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  1. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    artificers are magic based not tech based.
    Depends on how you define using magic, Draenei Artificers use magic crystals to power their technology but they aren't casting spells, no different than Goblins or Gnomes using azerite to power their war machines.

  2. #322
    The Insane General Zanjin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    Depends on how you define using magic, Draenei Artificers use magic crystals to power their technology but they aren't casting spells, no different than Goblins or Gnomes using azerite to power their war machines.
    the tinkers people want are closer to steampunk not crazy alien tech.
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  3. #323
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    So because other races don't call themselves tinkers....that means they're not? That is by far the most asinine logic I have EVER seen you use. I'm borderline impressed. They don't typically call them demon hunters, they call them Illidari. I can't recall a single time someone was called a "hunter" in lore. It's always been ranger to my knowledge. So saying that because no other race can be tinkers because they don't use the title is beyond insane. They don't need to have the title to be the class, dude. Other races can be and ARE tinkers. Just stop.
    Again the logic is simple; Goblins and Gnomes utilize technology to even the odds against more physically powerful races. Which is why Mekkatourqe isn’t running around swinging huge weapons, he’s inside a mech suit.

    Consider that there is no Gnome or Goblin warriors in lore. Pretty much every prominent Goblin and Gnome in WoW is an inventor of some type or someone with an affinity towards technology (with a few minor exceptions). The fact that Tinkers only really exist among Goblins and Gnomes solidifies that fact (and the fact that both Tinker heroes were Goblins).

  4. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    the tinkers people want are closer to steampunk not crazy alien tech.
    A class can have multiple looks, Kul Tiran and Zandalari druids have different aesthetics to their druid forms compared to every other druid.

    A class whose theme would be about technology could incorperate multiple types of technology into it's aesthetic depending on race from steampunk Gnome and Goblin technology, crystal powered Draenei tech, the industrial look of the mag'har.

  5. #325
    The Insane General Zanjin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    A class can have multiple looks, Kul Tiran and Zandalari druids have different aesthetics to their druid forms compared to every other druid.

    A class whose theme would be about technology could incorperate multiple types of technology into it's aesthetic depending on race from steampunk Gnome and Goblin technology, crystal powered Draenei tech, the industrial look of the mag'har.
    so you refuse to understand. understood, this conversation is over.
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  6. #326
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Druids use nature magic, the spell would be nature magic based. It would fit. You're be contrarian for the sake of it.
    I’ve already explained why it doesn’t fit. You’re free to ignore those facts to push your agenda.

    Barrier = health within the mechanics of the game. Give the flower a health bar equal to the the health bar of the building and they're functionally identical in that regard.
    Yeah, under no circumstance is a flower the same as a building. What are we talking about here? Some super massive huge flower? Now we’re getting even more silly.

    The spores floating vs the robots walking is functionally identical. The point is, they would both function as a summoned minion (or whatever you want to call it) with a health bar, spawning smaller homing minions that go after the target and do damage when they catch up.
    A spore that floats towards its target and explodes is also not functionally the same as a robot that attacks its target and explodes. For example, due to it producing robots, they could upgrade to having better weaponry, produce faster, heal allies, produce scrap when they expire, etc.

    Arguing that they're not the same theme mechanically, or from a game play perspective then you're being intellectually dishonest. The only difference between those two abilities is the theme, their game play is identical.
    Uh no, they’re fundamentally different on pretty much every level. Further we should also acknowledge that one ability actually exists in Warcraft and one does not.

    This is absurd.....
    If you say so.

  7. #327
    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    so you refuse to understand. understood, this conversation is over.
    No it's not. He's right so im starting the convo back up... i see how that could work

  8. #328
    The Insane General Zanjin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GEICO gekko IRL View Post
    No it's not. He's right so im starting the convo back up... i see how that could work
    the people that have been wanting tinkers for years want the steampunk style stuff from goblins and Gnomes not the alien crap from Draenei.
    the people who hate gnomes and goblins are the ones trying to push for more races using stuff that makes no sense.
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  9. #329
    Spellbreaker
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  10. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    so you refuse to understand. understood, this conversation is over.
    My point was that a Tinker/Artificer/Engineer/whatever you would call it class doesn't need to exclusively have the look of Gnome/Goblin technology because the warcraft universe has other forms of technology. Druid forms have the same functionality across races but have different looks, the same idea could be applied a Tinker/Artificer/Engineer/whatever class where a Gnome or Goblin would have their for instance Mech have a steampunk look, Draenei would have something akin to a lightforged warframe, Mag'har could have something akin to a miniature Iron Reaver.

    If someone wanted to play Tinker for the streampunk fantasy Gnome Tinker would exist, but if someone wanted a more magitech look Draenei Tinker would exist. Same way if i wanted my Druid to turn into a dinosaur i could play Zandalari but Night Elf Druid still exist for someone who wanted their druid forms to be bears/cats/birds.

  11. #331
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I think we already established that game mechanics are not lore. Also, you're basically saying that Fingers of Frost, Hot Streak, Hungering Void, and many other abilities are "physical spells".
    Considering that all of those are abilities that enhance the caster’s ability to perform a spell and not an example of the spell itself, I’m willing to entertain that notion.


    You're not exactly a reliable barometer for what is stupid or not. And considering all you did to 'counter' my idea was to say "it's stupid", shows you don't have anything to counter it with. "Well, I think it's stupid" is the kind of response that typically comes from small children.
    Well your ability doesn’t exist, doesn’t really fit the spec you’re assigning it to, and it was created by you merely for contrarian purposes, so yes it’s stupid.

    Just because those mechanics don't currently exist in the current class line-up, doesn't mean they can't be added to existing classes in the future. I even gave a perfectly valid example of your "pocket factory" mechanics for the druid class.
    The point is that since those mechanics DONT exist in the class lineup, the class that introduces those mechanics to the game would have UNIQUE mechanics until another class emerges with a similar ability.

    Irrelevant. We already had a mobile, agile class in the game, but that didn't stop the monk class from being added. We already had two mobile, agile classes in the game, one of which could tank, but that didn't stop the demon hunter class from being added. And, I remind you, "necromancer" isn't a mechanic. It's a theme. And themes can be shared. Hell, even mechanics can be shared.
    So you’re comparing the similarity between two agility based classes with two classes that share abilities, themes, origins, and purpose. In fact they’re so similar that the concepts for the Necromancer has the same spec configuration as the existing DK class.

    Amazing.


    And this a complete strawman, since I never said anything about "designing an entire class or spec after Diablo". I simply pointed out mechanics that look to be heavily inspired by the Diablo 2 game.
    Aren’t you advocating for a poison based spec based purely on Diablo 2? Your class write definitely indicates that.


    And in Warcraft 3 mages didn't have fire abilities.Druids could only shapeshift into one kind of animal depending on the group they were part of.
    Death knights didn't have blood or frost abilities. Priests didn't have access to shadow magic. And so on and so forth.[/quote]

    And this is relevant how?



    The time in which Kel'Thuzad was still a human researching necromancy.
    Again, if you have an example of Kelthuzad in game using fire, arcane, and Necromancy, point us to it. Until then, this is just your headcanon.



    Oh, you mean that singular ability they have that deal "plague" damage? There are three things pointing to dishonesty here:
    • First, it's a weapon attack. Not a magic spell. That's like saying priests cannot have holy magic because the paladin has "Hammer of Wrath".
    • Second, like I pointed out, it's one single ability, and yet you use it deny a hypothetical necromancer class a poison spec because of that. But the hunters having a handful of mechanical-based skills somehow doesn't preclude a class from using the mechanical theme.
    • Third, you're implying that "plague" and "poison" are the same thing because both deal nature damage. So, is "plague" the same thing as lightning, because both are "nature" magic? That plague and earth magic are the same thing because both are "nature" magic? You're basically equating that the death knight's magic is in the same ballpark as druid and shaman magic.
    The difference being that we have multiple mechanical abilities for the Tinker class that don’t exist in the Hunter class (in fact none of the Tinker’s abilities exist in the Hunter class). However, DKs have all of the Necromancer’s abilities and there’s no Necromancer that uses poison magic.

    Hopefully you can understand the difference.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    A class can have multiple looks, Kul Tiran and Zandalari druids have different aesthetics to their druid forms compared to every other druid.

    A class whose theme would be about technology could incorperate multiple types of technology into it's aesthetic depending on race from steampunk Gnome and Goblin technology, crystal powered Draenei tech, the industrial look of the mag'har.
    There is pretty much no way you could structure a technology class that encompasses those various types of tech. Further, WoW classes tend to narrow down a class to one major type and ignore variations. For example, the Monk class is based purely on Pandaren martial arts and ignores Human, Blood Elf, and Draenei variations.

    In the case of Tinkers, it’d be hard to imagine an ability where Goblins and Gnomes are using flame throwers and bullets, and Draenei are using holy beams. Further, how would an ability like Pocket Factory work with Naaru crystal magic?
    Last edited by Teriz; 2020-11-22 at 03:05 AM.

  12. #332
    In no rush to get extra classes or specs into the game, we're at a high enough number as it is.

    But that said, the one that immediately pops into my head is a Tinkerer\Alchemist combo.

    Heal (Alchemist) with vials and elixirs and what not. Mixing liquids for different effects (heal, buff, debuff, etc).
    Ranged DPS throwing bombs, using gadgets and devices. Lightning\shock stuff. Maybe use gun\shooter aswell?
    Tank with a mech-suit-thingie, and oil\fire\smoke\steam stuff, with jetpack frontal rush, flamethrower, etc. (kinda like a Powertech Bountyhunter on swtor).

    That said, as long as they don't make another melee class\spec, i'd be happy. Every new class had\was melee (DK, Monk, DH) and even Hunter's Survival revamp turned it into a melee... that's enough of that.

  13. #333
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    But vulpera don't have any tech whatsoever nor have they invented any and what they learn will be what the goblins teach them. But that doesn't disqualify them from being tinkers... why?
    Because they're a brand new race and Blizzard can do pretty much whatever they want them since their lore is wide open.

  14. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by Shedaar View Post
    I'm not here to bait, sorry you feel that way.
    I'm just wondering what people see in necro class, can you elaborate?
    People like the concept of the necromancer, the spellcaster who can manipulate the dead and can sow death and destruction through their spells. Many people also want a new spellcaster class considering all three expansion classes we got here were melee classes.

    I have seen several necromancer topics on this forum and they always revolve around curses (shadow priest/affli warlock?) summoning (demo wrl? unholy dk army of the dead/ghoul?) and nothing really convincing why necromancer should stand out like "Tinker" (which I'm not the biggest fan of) or "Dragonsworn" < at least these 2 have their distinct identities
    The simple fact you're listing two classes for each example completely disproves you, because those two classes have different gameplay, despite being "the same" as you imply, since you're using them together for the same example.

    And I meant "feeble, stupid, mindless ghouls" because I haven't seen any cool undead monster that you could possibly summon that wouldn't be half-rotten, bad looking, pixelated undead zombie.
    I don't imagine necromancer would summon undead dragons, would he?
    The whole point about necromancy is summoning undead. And if you're calling them "feeble" because they're just skeletons, or 'half-rotten', do tell me how you fared going solo against the "feeble" Lord Marrowgar back in 2010. And "stupid" and "mindless"? Are the forsaken mindless? Also, Thassarian has a companion skeleton that is quite intelligent.
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  15. #335
    Brewmaster Whitedragon's Avatar
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    My hope is for a Tinker/Inventor type class.

  16. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    artificers are magic based not tech based.
    It's still technology. It doesn't matter how it's powered. Magitech is a form of tinkering.

  17. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Because they're a brand new race and Blizzard can do pretty much whatever they want them since their lore is wide open.
    No, their lore has already been defined. We've saw their lore for two years as we quested through Vol'dun, and when we went through their allied race recruitment scenario.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
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  18. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again the logic is simple; Goblins and Gnomes utilize technology to even the odds against more physically powerful races. Which is why Mekkatourqe isn’t running around swinging huge weapons, he’s inside a mech suit.

    Consider that there is no Gnome or Goblin warriors in lore. Pretty much every prominent Goblin and Gnome in WoW is an inventor of some type or someone with an affinity towards technology (with a few minor exceptions). The fact that Tinkers only really exist among Goblins and Gnomes solidifies that fact (and the fact that both Tinker heroes were Goblins).
    Once again, hunters don't exist in lore either. Nobody is lore is labeled a "hunter". Furthermore, your reasoning is exceptionally flawed because Vulpera have absolutely no technological leaning and have no lore character that is a tinker. Meanwhile, the draenei have Grand Artificer Romuul. The Nightborne have Oculeth. The sin'dorei fucking created the manaforges as well as the various automatons that patrol sin'dorei territory. But you disregard other races being tinkers by a different name in lore purely because they're not outright called tinkers. Which is probably one of the more asinine pieces of logic you use.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by General Zanjin View Post
    the people that have been wanting tinkers for years want the steampunk style stuff from goblins and Gnomes not the alien crap from Draenei.
    the people who hate gnomes and goblins are the ones trying to push for more races using stuff that makes no sense.
    You really cannot speak for everyone when it comes to tinker. I'd like to see both magitech and steampunk. I also don't want a new class to be restricted to the literally LEAST popular races in game.

  19. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Once again, hunters don't exist in lore either. Nobody is lore is labeled a "hunter".
    Is....this a joke?
    https://www.wowhead.com/search?q=hunter#npcs
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  20. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    There is pretty much no way you could structure a technology class that encompasses those various types of tech. Further, WoW classes tend to narrow down a class to one major type and ignore variations. For example, the Monk class is based purely on Pandaren martial arts and ignores Human, Blood Elf, and Draenei variations.
    Personally i'm an advocate for more variation within classes, i want Night Elf priests to be able to have silver light for their holy spells or night warrior esque shadow spells, along with other race/theme specific spell effects such as sunlight effects for tauren paladins/priests or holy water effects for kul-tiran priests, so i'm biased when my idea for a hypthetical tinker would have such a degree of variation in it's spell effects and visuals, and i understand potential arguments about visual identification/recognizition and the amount of work that would go into giving each class unqiue visuals tied to their race.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    In the case of Tinkers, it’d be hard to imagine an ability where Goblins and Gnomes are using flame throwers and bullets, and Draenei are using holy beams. Further, how would an ability like Pocket Factory work with Naaru crystal magic?
    Missiles swapped for holy bolts, flamthrower is a spray of holy fire, pocket factory deploys a crystal device that creates lightspawns and leaves behind holy energy that can be picked up to replish fuel for your warframe.

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