1. #4361
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    While I said you get the last word, I had to address these two points;

    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Except we're talking about things that are functionally different. And even if they're similar, there's zero reason that they can't be changed to be... you guessed it... functionally different.
    I would just like to point out that all of those abilities I listed were functionally the same as yours.

    There's more chance of them adding a class with nothing but DPS specs than there is of them adding a class limited to Gnomes and Goblins.
    Nah, there really isn't. Blizzard has stated in the past that DPS classes are highly disadvantaged against hybrid classes, and if they could do it again, no class would be pure DPS. The fact that every expansion class has been hybrid since, backs that up.

  2. #4362
    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    You're comparing what would be a regular class (ie monk, who also had very little background until MoP) to hero classes, classes based off of, well, heroes from WCIII.
    Yes i don't think Tinkers (or whatever Blizzard would call a Tech-class) would be designed after a particular hero the same way hero classes are designed after a particular iconic character mostly because the closest thing to an "iconic tinker" we have is Gazlowe or Mekkatorque who are D tier characters at best.

    Same way the Monk wasn't designed on the fantasy of "being Chen Stormstout" and wasn't based entirely around the brewmaster/drunken boxer fantasy, it instead based itself on the more broad and standard fantasy monk archetypes like shaolin/wuxia martial artists and mystics (and then given a warcraft coat of paint in the form of pandaren culture), a Tinker class being entirely designed around being a comic relief midget in a mech suit who uses chicken bombs and shrink rays would be like if the Monk class was instead the Brewmaster class and based entirely around brewing and being drunk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    DHs worked being exclusive to NE/BEs. You have no argument other than "I really don't like tinkers and think nobody else should either".
    Not wanting a class concept I like being based around being a comic relief jokes means i don't like it? I like the idea of a Tech-class in fantasy settings, I like the artificer in D&D, Engineers in Warhammer fantasy, Machinists in Final Fantasy, Engineers in Guild Wars, ect. What I don't like is the same "small man made wacky device XD" joke we've had with Gnome/Goblin tech since the games inception, I wouldn't want a concept i like to be burdened with being entirely associated with two comic relief joke races, especially when we've seen more serious takes on technology in the warcraft universe from Dwarves, the Iron Horde and the Lightforged Draenei, I'd prefer if such a class would allow for such fantasies (dwarf/orc engineer, Draenei artificer) to be represented as well instead of being entirely about two races who have been nothing but comic relief since their introduction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    ...As is with all arguments against classes, nobody truly has any proper argument against them other than "I just don't like it and think you shouldn't either". This whole "butbutbut compare to the hero classes!" "Bbbbubtbutbut racial exclusivity!" "Bbbbbbbbbbb the WCIII bible doesn't say much about it!" "Bbbutbutbutbut X is too similar to Y therefore we can't have a class that shares the same aesthetics and ideas!"
    I don't like the idea of a comic relief tech-class, other people like Teriz do, it's perfectly fair for them to like it. It's just that I don't think a class should be designed entirely around that kind of aesthetic and tone, ideally if a tech-class became a thing those that like the comic relief gnome/goblin in a mech suit aesthetic would be free to make a gnome/goblin Tinker and have that comic relief inventor fantasy be available, meanwhile others would be free to make a non-gnome/goblin Tinker and be able to have their fantasy of a more serious take on a tech-class available.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    When we once had paladins and shamans, who were both bound to one race and one race only until TBC. When we have had monks, who weren't much of a thing until MoP, even having to borrow from Pandaren Brewmasters from WCIII. When we have DHs who are bound to two races and two races only. When we have priests and paladins, warlocks and DHs being classes thematically tied to one another but still being different enough.
    Yes Paladins and Shamans once had a more specific fantasy of a holy light worshipping knight and a tribal spellcaster, now they've evolved and changed into something that allows for a more broad range of fantasies (such as the Zandalari prelate and the Tauren Sunwalker or the Dwarf and Kul Tiran shaman), I consider that a good thing. I think most classes should be designed around a broad range of archetypes to allow for more ways a particular concept can be expressed.

    Hero classes being based on a more specific fantasy is fine because they're tied to a specific character and have their fantasies based on that particular character. Arthas for Death Knights and Illidan for Demon Hunters, I don't think Tinker's can be designed like that because they likely wouldn't be a hero class due to lacking a popular iconic character to base/represent that fantasy and should instead be designed to incorporate a more broad range of fantasies related to the idea of a tech-class, this doesn't mean the "gnome/goblin wacky inventor in a mech suit" fantasy can't be there but it would be designed as only a part of a greater concept, same way the Pandaren brewmaster became a spec of the much more broadly applicable Monk class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stardrift View Post
    What's next? Necromancers can't be a thing because of DKs and shadowpriests? LOL c'mon
    I'd say as long as the overall class concept can be made distinct any overlap between specs is insignificant. We already have signicant overlap between things like Shadow Priests and Affliction Warlocks who are both shadow based spellcasters who use damage over time spells or Holy Paladins & Holy Priests are both Holy Light using healers but they are made distinct both due to the overall differences between how the base class operates and how the invidual specs operate (priest class having shadow/mind spells, Holy Paladins being frontline healers).

    A Necromancer class as long as it was distinct in terms of visuals, gameplay or fantasy would be perfectly fine even though we have Death Knights, Affliction Warlocks & Shadow Priests of which there are plenty of distinctions that exist or could exist. We already have the spellcaster vs melee distinction (meaning necromancers can exist alongside death knights same way paladins exist alongside priests), we could have different types of magic or different ways it can be used such as Blood healing instead of tanking, poison-based spells, insect summoning, bone spikes/spears/projectiles vs bone armor/storms, constructs instead of zombies/ghouls, Anima based magic. thematically it could be based on the themes of the Shadowlands realms instead of the Scourge or the elements of the scourge not represented much within the Death Knight class (such as nerubians and constructs)
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2021-02-08 at 02:31 PM.

  3. #4363
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    Yes i don't think Tinkers (or whatever Blizzard would call a Tech-class) would be designed after a particular hero the same way hero classes are designed after a particular iconic character mostly because the closest thing to an "iconic tinker" we have is Gazlowe or Mekkatorque who are D tier characters at best.

    Same way the Monk wasn't designed on the fantasy of "being Chen Stormstout" and wasn't based entirely around the brewmaster/drunken boxer fantasy, it instead based itself on the more broad and standard fantasy monk archetypes like shaolin/wuxia martial artists and mystics (and then given a warcraft coat of paint in the form of pandaren culture), a Tinker class being entirely designed around being a comic relief midget in a mech suit who uses chicken bombs and shrink rays would be like if the Monk class was instead the Brewmaster class and based entirely around brewing and being drunk.
    While the Monk wasn't completely designed around Chen Stormstout's hero, it's hard to argue that the Monk class wasn't designed around his concept. The class is based on Pandaren culture, and the hero unit was called the Pandaren Brewmaster. Also in early iterations of the Monk class you had brewing abilities in all three specs, and each spec had their own unique set of brews that they would use to empower themselves. Brewmasters had Purifying Brew and could brew Elusive Brew. Windwalker Monks had Energizing Elixir and could Brew Tigerseye Brew. Mistweavers had Thunderfocus Tea and could brew Mana Tea. All specs had Fortifying Brew, Nimble Brew, and Healing Elixir via talents. They even got exclusive weapon and armor options that resembled the Brewmaster hero from WC3.

    So when you take all of that together, the Monk class took a lot from the Brewmaster hero.

    If Blizzard applies that same strategy to a Tinker class based on the Goblin Tinker and possibly the Goblin Alchemist heroes, then yeah you're looking at a class that is going to have a lot of Goblin themes at play. Sure Blizzard will no doubt pull from broad tech themes, but those tech themes will be funneled through a Goblin/Gnome filter.

    Will that appeal to everyone? Obviously not, but as with the Monk class, Blizzard appears to very much like having their own unique spin on their class concepts. Thus when you think of a WoW Necromancer, it's a big hulking juggernaut with a broad sword, not a frail spell caster. When you think of a WoW Monk, it's not a barechested bald guy doing martial arts, it's a anthropomorphic panda with a staff in one hand and a magical brew in the other.

    Obviously WoW's technology class would be no different. It's going to be something uniquely Blizzard, and a technology class firmly based in Goblin and Gnome tech would be exactly that.

  4. #4364
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    I'd say as long as the overall class concept can be made distinct any overlap between specs is insignificant. We already have signicant overlap between things like Shadow Priests and Affliction Warlocks who are both shadow based spellcasters who use damage over time spells or Holy Paladins & Holy Priests are both Holy Light using healers but they are made distinct both due to the overall differences between how the base class operates and how the invidual specs operate (priest class having shadow/mind spells, Holy Paladins being frontline healers).

    A Necromancer class as long as it was distinct in terms of visuals, gameplay or fantasy would be perfectly fine even though we have Death Knights, Affliction Warlocks & Shadow Priests of which there are plenty of distinctions that exist or could exist. We already have the spellcaster vs melee distinction (meaning necromancers can exist alongside death knights same way paladins exist alongside priests), we could have different types of magic or different ways it can be used such as Blood healing instead of tanking, poison-based spells, insect summoning, bone spikes/spears/projectiles vs bone armor/storms, constructs instead of zombies/ghouls, Anima based magic. thematically it could be based on the themes of the Shadowlands realms instead of the Scourge or the elements of the scourge not represented much within the Death Knight class (such as nerubians and constructs)
    Battle for Azeroth introduced and Shadowlands expanded upon a new type of necromancy graphic that is wholly different from the DK's: a dark, sickly green-ish graphic as opposed to the DK's purple one. That is enough to be sufficiently different in graphics, especially considering both warlocks and fire share the "orange/yellow fire" graphic for their fire specs, and DKs and mages share the "blue ice" graphic for their frost specs.

    Battle for Azeroth also introduced a second type of blood magic (blood sacrifice/ritual) that is different from the DK's vampiric magic in concept, one that can be used for a healing spec, which is further differentiation from the death knight and warlock classes.

    Last, but not least, we have the fact that a class concept of a light-armored, ranged character who relies solely on spellcasting inherently plays differently than a class concept of a heavy-armored, melee character who most of their attacks rely on weapon swings. So that, alone, debunks any and all claims that "necromancers and DKs have the same-y gameplay".
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
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  5. #4365
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    While the Monk wasn't completely designed around Chen Stormstout's hero, it's hard to argue that the Monk class wasn't designed around his concept. The class is based on Pandaren culture, and the hero unit was called the Pandaren Brewmaster. Also in early iterations of the Monk class you had brewing abilities in all three specs, and each spec had their own unique set of brews that they would use to empower themselves. Brewmasters had Purifying Brew and could brew Elusive Brew. Windwalker Monks had Energizing Elixir and could Brew Tigerseye Brew. Mistweavers had Thunderfocus Tea and could brew Mana Tea. All specs had Fortifying Brew, Nimble Brew, and Healing Elixir via talents. They even got exclusive weapon and armor options that resembled the Brewmaster hero from WC3.

    So when you take all of that together, the Monk class took a lot from the Brewmaster hero.
    The Monk class was not designed around the fantasy of the Pandaren Brewmaster or Chen Stormstout, the Pandaren Brewmaster is inspired by the "Drunken Boxing" concept in chinese martial arts where one mimics the movements of a drunk person, there is a joke/warcraft flavor is that the Pandaren brewmaster is actually drunk, every single pandaren brewmaster ability except storm, earth, fire refences this idea, Breath of Fire is spitting out alchohol set on fire, Drunken Haze is coating them in alcohol, Drunken Brawler is the unpredictable movements of a drunk person. Only Storm, Earth and Fire doesn't tie into this concept of a actually Drunken Boxer (and also didn't become a part of the brewmaster spec), everything about the Brewmaster Spec in WoW furthers this from it's animations and abilities further this concept, their animations look like the monk drunk/tipsy, the Stagger passive evokes the idea that they're drunk enough to shrug off attacks

    Absolutely nothing about the Windwalker or Mistweaver evokes the fantasy of a Drunken Boxer, the brews the Mistweaver uses aren't even alcohol they use tea, they are an entirely different type of fantasy from what the Brewmaster is the only thing that they share is the that they also draw from other martial arts/east asian fantasy archetypes. Windwalker is a shaolin type martial artist, Mistweaver is a mystic/folk/herbal healer, the Windwalker isn't killing people with alcohol and the Mistweaver isn't healing people with alcohol, they have entirely different fantasies from what the brewmaster hero in WC3 and the Brewmaster spec represent

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Obviously WoW's technology class would be no different. It's going to be something uniquely Blizzard, and a technology class firmly based in Goblin and Gnome tech would be exactly that.
    That does not mean that the tone, aesthetic or fantasy would be solely based on the comic relief stylings of Gnomes and Goblins, just like how the Monk class was not based solely on the fantasy of a drunken boxer that the Pandaren Brewmaster unit represented, Windwalkers and Mistweavers are something completly different and only related by sharing the trait of being a martial arts archetype.

    On this reasoning, I don't think a tech-class would be solely based on the fantasy or tone of being a wacky comic relief Gnome/Goblin a mech suit, same way Monks didn't become a Brewmaster class based entirely around being a Drunk Panda, it would likely become a element of a single spec such as a Mech suit tank spec.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Battle for Azeroth introduced and Shadowlands expanded upon a new type of necromancy graphic that is wholly different from the DK's: a dark, sickly green-ish graphic as opposed to the DK's purple one. That is enough to be sufficiently different in graphics, especially considering both warlocks and fire share the "orange/yellow fire" graphic for their fire specs, and DKs and mages share the "blue ice" graphic for their frost specs.
    Agreed, Shadowlands done a lot on expanding what Death-based Magic can look/do and I think in the future a class based around the themes of the Shadowlands zones could work such as a poison/insect spec based on the themes of Ardenweald, a bone/flesh/construct spec based on themes of Maldraxxus and a Anima/Blood healer spec based on themes of Revendreth.

    Blood Trolls and Bwonsamdi also showed a different take on Blood Magic and Necromancy that could also work as inspirations.
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2021-02-08 at 03:22 PM.

  6. #4366
    Pit Lord Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Necromancers and death knights are fundamentally different. The mechanic of DKs is runic power and runes. Necromancer would absolutely be a mana based caster. That alone separates them enough to make necromancer into a class. Also, Diablo 3's necromancer isn't based on the fucking DK. It's based on the Diablo 2 necromancer. You can't fucking be serious with that comment.
    I think they could have another resoruce too, maybe called Anima or something? And they could be like the Shadow Priest where a few of their spells cost Mana, and the rest generate stuff?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Also, they could be a Mail Tank/DPS/Heal class too

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  7. #4367
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    The Monk class was not designed around the fantasy of the Pandaren Brewmaster or Chen Stormstout, the Pandaren Brewmaster is inspired by the "Drunken Boxing" concept in chinese martial arts where one mimics the movements of a drunk person, there is a joke/warcraft flavor is that the Pandaren brewmaster is actually drunk, every single pandaren brewmaster ability except storm, earth, fire refences this idea, Breath of Fire is spitting out alchohol set on fire, Drunken Haze is coating them in alcohol, Drunken Brawler is the unpredictable movements of a drunk person. Only Storm, Earth and Fire doesn't tie into this concept of a actually Drunken Boxer (and also didn't become a part of the brewmaster spec), everything about the Brewmaster Spec in WoW furthers this from it's animations and abilities further this concept, their animations look like the monk drunk/tipsy, the Stagger passive evokes the idea that they're drunk enough to shrug off attacks

    Absolutely nothing about the Windwalker or Mistweaver evokes the fantasy of a Drunken Boxer, the Mistweavers brews are tea's, they are an entirely different type of fantasy from what the Brewmaster is the only thing that they share is the that they also draw from other martial arts/east asian fantasy archetypes. Windwalker is a shaolin type martial artist, Mistweaver is a mystic/folk/herbal healer, the Windwalker isn't killing people with alcohol and the Mistweaver isn't healing people with alcohol, they have entirely different fantasies from what the brewmaster hero in WC3 and the Brewmaster spec represent
    Again, where do you think the Pandaren aesthetic and iconography of the Monk class comes from? Where do you think brew aspects of the class come from? Without the Pandaren and brewing concepts within the Monk class, you would have a completely different class.

    That does not mean that the tone, aesthetic or fantasy would be solely based on the comic relief stylings of Gnomes and Goblins, just like how the Monk class was not based solely on the fantasy of a drunken boxer that the Pandaren Brewmaster unit represented, Windwalkers and Mistweavers are something completly different and only related by sharing the trait of being a martial arts archetype.

    On this reasoning, I don't think a tech-class would be solely based on the fantasy or tone of being a wacky comic relief Gnome/Goblin a mech suit, same way Monks didn't become a Brewmaster class based entirely around being a Drunk Panda, it would likely become a element of a single spec such as a Mech suit tank spec.
    It's important to note that not every aspect of Goblin/Gnome tech concepts are comic relief. It's there, but there are serious aspects as well. Iron Juggernaut, Iron Star, Mekkatorque's Mech, Gazlowe's HotS abilities, etc. are not inherently wacky concepts, and some concepts like the irradiation of Gnomeregan and Goblin experiments on Hobgoblins have some rather dark elements. So, a tech-class wouldn't be solely comic-relief or whacky simply because it revolves around Goblins and Gnomes. It would be more light-hearted than Death Knights and Demon Hunters, but not inherently ridiculous or silly.

    Also there ARE WoW players looking for a more light-hearted class like the Monk class since we just had the Demon Hunter Class.

  8. #4368
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, where do you think the Pandaren aesthetic and iconography of the Monk class comes from? Where do you think brew aspects of the class come from? Without the Pandaren and brewing concepts within the Monk class, you would have a completely different class.
    From chinese culture? Blizzard don't really invent the wheel when it comes fantasy. They are pretty derivative, Monk classes in fantasy since forever have drawn from chinese and other east asian cultures.

    The specs themselves are based on chinese/wuxia martial arts archetypes, the august celestials are based on the four cardinal guardians, the pandaren themselves are obviously based on chinese culture (and things like the mogu are based on chinese guardian lions), they basically just gave everything a fantasy coat of paint. making a chinese culture equivilent pandas isn't that unique since it's their fucking national animal, the most flavor they really give the concepts is making the Drunken Boxer martial artist actually drunk which is more just exaggerating a concept than inventing something new.

    I would say the only truly unqiue or non-derivative element of the Monk class is that the Mistweavers use the eponymous Mists of Pandaria the expansion is named after and even that can just be seen as a extension of elementalism since it's water vapor, other than that it's relatively standard fantasy monk flair. I'd honestly say the Diablo 3 Monk is a more original take on a Monk class since it combines holy/divine powers typical of a cleric or paladin with eastern martial arts and the character has eurasian/eastern european style instead of just a chinese/east asian style

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    It's important to note that not every aspect of Goblin/Gnome tech concepts are comic relief. It's there, but there are serious aspects as well. Iron Juggernaut, Iron Star, Mekkatorque's Mech, Gazlowe's HotS abilities, etc. are not inherently wacky concepts, and some concepts like the irradiation of Gnomeregan and Goblin experiments on Hobgoblins have some rather dark elements. So, a tech-class wouldn't be solely comic-relief or whacky simply because it revolves around Goblins and Gnomes. It would be more light-hearted than Death Knights and Demon Hunters, but not inherently ridiculous or silly.
    And notice when it comes to the forefrought it usually drops the overly comedic stylings that Gnome/Goblin tech is used for in every other circumstances, the Iron Juggernaut and Iron Stars weren't even mainly used by Goblins it was used by the True/Iron Horde. So yeah i think if the technological elements of WoW get their own class I don't think it would be represented in a comedic fashion, and if it isn't treated in a comic relief way it really has no business being exclusive to comic relief races like Gnomes and Goblins and should be available to a wider set of races especially other races who have shown a openess to technology either by inventing their own or being open to using others like Dwarves, Draenei, Nightborne and Orcs/Mag'har and Forsaken (if alchemy is a part of it)

    I don't have issue with it using the surface level aesthetics (for the races that use that style i think Draenei/Nightborne should use their respective magi-tech style of technology) since thats the established look of that what most technology looks like in Warcraft but i don't think it needs to also be entirely about Chicken bombs, shrink rays, clockwork midgets, clawpacks and other overly comedic or wacky forms of it, especially since that doesn't fit non-goblin/gnome races.
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2021-02-08 at 04:03 PM.

  9. #4369
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    I think they could have another resoruce too, maybe called Anima or something? And they could be like the Shadow Priest where a few of their spells cost Mana, and the rest generate stuff?
    I think just being a pure mana caster is fine, but we know Blizzard, they'll likely tack on a secondary resource like they did with almost all offensive spellcasters. If we are to come up with a secondary resource for necromancers, based off of my concept, I'd say something akin to "necrotic power": something akin to "all mana spent on spells is converted to Necrotic Power" which is then used to fuel a special ability that empowers the necromancer, likely for a set period of time according to how much necrotic power they had when activating the the ability, by either increasing their damage by a %, or increasing the length of their dots by a % as well.

    Also, they could be a Mail Tank/DPS/Heal class too
    That is something I'll disagree on. Necromancers shouldn't wear mail, or even tank, when we have the death knight class. That's like saying priests should be able to wear mail and tank, when we have the paladin already. No, in my opinion, necromancers should be cloth only (no leather since we have 4 of those already) and no tank specs. Just a healer spec (if that) and then the rest are DPS specs.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    Agreed, Shadowlands done a lot on expanding what Death-based Magic can look/do and I think in the future a class based around the themes of the Shadowlands zones could work such as a poison/insect spec based on the themes of Ardenweald, a bone/flesh/construct spec based on themes of Maldraxxus and a Anima/Blood healer spec based on themes of Revendreth.
    I think we can leave the Revendreth theme alone, considering it draws heavily on the 'gothic vampire' aesthetic and themes, something the DKs have already: vampirism.

    Blood Trolls and Bwonsamdi also showed a different take on Blood Magic and Necromancy that could also work as inspirations.
    I based my necromancer blood concept on the blood trolls, and I'll be keeping it for my next iteration of my concept I'm slowly working on.
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2021-02-08 at 03:53 PM.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  10. #4370
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    From chinese cultures? Blizzard don't really invent the wheel when it comes fantasy. They are pretty derivative, Monk classes in fantasy since forever have drawn from chinese and other east asian cultures.

    The specs themselves are based on chinese/wuxia martial arts archetypes, the august celestials are based on the four cardinal guardians, the pandaren are obviously based on chinese culture, the mogu are based on chinese guardian lions they basically just gave them a fantasy coat of paint. making a chinese culture equivilent panda's isn't that unique since it's their fucking national animal, the most flavor they really give the concepts is making the Drunken Boxer martial artist actually drunk which is more just exaggerating a concept than inventing something new.
    Yeah, because the Pandaren concept in of itself is based on China, Chinese folklore, and Chinese history. So obviously when you expand the Pandaren theme, you're going to start absorbing more of the base influence. However that still doesn't change the fact that when Blizzard created the Monk class, they used the Pandaren theme and concept to base the class on.

    I would say the only truly unqiue or non-derivitive element of the Monk class is that the Mistweavers use the eponymous Mists of Pandaria the expansion is named after, other than that it's relatively standard fantasy monk flair. I'd honestly say the Diablo 3 Monk is a more original take on a Monk class since it combines holy/divine powers with eastern martial arts and the character eurasian/eastern european style instead of just a chinese/east asian style
    Then by all means, find me a Monk class in a RPG game where they're using an assortment of brews to empower themselves.


    And notice when it comes to the forefrought it usually drops the overly comedic stylings that Gnome/Goblin tech is used for in every other circumstances, the Iron Juggernaut and Iron Stars weren't even mainly used by Goblins it was used by the True/Iron Horde. So yeah i think if the technological elements of WoW get their own class I don't think it would be represented in a comedic fashion, and if it isn't treated in a comic relief way it really has no business being exclusive to comic relief races like Gnomes and Goblins and should be available to a wider set of races especially other races who have shown a openess to technology either by inventing their own or being open to using others like Dwarves, Draenei, Nightborne and Orcs/Mag'har and Forsaken (if alchemy is a part of it)
    The Iron Juggernaut and the Iron Star were both invented by Helix Blackfuse, and we have two cutscenes where Blackfuse appears before a fight bragging about his inventions and getting pissed when you destroy them, especially the Iron Juggernaut which was clearly his pride and joy. So you never had any doubt who was behind both inventions, even when the Iron Horde started using Iron Stars as engines for their war machines in WoD. You also have Mekkatorque's mech which isn't whacky or silly, but when he appears as a boss character in Battle of Drazelor (sp?) he has whimsical abilities like P.L.O.T. Armor and Exploding sheep.

    As I said before, there's nothing inherently wrong with that, and honestly there's probably a sizable population of WoW players who would welcome a class like that over another dark and edgy class.

    I don't have issue with it using the surface level aesthetics (for the races that use that style i think Draenei/Nightborne should use their respective magi-tech style of technology) of since thats the established look of that what technology is in Warcraft but i don't think it needs to also be entirely about Chicken bombs, shrink rays, clockwork midgets, clawpacks and other overly comedic or wacky forms of it, especially since that doesn't fit non-goblin/gnome races.
    Well you have to think about it in terms of class mechanics; Is there a legitimate purpose for a class ability that shrinks a target? Absolutely. Is there a legitimate purpose for a class ability that drops a factory that mass produces clockwork gnomes or goblins? Again, absolutely. Is there a legitimate purpose for a mechanical backpack that acts as a weapons platform that can launch missiles, deploy pocket factories, drop turrets, and has the ability of its arms to transform from claws/hands to cannons? Again, absolutely.

    In the end, every class isn't meant to appeal to every person. We also shouldn't dismiss a concept because it doesn't resemble the aesthetic of other games. Yeah, the Monk class in WoW threw me for a loop when it was first introduced, but when I think back to RPG Monk classes I've played, I realized that I played WoW's monk the most because the brewing aspect was always interesting to me. Which is why I hope Blizzard brings out a technology class, because given their track record, they could make a unique and interesting one.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-02-08 at 04:11 PM.

  11. #4371
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Then by all means, find me a Monk class in a RPG game where they're using an assortment of brews to empower themselves.
    The simple fact you have to severely restrict the pool of sources to "RPG only" shows how full of BS you are, because you know that your argument falls to pieces when one realizes that Blizzard does not base their ideas solely on other games, and RPG games only, at that, but in all media as a whole. At that point we see that "drunken martial arts" is a common sight in medieval and modern fantasy as a whole.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
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  12. #4372
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Yeah, because the Pandaren concept in of itself is based on China, Chinese folklore, and Chinese history. So obviously when you expand the Pandaren theme, you're going to start absorbing more of the base influence. However that still doesn't change the fact that when Blizzard created the Monk class, they used the Pandaren theme and concept to base the class on.
    And they based Pandaren culture on chinese culture and it's archetypes which is where things like Shaolin-style Windwalkers, Mystic-style Mistweavers, August Celestials, Chi, the Brewmaster drunken boxing style animations come from from and these inspirations aren't anything new they have been tropes associated with Monk and Monk-like classes since forever.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Then by all means, find me a Monk class in a RPG game where they're using an assortment of brews to empower themselves.
    Drunken Master monk archetype from the advanced players guide for pathfinder from 2010

    "Most monks lead lives of moderation and quiet contemplation. But the drunken master finds perfection through excess. Powered by strong wine, he uses his intoxication to reach a state where his ki is more potent, if somewhat fleeting. A drunken master has the following class features."

    "Drunken Ki (Su)
    At 3rd level, a drunken master can drink a tankard of ale or strong alcohol and gain one temporary ki point. The act of drinking is a standard action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. "

    "Drunken Courage (Su)

    At 11th level, a drunken master is immune to fear as long as he has at least 1 point of drunken ki. "

    "Drunken Resilience (Ex)

    At 13th level, a drunken master gains DR 1/— as long as he has at least 1 point of drunken ki. At 16th level, the DR increases to 2/—. At 19th level, it increases to 3/—. "

    "Firewater Breath (Su)

    At 19th level, a drunken master can take a drink and expel a gout of alcohol-fueled fire in a 30-foot cone. Creatures within the cone take 20d6 points of fire damage. A successful Reflex saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 the monk’s level + the monk’s Wis modifier) halves the damage. Using this ability is a standard action that consumes 4 ki points from the monk’s ki pool. The monk must have at least 1 drunken ki point to use this ability. "


    Minor one from Monk: Way of the Drunken Master which is a monastic tradition tradition from Xanthar's guide to everything for 5e D&D

    "When you choose this tradition at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in the Performance skill if you don't already have it. Your martial arts technique mixes combat training with the precision of a dancer and the antics of a jester. You also gain proficiency with brewer's supplies if you don't already have it."

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The simple fact you have to severely restrict the pool of sources to "RPG only" shows how full of BS you are, because you know that your argument falls to pieces when one realizes that Blizzard does not base their ideas solely on other games, and RPG games only, at that, but in all media as a whole. At that point we see that "drunken martial arts" is a common sight in medieval and modern fantasy as a whole.
    Didn't even take a minute to find an RPG class/archetype from before Mists of Pandaria who empowered himself with alcohol, Drunken martial arts is not something Blizzard invented, hell practically nothing from WoW was invented by Blizzard 90% of it is derivative in some manner.
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2021-02-08 at 04:31 PM.

  13. #4373
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    The simple fact you have to severely restrict the pool of sources to "RPG only" shows how full of BS you are, because you know that your argument falls to pieces when one realizes that Blizzard does not base their ideas solely on other games, and RPG games only, at that, but in all media as a whole. At that point we see that "drunken martial arts" is a common sight in medieval and modern fantasy as a whole.
    If what the WoW Monk presents is common, there should be no problem finding another monk class in RPGs, ARPGs, or MMORPGs that also use an assortment of brews to fight with.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    And they based Pandaren culture on chinese culture.
    Yeah, I said that.

    and it's archetypes which is where things like Shaolin-style Windwalkers, Mystic-style Mistweavers, August Celestials, Chi, the Brewmaster drunken boxing style animations come from from and these inspirations aren't anything new they have been tropes associated with Monk and Monk-like classes since forever.
    And they're all drinking brews to enhance themselves. Even the Windwalkers and the Mistweavers. Thats the point.

    Drunken Master monk archetype from the advanced players guide for pathfinder from 2010 (so 2 years before mists of pandaria)
    You do know that the Pandaren Brewmaster class dates back to 2008 right?

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Brewmaster

    And btw, I was talking about the non-Drunken master Monk. Again, the Windwalker monk isn't a drunken-style trope, but it still uses brews to fight with.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-02-08 at 04:33 PM.

  14. #4374
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You do know that the Pandaren Brewmaster class dates back to 2008 right?

    https://wow.gamepedia.com/Brewmaster
    And do you think the Paizo games took the concept from Blizzard for their own TRPG or is "Drunken martial artist" something thats not an inventive concept since the Drunken Boxer has been a concept since at least the 14th-century

    "Water Margin (simplified Chinese: 水浒传; traditional Chinese: 水滸傳; pinyin: Shuǐhǔ Zhuàn), also translated as Outlaws of the Marsh, Tale of the Marshes or All Men Are Brothers, is a 14th-century Chinese novel attributed to Shi Nai'an."

    "It has introduced readers to many of the best-known characters in Chinese literature, such as Song Jiang, Wu Song, Lin Chong and Lu Zhishen."

    "Wu Song is a martial arts student of Zhou Tong and specialises in Chuojiao. In the novel he fights well with bang (quarterstaff) or a pair of broadswords."

    "Wu demonstrates his physical might by lifting with one hand a hefty urn. He also says his fighting ability is at its peak when he is drunk"

    It's almost like the Pandaren Brewmaster is based on a stock chinese fantasy/martial arts archetype instead of an original concept.
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2021-02-08 at 04:46 PM.

  15. #4375
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    And do you think the Paizo games took the concept from Blizzard for their own TRPG or is "Drunken martial artist" something thats not an inventive concept since the Drunken Boxer has been a concept since at least the 14th-century

    "Water Margin (simplified Chinese: 水浒传; traditional Chinese: 水滸傳; pinyin: Shuǐhǔ Zhuàn), also translated as Outlaws of the Marsh, Tale of the Marshes or All Men Are Brothers, is a 14th-century Chinese novel attributed to Shi Nai'an."

    "It has introduced readers to many of the best-known characters in Chinese literature, such as Song Jiang, Wu Song, Lin Chong and Lu Zhishen."

    "Wu Song is a martial arts student of Zhou Tong and specialises in Chuojiao. In the novel he fights well with bang (quarterstaff) or a pair of broadswords."

    "Wu demonstrates his physical might by lifting with one hand a hefty urn. He also says his fighting ability is at its peak when he is drunk"
    I never said they did. You stated that the Paizo game came out before MoP, I was merely showing you that the Brewmaster concept came out first. And yeah, you found another Drunken Master Monk. My point is that WoW's Monk has the use of brews in all of its specs, even the healing one.

  16. #4376
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If what the WoW Monk presents is common, there should be no problem finding another monk class in RPGs, ARPGs, or MMORPGs that also use an assortment of brews to fight with.
    Jackie Chan movie 'Drunken Master' is one famous movie. The trope is also famous in many other movies in east Asia, as well as many shows and anime featuring martial arts.

    Also:
    • Mortal Kombat: Bo Rai Cho is a drunken martial artist, introduced ten years before Mists of Pandaria.
    • Tekken: Lei Wulong is a martial artist whose moves greatly resemble the 'drunken fist' art style, introduced ten years before Mists of Pandaria.
    • Wakfu: Pandawa is a martial artist character with drunken moves in the game announced before Mists of Pandaria.

    Just three I found with a quick Google search.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  17. #4377
    This is one me and my friend came up with a while ago

    Sorcerer/Witch
    Available races;
    Horde - Troll, Undead, Orc, Blood elf, Nightborne
    Alliance - Human, Gnome, Dwarf, Void Elf, Worgen

    Available Specializations;
    Smoke - A high mobility combo points based ranged caster, using smoke and shadow magic to stay one step ahead of his enemies
    Wicker - A summoner class, able to summon many of the different abbarations we've seen in drustvar
    Blood - A powerful caster, using blood magic to leech from his enemies and own health pool to sustain himself/herself with

  18. #4378
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Jackie Chan movie 'Drunken Master' is one famous movie. The trope is also famous in many other movies in east Asia, as well as many shows and anime featuring martial arts.

    Also:
    • Mortal Kombat: Bo Rai Cho is a drunken martial artist, introduced ten years before Mists of Pandaria.
    • Tekken: Lei Wulong is a martial artist whose moves greatly resemble the 'drunken fist' art style, introduced ten years before Mists of Pandaria.
    • Wakfu: Pandawa is a martial artist character with drunken moves in the game announced before Mists of Pandaria.

    Just three I found with a quick Google search.
    Yeah, you misunderstood. I'm saying a Monk concept that isn't a drunken fighter that is using an assortment of brews to enhance themselves (like Mistweaver and Windwalker). Brews and Brewing is a significant sub theme in the WoW Monk class.

  19. #4379
    Cultist - Cloth
    Desecration : Melee 2H Spec, shapeshifting into the herald of the void/avatar of the old gods on cd,increasing armor and attack speed.. Faceless model with tentacle face etc.
    Sanguination: 1h/ offhand / Staff , Blood caster, uses HP or another resource ( blood) to cast spells, think Vlad in LoL, and using blood offensively as opposed to B DK.
    Plague Doctor: 1h/ offhand / Staff , Heals with leeches / transfusions, Parasites,buffs allies with Fumes, offensive with reflect damage mechanics- deliriums/hysteria
    Last edited by lep; 2021-02-08 at 06:02 PM.

  20. #4380
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    I think they could have another resoruce too, maybe called Anima or something? And they could be like the Shadow Priest where a few of their spells cost Mana, and the rest generate stuff?
    With Shadowlands in play, Anima should definitely be considered a resource for any future Necromancy-related class.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

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