If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[jellmoo]

Yeah, they don't. Demon Hunters don't have demonic pets and Warlocks do. Demon Hunters have very few ranged abilities and Warlocks are full of such abilities. One controls demons, the other turns into a demon.

Death Knights have several ranged abilities. Death Knights transform into full undead, Death Knights can control the undead. Death Knights can mind control wild undead. Death Knights can summon armies of undead or one minion. I honestly can't think of an aspect of Necromancy that the DK can't do.

Warlocks are primarily ranged characters that use spooky fel magic.
Demon Hunters are primarily melee characters that use spooky fel magic.
Death Knights are primarily melee characters that use spooky death magic.
Necromancers are primarily ranged characters that use spooky death magic.

[Sagenod]

https://www.wowhead.com/spell=191427/metamorphosis

Who should I believe? You or the game?

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Well because we could base the entirety of what a Demon Hunter is on this;



We don't have anything like that for Dragonsworn.

The Drakonid are the closest thing to Dragonsworn.

[Triceron]

No, I'm saying that designing a necromancer ability for Hunters and Demon Hunters isn't the same as designing a necromancy ability for a Necromancer. That would run into the DK's design since the DK is a necromancer.

Necromancy isn't mutually exclusive concept. Anyone who uses Necromancy is a Necromancer, meaning every class and Warlocks are using Necromancy right? Nine of these are a Necromancer class.

Death Knights can become undead via Lichborne.

Which isn't a form.

DKs already generate skeletons.

For melee gameplay in one spec, yes. Very different from Spellcaster gameplay that generates them in all 3 specs

[Teriz]

Warlocks are primarily ranged characters that use spooky fel magic.
Demon Hunters are primarily melee characters that use spooky fel magic.
Death Knights are primarily melee characters that use spooky death magic.
Necromancers are primarily ranged characters that use spooky death magic.

The difference is that DKs have a lot of ranged “spooky death magic”, which is part of the overlap problem.

[Triceron]

The difference is that DKs have a lot of ranged “spooky death magic”, which is part of the overlap problem.

So why aren't you making the same argument between Frost DK and Frost Mages?

Right now DKs are using spooky Frost magic and Mages are using spooky Frost magic when in skeletal mage form.

[Teriz]

Necromancy isn't mutually exclusive concept. Anyone who uses Necromancy is a Necromancer, meaning every class and Warlocks are using Necromancy right? Nine of these are a Necromancer class.

In THIS expansion yes, since this expansion is themed around necromancy.

Where’s the new Necromancer class?

Which isn't a form.

Why would they need a form? They already look undead.

For melee gameplay in one spec, yes. Very different from Spellcaster gameplay that generates them in all 3 specs

Ah so the only difference is melee vs ranged? Like the difference between an Enhancement and Elemental Shaman?

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So why aren't you making the same argument between Frost DK and Frost Mages?

Right now DKs are using spooky Frost magic and Mages are using spooky Frost magic when in skeletal mage form.

Because Frost DKs mix Frost magic with “spooky death magic”.

[jellmoo]

The difference is that DKs have a lot of ranged “spooky death magic”, which is part of the overlap problem.

And Demon Hunters also have ranged spooky fel magic abilities.

Neither one is a ranged class. Both are melee classes.

[Triceron]

Where’s the new Necromancer class?

Same place as the Tinker LOL

Why would they need a form? They already look undead.

You're right, which is a difference from Necromancers which would use a form. You are asking for differences and we illustrated one here. Death Knights wouldn't use a form because they are already undead, while Necromancers can be living, mortal characters.

Because Frost DKs mix Frost magic with “spooky death magic”.

Necromancers mix theirs with Alchemy.

Re: Krick and Ick and Heigan the Unclean

[Ielenia]

Death Knights have several ranged abilities.

That is irrelevant because the class, at its core, is a melee concept. A heavy-armored melee character concept. The necromancer class is not a heavy-armored melee concept. What you're saying is basically saying "we have paladins with several ranged abilities, therefore priests cannot have holy specs and abilities."

No, I'm saying that designing a necromancer ability for Hunters and Demon Hunters

But it's not a necromancer ability since necromancers would have no use for The Hunt or Flayed Shot.

isn't the same as designing a necromancy ability for a Necromancer. That would run into the DK's design since the DK is a necromancer.

But it is the same thing. Abilities for a class are not created in a different way than abilities for covenants. Both are the exact same thing. As for "running into the DK's design", that's a flawed argument because we have frost death knights despite already having frost mages. Frost death knights "run into the mage's design" because the mage has a frost spec. The mage's frost spec suffered in nothing for the existence of the frost death knight, so why is this suddenly a problem?

Death Knights can become undead via Lichborne.

It is a transformation in name only, since the character model does not change at all, like a demon hunter, shaman and even paladin change when they use their abilities. If the necromancer turns into a skeletal mage, or better yet, a lich, that would be an actual transformation.

DKs already generate skeletons.

Read what he wrote. He didn't just say "generate skeletons". He said "generate skeletons through abilities", like my Bone spec concept for the necromancer.

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Because Frost DKs mix Frost magic with “spooky death magic”.

They don't. Their entire rotation is just "spooky frost magic":
• Howling Blast - Frost
• Frost Strike - Frost
• Remorseless Winter - Frost
• Chains of Ice - Frost
• Pillar of Frost - Frost
• Breath of Sindragosa - Frost
• Gathering Storm - Frost
• Frostwyrm's Fury - Frost

Not a single non-frost magic is used in the spec's rotation.

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The difference is that DKs have a lot of ranged “spooky death magic”, which is part of the overlap problem.

And paladins have a lot of ranged "bright holy magic" which overlaps with priests... yet there is zero problems, despite the overlap.

[Teriz]

And Demon Hunters also have ranged spooky fel magic abilities.

A few. Not nearly as many as DKs.

Neither one is a ranged class. Both are melee classes.

No, but UH is about 1 talent away from being a ranged spec.

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Same place as the Tinker LOL

I'm unaware of the technology expansion where there were multiple technology covenants and every class got 2 endgame tech abilities.

You're right, which is a difference from Necromancers which would use a form. You are asking for differences and we illustrated one here. Death Knights wouldn't use a form because they are already undead, while Necromancers can be living, mortal characters.

Necromancers would use a form because they're not undead already. Death Knights are already undead, so why would they need a form to make them look more undead?

Necromancers mix theirs with Alchemy.

Re: Krick and Ick and Heigan the Unclean

That seems rather redundant considering that the purpose behind "alchemy" among the scourge was to create a plague. Death Knights create plagues via magic. For example, Howling Blast also gives the victim Frost Fever. Now why would we want to play a Necromancer that has to use alchemy to spread plague when DKs do it passively via their magical abilities?

[Ielenia]

Necromancers would use a form because they're not undead already. Death Knights are already undead, so why would they need a form to make them look more undead?

You tell us. Why would demon hunters need to transform into demons if they're demons already? (wings, horns, soul bound to the nether, etc)

That seems rather redundant considering that the purpose behind "alchemy" among the scourge was to create a plague. Death Knights create plagues via magic. For example, Howling Blast also gives the victim Frost Fever. Now why would we want to play a Necromancer that has to use alchemy to spread plague when DKs do it passively via their magical abilities?

"That seems rather redundant considering that the purpose behind "fel magic" among the destruction warlocks is to create fire. Mages create fire via arcane magic."
"That seems rather redundant considering that the purpose behind "rune magic" among the frost death knights is to create frost. Mages create frost via arcane magic."

Congratulations. Your argument nullified the destruction warlock and frost death knights.

Although I know you'll ignore this. You've been ignoring all the facts I've been posting so far.

[Teriz]

That is irrelevant because the class, at its core, is a melee concept. A heavy-armored melee character concept. The necromancer class is not a heavy-armored melee concept. What you're saying is basically saying "we have paladins with several ranged abilities, therefore priests cannot have holy specs and abilities."

Where does it say that a Necromancer needs to be a cloth-wearing ranged spell caster? It certainly doesn't mention it in the Ultimate Guide....

But it is the same thing. Abilities for a class are not created in a different way than abilities for covenants. Both are the exact same thing. As for "running into the DK's design", that's a flawed argument because we have frost death knights despite already having frost mages. Frost death knights "run into the mage's design" because the mage has a frost spec. The mage's frost spec suffered in nothing for the existence of the frost death knight, so why is this suddenly a problem?

Frost Death Knights are a combination of this;



And this;



Frost Mages are mainly this;



Simple.

It is a transformation in name only, since the character model does not change at all, like a demon hunter, shaman and even paladin change when they use their abilities. If the necromancer turns into a skeletal mage, or better yet, a lich, that would be an actual transformation.

Yeah, because they're already undead in appearance. It would still be an overlap for a Necromancer to also turn undead. Further if they become lichs that overlaps with both DKs and Frost Mages.

Read what he wrote. He didn't just say "generate skeletons". He said "generate skeletons through abilities", like my Bone spec concept for the necromancer.

All Will Serve generates a Skeleton when you use raise dead. Apocalypse can generate a skeletal Frost mage.

They don't. Their entire rotation is just "spooky frost magic":
• Howling Blast - Frost
• Frost Strike - Frost
• Remorseless Winter - Frost
• Chains of Ice - Frost
• Pillar of Frost - Frost
• Breath of Sindragosa - Frost
• Gathering Storm - Frost
• Frostwyrm's Fury - Frost

Some of which gives the target Frost Fever, which builds up your Runic power and allows you to do things like Sacrificial Pit and Death Strike.

And paladins have a lot of ranged "bright holy magic" which overlaps with priests... yet there is zero problems, despite the overlap.

Again, not as many as DKs. In addition, Paladins don't share the exact same theme as the Priest class, unlike DKs and Necromancers.

[jellmoo]

A few. Not nearly as many as DKs.

They have far fewer abilities overall.

No, but UH is about 1 talent away from being a ranged spec.

And yet they are a melee class that must be in melee range to function. Just like Demon Hunters.

[Teriz]

They have far fewer abilities overall.

Which is irrelevant. The point is that Demon Hunters are very melee centric, while DKs are far more of a hybrid, mixing ranged and melee attacks.

And yet they are a melee class that must be in melee range to function. Just like Demon Hunters.

Incorrect. DKs are far more akin to a battle-mage type of play style instead of what you see in Warriors and Paladins. In fact DKs are closer to Enhancement shaman in their melee to ranged/spell ratio. This is especially the case with Unholy.

[jellmoo]

Incorrect. DKs are far more akin to a battle-mage type of play style instead of what you see in Warriors and Paladins. In fact DKs are closer to Enhancement shaman in their melee to ranged/spell ratio. This is especially the case with Unholy.

Those are all melee classes. They must be in melee range to function. They cannot perform their role outside of melee, and mechanics target them as melee.

[Teriz]

Those are all melee classes. They must be in melee range to function. They cannot perform their role outside of melee, and mechanics target them as melee.

Which is true. However, the abundance of ranged abilities within the DK class makes it more difficult for a ranged class to enter the scene with a similar theme. For example, DKs can summon minions at range like a ranged necromancer could. DKs can send bolts of shadow energy at a target, just like a ranged necromancer could. DKs can summon a pool of shadow magic from range, just like a ranged necromancer could. A DK can infect a target with a DoT from range, just like a ranged necromancer could. A DK can send an exploding zombie at a target at range, just like a ranged necromancer could.

And hence the problem. It's the difference between an enhancement and an elemental shaman.

[jellmoo]

Which is true. However, the abundance of ranged abilities within the DK class makes it more difficult for a ranged class to enter the scene with a similar theme. For example, DKs can summon minions at range like a ranged necromancer could. DKs can send bolts of shadow energy at a target, just like a ranged necromancer could. DKs can summon a pool of shadow magic from range, just like a ranged necromancer could. A DK can infect a target with a DoT from range, just like a ranged necromancer could. A DK can send an exploding zombie at a target at range, just like a ranged necromancer could.

And hence the problem. It's the difference between an enhancement and an elemental shaman.

And at the end of the day, the DK still has to go into melee range and hit the enemy. Just like a Demon Hunter does.

A Warlock does not. And a Necromancer wouldn’t have to either. Hence the difference. One is ranged. One is melee. Both are some variety of spooky.

[Teriz]

And at the end of the day, the DK still has to go into melee range and hit the enemy. Just like a Demon Hunter does.

A Warlock does not. And a Necromancer wouldn’t have to either. Hence the difference. One is ranged. One is melee. Both are some variety of spooky.

So do you feel that Enhancement and Elemental Shaman should be different classes because one is ranged and one is melee?

[FossilFree]

I think Wardrummers would be a very cool class to add! They even have WC3 cred if that matters.



https://wow.gamepedia.com/Kodo_Beast_(Warcraft_III)

[Revamp Man]

So do you feel that Enhancement and Elemental Shaman should be different classes because one is ranged and one is melee?

are demon hunters melee warlock specs??

they arent so dont try to counter his point with a completely unrelated discussion