1. #361
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    19,283
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Two player summoned NPC's with a health bar that generates minions who then follow and do damage to the target aren't the same?

    Are you high?
    One is a minature building, the other is a flower. One is producing robotic soldiers while the other one is shooting out pollen. You're saying this is the same?

    Are you high?

    And the plant couldn't generate different kinds of spores that could do more damage, heal allies, leave debris when they expire, etc.?
    So are these spores going to sprout little arms and legs and punch their target in face before they blow up? Maybe the "Flower" can resemble the fire flower from Super Mario Bros, and right before it expires the Druid can pick it up and turn red and start shooting fireballs at their enemies.

    I mean we've already crossed the bridge of nonsense so why stop now?

    Uh, no they're not. The only difference is their theme, their "palette" as you called it one of your earlier posts. You're simply refusing to acknowledge it.

    And what does this have anything to do with this specific discussion? This is entirely around theme =/=mechanics.

    And with that I'm just done. I should have put you on ignore a long time ago.
    Be my guest. You're purposely twisting and turning a non-existent ability for the sole purpose of making a contrarian argument against an existing Warcraft ability because you don't want to admit that the existing WC ability is using unique mechanics. If you can't see how absolutely dumb that is, then perhaps it is best that we end this conversation.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Calfredd View Post
    Why bother? You won't accept any answer but no anyway.
    If you mean I'll only accept the facts, you'd be correct.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2020-11-22 at 06:01 AM.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You clearly haven't been paying attention. Let me give you a run down of possible Tinker abilities;

    Pocket Factory: produce a miniature factory that produce clockwork goblins that attack and then explode.
    Deth Lazor!: Fire a laser that damages targets in a straight line.
    Cluster Rockets: Launch a volley of missiles that damage targets.
    Megafantastic Discombobumorphanator: Turns target into a robotic chicken
    Signal Exploding Sheep – Mekkatorque calls down a herd of Explosive Sheep that detonate after a short delay.

    Do any of those abilities sound like something you'd see a Draenei using while piloting a Lightforged Warframe?
    Ok those are possible tinker abilities that YOU would make so seriously, stop claiming your headcanon is the right answer. Also, everything you listed except pocket factory is basically shit engineers can already do. Which further shows that going down the tinker path that you describe would lead to one of two things. Either engineering will be rendered pretty much obsolete because now players can do everything engineering does without spending gold OR Blizzard will make tinker far more diverse which will easily lead to other races becoming tinkers. The former would be an absolute shitshow and would definitely piss of a lot of people.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    One is a minature building, the other is a flower. One is producing robotic soldiers while the other one is shooting out pollen. You're saying this is the same?

    Are you high?



    So are these spores going to sprout little arms and legs and punch their target in face before they blow up? Maybe the "Flower" can resemble the fire flower from Super Mario Bros, and right before it expires the Druid can pick it up and turn red and start shooting fireballs at their enemies.

    I mean we've already crossed the bridge of nonsense so why stop now?



    Be my guest. You're purposely twisting and turning a non-existent ability for the sole purpose of making a contrarian argument against an existing Warcraft ability because you don't want to admit that the existing WC ability is using unique mechanics. If you can't see how absolutely dumb that is, then perhaps it is best that we end this conversation.

    - - - Updated - - -



    If you mean I'll only accept the facts, you'd be correct.
    If you mean I'll only accept comments that support my headcanons, you'd be correct* fixed that for you. You're welcome.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Ah ok so it's ok to use the excuse of "Blizzard can write lore for the race" when it comes to Vulpera but not any other race? Are you seriously incapable of seeing how much of an egregious double standard that is?
    Just stop trying to discuss with him. Teriz is the most intellectually dishonest poster I've ever encountered in the 10 years I've been a member, with double standards being only part of the problem. The sheer amount of mental gymnastics he does to dodge questions, move the goalposts, play word games and twist the discussion to fit his narrative is disgusting. Just look at what the thread has devolved into since he showed up. A nonstop argument about why his ideas are the only good ones and nobody else knows what they're talking about.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Katchii View Post
    Just stop trying to discuss with him. Teriz is the most intellectually dishonest poster I've ever encountered in the 10 years I've been a member, with double standards being only part of the problem. The sheer amount of mental gymnastics he does to dodge questions, move the goalposts, play word games and twist the discussion to fit his narrative is disgusting. Just look at what the thread has devolved into since he showed up. A nonstop argument about why his ideas are the only good ones and nobody else knows what they're talking about.
    Oh, trust me. I know. I mostly respond so he can intellectually hang himself in front of everyone. I know how to talk to people like him that gets them to spew nothing but dishonesty and double standards. I know everything he says is utterly incorrect but I respond anyway so everyone can watch the living embodiment of hypocrisy.

  5. #365
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    19,283
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Ok those are possible tinker abilities that YOU would make so seriously, stop claiming your headcanon is the right answer. Also, everything you listed except pocket factory is basically shit engineers can already do. Which further shows that going down the tinker path that you describe would lead to one of two things. Either engineering will be rendered pretty much obsolete because now players can do everything engineering does without spending gold OR Blizzard will make tinker far more diverse which will easily lead to other races becoming tinkers. The former would be an absolute shitshow and would definitely piss of a lot of people.
    Well actually no. Pocket Factory and Deth Lazor are actual Tinker abilities.

    The rest come from prominent NPCs who could be considered Tinkers in lore, and are possible sources for Tinker abilities.

    Also a class wouldn't make a profession obsolete. Classes can't sell their abilities to other players. Like I can't produce bombs as a Tinker and sell them at the auction house. Also just because a Tinker can pilot a mech doesn't mean that a warrior or Druid wouldn't purchase a sky golem from an Engineer.

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If you mean I'll only accept the facts, you'd be correct.
    You're like the dribbles (brexit thread) of tinkers; only your opinions count as facts and everything else is fake.

  7. #367
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    19,283
    Quote Originally Posted by Calfredd View Post
    You're like the dribbles (brexit thread) of tinkers; only your opinions count as facts and everything else is fake.
    What "opinions" would those be? Are you talking about the notion that Goblin and Gnome tech (whacky steampunk) doesn't really mesh well with Draenei and Nightborne tech (Magi-tech), thus making it unlikely that Blizzard would create a class with both those types of tech?

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Well actually no. Pocket Factory and Deth Lazor are actual Tinker abilities.

    The rest come from prominent NPCs who could be considered Tinkers in lore, and are possible sources for Tinker abilities.

    Also a class wouldn't make a profession obsolete. Classes can't sell their abilities to other players. Like I can't produce bombs as a Tinker and sell them at the auction house. Also just because a Tinker can pilot a mech doesn't mean that a warrior or Druid wouldn't purchase a sky golem from an Engineer.
    If you don't see how your version of tinker would render engineering utterly obsolete then there really is absolutely no hope in trying to debate this with you. What do you not understand about "If players can just level a class to accomplish everything an engineer does without spending gold" do you NOT understand? Or are you being purposely obtuse?

    Oh, and also, you have successfully created a double standard by yourself. You have just admitted that from a lore standpoint, there is NO reason other races can't just pilot and use a mech, thereby qualifying them for tinker.

  9. #369
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    19,283
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    If you don't see how your version of tinker would render engineering utterly obsolete then there really is absolutely no hope in trying to debate this with you. What do you not understand about "If players can just level a class to accomplish everything an engineer does without spending gold" do you NOT understand? Or are you being purposely obtuse?
    An engineer builds items to sell to people, not to make themselves into a functional class. What a bizarre and silly argument to make.

    I mean, how and why would the Tinker class prevent a Hunter from purchasing a pair of crafted engineering goggles, a gun, or a Sky Golem?

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    An engineer builds items to sell to people, not to make themselves into a functional class. What a bizarre and silly argument to make.

    I mean, how and why would the Tinker class prevent a Hunter from purchasing a pair of crafted engineering goggles, a gun, or a Sky Golem?
    There is no way you are not being purposely obtuse. Why would I spend gold on a gun or goggles or a sky golem when Tinker can provide all those things FOR FREE and all I have to do is level one? Tinker is just engineer with gold and material costs removed.

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    There is no way you are not being purposely obtuse. Why would I spend gold on a gun or goggles or a sky golem when Tinker can provide all those things FOR FREE and all I have to do is level one? Tinker is just engineer with gold and material costs removed.
    Why bother playing a mage or a shaman when you can bang on some drums for the buff? Why would you use engineering when you could just go Demon Hunter for that added mobility but for free? I'm not saying you don't have a point but this comparison is stupid - things can coexist together and not make it obsolete.

    Engineering is a profession people can learn even if they have these things on their class. If Tinker (or any new class) had similarities with a profession and what they offered... Who cares?

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    An engineer builds items to sell to people, not to make themselves into a functional class. What a bizarre and silly argument to make.

    I mean, how and why would the Tinker class prevent a Hunter from purchasing a pair of crafted engineering goggles, a gun, or a Sky Golem?
    Ok...

    I have read your bunch, am i correct to assume that what you proposing is literally cranking engineering items numbers to the point its a viable combat class and not a profession?

    Can you seriously not see why it wont happen?

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinChan View Post
    Why bother playing a mage or a shaman when you can bang on some drums for the buff? Why would you use engineering when you could just go Demon Hunter for that added mobility but for free? I'm not saying you don't have a point but this comparison is stupid - things can coexist together and not make it obsolete.

    Engineering is a profession people can learn even if they have these things on their class. If Tinker (or any new class) had similarities with a profession and what they offered... Who cares?
    That's nowhere near comparable because drums only gives 15% buff. Engineers can't double jump like demon hunter.

    What I'm saying is that Teriz's idea for tinkering is literally just engineer without the gold and materials cost. I'm not saying that's what tinker will be. I'm saying that Teriz's version is definitely just engineer in class form.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    That's nowhere near comparable because drums only gives 15% buff. Engineers can't double jump like demon hunter.

    What I'm saying is that Teriz's idea for tinkering is literally just engineer without the gold and materials cost. I'm not saying that's what tinker will be. I'm saying that Teriz's version is definitely just engineer in class form.
    Personally I wouldn't see an issue to give a class something unique like that - engineering built in and just what they have. An extra profession essentially - but maybe that's not what Teriz is saying or you are. But I still don't see an issue of having superior abilities in a class when compared to direct counterparts in the utility driven profession.

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by PenguinChan View Post
    Personally I wouldn't see an issue to give a class something unique like that - engineering built in and just what they have. An extra profession essentially - but maybe that's not what Teriz is saying or you are. But I still don't see an issue of having superior abilities in a class when compared to direct counterparts in the utility driven profession.
    Once again, I'm not opposed either but the class would have to be far more different from the engineering profession in that case. But Teriz's description of his version of tinker is literally just engineer that you don't have to pay for with in game currency.

  16. #376
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Once again, I'm not opposed either but the class would have to be far more different from the engineering profession in that case. But Teriz's description of his version of tinker is literally just engineer that you don't have to pay for with in game currency.
    Still makes no sense imo cause said tinker will deploy bots, shoot lasers and do as such (tho different to actual engineering profession somehow)

  17. #377
    Tinker is the only class that would really excite me.

    Plus I would love another class that uses firearms.

  18. #378
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Undermine
    Posts
    19,283
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    There is no way you are not being purposely obtuse. Why would I spend gold on a gun or goggles or a sky golem when Tinker can provide all those things FOR FREE and all I have to do is level one? Tinker is just engineer with gold and material costs removed.
    Uh, a Tinker wouldn’t provide engineering goggles or crafted guns or a Sky Golem because those are items, not abilities.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Vremennoe reshenie View Post
    Ok...

    I have read your bunch, am i correct to assume that what you proposing is literally cranking engineering items numbers to the point its a viable combat class and not a profession?

    Can you seriously not see why it wont happen?
    No, I’m proposing a class that uses the abilities of the Tinker hero from WC3 and HotS, and the ability of Tinkers shown in WoW. None of the WC3, HotS, or WoW Tinker’s abilities exist in the engineering profession.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Once again, I'm not opposed either but the class would have to be far more different from the engineering profession in that case. But Teriz's description of his version of tinker is literally just engineer that you don't have to pay for with in game currency.
    Completely false. Again, none of the Tinker’s abilities exist within the engineering profession. In fact, I would argue that engineering would get a boost from a Tinker class inclusion.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2020-11-22 at 01:01 PM.

  19. #379
    Warchief Hansworst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Schiedam, the Netherlands
    Posts
    2,075
    Can we all make a deal not to mention Tinker or Tinkerer in topics like this? Because Teriz and his adversaries will find the thread and make it unreadable with their senseless back-and-forth without anybody giving each other an inch.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Take that haters.
    IF IM STUPID, so is Donald Trump.

  20. #380
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Brazil
    Posts
    16,710
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    One is a minature building, the other is a flower. One is producing robotic soldiers while the other one is shooting out pollen. You're saying this is the same?

    Are you high?
    Mechanically, they're the exact same. Which is the whole point.

    So are these spores going to sprout little arms and legs and punch their target in face before they blow up?
    Spores have a lot of spikes on them they can attack with:


    If you mean I'll only accept the facts, you'd be correct.
    Then how come you haven't accepted any facts, so far?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Your argument is that a mechanic isn't unique because it can be replicated by an ability that doesn't exist.
    No, that is not my argument. My argument, which you'd know if you actually bothered to read what I wrote, countless times, is that themes do not offer exclusive gameplay.

    Again, this is a silly contrarian argument that isn't based on facts.
    You ignoring the facts does not make my argument "silly" or even "not based on facts".

    The fact of the matter is that there are no existing class abilities with those mechanics, thus a Tinker class with those abilities would have unique mechanics.
    The actual "fact of the matter" is that none of that proves that "themes provide unique gameplay". The second fact you ignore is that those mechanics can go to existing classes instead, as proven by existing classes gaining new mechanics as time went on, like shadow priests getting the insanity mechanic, and balance druids getting the sun/moon mechanic.

    Is it themed based? I would say that a miniature factory producing robots is very heavily tied to a technology theme. Wouldn't you?
    And that is nothing but a coat of paint. Because those exact same mechanics could be given a different "coat of paint" and given to a different class.

    Well here's a very popular one;

    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...r-Concept-2017

    Dread is Unholy, Faithless is Blood, and Undeath is a combination of Frost and Unholy.

    Pretty much every Necromancer concept is a variation of that.
    I don't see how "undeath" is the DK's frost spec, or even a combination of it. Is it because of the "high lich" transformation? It's just a couple of abilities. That's like saying the elemental shaman spec is the mage's fire spec because they have a couple of fire spells, while ignoring all the rest. "Dread" is also not unholy because we don't have the necromancer creating "death and decays" or summoning undead minions. It's him creating oozes and plagues and poison. It's heavily inspired on Professor Putricide.

    You have to really stretching the definition of "blood, frost and unholy" to serve your narrative. In short, you are doing what you're accusing me of: grasping at straws.

    You took the concept of Golems from the D2 Necromancer.

    I'm sure if I cared enough, I could find quite a few spells you pilfered from D2.
    Golems and their concept do not exist in Warcraft? Really? I could swear I saw golems in Warcraft since WoW day 1...

    And even if the Diablo 2 necromancer inspired me to create the golem mechanic for my necromancer concept... what does that prove? I already admitted I took a little bit of inspiration from it, but that in no way proves I based my poison concept "purely on the D2 necromancer", like you claimed:
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Aren’t you advocating for a poison based spec based purely on Diablo 2? Your class write definitely indicates that.
    Especially since the "poison spec" of the D2 necromancer doesn't have a golem.

    I know what I said. I'm wondering why its relevant.
    Because you were the one to bring Warcraft 3 into the argument to say "look at this character not using X spells". I simply used Warcraft 3 to show that certain characters did not have the abilities they have today.

    Again, there's no Necromancer in Warcraft casting fire or arcane spells.
    Show me death knights casting blood and frost magic in Warcraft before the Wrath of the Lich King expansion. Show me monks using "mist magic" before Mists of Pandaria. If you cannot do both of those things, then your argument gets invalidated because it would have been shown that we don't have to see those characters actually doing those things to give said abilities to a new playable class.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2020-11-22 at 02:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Varodoc View Post
    Torturing someone is not an evil thing to do if it is done for good reasons and as a last, drastic measure.
    Oof...

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •