Laborer and Engineer, and none of them are specifically Tinkers. Being explicitly named is the difference between a Warlock with Metamorphosis and a Demon Hunter. Being explicitly named is the difference between a dark-skinned Dwarf and a Dark Iron Dwarf.

No, they asked to play a dragon. Tying it to chromatic drakes is the only way to allow a class to jump between the dragon flights.

If you have a better idea I'd love to hear it.

Chromatic would tie it nicely to the game mechanic, but again I don't see anyone jumping for joy when Blizzard brings it to the big stage and announces that you can play a Dragon but not the Dragons you want to play as.

Bait and Switches on player expectation doesn't go over well.

But it seems people are more than happy with Dragonsworn as they exist in the Pen and Paper RPG. Not my personal preference, but I think it works.

[Ielenia]

You're free to believe that it wasn't removed for that reason if you wish.

You have nothing to base your assumption on. Especially considering that change came along years after the death knight class was implemented. And for those years, the two classes shared the same name for one of their abilities, Death Coil, and guess what? The game didn't break. The world didn't end. And also: the DK's Death Coil ability already had a damage component, so you cannot state that Mortal Coil lost its damage component "for the death knight".

I do believe that I said that controlling the undead was a form of necromancy. Hunters control undead beasts through taming them,

And you'd be wrong. "Taming a beast" is not necromancy.

Sure we do.

We don't. That's a fact.

We have Death Knights which possess Necromancer abilities.

And we have paladins who possess priest abilities. Both classes can exist, so whoo-dee-fucking-doo, it doesn't disqualify the necromancer even if you were right in that regard.

Sure they could. However, considering that they have never created a Bard hero or Bard class in any of their media or games since the beginning of Warcraft, I wouldn't count on it ever happening.

They never created a hero for the monk class in any of their canon media or games since the beginning of Warcraft, too. And yet here we are.

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Yeah, but we haven't seen any Orc Necrolytes in WoW, and its debatable if they even still exist.

"We have not seen any X in WoW, therefore it's debatable if they even still exist."

Here is another inconsistency in your arguments, and a quite dishonest one at that, considering we have never seen a claw pack in WoW at all, and yet you insist that it's a fact that it exists.

[Revamp Man]

Yeah, but we haven't seen any Orc Necrolytes in WoW, and its debatable if they even still exist. Further, how would an extinct brand of Orc necromancy spread to other races that already practice scourge and old god based necromancy? Necromancers in WoW tend to come from the Scourge, which is the type of Necromancy that DKs use.

Also your description doesn't mention blood magic at all.



So we're going to completely abandon Scourge necromancers (because they're wrapped up with DKs) and go with WC2 Necrolytes that still have the same general issue; They're going to have to summon undead minions?




So since the game doesn't explicitly call him a Tinker you're going to play ignorant and pretend he isn't one?



No, they asked to play a dragon. Tying it to chromatic drakes is the only way to allow a class to jump between the dragon flights.

If you have a better idea I'd love to hear it.

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Then Dragonsworn isn't happening.

Edit: After reading the Dark Factions sourcebook, Dragonsworn sound like a Covenant system, so yeah my suspicion was correct.

my god your ego man

"if its not like my idea then it wont happen. I was correct"

really???

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I mean, we're literally in the Shadowlands now, and interacting with Maldraxxus, the arguable source of Necromantic powers. Every race is able to use Fleshcraft right now, are we really worried about how races will use Necromancy when right now every race is able to use Necromancy?



Because it doesn't need to. We're shown there are other ways to heal using Necromancy without tapping into Blood magic.

Unholy Nova and Bonedust Brew are examples of this. The spores in Leotheb's fight also heal and are a direct result of Necromancer experiments with alchemy and fungi.



Why abandon?

Class Fantasy is not exclusive to factions or racial cultures. Look at Priests. It equally incorporates Sun Worshippers, Holy Light Priests, Combat Medics and Voodoo Practitioners. I don't quite understand what you mean by abandoning. Do you mean it has to be Scourge or Nothing?

I'm talking about Class Fantasy of Necromancers filling a support role. I'm not quite sure how you jumped straight to abandoning the Scourge Necromancers. You realize that the Lich King was Ner'zhul, the most powerful Orc who practiced Necromancy, right?



How is it pretending or ignorance when there is zero proof of him being a Tinker? If anyone is pretending, it's you.

If Blizzard gives Warlocks Metamorphosis and Glyph of Demon Hunting, then do you consider them to be Demon Hunters? No, they would have to be called Demon Hunters to be Demon Hunters. Otherwise they're still Warlocks.

Gazlowe is literally titled and labeled and Engineer. Even his Island Expiditions crew has multiple roles like Laborer and Engineer, and none of them are specifically Tinkers.



Chromatic would tie it nicely to the game mechanic, but again I don't see anyone jumping for joy when Blizzard brings it to the big stage and announces that you can play a Dragon but not the Dragons you want to play as.

Bait and Switches on player expectation doesn't go over well.

But it seems people are more than happy with Dragonsworn as they exist in the Pen and Paper RPG. Not my personal preference, but I think it works.

currently theres a ton of media where mortals using the power of dragons is a big deal heck there was a big anime where that was the main idea

cant go against teriz though because hes a blizzard dev and tells ion waht to do