If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[Teriz]

Paladins worship the light. And "worship the void" is rather a meaningless descriptor considering we already have a caster that has a DoT spec that uses shadow magic, and can fear others and manipulate their minds.

Not on the level of Spriests. Their entire spell kit is full of mental based abilities.

Venthyr covenant.

Expansion ability. Won’t be around after this expansion.

And death knights can't use poison magic.

Neither can Necromancers.

"Tenets of necromancy" is nothing but headcanon.


And we can do the same for paladins and priest. We can find numerous similarities between the priest and the paladin:

• "The priest is the master of healing and preservation, restoring his wounded allies" - Paladins.
• "shielding them in battle" - Paladins
• "even resurrecting his fallen comrades from death." - Paladins.
• "the priest can also wreak terrible vengeance on his enemies, using the grand powers of the Holy Light to smite and purge them" - Paladins
• "The priest is a diverse and powerful class, highly desirable in any group and capable of fulfilling multiple roles" - Paladins
• "Discipline and Holy priests are powerful and versatile healers with a range of tools for supporting their allies" - Paladins

Did you purposely skip this part;

or the devastating powers of the Void to decimate their minds.

Paladins can’t do that.

[Traveler Voltin]

priests channel light and/or void/shadow.

Paladins are holy warriors infused with light.

why are people still comparing them?

[LemonDemonGirl]

A Necromancer would literally be a death magic user who's still alive (unless you want to RP that they're not), and isn't associated with the Scrouge. So, a Priest to a Paladin lol

[Ielenia]

Not on the level of Spriests. Their entire spell kit is full of mental based abilities.

Doesn't matter how many X abilities one class has vs how many X abilities the other class has. The point is that the warlock does have the mental theme: fear, curse of tongues and mortal coil show how the warlock can inflict maladies to one's minds.

It's your exact argument against the bard class: we don't need a class that does something another class already does, only better. The priest already has hymns, therefore we don't need a class that also has hymns. Just give them to the class that already has it.

Expansion ability. Won’t be around after this expansion.

And yet you didn't even think twice about using covenant abilities for your argument that the hunter class uses necromancy. Once again: dishonest double-standards. Either expansion abilities count, or they don't, Teriz. You can't pick-and-choose when they apply and when they don't.

Neither can Necromancers.

Demonstrably false. Grand Widow Faerlina uses poison. We also have necromancer acolytes being taught alchemy from a guy who favors poison in Scholomance, which just so happen to be a necromancer school.

Did you purposely skip this part;

Paladins can’t do that.

But warlocks can already "decimate the minds" of their opponents, and "using the void" is irrelevant since it doesn't make a character different. Inflicting fear in someone's mind has no difference regardless if it's fel or void in origin.

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priests channel light and/or void/shadow.

Paladins are holy warriors infused with light.

why are people still comparing them?

Because he's saying "here's a class that already does a lot of what your fan class concept can do, therefore we don't need yours". I'm simply showing how Teriz' arguments are dishonest since they would also eliminate present classes when applied to them. In this case, we have the paladins and warlocks who can already do everything the priest class can do.

[Teriz]

Doesn't matter how many X abilities one class has vs how many X abilities the other class has. The point is that the warlock does have the mental theme: fear, curse of tongues and mortal coil show how the warlock can inflict maladies to one's minds.

No, it just has Fear and Mortal Coil. Curse of tongues is a curse.

Priests have Mind Blast, Mind Sear, Mind Flay, Searing Nightmare, Mind Control, Mind Bender, Mind Bomb, Psychic Scream, Insanity, etc. And that's the theme of their spec, because like the Old Gods they attack the mind. It's a completely different school than the Demon-based school of shadow magic that Warlocks use.

It's your exact argument against the bard class: we don't need a class that does something another class already does, only better. The priest already has hymns, therefore we don't need a class that also has hymns. Just give them to the class that already has it.

You misunderstand. I said that you could alter the entire Priest holy spec to revolve around hymns, chants, prayers, and even songs and it won't alter the spec. You dump a ton of Old God-themed stuff in the Warlock class and you'd alter it significantly.

And yet you didn't even think twice about using covenant abilities for your argument that the hunter class uses necromancy. Once again: dishonest double-standards. Either expansion abilities count, or they don't, Teriz. You can't pick-and-choose when they apply and when they don't.

Again, the Hunter class has had Shadow abilities in their class for years, the Paladin class does not, and Shadow abilities completely go against the theme of their class. Hunters might keep Flayed Shot or Death Chakram. There's zero chance that Paladins will keep their shadowland-based shadow abilities.

Demonstrably false. Grand Widow Faerlina uses poison. We also have necromancer acolytes being taught alchemy from a guy who favors poison in Scholomance, which just so happen to be a necromancer school.

Grand Widow isn't a Necromancer, she breeds spiders to extract their venom for experiments.

Alchemy isn't magic.

But warlocks can already "decimate the minds" of their opponents, and "using the void" is irrelevant since it doesn't make a character different. Inflicting fear in someone's mind has no difference regardless if it's fel or void in origin.

There's a difference between having the ability to scare someone away, and having an entire host of abilities (specialization) solely dedicated towards the destruction of someone's mind. Also there's a world of difference between the Shadow magic employed by demons, and the shadow magic employed by the Old Gods. Hell, the combination of Holy and Shadow magic is called Twilight, and its a concept that Warlocks don't even touch, just like Priests don't mess with Shadowflame, Chaos, and Fel.

[Traveler Voltin]

Because he's saying "here's a class that already does a lot of what your fan class concept can do, therefore we don't need yours". I'm simply showing how Teriz' arguments are dishonest since they would also eliminate present classes when applied to them. In this case, we have the paladins and warlocks who can already do everything the priest class can do.

no offense but it sounds like you dont want to listen and only want to argue just to argue.

Right now Necromancers share too much overlap with Death Knights and Warlocks, the wise and gameplay.

what people refuse to understand/answer. How do you keep the spirit of a Necromancer without having so much overlap? how do keep the theme and gameplay without overlapping with other classes?

[Ielenia]

No, it just has Fear and Mortal Coil. Curse of tongues is a curse.

It's still a mental affliction, because it forces one's mind to speak in a different tongue.

Priests have Mind Blast, Mind Sear, Mind Flay, Searing Nightmare, Mind Control, Mind Bender, Mind Bomb, Psychic Scream, Insanity, etc. And that's the theme of their spec, because like the Old Gods they attack the mind. It's a completely different school than the Demon-based school of shadow magic that Warlocks use.

And none of those abilities would look out of place in the warlock toolkit.

You misunderstand. I said that you could alter the entire Priest holy spec to revolve around hymns, chants, prayers, and even songs and it won't alter the spec. You dump a ton of Old God-themed stuff in the Warlock class and you'd alter it significantly.

And you don't even need to change ONE BIT of the warlock's specs to dump in all the mind-themed abilities the shadow priest have. The 'old god' theme can be discarded since it's just a 'coat of paint' that wouldn't be doing anything differently than what the warlock class would do.

Again, the Hunter class has had Shadow abilities in their class for years, the Paladin class does not, and Shadow abilities completely go against the theme of their class. Hunters might keep Flayed Shot or Death Chakram. There's zero chance that Paladins will keep their shadowland-based shadow abilities.

It's still double-standards to use covenant abilities for your arguments for one class, and then deny the covenant abilities for another class, regardless of the reasons. That's a fact.

Grand Widow isn't a Necromancer, she breeds spiders to extract their venom for experiments.

Why do you say she is not a necromancer? Because it's not expressly stated she is one? Well, we don't have anything that expressly states that Gazlowe or Blackfuse are tinkers, either. But Faerlina is a member of the Cult of the Damned.

Alchemy isn't magic.

So if necromancers had an alchemy-based spec, it would be different from the death knight?

There's a difference between having the ability to scare someone away, and having an entire host of abilities (specialization) solely dedicated towards the destruction of someone's mind.

Read above: none of the mind-based abilities of the shadow priest would look out of place in the warlock class. And 'void vs demon' is just a coat of paint, since functionality they are the very same.

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no offense but it sounds like you dont want to listen and only want to argue just to argue.

Right now Necromancers share too much overlap with Death Knights and Warlocks, the wise and gameplay.

And priests and paladins ALSO share just as much overlap. The shadow priest's gameplay meshes too much with warlock and paladin.

what people refuse to understand/answer. How do you keep the spirit of a Necromancer without having so much overlap? how do keep the theme and gameplay without overlapping with other classes?

People giving answers you refuse to accept is not them "refusing to answer" the question. We already have paladins and priests sharing a lot of themes with heavy overlaps. A necromancer and death knight would share just as much overlap, especially if you give the necromancer class a healing spec.

[Traveler Voltin]

And priests and paladins ALSO share just as much overlap. The shadow priest's gameplay meshes too much with warlock and paladin.


People giving answers you refuse to accept is not them "refusing to answer" the question. We already have paladins and priests sharing a lot of themes with heavy overlaps. A necromancer and death knight would share just as much overlap, especially if you give the necromancer class a healing spec.

yep. you just want to argue to argue.

there is only 2 ways priests and paladins overlap. Healing with light and a theme. priests over lap with warlocks is dots and use of shadow magic. the gameplay is vastly different.

there is no heavy overlap with paladins and priests. you are also refusing to answer the question.
Necromancers and death knights have way more over lap than paladins and priests.
a necromancer could have a healing spec but if the other 2 specs gameplay overlaps too much with Death knights and warlocks then its a waste of time.

[shoc]

Dragons are a fucking race. As I said more than once, making them a class is as stupid as making murlocs into a class. If Blizzard ever made dragons a playable race it would kill the game. Furthermore, dragonsworn are specifically NOT dragons. They are mortals imbued with a piece of a dragon's power in order to be their emissary and protector.

Sure, I guess that's true if you have zero imagination whatsoever.

[Trazzle]

It's gotta be Tinker.

[jellmoo]

yep. you just want to argue to argue.

there is only 2 ways priests and paladins overlap. Healing with light and a theme. priests over lap with warlocks is dots and use of shadow magic. the gameplay is vastly different.

there is no heavy overlap with paladins and priests. you are also refusing to answer the question.
Necromancers and death knights have way more over lap than paladins and priests.
a necromancer could have a healing spec but if the other 2 specs gameplay overlaps too much with Death knights and warlocks then its a waste of time.

I don't particularly care about the Death Knight vs Necromancer argument.

That being said, Paladins literally were Priests. The Order of the Silver Hand was made up of Priests that put on armor and started carrying swords and warriors who started to study with Priests.

It's hard not to compare the two when one group was literally comprised of the other.

[Traveler Voltin]

I don't particularly care about the Death Knight vs Necromancer argument.

That being said, Paladins literally were Priests. The Order of the Silver Hand was made up of Priests that put on armor and started carrying swords and warriors who started to study with Priests.

It's hard not to compare the two when one group was literally comprised of the other.

paladins like death knights have changed.
it doesnt matter what they were before. Paladins are Holy warriors infused with light. the only things in common priests light and healing with light.

[Dagul]

Yo every one ! I personally don't see necromancer as a new class, I think it's more I really want tinker to come before haha, but for the mental exercices, I would like to propose my view on how necromancer can be a good idea, even if I personally really don't want it

So I hope pro necromancer found my view cool, neutral people have things to read, and anti necromancer to see if that vision can work

I stated earlier I wanted a light hearted class, we have plenty of dark and edgy class and warcraft, and I think I understand why so many people love those dark theme, we play in a fantasy world, we can be the baddass and bad guy, even if we work for good, warlock siphon your soul, death knight blight your mortal body, shadow user melt your spirit, so yeah we have many dark classes, one more can be super good idea, as it give more nuance to a theme people like, again, it's a fantasy game, if people want to burn the world with dark energy,that's the right game to play !

It's true necromancer can overlap on warlock and death knight, but we can look more in detail to see, what's the difference, and not what is in common

Let's start with the warlock, to my eyes, warlock are using other living creature, the demon, depends on how you see your warlock, you can imagine him making a pact with demon to enter his service, and the demon is happy to be summoned and to eat those delicious life and soul essence, we can imagine the warlock control the fel inside demon and use it as puppet

Warlock USE other living being to do his will

Necromancer has a different relation to his construction, let's take the mage that studied necromancy, we can imagine, he just animate decaying body and bones to give them their former shape and use it, so the necromancer minion are not living or undead creature, they are the prolongation of his power, like a mage animate a broom, necromancer know how to reshapebody and giving them back their purpose

Necromancer use his magic to animate things, objects

Now a tricky one, let's see about death knight

Death knight are in the mortal world, they use power of death in the living world, someone dead dont generate heat(frost), a dead body is decaying and mean life abandon the body(unholy), blood is the liquid of life, taking away blood of someone, and he die

Here we can have 2 view on necromancer, does he use the death as how it work in mortal world, or does he use the death of the death realm

So are necromancer follower of Kel Thuzad work, or do we see it as Maxxrasus mage ?

If it's about mage necromancer ala Kel Thuzad, yeah it seem it could overlap on death knight, but is it a bad thing ? Death knight was created in response to the paladin, elite troop that gather the forces of killing you ! Blight you, freeze you to death then sucking your life to prolonge their undead body

Necromancer could fit the priest of the undead, they study these unholy ritual, experiment about undead and how to shape flesh, death knight are made with that power, they don't expand their knowledge, they just use it, as it's their purpose

Necromancer with mortal death in mind, are scientist and mage that expand their knowledge

I didn't play yet shadowland so I will not expand too much about necromancer in the actual afterlife, but I know there is enough things to make them truly death mage (anima using, pure death bolt as Sylvania used against Saurfang, infinite flesh shaping)

Unholy animate body ? Necromancer push the art to next level, even animate their own body(see lich)

Unholy blight body ? Necromancer take directly the life of the person and not decaying it

Death knight work to remove what make living people alive, necromancer use the power of death itself and study it as art

I hope it's still comprehensive, it's hard to defend something you against but I hope it can help the debate

[jellmoo]

paladins like death knights have changed.
it doesnt matter what they were before. Paladins are Holy warriors infused with light. the only things in common priests light and healing with light.

What are you basing that distinction on?

[Traveler Voltin]

What are you basing that distinction on?

what do you mean?

[jellmoo]

what do you mean?

Well, you're indicating that the Paladin class has changed to be different from it's origin as a Priest learning martial combat. What exactly are you basing that on? How are they different from Priests now in ways that didn't exist before, and where did you get the information to reach that conclusion?

[Traveler Voltin]

Well, you're indicating that the Paladin class has changed to be different from it's origin as a Priest learning martial combat. What exactly are you basing that on? How are they different from Priests now in ways that didn't exist before, and where did you get the information to reach that conclusion?

Arthas seems to have been the start of a new generation. he wasnt a priest. he was trained more like a warrior before getting infused with Light magic that made him a paladin.

[Ielenia]

yep. you just want to argue to argue.

there is only 2 ways priests and paladins overlap. Healing with light and a theme. priests over lap with warlocks is dots and use of shadow magic. the gameplay is vastly different.

And the gameplay between a ranged light-armored character is inherently different than the gameplay of a heavy-armored melee character, but that doesn't stop people from saying a necromancer's gameplay would be basically the same as a death knight's. Now how is wanting to "argue just to argue" again?

there is no heavy overlap with paladins and priests. you are also refusing to answer the question.

I'll repeat: people giving answers you refuse to accept is not them "refusing to answer" the question.

Necromancers and death knights have way more over lap than paladins and priests.

No, they don't. And don't have to.

a necromancer could have a healing spec but if the other 2 specs gameplay overlaps too much with Death knights and warlocks then its a waste of time.

And who said that the other two specs' gameplay would overlap too much with death knights and warlocks? For one, a necromancer is a ranged clothie. That alone completely negates any claim that a necromancer's gameplay would have "heavy overlap" with death knights. The only real overlap that necromancers and death knights have is a thematic one, and that is okay to be shared, as present classes have demonstrated.

[Stardrift]

While I agree that we need a new ranged damage dealer, I disagree that we need it to be a Necromancer. We already have a necromancer class in every respect. You can't really justify creating a new class because of a range and armor difference. The new class really needs to bring something new to the table.



Death Knights already have those abilities though.



There's no reason to go against Tinkers. Unfortunately there are plenty of reasons to go against a Necromancer. Namely the fact that a Necromancer would encroach on multiple existing classes and cause design bottlenecks all over the place. Class design and abilities is not static in WoW, so moving forward you're going to have to come up with new abilities for a Necromancer, Warlock, Death Knight and Shadow Priest and all four are going to continuously clash with each other forever. As it stands now, you can place all the caster-based Necromancer concepts into the Warlock class. You can place the summoning, undead, and Lich concepts into the Death Knight, and you can place the shadow-based healing concepts into Shadow Priests. You bring a Necromancer into that and now you're simply going to have a mess that really won't benefit anyone.

Observe what's currently happening with Demon Hunters to see what pitfalls emerge when a class only has 2 specs to work with.

1. Priests and paladins

2. You need not restate my own statement about how those abilities are not unique to WoW.

3. You conveniently left out my point about how Blizzard is very capable of creating unique abilities that would help differentiate classes, IE monks and especially DHs.

4. Nevermind "we already have classes that do that". Druids are literal copies of warriors and rogues. Going as far as nearly copying their entire kits.

5. I get you're a massive fan for tinkers and would much rather that come first, but you still have zero argument for why necromancers can't be done. Other than, well, a second death themed expansion released without a necromancer class. Third time's the charm though, am I right? You've got plenty of time for tinkers to rise and shine.

[jellmoo]

Arthas seems to have been the start of a new generation. he wasnt a priest. he was trained more like a warrior before getting infused with Light magic that made him a paladin.

But there's nothing that actually indicates that he was trained any differently than other Paladins, except for the fact that he was a Prince. I mean, Arthas was trained by Uther, and Uther himself was originally a Priest.