If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[TheRevenantHero]

Pit Lords, Titans, and Old Gods have never allied with us. Dragons have, repeatedly.

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What are “dragon-level” abilities? We encounter dragons at all levels throughout the game.

Dragons are the most powerful creatures on Azeroth. There is no fucking way in hell that they would ever become playable and to suggest that we will is laughable.

[Ielenia]

That's interesting because they sell or wear the WoW class' gear in the Timeless isle.

For example, Virgil is listed as a Warrior, and he's selling Warrior gear;

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=73266

Alundra is listed as a Paladin and is wearing Paladin gear;

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=73353/wa...alundra#outfit

Lyra is listed as a mage and is selling Mage gear;

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=73271/weaver-lyra

I'll repeat: So what?

They're vendors. What they sell is not necessarily a reflection of what they are.

We do not know what player classes they are supposed to be in the Warcraft universe. That is a fact.

[Teriz]

Titans never allied with us? Um...

But above and beyond that, is that really the point?

Yeah, because your comparison doesn't measure up. I mean we mow down drakes and dragons constantly in Warcraft. They're not like Pitlords, Titans, and Old Gods. The Aspects? Sure. But regular dragons? Nope.

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Dragons are the most powerful creatures on Azeroth. There is no fucking way in hell that they would ever become playable and to suggest that we will is laughable.

These are the most powerful creatures on Azeroth?

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=91486/stormwing-drake
https://www.wowhead.com/npc=23687/scorchscale-drake
https://www.wowhead.com/npc=27682/azure-drake

Also didn't Deathwing get corrupted by N'Zoth? So wouldn't that mean that Old Gods > Dragons?

[jellmoo]

Yeah, because your comparison doesn't measure up. I mean we mow down drakes and dragons constantly in Warcraft. They're not like Pitlords, Titans, and Old Gods. The Aspects? Sure. But regular dragons? Nope.

Fine. Replace the above with Wild Gods, Keepers and Nathrezim.

[Ielenia]

then we agree that a dragon class will never happen and this thread should die

Why should this thread die if it's not a thread about dragon classes?

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Also didn't Deathwing get corrupted by N'Zoth? So wouldn't that mean that Old Gods > Dragons?

"Most powerful on Azeroth" =/= "immune to everything and everyone on Azeroth"

On top of that... Old Gods are not from Azeroth.

[TheRevenantHero]

Yeah, because your comparison doesn't measure up. I mean we mow down drakes and dragons constantly in Warcraft. They're not like Pitlords, Titans, and Old Gods. The Aspects? Sure. But regular dragons? Nope.

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These are the most powerful creatures on Azeroth?

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=91486/stormwing-drake
https://www.wowhead.com/npc=23687/scorchscale-drake
https://www.wowhead.com/npc=27682/azure-drake

Also didn't Deathwing get corrupted by N'Zoth? So wouldn't that mean that Old Gods > Dragons?

If you want to talk about the insane idea of making a race into a class then go make another thread about it. Because talking about it here is just utterly asinine.

[Teriz]

Fine. Replace the above with Wild Gods, Keepers and Nathrezim.

Yeah, that's another bad comparison.

I mean, we have dragons sitting in our capital cities. Chromie being the main one. Sometimes in Stormwind Malygos randomly appears above the city.

I don't recall any of the things you mention doing the same.

[jellmoo]

Yeah, that's another bad comparison.

I mean, we have dragons sitting in our capital cities. Chromie being the main one. Sometimes in Stormwind Malygos randomly appears above the city.

I don't recall any of the things you mention doing the same.

So the first list was too powerful to compare. The next ones aren't encountered enough (as though we haven't fought side by side with Wild Gods).

Could you please tell me the magical rules you've made up for this particular comparison or should I just keep guessing until I find something you deem acceptable?

[Teriz]

So the first list was too powerful to compare. The next ones aren't encountered enough (as though we haven't fought side by side with Wild Gods).

Could you please tell me the magical rules you've made up for this particular comparison or should I just keep guessing until I find something you deem acceptable?

Why are we putting dragons on the same level as keepers or wild gods? They’re fairly common, and some are extremely weak. Not every dragon is Ysera, Moruzomd, or Deathwing.

[jellmoo]

Why are we putting dragons on the same level as keepers or wild gods? They’re fairly common, and some are extremely weak. Not every dragon is Ysera, Moruzomd, or Deathwing.

Wild Gods also vary wildly in power. Hell, the strongest of them was killed by juiced up Orcs.

But the point is that you continue to avoid the comparison for arbitrary reasons based on a series of rules only you know.

[Teriz]

Wild Gods also vary wildly in power. Hell, the strongest of them was killed by juiced up Orcs.

Sure, but dragons like these;

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=91920/st...rake#abilities
https://www.wowhead.com/npc=36640/sable-drake
https://www.wowhead.com/npc=110797/stormwing-drake
https://www.wowhead.com/npc=23969/firemane-drake
https://www.wowhead.com/npc=47391/highland-black-drake


Aren't close to any wild gods. They're just dragons, a common mob type in Azeroth with common levels and extremely powerful levels. No different than beasts, demons, or mechanicals.

But the point is that you continue to avoid the comparison for arbitrary reasons based on a series of rules only you know.

Because they're bad comparisons, like the one above. You and Revenant have this idea that all dragons are on the level of the former aspects or like Deathwing, that's simply not the case.

[jellmoo]

Sure, but dragons like these;

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=91920/st...rake#abilities
https://www.wowhead.com/npc=36640/sable-drake
https://www.wowhead.com/npc=110797/stormwing-drake
https://www.wowhead.com/npc=23969/firemane-drake
https://www.wowhead.com/npc=47391/highland-black-drake


Aren't close to any wild gods. They're just dragons, a common mob type in Azeroth with common levels and extremely powerful levels. No different than beasts, demons, or mechanicals.



Because they're bad comparisons, like the one above. You and Revenant have this idea that all dragons are on the level of the former aspects or like Deathwing, that's simply not the case.

Because you're using an in game mechanic to promote a lore based argument. Dragons as presented in lore, are immensely powerful creatures chosen by the Titans to protect the world. You're making them sound like Kobolds and Gnolls, which is simply not the case.

And that is utterly and completely besides the point anyway. You absolutely know what the comparison being made was, and you fully realize that it didn't need to be a 1 to 1 thing. That it is more than possible to conceptualize what the comparison is supposed to entail. There is no need to dance around semantics and another set of arbitrary rules when trying to foster a discussion here. Just discuss the heart of the matter, rather than trying to invalidate it by raising arbitrary point after arbitrary point.

If players are given access to immensely powerful race X as a playable character option, what's to stop the inclusion of immensely powerful races Y and Z? And is that good for the game? Does this not fundamentally change the nature of the game we are playing?

[razorpax]

the thing with dragoon i could see it as either a caster class(cloth), melee class(mail), or a combination of both(mail).

Legend of dragoon

[Teriz]

Because you're using an in game mechanic to promote a lore based argument. Dragons as presented in lore, are immensely powerful creatures chosen by the Titans to protect the world. You're making them sound like Kobolds and Gnolls, which is simply not the case.

And that is utterly and completely besides the point anyway. You absolutely know what the comparison being made was, and you fully realize that it didn't need to be a 1 to 1 thing. That it is more than possible to conceptualize what the comparison is supposed to entail. There is no need to dance around semantics and another set of arbitrary rules when trying to foster a discussion here. Just discuss the heart of the matter, rather than trying to invalidate it by raising arbitrary point after arbitrary point.

If players are given access to immensely powerful race X as a playable character option, what's to stop the inclusion of immensely powerful races Y and Z? And is that good for the game? Does this not fundamentally change the nature of the game we are playing?

You’re really blowing this out of proportion, and really mixing up the different types of dragons. Again, I’m not saying that Blizzard allow us to play as an aspect like Ysera or Alexstraza whom are essentially dragon-gods, but what’s wrong with us playing something akin to Wrathion, Androgos, Erozion, or Verdisa? All of these are members of a dragon flight who can disguise themselves as mortals.

Also you keep acting like these characters are some super all-powerful beings akin to titans and old gods, but meanwhile one of them, Kairozdormu, was killed when he got stabbed by Garrosh. And no, it wasn’t an enchanted knife, and Garrosh wasn’t powered up, it was just and ordinary Orc and an ordinary knife.

Do you think a titan, wild god, old god, keeper, etc. could be killed by getting knifed in the back by a single Orc? Are you saying that characters that can get killed by a lone Orc with a knife are too powerful for us to play as?

[razorpax]

When a dragon class happens you won’t be a dragon in disguise because dragon is a race not a class no matter how many dragons are used in heroes of the storm

You use those and I’ll use HS where you get a blelf that powers up dragons and is themed after the red flight but nooo because hots has a DH in it???

“Being a dragon instead of a bootlicker would be more popular” we have no way of knowing for sure but personally I’d rather be a mortal hero with powers to match the dragons than a dragon who breaks lore because “it’s cooler” there’s a reason even D&D has that in the form of dragon blood wizard

To sit on your throne of “I’m right your wrong because your idea doesn’t fit” would be less laughable if you haven’t been dishonest through the entire thread
“That idea works but don’t call it dragon sworn” to “the same idea but called dragon knight can’t work because dragon knights don’t exist” is an example just from the last few pages

The idea works
Blizz can use existing lore and expand it which is a good thing because if they lacked creativity we would get tinker...oh wait sorry I forgot you changed it to ghostbuster tinker when the SL leak seemed likely then when the dragon expansion leaks happened you were on to a kind of dragon buster theme

[Teriz]

When a dragon class happens you won’t be a dragon in disguise because dragon is a race not a class no matter how many dragons are used in heroes of the storm

Why not? We have HotS abilities showing us unique abilities for this concept, and we have multiple lore characters to base this class off of. What's the issue here?

You use those and I’ll use HS where you get a blelf that powers up dragons and is themed after the red flight but nooo because hots has a DH in it???

The difference being that Blizzard actually uses abilities and concepts from HotS. I haven't seen them use abilities from Hearthstone, and I don't know how you could do it.

“Being a dragon instead of a bootlicker would be more popular” we have no way of knowing for sure but personally I’d rather be a mortal hero with powers to match the dragons than a dragon who breaks lore because “it’s cooler” there’s a reason even D&D has that in the form of dragon blood wizard

You'd be in the minority. Wrathion is a very popular character, based on the future class threads on the official forums and reddit the concept is very popular, and people love dragons. Like I said, the checks would practically write themselves.

To sit on your throne of “I’m right your wrong because your idea doesn’t fit” would be less laughable if you haven’t been dishonest through the entire thread
“That idea works but don’t call it dragon sworn” to “the same idea but called dragon knight can’t work because dragon knights don’t exist” is an example just from the last few pages

The idea works
Blizz can use existing lore and expand it which is a good thing because if they lacked creativity we would get tinker...oh wait sorry I forgot you changed it to ghostbuster tinker when the SL leak seemed likely then when the dragon expansion leaks happened you were on to a kind of dragon buster theme

I'm not sure I said your idea works, but I did say what you're pushing isn't Dragonsworn. Honestly mine isn't either, but at least my concept actually exists in WoW and HotS. Also utilizing established concepts isn't lacking creativity, it's pushing a concept. The creativity has already been taken care of by the HotS team and the creators of the various Dragon characters in WoW. All you need to do now is turn that into a class.

Do you know why you use established concepts? So you don't end up having the situation that you see over in the Bard class concept thread where people say "cool idea, but it doesn't fit WoW".

[jellmoo]

You’re really blowing this out of proportion, and really mixing up the different types of dragons. Again, I’m not saying that Blizzard allow us to play as an aspect like Ysera or Alexstraza whom are essentially dragon-gods, but what’s wrong with us playing something akin to Wrathion, Androgos, Erozion, or Verdisa? All of these are members of a dragon flight who can disguise themselves as mortals.

Also you keep acting like these characters are some super all-powerful beings akin to titans and old gods, but meanwhile one of them, Kairozdormu, was killed when he got stabbed by Garrosh. And no, it wasn’t an enchanted knife, and Garrosh wasn’t powered up, it was just and ordinary Orc and an ordinary knife.

Do you think a titan, wild god, old god, keeper, etc. could be killed by getting knifed in the back by a single Orc? Are you saying that characters that can get killed by a lone Orc with a knife are too powerful for us to play as?

Because Teriz, I keep falling for the same thing again, and again, and again. I keep thinking "Jellmoo, this time, this time I'm sure we'll be able to have an honest and simple discussion about something without Teriz trying to dance away from the topic at hand because he desperately can't ever concede a single, solitary point."

I even laid out the entire point in the last post to try and keep it abstract and away from examples because no matter what example I use I realize you'll find semantic fault with it for arbitrary reasons:

If players are given access to immensely powerful race X as a playable character option, what's to stop the inclusion of immensely powerful races Y and Z? And is that good for the game? Does this not fundamentally change the nature of the game we are playing?

You pick how powerful you think Dragons are. You pick the other creatures that are of a comparable power. That's fine. I just don't want to sit around guessing creature after creature, after creature while you create new criteria to disqualify them from discussion.

[Triceron]

Because you're using an in game mechanic to promote a lore based argument. Dragons as presented in lore, are immensely powerful creatures chosen by the Titans to protect the world.

To be honest though, our characters, specifically our playable characters, are individuals of our race that have been elevated to the level of withstanding and defeating god-like beings. Individually, our adventurers are on the level of Dragons, even if we aren't actually Dragons.

Now, we definitely aren't anywhere near the power of the Aspects or the strongest of Dragons, but we are more than capable of standing toe-to-toe against Dragons, and many of our mortal named heroes are closely associated to Dragons in power as well. Characters like Thrall and Jaina have been elevated to Aspect level of power in many ways. Even the Guardians like Medivh and Aegwynn are examples of mortals who can achieve a greater-than power than Dragons; just look at Netherspite and how Medivh cursed him so easily without batting an eye.

The lore paints a wide gradient of power when it comes to Dragons. We simply associate them as being very powerful beings because they are ancient, but in terms of actual power scale they are much closer now to our mortal characters than ever since Cataclysm took away a portion of the Aspects power and modern lore that began to empower certain heroes like Sylvanas and Tyrande.

At the end of the day, are we arguing against Dragons as a playable Race? And if so, by what reasons? That Dragons are too powerful? Well, by definition, our own races are 'too powerful' when applied as playable characters. The RTS games already set this standard with the 'Hero' system, and the fact that individuals of mortal races can become more powerful than Dragons. Our player characters are equivalent of those Heroes.

[Teriz]

Because Teriz, I keep falling for the same thing again, and again, and again. I keep thinking "Jellmoo, this time, this time I'm sure we'll be able to have an honest and simple discussion about something without Teriz trying to dance away from the topic at hand because he desperately can't ever concede a single, solitary point."

I even laid out the entire point in the last post to try and keep it abstract and away from examples because no matter what example I use I realize you'll find semantic fault with it for arbitrary reasons:

If players are given access to immensely powerful race X as a playable character option, what's to stop the inclusion of immensely powerful races Y and Z? And is that good for the game? Does this not fundamentally change the nature of the game we are playing?

You pick how powerful you think Dragons are. You pick the other creatures that are of a comparable power. That's fine. I just don't want to sit around guessing creature after creature, after creature while you create new criteria to disqualify them from discussion.

Let me ask you an honest question; Do you think a creature that can be killed by an Orc with a knife is too powerful to be playable?

[jellmoo]

Let me ask you an honest question; Do you think a creature that can be killed by an Orc with a knife is too powerful to be playable?

Cool. You aren't actually interested in discussing. That's fine. I'll let others play this game with you then.

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To be honest though, our characters, specifically our playable characters, are individuals of our race that have been elevated to the level of withstanding and defeating god-like beings. Individually, our adventurers are on the level of Dragons, even if we aren't actually Dragons.

Now, we definitely aren't anywhere near the power of the Aspects or the strongest of Dragons, but we are more than capable of standing toe-to-toe against Dragons, and many of our mortal named heroes are closely associated to Dragons in power as well. Characters like Thrall and Jaina have been elevated to Aspect level of power in many ways. Even the Guardians like Medivh and Aegwynn are examples of mortals who can achieve a greater-than power than Dragons; just look at Netherspite and how Medivh cursed him so easily without batting an eye.

The lore paints a wide gradient of power when it comes to Dragons. We simply associate them as being very powerful beings because they are ancient, but in terms of actual power scale they are much closer now to our mortal characters than ever since Cataclysm took away a portion of the Aspects power and modern lore that began to empower certain heroes like Sylvanas and Tyrande.

The thing is, we have moved far away from our characters being anything other than singularly unique. We are at this point, super special heroes that somehow manage to defeat every possible enemy. Conversely, we deal explicitly with in game characters that function similarly. Characters with thicker than steel plot armour and abilities that pretty much defy logic.

The narrative that we are shown does not always follow the narrative that we are given as pieces of the overall story. There's the in game portion where by max level, we've lost track of the sheer number of Dragons we've slain, versus what the overall narrative implies, that Dragons are insanely powerful creatures tasked with guarding Azeroth.

I think it gets really hard to say that Dragons aren't these terrifyingly powerful creatures, when they really, really should be. They are massive flying reptiles with razor sharp teeth and claws, more intelligent than we are, capable of burning down a village and casting arcane spells. They should be scary AF. The question I have is: Is the fact that they aren't a lore thing, as in Dragons are just chumps, or is it a gameplay concept because the game has let us beat up on them for too long? These aren't the same thing.

At the end of the day, are we arguing against Dragons as a playable Race? And if so, by what reasons? That Dragons are too powerful? Well, by definition, our own races are 'too powerful' when applied as playable characters. The RTS games already set this standard with the 'Hero' system, and the fact that individuals of mortal races can become more powerful than Dragons. Our player characters are equivalent of those Heroes.

But where do we draw the line? Do we move to playable Abominations? Grond? Fel Guards? Grove Protectors?

Right now we conceptualize and create characters with set parameters. We make humanoid creatures that select a class and go adventuring. We play as Human Paladins, Orc Warriors, Forsaken Mages, Night Elf Rogues, etc... This is a staple of westernized fantasy. Moving to also allowing a playable Dragon is a massive shift on that. It takes us from being a character on a rise to glory story arc, and shifts us to being the creature that is usually at the end of that arc. It's a paradigm shift to what the game is and has been.

Is it impossible? Of course not. It absolutely could be done. My question here is: Should it?

Because I think it will fundamentally change the nature of the game, and I'm not sure in a positive way.