If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[shoc]

But it's not the territory of the necromancer. The necromancer is not about "ferrying souls to the afterlife" (Bastion), it's not about "cycle of life" (Ardenweald), it's not about "redeeming sous" (venthyr). Even Maldraxxus doesn't fully fit the necromancer concept because, despite being a zone of pure undeath and necromancy, the "life" style of the zone is something more fitting to a warrior: Maldraxxus is supposed to the military section of the Shadowlands to protect the other zones from attackers, and the whole thing in the zone is "survival of the fittest", of glory in combat. Hell, there's a huge arena in the middle of the zone in which members of all houses fight for honor and glory. Remove the "undead" textures and models, and you have a near perfect description of the viking Valhalla, or, more specifically, of Odyn's Halls of Valor.

Not to mention: to boil down the necromancer to "just another magic caster" is downright dishonest, because it ignores what actually makes it different from the other spellcasters.


I have a necromancer fan class concept on my sig.

But, abridged version: poison manipulation, a bone spec, and a healing spec based on blood magic.

I just checked out your Necromancer concept thread and I think it's awesome. Blood/Bone/Poison I totally agree make sense as a Necromancer kit.

But wouldn't you agree that Venthyr = Blood, Maldraxxus = Bone and Ardenweald/Drust = Poison? Your concept is so closely connected to the Shadowlands I'm surprised you're against the idea.

All of the Scourge's power came from these places in the first place, Venthyr is literally the source of all vampiric magic on Azeroth, so is Maldraxxus the source of magic when it comes to abominations, floating necropolises, liches, and plagues. Even Bastion's brand of death magic was exploited by the Jailer/Lich King when they created the Val'kyr to shuttle souls in service to the Scourge. Odyn traded his eye for some of this power too.

[Xeenith]

I just checked out your Necromancer concept thread and I think it's awesome. Blood/Bone/Poison I totally agree make sense as a Necromancer kit.

But wouldn't you agree that Venthyr = Blood, Maldraxxus = Bone and Ardenweald/Drust = Poison? Your concept is so closely connected to the Shadowlands I'm surprised you're against the idea.

All of the Scourge's power came from these places in the first place, Venthyr is literally the source of all vampiric magic on Azeroth, so is Maldraxxus the source of magic when it comes to abominations, floating necropolises, liches, and plagues. Even Bastion's brand of death magic was exploited by the Jailer/Lich King when they created the Val'kyr to shuttle souls in service to the Scourge. Odyn traded his eye for some of this power too.

a necromancer could work as a post SL class, maybe with a "prepatch availability" with preorder like it was for the DH, to get the feel of the class + gear it for the next exp leveling

[jellmoo]

Again: no. It would not. What you're saying is basically like saying BfA would have been "an easy fit" for the tinker because of the technology improvements brought by Azerite, and Mechagon.

The undead of Maldraxxus and the venthyr in Revendreth are just side points to the main story. The main story is afterlife, not undeath. Necromancers are not about the afterlife.

Sure, but the pervailing theme of the expansion isn't just The Afterlife. It's "The Afterlife is borked". The concept of a group of people that routinely interferes with souls entering the afterlife and uses magics to alter the fabrics of death does slide in nicely.

We have the Death Knights acting as a proxy of Bolvar in a role that isn't quite as comfortable for them as it would be for a Necromancer. If a new Necromancer class had made its debut they could have very easily taken that Death Knight role as the initial link between the Shadowlands and Azeroth. Their expertise in all things... you know... Dead... could have easily been played up and used as a narrative device.

[Nightmare Queen]

I think having Necromancers not being Scourge related would help with the whole DK=Necromancer thing that some people think

[Xeenith]

to be fair, a necromancer just reanimate bodies for the most part, empty dead bodies.
only the most powerful/useful undead are rised with their soul back, like the lich & forsakens

[Ielenia]

I just checked out your Necromancer concept thread and I think it's awesome. Blood/Bone/Poison I totally agree make sense as a Necromancer kit.

But wouldn't you agree that Venthyr = Blood, Maldraxxus = Bone and Ardenweald/Drust = Poison? Your concept is so closely connected to the Shadowlands I'm surprised you're against the idea.

All of the Scourge's power came from these places in the first place, Venthyr is literally the source of all vampiric magic on Azeroth, so is Maldraxxus the source of magic when it comes to abominations, floating necropolises, liches, and plagues. Even Bastion's brand of death magic was exploited by the Jailer/Lich King when they created the Val'kyr to shuttle souls in service to the Scourge. Odyn traded his eye for some of this power too.

The thing is that the drust are a really minor thing in Ardenweald as a whole. I don't have a Night Fae covenant character, but from what I heard, their story arc is about dealing with Tyrande and Bwomsandi. The drust are just a side-effect of the anima drought. There isn't even any poison stuff in Ardenweald other than what the big gorm spit at you. Ardenweald is much more "druid" and even "hunter" than anything.

As for Maldraxxus and Revendreth, yes, I agree, but here's the thing: a class has to fit better than "this spec type fits this zone." The class concept itself has to make sense in the expansion's theme as a whole, from what I read, and a necromancer class concept, one that deals with raising the undead (and therefore denying the afterlife to those they raise) doesn't really fit well in an expansion in which we're trying to fix the afterlife, in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong: I obviously would love a necromancer class to be added into the game. But even I agree that Shadowlands is not an expansion fit to usher them in as a playable class.

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Sure, but the pervailing theme of the expansion isn't just The Afterlife. It's "The Afterlife is borked". The concept of a group of people that routinely interferes with souls entering the afterlife and uses magics to alter the fabrics of death does slide in nicely.

You said it yourself: why would a group that routinely interferes by DENYING souls their afterlives (by raising them into undeath) would be a good fit in an expansion in which we are trying to FIX the afterlife?

We have the Death Knights acting as a proxy of Bolvar in a role that isn't quite as comfortable for them as it would be for a Necromancer. If a new Necromancer class had made its debut they could have very easily taken that Death Knight role as the initial link between the Shadowlands and Azeroth. Their expertise in all things... you know... Dead... could have easily been played up and used as a narrative device.

It harkens back to what I previously said: this isn't a case of simply removing the Knights of the Ebon Blade and replacing it with the new necromancer group. This new necromancer group would have to be introduced AND developed through the expansion, and that would require a huge change to how the story is told, considering the KotEB end up confined to Oribos, and Bolvar is reduced to just an exposition dumper.

Not to mention Bolvar is involved because of the Helm of Domination, which is what allowed him to glimpse into the Shadowlands. That is why he has such insights. And a necromancer would not have "expertise in all things 'dead'", at least not insight of the Shadowlands. That's like saying a cook would have "insight on everything 'chemistry'".

[howdy]

Basing a Necromancer class on the Shadowlands covenants does not solve the retreading on overlapping themes and abilities:

Maldraxxus is the birthplace of necromantic magic and home to the forces that were called upon by the LICH KING and the SCOURGE on AZEROTH.

Plague and bones, already, exist within the Death Knight and Warlock classes:
Blood Plague, Frost Fever, Bonestorm, Bone Shield, Ossuary, Marrowrend, Virulent Plague, Festering Wound, Delirium, Infected Claws, Ebon Fever, Bursting Sores, Pestilent Pustules, Pestilence, Festering Strike, Outbreak, Epidemic, Crypt Fever, Rapid Contagion.

Vampiric themes, already, exist within the Death Knight and Priest classes:
Summon Gargoyle, Blooddrinker, Tombstone, Voracious, Consumption, Red Thirst, Relish in Blood, Vampiric Blood, Vampiric Aura, Vampiric Touch, Vampiric Embrace.

The Drust style of druidism, already, exists within the Kul Tiran Druids. Death and Decay are the themes of the (Unholy) Death Knight and Affliction Warlock:
"A master of DEATH AND DECAY, spreading infection and controlling undead minions to do bidding."
This includes: Rapid Decomposition, Decomposing Aura, Rot and Wither, Death and Decay, Defile, Vile Taint, Creeping Death, Deathbolt, Rot and Decay.

Poisons, slimes and bubbly cauldrons would fit the apothecary, which is an alchemist-type, and is currently a profession.

Spiders, Plague of Toads and Acidic clouds are the domain of the Witch Doctor/Shadow Hunter.

Undead minions are, already, the department of the Death Knight class:
Raise Dead, Control Undead, Frostwyrm's Fury, Glyph of the Geist, Glyph of the Skeleton, All Will Serve, Army of the Damned, Raise Abomination, Reanimation, Apocalypse, Dark Transformation, Army of the Dead, Val'kyr.

Lich, Chains, Scythes and magical Skeleton are, already, fulfilled by:
Lichborne, Death Chain - "CHAINS 3 enemies together, Chains of Ice - "SHACKLES the target with frozen CHAINS", Unholy Pact - "Dark Transformation creates an unholy pact between you and your pet, igniting flaming CHAINS", Frostscythe and Army of the Damned - which, summons a Magus of the Dead who hurls Frostbolts and Shadowbolts.

Using life energy as sustainment is, already, part of the Blood spec of the Death Knight class and the affliction Warlock:
"A dark guardian who manipulates and corrupts life energy to SUSTAIN in the face of an enemy onslaught".
Siphon Life, Phantom Singularity, Essence Drain, Drain Life.

Helping teammates using dark magic is, already, fulfilled by the Death Knight:
Mark of Blood, Anti-Magic Zone.

The Death Knight and Warlock, already, fills the niche of a necromancer, insect summoner, Scourge, Necropolis, Shadowlands and spirits:
Will of the Necropolis, Wraith Walk - "Embrace the Power of the SHADOWLANDS", Crimson Scourge, Walking Dead, Unholy Blight - " Surround yourself with a vile swarm of INSECTS for 6 sec, stinging all nearby enemies", Soul Reaper, NECROMANCER'S Bargain, Necrotic Aura, Necrotic Strike, Scourge Strike, Drain Soul, Grip of the Dead.

So, theoretically, there are only the Apothecary, Witch Doctor and Drust that are unaccounted for. The only place they would fit is in a Shadow Hunter class.

[shoc]

Basing a Necromancer class on the Shadowlands covenants does not solve the retreading on overlapping themes and abilities:

Maldraxxus is the birthplace of necromantic magic and home to the forces that were called upon by the LICH KING and the SCOURGE on AZEROTH.

Plague and bones, already, exist within the Death Knight and Warlock classes:
Blood Plague, Frost Fever, Bonestorm, Bone Shield, Ossuary, Marrowrend, Virulent Plague, Festering Wound, Delirium, Infected Claws, Ebon Fever, Bursting Sores, Pestilent Pustules, Pestilence, Festering Strike, Outbreak, Epidemic, Crypt Fever, Rapid Contagion.

Vampiric themes, already, exist within the Death Knight and Priest classes:
Summon Gargoyle, Blooddrinker, Tombstone, Voracious, Consumption, Red Thirst, Relish in Blood, Vampiric Blood, Vampiric Aura, Vampiric Touch, Vampiric Embrace.

The Drust style of druidism, already, exists within the Kul Tiran Druids. Death and Decay are the themes of the (Unholy) Death Knight and Affliction Warlock:
"A master of DEATH AND DECAY, spreading infection and controlling undead minions to do bidding."
This includes: Rapid Decomposition, Decomposing Aura, Rot and Wither, Death and Decay, Defile, Vile Taint, Creeping Death, Deathbolt, Rot and Decay.

Poisons, slimes and bubbly cauldrons would fit the apothecary, which is an alchemist-type, and is currently a profession.

Spiders, Plague of Toads and Acidic clouds are the domain of the Witch Doctor/Shadow Hunter.

Undead minions are, already, the department of the Death Knight class:
Raise Dead, Control Undead, Frostwyrm's Fury, Glyph of the Geist, Glyph of the Skeleton, All Will Serve, Army of the Damned, Raise Abomination, Reanimation, Apocalypse, Dark Transformation, Army of the Dead, Val'kyr.

Lich, Chains, Scythes and magical Skeleton are, already, fulfilled by:
Lichborne, Death Chain - "CHAINS 3 enemies together, Chains of Ice - "SHACKLES the target with frozen CHAINS",Frostscythe and Army of the Damned - which, summons a Magus of the Dead who hurls Frostbolts and Shadowbolts.

Using life energy as sustainment is, already, part of the Blood spec of the Death Knight class and the affliction Warlock:
"A dark guardian who manipulates and corrupts life energy to SUSTAIN in the face of an enemy onslaught".
Siphon Life, Phantom Singularity, Essence Drain, Drain Life.

Helping teammates using dark magic is, already, fulfilled by the Death Knight:
Mark of Blood, Anti-Magic Zone.

The Death Knight and Warlock, already, fills the niche of a necromancer, insect summoner, Scourge, Necropolis, Shadowlands and spirits:
Will of the Necropolis, Wraith Walk - "Embrace the Power of the SHADOWLANDS", Crimson Scourge, Walking Dead, Unholy Blight - " Surround yourself with a vile swarm of INSECTS for 6 sec, stinging all nearby enemies", Soul Reaper, NECROMANCER'S Bargain, Necrotic Aura, Necrotic Strike, Scourge Strike, Drain Soul, Grip of the Dead.

So, theoretically, there are only the Apothecary, Witch Doctor and Drust that are unaccounted for. The only place they would fit is in a Shadow Hunter class.

Specs tread over each other all the time. I would say most of them do, in some way. I personally think it's interesting to see different takes on the same theme, especially if the playstyle and aesthetic is radically different.

Affliction Warlock and Shadow Priest are like 80% similar. Fire Mage and Destruction Warlock are functionally identical. Holy Priest and Holy Paladin are basically the same themes but executed in different directions. I don't think there's anything wrong at all with there being a second spec that deals with the same themes, as long as the gameplay is novel.

Now that we have Shadowlands lore, there's no reason for Necromancers to be tied to the Knights of the Ebon Blade or the Scourge. They can just be skilled in the power from those themes, like any other class. If Holy Paladin and Holy Priest are different enough that it's fine, I don't see why Unholy Death Knight and Unholy Necromancer couldn't be the same.

Unholy Necromancer: Skeletal warriors and death knights, abominations, crypt fiends, Plague of Undeath, and liches. Based on the five houses of Maldraxxus, which is also the five wings of Naxxramas. Shares thematic space with Unholy Death Knights, on purpose, both source their power from the same place so it checks out. It's basically your Diablo 3 necromancer.




Blood Necromancer: Totally inspired by Kael'thas' in Shadowlands, who combines the Warcraft 3 Blood Mage with Venthyr power. He even has Blood Spheres, which would be an awesome addition to the Blood Necromancers. Otherwise it's pretty straight forward right, blood/anima sucking vampire wizards.




Decay Necromancer: Totally untreaded by other specs in the game. Decay is one of the 6 primordial elemental forces alongside Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Spirit, and is only seen so far with Garrosh's Dark Shaman. According to the wiki, Thros is described as a realm of decay, so the application of all the Drust/Wicker themes here would be very appropriate. This is where you can get your scary blair witch themed character too.

[Triceron]

Basing a Necromancer class on the Shadowlands covenants does not solve the retreading on overlapping themes and abilities

Every class treads on overlapping something.

Music themes? Priest have Hymns and Warriors have Drums of War
Tech themes? Hunters employ explosives and traps, the Gnome/Goblins have mechanical pets, Goblin SHamans use Tech-looking totems, and we have Engineering to boot
Dragons themes? Mages have Dragon's Breath and Warriors have Dragon Roar

The argument of overlap can be applied as liberally as anything else. Demon Hunters were absolutely overlapping Rogues and Warlocks and we had a full class out of it nonetheless.

[jellmoo]

You said it yourself: why would a group that routinely interferes by DENYING souls their afterlives (by raising them into undeath) would be a good fit in an expansion in which we are trying to FIX the afterlife?

Because they know the ins and outs of death, undeath, souls and the like. It's like hiring a white hat hacker to help with online security. You bring in an expert to help you find holes in the issue.

It harkens back to what I previously said: this isn't a case of simply removing the Knights of the Ebon Blade and replacing it with the new necromancer group. This new necromancer group would have to be introduced AND developed through the expansion, and that would require a huge change to how the story is told, considering the KotEB end up confined to Oribos, and Bolvar is reduced to just an exposition dumper.

Why? I mean, the amount of effort to do so is pretty minimal. Look at Monks for example. It's not like We had this massive amount of Monk introduction in MoP. They just kind of showed up. Then throughout the expansion, we got bits and pieces about their origin. This could be exactly the same. We don't need some sort of massive shift to anything. Just pop them in and you're pretty much ready to go.

Not to mention Bolvar is involved because of the Helm of Domination, which is what allowed him to glimpse into the Shadowlands. That is why he has such insights. And a necromancer would not have "expertise in all things 'dead'", at least not insight of the Shadowlands. That's like saying a cook would have "insight on everything 'chemistry'".

Sure they can.

Bolvar: "I can use the fragments of the Helm to gaze into the Shadowlands. But I'll need help focusing the energies. The only ones with the expertise for this are disciples of Kel'Thuzad. They are the true experts of the dead and the Shadowlands."

[Katchii]

The standard for WoW classes is Warcraft III heroes, with an official campaign appearance. If the Demon Hunter, Death Knight and Monk classes were added to the game, even with pre-existing abilities in other classes, then so would the other Warcraft III hero-based classes - for the very reason the other ones were added.

I wish Blizzard would elaborate on professions and return them to their glory days of Classic. We went from 156 Engineering items in Classic, to 38 in Shadowlands. We went from 113 Alchemy items in Classic, to 51 in Shadowlands. Moreover, their restricted usage in combat, in contrast to Classic, really butchered their utility. I say we turn it around.
That way, Tinker and Alchemist fans will get what they want and will, finally, be able to live in peace.

Will never happen, because of balance. If any one profession has any kind of combat advantage, it becomes almost a requirement for "serious" raiders to use it, which would tilt the overall distribution of the professions WAY off balance.

Just because they have very little combat utility doesn't mean they don't have utility. And Alchemy has always been one of the professions that provide flasks and potions and stuff that people use, just not nearly as many as in classic, but seriously....fuck [attribute] resist potions.

- - - Updated - - -

Why? I mean, the amount of effort to do so is pretty minimal. Look at Monks for example. It's not like We had this massive amount of Monk introduction in MoP. They just kind of showed up. Then throughout the expansion, we got bits and pieces about their origin. This could be exactly the same. We don't need some sort of massive shift to anything. Just pop them in and you're pretty much ready to go.

You touched on the issue @Ielenia is referring to in your own post. You're underestimating just how much introduction and information were provided for Monks in MoP.

Monks were provided a massive amount of screen time and exposition throughout the MoP expansion. They weren't just dropped in. We found out a lot about them through our journey but the Wandering Isle specifically was created not only as the Pandaren starting area but as a way to introduce Monks to the world, given that the Pandaren emissary to each faction were the ones to spread the teachings of the Monk to the world.

What you're suggesting is that they could drop a new class in without any kind of context.

Granted, some classes would be easier than others, like Necromancers who's presence and schtick are already well know, but there would still need to be SOME context for why a new group joined the factions, who their leaders are, what their goal is, etc...

Just "dropping them in" with no context wouldn't work.

[howdy]

Unholy Death Knight: Raise Dead, Control Undead, Frostwyrm's Fury, Glyph of the Geist, Glyph of the Skeleton, All Will Serve, Army of the Damned, Raise Abomination, Reanimation, Apocalypse, Dark Transformation, Army of the Dead, Val'kyr, Lichborne, Blood Plague, Frost Fever, Virulent Plague, Festering Wound, Delirium, Infected Claws, Ebon Fever, Bursting Sores, Pestilent Pustules, Pestilence, Festering Strike, Outbreak, Epidemic, Crypt Fever.
Diablo III Necromancer: Bone Spikes (Glacial Advance), Grim Scythe (Frost Scythe), Siphon Blood (Blooddrinker), Skeletal Mage (Army of the Damned), Bone Armor (Bone Shield), Blood Rush (Door of Shadows), Simulacrum (Simulacrum), Command Skeletons (Raise dead + All will Serve + Glyph of the Skeleton), Command Golem (Dark Transformation), Army of the Dead (Army of the Dead), Decrepify (Curse of Exhaustion + Curse of Weakness), Leech (Phantom Singularity), Frailty (Doom), Corpse Explosion (Corpse Exploder), Corpse Lance (Sacrificial Pact), Devour (Cannibalize), Revive (Raise Ally).

Blood Death Knight: Summon Gargoyle, Blooddrinker, Tombstone, Voracious, Consumption, Red Thirst, Relish in Blood, Vampiric Blood, Vampiric Aura.
Kael'thas Sunstrider in Shadowlands (Fire Mage): Cloak of Flames, Phoenix Flight, Unleashed Pyroclasm, Vengeful Pyroblast.

The only true viable option
Witchcraft/Superstitious Witch Doctor/Shadow Hunter: Drust/Wicker Witchcraft, seen in Drustvar and employed by Witches.
Voodoo and loa, seen in Troll culture and employed by Witch Doctors and Shadow Hunters.
Alchemy, seen in Forsaken culture and employed by the apothecaries (RPG - An apothecary is a Forsaken witch doctor).

[Katchii]

Bolvar: "I can use the fragments of the Helm to gaze into the Shadowlands. But I'll need help focusing the energies. The only ones with the expertise for this are disciples of Kel'Thuzad. They are the true experts of the dead and the Shadowlands."

That's a pretty big asspull though.

Not saying Blizzard hasn't done so in the past, but just tossing this info out there that's never even been hinted before, that Necromancers and followers of Kel'Thuzad are now somehow well versed in Shadowlands magic and focusing it's power, is out of left field.

We've always known the Helm and Frostmourne were otherworldly, so Arthas and now Bolvar being somehow connected to and aware of the powers that created them isn't really surprising or a crazy idea.

[Triceron]

Will never happen, because of balance. If any one profession has any kind of combat advantage, it becomes almost a requirement for "serious" raiders to use it, which would tilt the overall distribution of the professions WAY off balance.

That's the thing though... it doesn't really need to be a combat advantage.

1: Implement Profession Glyphs system to be able to customize ability graphics. Customize your class spells to be themed on the profession you pick, only works on professions you have active. Scribes cast using scrolls, Enchanters draw runes in the air, Engineers fire rockets instead of spellcasts etc.
2: Balance out usable items across the board. Blacksmiths get Throwing Daggers/Axes, Scribes get Darkmoon Card or Scroll effects, Enchanters get one-use Artifacts, Engineers get Bombs, Alchemists get throwable Cocktails/Potions, Leatherworkers get Drums and Bolas, Tailors get one use Bag of Tricks.

[razorpax]

Just tuning in to see how this dumpsterfire is going and Teriz got fucking BANNED!?

Not the first time this thread and not the last



As dumb as it seems I think 9.2 will be a bit of a hint towards next expansion And this next class

If we don’t get dragon isles then it’s dragonsworn

[jellmoo]

You touched on the issue @Ielenia is referring to in your own post. You're underestimating just how much introduction and information were provided for Monks in MoP.

Monks were provided a massive amount of screen time and exposition throughout the MoP expansion. They weren't just dropped in. We found out a lot about them through our journey but the Wandering Isle specifically was created not only as the Pandaren starting area but as a way to introduce Monks to the world, given that the Pandaren emissary to each faction were the ones to spread the teachings of the Monk to the world.

You're kind of conflating Monks and Pandaria here though. Sure, Monks are a part of the story and we learn why Monks were first made, but it's really only a part of a much larger narrative. Our hands weren't held as we learned everything about Monks all at once. We got bits and pieces about them throughout an expansion. We didn't get a massive lore dump about them before the expansion started. One day we were just able to roll one.

What you're suggesting is that they could drop a new class in without any kind of context.

Which is honestly what they did in MoP. And the difference here is that we already had WotLK. We've already seen the foundation for Necromancers.

Granted, some classes would be easier than others, like Necromancers who's presence and schtick are already well know, but there would still need to be SOME context for why a new group joined the factions, who their leaders are, what their goal is, etc...

Sure. I'm not saying it's a no effort thing. But by the same token, it's not like it's a massive change to what's already here. Shadowlands would have made a ton of sense to do it.

Just "dropping them in" with no context wouldn't work.

With nothing? Sure. But my point is that it wouldn't have been terribly hard. It would have altered the story very little. You could have added a scenario where you and Bolvar go meet with the Necromancers and you're pretty much up to speed. From there, the expansion could have happened largely the same, but with Necromancers in place of Death Knights.

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That's a pretty big asspull though.

Not saying Blizzard hasn't done so in the past, but just tossing this info out there that's never even been hinted before, that Necromancers and followers of Kel'Thuzad are now somehow well versed in Shadowlands magic and focusing it's power, is out of left field.

We've always known the Helm and Frostmourne were otherworldly, so Arthas and now Bolvar being somehow connected to and aware of the powers that created them isn't really surprising or a crazy idea.

Frost spec for Death Knights was an ass pull. Bringing Illidan back was an ass pull. Basing an entire class off of the Brewmaster unit was an ass pull. The Jailer is an pull. The origins of Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination is an ass pull. Blizzard loves their ass pulls. Saying that Necromancers are experts on death and have a knowledge of the Shadowlands isn't exactly a massive one. Saying that people that are masters of robbing life, reanimating the dead and channeling soul magic might have expertise in the realm of the dead isn't exactly a massive stretch.

[Ielenia]

Because they know the ins and outs of death, undeath, souls and the like. It's like hiring a white hat hacker to help with online security. You bring in an expert to help you find holes in the issue.

Actually, the actual comparison would be to hire guy who teaches japanese and translates japanese<->english in your country, to give you a tour through Japan and tell you about the culture and folklore of the place.

Why? I mean, the amount of effort to do so is pretty minimal. Look at Monks for example. It's not like We had this massive amount of Monk introduction in MoP. They just kind of showed up. Then throughout the expansion, we got bits and pieces about their origin. This could be exactly the same. We don't need some sort of massive shift to anything. Just pop them in and you're pretty much ready to go.

@Katchii touched on this already but I'll delve a little deeper. We had a lot of monk stuff in MoP. The Shado-Pan itself is an organization of monks, the military and protectors of Pandaria. Throughout the expansion we're also shown about the pandaren culture, which also is the monk culture because both are so inherently linked. Jade Forest showed us quite a lot about the monks by showing us their culture, along with the temple of the Jade Serpent. Townlong Steppes is another monk-heavy zone. Valley of the Four Winds, too, on its western side as we learn about their unending fight against the Mantid and the reasons for that.

Sure they can.

Bolvar: "I can use the fragments of the Helm to gaze into the Shadowlands. But I'll need help focusing the energies. The only ones with the expertise for this are disciples of Kel'Thuzad. They are the true experts of the dead and the Shadowlands."

And why would someone who never put their hands on the Helm of Domination or even came close to it know about it than the one who wore it for who knows how long and had actual glimpses into the Shadowlands? You're basically attributing to the necromancers something they never have even hinted to have in the past: actual knowledge and expertise about the Shadowlands. That's like saying a US farmer has "expert knowledge" about the nature and their ecosystems and therefore would be good sources of information to help how to deal with forest fires in Australia or how to help clean marine life at the Japanese coast of an oil spill.

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You're kind of conflating Monks and Pandaria here though.

Because Blizzard linked the two to their core. The pandaren are the sole creators of the monk lifestyle, hence why the two are linked.

[Katchii]

That's the thing though... it doesn't really need to be a combat advantage.

1: Implement Profession Glyphs system to be able to customize ability graphics. Customize your class spells to be themed on the profession you pick, only works on professions you have active. Scribes cast using scrolls, Enchanters draw runes in the air, Engineers fire rockets instead of spellcasts etc.

This would be pretty cool. I don't think this would happen due to just how much time it would take to implement all the different visual effects for absolutely zero change in game play. I'd rather they spend the time and resources on something else. With that said, this would totally accomplish the balance piece.

2: Balance out usable items across the board. Blacksmiths get Throwing Daggers/Axes, Scribes get Darkmoon Card or Scroll effects, Enchanters get one-use Artifacts, Engineers get Bombs, Alchemists get throwable Cocktails/Potions, Leatherworkers get Drums and Bolas, Tailors get one use Bag of Tricks.

Neat idea, but again, because of how much time and effort it would take to balance these (depending on how it was implemented, if these were all literally just reskins of the same ability that would make it easy, but also boring AF) I don't think they'd ever go down this road. I'd welcome it if they tried, though.

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You're kind of conflating Monks and Pandaria here though. Sure, Monks are a part of the story and we learn why Monks were first made, but it's really only a part of a much larger narrative. Our hands weren't held as we learned everything about Monks all at once. We got bits and pieces about them throughout an expansion. We didn't get a massive lore dump about them before the expansion started. One day we were just able to roll one.

Fair enough, but we were given context for the Monk class throughout MoP. Maybe not when you're creating your character, but the lore, story and all the other exposition was put into the game at the same time as the class.

Which is honestly what they did in MoP. And the difference here is that we already had WotLK. We've already seen the foundation for Necromancers.

No it's not. When they added Monks, they added a TON of story, lore and exposition as to why we were all of a sudden able to roll Monks.

Sure. I'm not saying it's a no effort thing. But by the same token, it's not like it's a massive change to what's already here. Shadowlands would have made a ton of sense to do it.

I don't necessarily disagree, that Shadowlands would have made some sense. I can't really speak to how "massive" a change it would be, depending on how they felt they should implement them.

With nothing? Sure. But my point is that it wouldn't have been terribly hard. It would have altered the story very little. You could have added a scenario where you and Bolvar go meet with the Necromancers and you're pretty much up to speed. From there, the expansion could have happened largely the same, but with Necromancers in place of Death Knights.

I could get behind this, with the Class starting area being that scenario just like it was with the Demon Hunters. Either adding the Necromancers to the ranks of the Ebon Blade, or as allies to the Ebon Blade and have them accompany the DK's everywhere would have made it relatively seamless.

Frost spec for Death Knights was an ass pull.

Not really. Northrend being what it is, it makes sense that Ice would play a part in the powers of a class essentially based here.

Bringing Illidan back was an ass pull.

While I admit that's a lazy thing to do, it's not without it's precedent in the WoW universe to bring back people that aren't dead. I wouldn't call this an asspull.

Basing an entire class off of the Brewmaster unit was an ass pull.

Drunken Kung Fu masters has been a trope for decades.

The Jailer is an pull.

Sort of. We knew the realms of death existed. Creating a big bad out of one of those realms isn't really an ass pull, IMO. It's expanding on the lore we already know exists. If this this is an "asspull" so is literally every other "new" character ever created.

The origins of Frostmourne and the Helm of Domination is an ass pull.

As I said, we never knew where it came from. Making up a story about where they did come from to expand the lore isn't really an asspull, IMO.

Blizzard loves their ass pulls.

I agree, I just don't think any of these examples qualify.

Saying that Necromancers are experts on death and have a knowledge of the Shadowlands isn't exactly a massive one.

Knowing how to use it's power doesn't necessarily mean they have knowledge of Shadowlands. There's a trope in fantasy where people gain access to and use and abuse a power without actually having any clue where it came from. I'm more referring to the idea that the Necromancers would know about and have some kind of advanced knowledge of the Shadowlands, without us ever hearing about it before now. Them being able to use it's power, I'm 100% on board with.

Saying that people that are masters of robbing life, reanimating the dead and channeling soul magic might have expertise in the realm of the dead isn't exactly a massive stretch.

Agreed. But that doesn't mean they are experts on the Shadowlands, they just have some skill in using magic that taps into it.

[jellmoo]

Actually, the actual comparison would be to hire guy who teaches japanese and translates japanese<->english in your country, to give you a tour through Japan and tell you about the culture and folklore of the place.

This assumes that those that study death, undeath, the soul and everything in between don't actually know anything about the Shadowlands. Oh, I admit it's certainly possible and Blizzard could absolutely spin it that way, but it seems really unlikely to me.

@Katchii touched on this already but I'll delve a little deeper. We had a lot of monk stuff in MoP. The Shado-Pan itself is an organization of monks, the military and protectors of Pandaria. Throughout the expansion we're also shown about the pandaren culture, which also is the monk culture because both are so inherently linked. Jade Forest showed us quite a lot about the monks by showing us their culture, along with the temple of the Jade Serpent. Townlong Steppes is another monk-heavy zone. Valley of the Four Winds, too, on its western side as we learn about their unending fight against the Mantid and the reasons for that.

This rather assumes that everything related to Pandaren and Pandaria is Monk stuff, which I can't agree with. Oh, we absolutely did get some Monk stuff in there, no doubt, and I do agree that the Pandaren are linked to the Monk class, but we can't say that everything is one and the same. Also, this came throughout the length of the expansion. Not all in one dump at the start. It was a slow burn story, not a massive lore dump.

And why would someone who never put their hands on the Helm of Domination or even came close to it know about it than the one who wore it for who knows how long and had actual glimpses into the Shadowlands? You're basically attributing to the necromancers something they never have even hinted to have in the past: actual knowledge and expertise about the Shadowlands. That's like saying a US farmer has "expert knowledge" about the nature and their ecosystems and therefore would be good sources of information to help how to deal with forest fires in Australia or how to help clean marine life at the Japanese coast of an oil spill.

Because they've studied it. Because they are fascinated by the link between undeath and the Shadowlands. Because it's a puzzle and a mystery for them. Sure, Bolvar was wearing it, but he was also doing his damndest to control all the Undead and keep them from going Grr argh over the world. He didn't have the luxury to study the mysteries it held. This group did.

Do you honestly think that this is such a stretch for a Necromancer?

[ArmageddonX]

Necromancer please. We need a true pet class. I'm talking 6+ pets out all the time. We also desperately need ranged classes. Every single "Hero Class" has been melee.