If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[Teriz]

It's still two turrets, or rather three turrets (as you mentioned earlier), that you have to keep managing. All of them being of the same type or not does not matter, especially since you can still make them do different things, which functionality-wise is no different than a shaman dropping a different type of totem.

And it's all one button instead of dozens of buttons for each different type of totem.

Also where's the management? You drop Rock-it turret and then you press a cooldown when you need it. It's nowhere near as cumbersome as the totem system was.

Because:

Having to decide which buff to give your turrets through an active ability is not functionality different than dropping a different totem through an active ability.

Again, you're buffing an already placed turret. Totems required you to find the proper totem at the proper time and place that totem for its maximum effect. In addition, you had to consider if the new totem you were putting down would cancel out a totem buff that you needed at the time. None of that applies to the turret system.

Seems to me that your class' damage will be mostly coming from your turrets... which is a design I imagine just won't ever happen, as it takes away the player agency. I mean, I could just stay out of line of sight while dropping turrets constantly (every 10 seconds, according to you) to keep attacking my enemies, player or NPC. Not to mention that I imagine those abilities would have a cast time, for balance reasons, which would make it hard and a waste to use all of them one after the other on the same turret.

Also very OP: gaining a shield while all your turrets hit three targets each while also hitting all those targets with one of your most powerful abilities? Sounds VERY over-powered.

And this is the standard go-to when your argument fails; Either the new ability is just like everything else or it's overpowered because it's different.

Didn't you just call the turret buffs "cooldowns"? You did. So, yes, you would still have that exact same problem, of having your stuff "on cooldown" while the warlock is still wailing on you.

No you wouldn't because in a turret system (if it had a taunt and an anti-fear) you wouldn't have lost the turret that was taunting the Demon off of you in order to stop the fear.

You do know that the images show that it's the Broker's "world", not some necromantic zone, right? And the rest are new areas of the Maw and Torghast.

Did you completely skip over the spoiler picture?

BTW, with that Raid boss announcement Dark Rangers are toast as well.

[Katchii]

SNIP

Don't worry, I never expected you to have an honest conversation, I was just pointing out how yet again you're arguing in bad faith and applying completely asinine logic to everyone else's arguments, but your logic is somehow perfect and reasonable.

You've again completely failed to adequately explain why your turret system is different from the totem system. Nothing you've said about the two differentiates them, it boils down to "Because I said so." There's only two reasons for that, either you're being completely intellectually dishonest about it and therefore arguing in bad faith, or you're too stupid to see why they're the same....and you're not stupid, so....

Your brain must be incredibly limber with how much your exercising your mental gymnastics.

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I can only speak for myself, but I don't like to see bullshit, misinformation and personal opinions being passed as facts. Plus there's always a chance that I can keep someone from believing his nonsense.

While I can understand the mentality, at this point, no one needs you to white knight for them. Everyone see him for what he is.

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Yeah, by thread I meant said person since usually all class threads tends to centralize around a singular person eventually.

I just envision the fedora wearing stereotype, looking like his avatar, just hearing the words "new class" or "Tinker" sauntering up with all the cringe and tipping his hat going "m'lady" and then raping everyone's ears with his nonsense. Makes his posts a lot more entertaining than infuriating, as they used to be.

[Ielenia]

And it's all one button instead of dozens of buttons for each different type of totem.

Also: for your tinker, it's two buttons for each type of buff (dropping the turret + using the CD) while with the shaman it's only one button. (dropping the totem)

Also where's the management? You drop Rock-it turret and then you press a cooldown when you need it. It's nowhere near as cumbersome as the totem system was.

It's micro-managing, because instead of having to worry about your totems only once every minute-ish or when having to reposition, with your tinker you have to constantly worry about your totems since they all last such a short time.

Again, you're buffing an already placed turret. Totems required you to find the proper totem at the proper time and place that totem for its maximum effect. In addition, you had to consider if the new totem you were putting down would cancel out a totem buff that you needed at the time. None of that applies to the turret system.

And your turrets would require you to find the proper buff to use while at the same time making sure that:
• you have a turret up;
• your turret is close to your intended target;
• your turret has enough time left to make good use of the buff.

Otherwise you'll have to waste a global cooldown to drop another turret before you can cast the buff CD. Presuming dropping the turret doesn't have a cast time, of course.

And this is the standard go-to when your argument fails; Either the new ability is just like everything else or it's overpowered because it's different.

Except it's not "overpowered because it's different". It's overpowered because it is overpowered. That's like someone creating a fan class concept with a healer ability that shields the target, heals the target, reduces damage on the target and buffs target's damage. And also heals yourself if you talent into it. Because you're basically saying "shamans have to choose which totem ability to use. My turrets can do EVERYTHING AT THE SAME TIME!!"

No you wouldn't because in a turret system (if it had a taunt and an anti-fear) you wouldn't have lost the turret that was taunting the Demon off of you in order to stop the fear.

Read above. You literally just proved my point.

Did you completely skip over the spoiler picture?

Nope. I addressed them all.

BTW, with that Raid boss announcement Dark Rangers are toast as well.

And nope, too. Again zero out of two.

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While I can understand the mentality, at this point, no one needs you to white knight for them. Everyone see him for what he is.

Well, bad arguments need to be combated, and shown the folly of their bogus logic, because there's always people that will believe them at face value. It's not about "white knighting" and more like trying to avoid the spread of bullshit.

[Teriz]

Also: for your tinker, it's two buttons for each type of buff (dropping the turret + using the CD) while with the shaman it's only one button. (dropping the totem)

Uh no, it's one button. The primary purpose of your turret is to shoot an enemy target, unlike totems whose primary purpose was to provide a specific buff at a specific time. Your turrets don't vanish when you apply an upgrade to them.

In the totem system each totem offered a different buff, so you have to place them properly. Again, if you need two buffs and they happened to be in the same element, you would lose one of the buffs. For example, if you had WF totem up but you had to deal with a powerful incoming spell, you would have to drop WF to summon a Grounding Totem. Like I said, that's not an issue with turrets.

It's micro-managing, because instead of having to worry about your totems only once every minute-ish or when having to reposition, with your tinker you have to constantly worry about your totems since they all last such a short time.

Again, no it isn't. I've demonstrated why that isn't the case multiple times. At this point you're willfully ignoring the differences.

And your turrets would require you to find the proper buff to use while at the same time making sure that:
• you have a turret up;
• your turret is close to your intended target;
• your turret has enough time left to make good use of the buff.

How exactly would a Tinker mess up with say, Self Destruct? Even if they don't hit the target with the AoE, they can still collect the guaranteed resource. How would a Tinker mess up with Engine Gunk upgrade? At some point they're going to slow a target, which why you used the CD in the first place. Howabout Superior Schematics? If you're utilizing the cooldown you know its going to hit a group of targets.

This isn't a situation where you're sacrificing one buff for another, or dropping a totem hoping for a one-off effect and having a high chance of whiffing. All of the turret upgrades are have enough broad application that they won't be wasted unless you simply don't know what you're doing.

Otherwise you'll have to waste a global cooldown to drop another turret before you can cast the buff CD. Presuming dropping the turret doesn't have a cast time, of course.

Why would you need to drop another turret? The turret has a 25 (up to possible 35) yd firing range.

Except it's not "overpowered because it's different". It's overpowered because it is overpowered. That's like someone creating a fan class concept with a healer ability that shields the target, heals the target, reduces damage on the target and buffs target's damage. And also heals yourself if you talent into it. Because you're basically saying "shamans have to choose which totem ability to use. My turrets can do EVERYTHING AT THE SAME TIME!!"

So shielding abilities are OP now? Also who said anything about healing?

Yeah you can activate all of the cooldowns at once, and like any other class that blows through their cooldowns at the wrong time you will experience some downsides because of it.

Nope. I addressed them all.

And nope, too. Again zero out of two.

So an expansion featuring a new LK wouldn't be a good thematic fit for a Necromancer class, and a dead Sylvanas bodes well for a future DR class?

Okie dokie.

[Ielenia]

Uh no, it's one button. The primary purpose of your turret is to shoot an enemy target, unlike totems whose primary purpose was to provide a specific buff at a specific time. Your turrets don't vanish when you apply an upgrade to them.

It's still two buttons because those turrets have to be actively placed. If a mob is moved out of range, what does the shaman do? He gets back in range, and uses one GCD to drop the totem. Your tinker would use two GCDs to drop the turret again, and then use the buff ability.

Again, if you need two buffs and they happened to be in the same element, you would lose one of the buffs.

So you choose the best for the situation. It's what managing means.

For example, if you had WF totem up but you had to deal with a powerful incoming spell, you would have to drop WF to summon a Grounding Totem.

Or you could, y'know, either interrupt it yourself or let someone else in the group interrupt it. I mean, it's not like the Grounding Totem is the ONLY ability in the entire game that can deal with single-target spells.

Again, no it isn't. I've demonstrated why that isn't the case multiple times. At this point you're willfully ignoring the differences.

Your differences are either nigh-negligible, or work against your concept. As I pointed out:
• A shaman would only had to worry about their totems once every minute-ish or when there is movement. Your tinker would have to worry about their turrets every 10 seconds.
• A shaman needs only one GCD to drop their special totems. Your tinker would often require two, and that's presuming neither the turret drop ability or the buff ability have cast times.

How exactly would a Tinker mess up with say, Self Destruct? Even if they don't hit the target with the AoE, they can still collect the guaranteed resource.

Congratulations. You just described how to mess up with your tinker. That's like a frost or blood DK summoning their ghoul only to immediately sacrifice it for the exploding damage, while losing on all the melee damage their ghoul could do.

How would a Tinker mess up with Engine Gunk upgrade?

You really need help figuring that out? Ok: here's two ways to mess up that ability: one, the intended targets are moved out of range or out of line of sight of the turret; and two, the turret is about to expire when you cast your spell.

At some point they're going to slow a target, which why you used the CD in the first place.

Not if the mob is out of line of sight, out of range, or if your turret is about to expire.

Howabout Superior Schematics? If you're utilizing the cooldown you know its going to hit a group of targets.

Same as all of the above.

Why would you need to drop another turret? The turret has a 25 (up to possible 35) yd firing range.

I will repeat what someone else said because you missed it (or dishonestly ignored, IMO):

You still fail to address the points raised - are they a major part of the players overall dps? (you have previously said yes) and if yes, what happens when you have spent all this time micromanaging them and "upgrading" them when you are yanked off to a new platform? (Sire Denathrius) Just start ramping up all over again?
What a bout an encounter where you have to swap in and out of different phases? (Garrosh)
What happens when you have to go through a portal to the other side of the room / different platform? (Sire Denathrius)
What happens during a boss encounter in a large room where the boss is moved around a lot? (Kael'thas, Shriekwing and Sludgefist)

Not to mention line of sight issues, like in the Shriekwing and Sludgefist fights.

So shielding abilities are OP now? Also who said anything about healing?

I never said anything about "shielding abilities being OP". I'll repeat what I wrote in case you missed (or dishonestly ignored, IMO):

Because you're basically saying "shamans have to choose which totem ability to use. My turrets can do EVERYTHING AT THE SAME TIME!!"

So an expansion featuring a new LK wouldn't be a good thematic fit for a Necromancer class,

Death knights are not the necromancer class.

and a dead Sylvanas bodes well for a future DR class?

Illidan died at the end of TBC. Remind me: what happened after that?

[Teriz]

It's still two buttons because those turrets have to be actively placed. If a mob is moved out of range, what does the shaman do? He gets back in range, and uses one GCD to drop the totem. Your tinker would use two GCDs to drop the turret again, and then use the buff ability.

Moved out of range of what? 95% of Shaman totems were buffs. You dropped totems as a reaction to a situation, not to attack a mob. The mob never needed to be in range, YOU needed to be in range of the totem. This just shows you have no idea what you're talking about.

So you choose the best for the situation. It's what managing means.

And you would lose the benefit of one for the sake of the other, heavily gimping your performance. Hence why the system was eventually removed, it was grossly unfair to the Shaman class.

Or you could, y'know, either interrupt it yourself or let someone else in the group interrupt it. I mean, it's not like the Grounding Totem is the ONLY ability in the entire game that can deal with single-target spells.

Which is completely irrelevant to the point.

Your differences are either nigh-negligible, or work against your concept. As I pointed out:
• A shaman would only had to worry about their totems once every minute-ish or when there is movement. Your tinker would have to worry about their turrets every 10 seconds.
• A shaman needs only one GCD to drop their special totems. Your tinker would often require two, and that's presuming neither the turret drop ability or the buff ability have cast times.

False on multiple levels. You had to constantly worry about your totems because a different totem was required for a different situation, and rarely did those situations last a minute each. As my example above and my previous example with StoneClaw and Tremor totem pointed out.

Also the turrets last 15 seconds, with passives that extend their duration (if imported over from HotS).

A shaman needed multiple GCDs to drop their totems. For example, if you need Searing totem but you also need damage reduction (Stoneskin), spell boost (Flametongue), and you also needed a slow (Earthbind), that's 4 GCDs. With the turrets it's just 2 GCDs

Congratulations. You just described how to mess up with your tinker. That's like a frost or blood DK summoning their ghoul only to immediately sacrifice it for the exploding damage, while losing on all the melee damage their ghoul could do.

Or you just do what Frost and Blood DKs do and wait for their ghoul to be about to expire and then detonate your turret....

You really need help figuring that out? Ok: here's two ways to mess up that ability: one, the intended targets are moved out of range or out of line of sight of the turret; and two, the turret is about to expire when you cast your spell.

If the targets are moving out of range or the turret is about to expire, why are you activating the CD?

Not if the mob is out of line of sight, out of range, or if your turret is about to expire.

Again, then why would you activate the CD?

I will repeat what someone else said because you missed it (or dishonestly ignored, IMO):

All of that has already been addressed.

Death knights are not the necromancer class.

So Lich Kings aren't thematic with Necromancers?

Illidan died at the end of TBC. Remind me: what happened after that?

Blizzard retconned the entire thing (10 years after the fact). That won't be happening with Sylvanas. She's pretty much hated now.

[Triceron]

So Lich Kings aren't thematic with Necromancers?

Depends on the Lich King.

Looks like we have Anduin as a new Lich King. If the story plays out right, he could lead the Cult of the Damned while Bolvar remains Highlord of the Ebon Hand.

[Teriz]

Depends on the Lich King.

Looks like we have Anduin as a new Lich King. If the story plays out right, he could lead the Cult of the Damned while Bolvar remains Highlord of the Ebon Hand.

I doubt he stays LK by the end of the raid. I'm willing to bet that Sylvanas "sacrifices" herself to free him, and we restore him to normal with him being damaged moving forward.

[Triceron]

BTW, with that Raid boss announcement Dark Rangers are toast as well.

Yeah, pretty much like how Black Temple made Demon Hunters toast, right?

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I doubt he stays LK by the end of the raid. I'm willing to bet that Sylvanas "sacrifices" herself to free him, and we restore him to normal with him being damaged moving forward.

Why would she do that? She wanted this.

Also waste of resources if so. Sylvanas gets defeated this raid, Anduin will be getting a new model that lasts... one Patch tier? Nah, not gonna happen.

[Teriz]

Yeah, pretty much like how Black Temple made Demon Hunters toast, right?

For 10 years, yes. Dark Rangers don't have the pull that Demon Hunters had.

Why would she do that? She wanted this.

Also waste of resources if so. Sylvanas gets defeated this raid, Anduin will be getting a new model that lasts... one Patch tier? Nah, not gonna happen.

They burn through such resources all the time. It definitely won't go past this expansion, and more than likely won't go past this patch. Anduin will be restored rather quickly.

[Triceron]

They burn through such resources all the time. It definitely won't go past this expansion, and more than likely won't go past this patch. Anduin will be restored rather quickly.

Well you can think what you will.

They've already set up Turalyon as future leader of Stormwind and the Alliance, and that will play directly into the Light vs Void conflict to come. Not quite sure what purpose there is in reversing Anduin's condition if so, what you're suggesting seems absolutely anticlimactic and playing on bait-and-switch. All the build up to a new Alliance leadership and changing Anduin to break the cycle, and he gets turned back immediately? Sure, if that makes sense to you.


Either way, Jailer will be defeated by the end of the expansion, and the Cult of the Damned will be freed up to be used however Blizzard wishes. Necromancers still have plenty of potential, it's just up to whether Blizzard wants to enact on it or not.

IMO, they shouldn't, because there's other class concepts that are more relevant to future storylines that would be a better fit. And if they do, then apply them as lore for potential Class Skins, much like adding Highmountain and Nightborne after their stories were resolved.

[Teriz]

Well you can think what you will.

They've already set up Turalyon as future leader of Stormwind and the Alliance, and that will play directly into the Light vs Void conflict to come. Not quite sure what purpose there is in reversing Anduin's condition if so, what you're suggesting seems absolutely anticlimactic and playing on bait-and-switch. All the build up to a new Alliance leadership and changing Anduin to break the cycle, and he gets turned back immediately? Sure, if that makes sense to you.


Either way, Jailer will be defeated by the end of the expansion, and the Cult of the Damned will be freed up to be used however Blizzard wishes. Necromancers still have plenty of potential, it's just up to whether Blizzard wants to enact on it or not.

IMO, they shouldn't, because there's other class concepts that are more relevant to future storylines that would be a better fit. And if they do, then apply them as lore for potential Class Skins, much like adding Highmountain and Nightborne after their stories were resolved.

Oh, I have no doubt that Turalyon will play a huge part moving forward. Perhaps leading to a civil war within the Alliance since Anduin is viewed as "tainted" due to being turned into the LK for a bit, and Turalyon going full zealot. I wouldn't be surprised if that actually takes place in 9.3.

[Ielenia]

Moved out of range of what? 95% of Shaman totems were buffs. You dropped totems as a reaction to a situation, not to attack a mob. The mob never needed to be in range, YOU needed to be in range of the totem. This just shows you have no idea what you're talking about.

You do know that the buff totems also have limited range, and also suffer from line of sight issues, right?

And you would lose the benefit of one for the sake of the other, heavily gimping your performance. Hence why the system was eventually removed, it was grossly unfair to the Shaman class.

Uh, no. That is not the reason. Because a mage using Counterspell is also "gimping their performance" because they have to stop their own casting to do it. So is any character that has to use a stun "gimping their performance" because they're using a GCD. Another example of "gimping their performance" because of their buffs? Any melee or ranged, during the Artificer fight in Castle Nathria, who has to disengage from the boss and go set off the traps that the boss lays, meaning they're not doing damage to the boss.

Which is completely irrelevant to the point.

It's not irrelevant. Why would the shaman have to switch to Grounding Totem every time there's a spell being cast if he can just interrupt the spell with his own interrupt? Grounding totem was a backup, something to be used when fighting a mob group with more than one caster, not the main source of spell interrupt.

False on multiple levels. You had to constantly worry about your totems because a different totem was required for a different situation, and rarely did those situations last a minute each. As my example above and my previous example with StoneClaw and Tremor totem pointed out.

I'm sorry, but unless you're playing in PvP, you're not going to constantly keep switching to different types of totems. You'd stay with the same set through most of the fights, whereas with your tinker you'd have to worry about your turrets every ten seconds. I would say I'm starting to doubt you actually played shaman, but I never believed you in the first place.

Also the turrets last 15 seconds, with passives that extend their duration (if imported over from HotS).

A shaman needed multiple GCDs to drop their totems. For example, if you need Searing totem but you also need damage reduction (Stoneskin), spell boost (Flametongue), and you also needed a slow (Earthbind), that's 4 GCDs. With the turrets it's just 2 GCDs

Four GCDS for the tinker. Two GCDs to drop two turrets, and two GCDs to use the abilities. At the very least, 3 GCDs for the tinker, if you're going for a single turret. However, the tinker's buffs only last for 15 seconds. The shaman's buffs? Searing Totem lass for 30 seconds. Stoneskin totem and flametongue totem both last for two minutes. Earthbind lasts for 45 seconds.

Or you just do what Frost and Blood DKs do and wait for their ghoul to be about to expire and then detonate your turret....

If the targets are moving out of range or the turret is about to expire, why are you activating the CD?

Again, then why would you activate the CD?

The entire point here is talking about ways to mess up the management. The mob was in range when you activated it, then it was moved away from it. Or you didn't notice the turret was about to expire. Or you miscalculated the distance. There's a lot of possible ways to mess up.

All of that has already been addressed.

Except you haven't. At all. You completely skipped that part.

So Lich Kings aren't thematic with Necromancers?

As much as paladins are thematic with priests.

Blizzard retconned the entire thing (10 years after the fact). That won't be happening with Sylvanas. She's pretty much hated now.

Can I have the lotto numbers while you're still at it, predicting the future? Joking aside, you have absolutely no way of knowing that. And "pretty much hated"? You do know that she still has a loyal following, don't you? She's like Garrosh, and if the hints in the pre-expansion cinematic for Revendreth is to be believed, we might still see Garrosh again, in Shadowlands.

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I doubt he stays LK by the end of the raid. I'm willing to bet that Sylvanas "sacrifices" herself to free him, and we restore him to normal with him being damaged moving forward.

And the "damage" he suffers could cut him off from the Light, while he retains his necromantic powers, just like Bolvar. And Bolvar was a paladin, ends up being the leader of the heavy-armored death knights. Anduin, being a priest, ends up being the leader of the light-armored necromancers of the Cult of the Damned.

[Revamp Man]

ok 9.1 doesnt eliminate any class possibilities yet

[Teriz]

You do know that the buff totems also have limited range, and also suffer from line of sight issues, right?

I do, but outside of a couple of the fire totems they weren't dependent on mobs moving in and out of range. They were buffing YOU, or providing YOU a benefit, not attacking a mob.

Uh, no. That is not the reason. Because a mage using Counterspell is also "gimping their performance" because they have to stop their own casting to do it. So is any character that has to use a stun "gimping their performance" because they're using a GCD. Another example of "gimping their performance" because of their buffs? Any melee or ranged, during the Artificer fight in Castle Nathria, who has to disengage from the boss and go set off the traps that the boss lays, meaning they're not doing damage to the boss.

Yeah, Counterspell doesn't cancel Arcane Intellect or Prismatic Barrier. Ice Barrier doesn't cancel Water Elemental. However, that's exactly how the totems worked against each other.

It's not irrelevant. Why would the shaman have to switch to Grounding Totem every time there's a spell being cast if he can just interrupt the spell with his own interrupt? Grounding totem was a backup, something to be used when fighting a mob group with more than one caster, not the main source of spell interrupt.

Again, that's irrelevant. The point is that a Shaman shouldn't lose a buff in order to interrupt a spell. Nor should they be dependent on another class in order to walk and chew gum at the same time.

No other class had that level of handicap. Again, it's like a Mage losing Arcane Intellect to cast spellsteal, and then Arcane Intellect is on a cooldown. It was a highly awkward and cumbersome system.

I'm sorry, but unless you're playing in PvP, you're not going to constantly keep switching to different types of totems. You'd stay with the same set through most of the fights, whereas with your tinker you'd have to worry about your turrets every ten seconds. I would say I'm starting to doubt you actually played shaman, but I never believed you in the first place.

Yeah false again. Even dungeons you would also have to switch constantly in order to provide constant utility to the group. Let's say for example you wanted to buff the tank? Well you could give them Stonekin or Strength of Earth. However, a mob had a fear mechanic, you better put down tremor totem or you'd get kicked for not doing your job. If you needed to peel a mob off of you, but your tank was dependent on your Stoneskin for damage reduction, they would lose that reduction so that you could drop Stoneclaw to taunt a mob off of you. And of course since the group is constantly moving, you're also constantly dropping totems.

And yeah, that's just the Earth totems.....

Four GCDS for the tinker. Two GCDs to drop two turrets, and two GCDs to use the abilities. At the very least, 3 GCDs for the tinker, if you're going for a single turret. However, the tinker's buffs only last for 15 seconds. The shaman's buffs? Searing Totem lass for 30 seconds. Stoneskin totem and flametongue totem both last for two minutes. Earthbind lasts for 45 seconds.

You only need one turret to get the upgrades and the buffs, and once again HotS has passive abilities that extend the duration of turrets, so that 15 second duration isn't always accurate.

The entire point here is talking about ways to mess up the management. The mob was in range when you activated it, then it was moved away from it. Or you didn't notice the turret was about to expire. Or you miscalculated the distance. There's a lot of possible ways to mess up.

Sounds like an issue of the player that needs to time their CDs better.

Except you haven't. At all. You completely skipped that part.

If you say so.

As much as paladins are thematic with priests.

I'm unaware of Priests who are enslaved to Paladins the way scourge Necromancers are enslaved to the Lich King, but okay.

Can I have the lotto numbers while you're still at it, predicting the future? Joking aside, you have absolutely no way of knowing that. And "pretty much hated"? You do know that she still has a loyal following, don't you? She's like Garrosh, and if the hints in the pre-expansion cinematic for Revendreth is to be believed, we might still see Garrosh again, in Shadowlands.

So you think that after all of this, Sylvanas is going to survive all this, end up back on Azeroth, join up with the Forsaken once again and lead her Dark Rangers as if BFA and this never happened?

Not a chance.

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ok 9.1 doesnt eliminate any class possibilities yet

No, but 9.0 did....

[Ielenia]

I do, but outside of a couple of the fire totems they weren't dependent on mobs moving in and out of range. They were buffing YOU, or providing YOU a benefit, not attacking a mob.

Allies or enemies, doesn't matter. They're still dependent on their intended targets being in range. And guess what: if the tank is moving the boss away from your attack totems, it means the DPS is also moving with the boss, meaning that your allies are also moving away from your buff tottems.

Yeah, Counterspell doesn't cancel Arcane Intellect or Prismatic Barrier. Ice Barrier doesn't cancel Water Elemental. However, that's exactly how the totems worked against each other.

Your exact words were "heavily gimping your performance". And you're wrong in all accounts because after the special totem is used, the shaman can drop the buff totem again. And like I said earlier: any player who has to disengage from the boss to deal with a boss mechanic (for example: the traps in the Artificer fight) are also "heavily gimping their performance". And also, allow me to let you in a little secret: "performance" is not simply topping the damage meters. Ask about any raid leader worth their salt and they'll tell you that they'll much rather take someone who knows how to do the boss mechanics than one that worries only about topping the damage meters.

Again, that's irrelevant. The point is that a Shaman shouldn't lose a buff in order to interrupt a spell. Nor should they be dependent on another class in order to walk and chew gum at the same time.

No other class had that level of handicap. Again, it's like a Mage losing Arcane Intellect to cast spellsteal, and then Arcane Intellect is on a cooldown. It was a highly awkward and cumbersome system.

They don't. Their interrupt spell does not remove buffs from themselves. The fact you don't seem to know that shamans have an interrupt spell further reinforces the idea that the closest you've ever been to actually playing a shaman was glancing at WoWHead's ability list for the shaman.

Yeah false again. Even dungeons you would also have to switch constantly in order to provide constant utility to the group. Let's say for example you wanted to buff the tank? Well you could give them Stonekin or Strength of Earth. However, a mob had a fear mechanic, you better put down tremor totem or you'd get kicked for not doing your job.

Okay. You're just making up bullshit, now. Every melee class and the majority of ranged classes have an interrupt ability. The shaman is not the only class in the entire game with an interrupt ability.

If you needed to peel a mob off of you, but your tank was dependent on your Stoneskin for damage reduction, they would lose that reduction so that you could drop Stoneclaw to taunt a mob off of you.

First: if you managed to pull a mob off your tank, then your tank is terrible. Second: first comment on the Stoneclaw Totem page: "Worthy of note: This totem is only effective when pulling mobs or when another mob attacks you in the middle of combat. While it will grab the attention of fresh mobs, this totem will not be able to taunt them off of you if you've established significant threat with the mobs."

And of course since the group is constantly moving, you're also constantly dropping totems.

And the tinker would be constantly be dropping turrets regardless if the group is moving or not since they only last 15 seconds.

And yeah, that's just the Earth totems.....

If you actually played a shaman (which I still doubt, mind you) the way you're describing above, I would not be surprised at all if they kicked you out, considering all you mentioned above is incorrect.

You only need one turret to get the upgrades and the buffs,

So one GCD for one turret, and one GCD for every buff. So:
• One buff: 1 GCD for shaman, 2 for tinker
• Two buffs: 2 GCD for shaman, 3 for tinker
• Three buffs: 3 GCD for shaman, 4 for tinker

Seems to me the shaman wins out.

Sounds like an issue of the player that needs to time their CDs better.

Your whole line of questioning was "how could someone mess up", and I've explained to you how they could mess it up.

If you say so.

It's a fact. To the point that I had to repeat several times what I wrote but you kept ignoring it.

I'm unaware of Priests who are enslaved to Paladins the way scourge Necromancers are enslaved to the Lich King, but okay.

Excuse me? Where does it say that necromancers are "enslaved to the Lich King"? Necromancers do what they do out of free will. It's the death knights that were enslaved to the Lich King.

So you think that after all of this, Sylvanas is going to survive all this, end up back on Azeroth, join up with the Forsaken once again and lead her Dark Rangers as if BFA and this never happened?

• I never said Sylvanas is going to survive.
• I never said Sylvanas will return to Azeroth.
• I never said Sylvanas will join the Forsaken again.
• I never said Sylvanas will lead the Dark Ranger.

Zero out of four. Seems to be a pattern for you. Try again. I simply said that even if she dies, she could be brought back in the future. Like Illidan.

No, but 9.0 did....

Also a big fat "nope". Zero out of five.

[Teriz]

Allies or enemies, doesn't matter. They're still dependent on their intended targets being in range. And guess what: if the tank is moving the boss away from your attack totems, it means the DPS is also moving with the boss, meaning that your allies are also moving away from your buff tottems.

It doesn't matter? You can't be serious.

You can communicate with your allies and coordinate their movements. You can't do that with mobs.

Your exact words were "heavily gimping your performance". And you're wrong in all accounts because after the special totem is used, the shaman can drop the buff totem again. And like I said earlier: any player who has to disengage from the boss to deal with a boss mechanic (for example: the traps in the Artificer fight) are also "heavily gimping their performance". And also, allow me to let you in a little secret: "performance" is not simply topping the damage meters. Ask about any raid leader worth their salt and they'll tell you that they'll much rather take someone who knows how to do the boss mechanics than one that worries only about topping the damage meters.

And yet amazingly Shaman were on the bottom of PvE and PvP for years because the constant totem switching damaged their performance. So much so that Blizzard had to come up with tools like Totemic Projection and Totemic Persistence in order to bypass the constraints that were inherent in the system. In the end they simply revamped the system entirely. Of course none of that matters because you would know better than Blizzard right?

They don't. Their interrupt spell does not remove buffs from themselves. The fact you don't seem to know that shamans have an interrupt spell further reinforces the idea that the closest you've ever been to actually playing a shaman was glancing at WoWHead's ability list for the shaman.

Except I was talking about Grounding Totem which is an air totem, thus would cancel Windfury or Grace of Air totems when you used it.

Okay. You're just making up bullshit, now. Every melee class and the majority of ranged classes have an interrupt ability. The shaman is not the only class in the entire game with an interrupt ability.

...........

You can't stop the effects of mass fear with an interrupt, but you could stop it with Tremor Totem.

First: if you managed to pull a mob off your tank, then your tank is terrible. Second: first comment on the Stoneclaw Totem page: "Worthy of note: This totem is only effective when pulling mobs or when another mob attacks you in the middle of combat. While it will grab the attention of fresh mobs, this totem will not be able to taunt them off of you if you've established significant threat with the mobs."

And I'm talking about when another mob attacks you in the middle of combat....

Maybe in your version of WoW every tank does their job perfectly, but in real WoW people make mistakes, and sometimes mobs sneak in outside of the tanks pull. Stoneclaw saved me many times because of that alone.

And the tinker would be constantly be dropping turrets regardless if the group is moving or not since they only last 15 seconds.

Except for the duration extenders present in HotS passives which could very well find their way into WoW.

If you actually played a shaman (which I still doubt, mind you) the way you're describing above, I would not be surprised at all if they kicked you out, considering all you mentioned above is incorrect.

Only incorrect in your mind because you have no clue what you're talking about.

So one GCD for one turret, and one GCD for every buff. So:
• One buff: 1 GCD for shaman, 2 for tinker
• Two buffs: 2 GCD for shaman, 3 for tinker
• Three buffs: 3 GCD for shaman, 4 for tinker

Seems to me the shaman wins out.

Uh no. The Turret also has passive buffs which would more than likely come from talents. For example, the HotS passive talent Overcharged Capacitors gives the Tinker 5% spell damage for each turret active, up to 15%. That buff would be present every time you drop a turret, so it wouldn't require an additional GCD. In addition, the passive also increases the duration of your turrets when you deal basic attack damage.

Your whole line of questioning was "how could someone mess up", and I've explained to you how they could mess it up.

Yes, mess up in such ludicrous fashion that the only answer would be to "get better".

As for Necromancers and Dark Rangers, your answers are nothing more than your typical denial.

[Amunrasonther]

And the "damage" he suffers could cut him off from the Light, while he retains his necromantic powers, just like Bolvar. And Bolvar was a paladin, ends up being the leader of the heavy-armored death knights. Anduin, being a priest, ends up being the leader of the light-armored necromancers of the Cult of the Damned.

This sounds very feasible in my opinion. Through Sylvanas, it was always an easier task to justify why Necromancers would join the Horde, and more so difficult for the Alliance. Now that we've learned from Shadowlands and Maldraxxus that the source of necromancy and necromancers themselves can be a force for good, if Anduin retains some necromantic powers (plus the fact that he's a priest), it makes it easier for the Alliance to have a necromancer connection. Not to mention, we still haven't seen the consequences of our time in Shadowlands on Azeroth. I believe our time away has caused a severe imbalance in the forces of life and death and we could see a Cataclysm level of change in our present time.

[Ielenia]

It doesn't matter? You can't be serious.

You can communicate with your allies and coordinate their movements. You can't do that with mobs.

Oh, right. "Hey, tank? Bring the boss right onto the ranged group where my totems are! What? The boss has cleave mechanics that might one-shot us? Fuck that, being in range of my totems is more important!" That would go so well, indeed.

Yes, I'm serious. Because that's the whole point here: targets staying within range of the totems/turrets.

And yet amazingly Shaman were on the bottom of PvE and PvP for years because the constant totem switching damaged their performance.

And still remained mid- to bottom-tier even during and after Legion?

Except I was talking about Grounding Totem which is an air totem, thus would cancel Windfury or Grace of Air totems when you used it.

And I keep pointing out you would not need to drop Grounding Totem whatsoever unless there's a dire emergency because not only shamans have an interrupt spell, but also so does the tank and likely all the other DPS.

...........

You can't stop the effects of mass fear with an interrupt, but you could stop it with Tremor Totem.

I can if it's an interrupt-able spell. And also, let me remind you, that dropping Tremor Totem is not "severely gimping your performance". It's actually greatly improving your performance because now, instead of running around like a headless chicken in fear, you're immediately back to DPS'ing/healing thanks to your totem.

Keep talking, Teriz. The more you talk, the more you prove that you never played shaman in the first place.

And I'm talking about when another mob attacks you in the middle of combat....

That wasn't what you said:

If you needed to peel a mob off of you, but your tank was dependent on your Stoneskin for damage reduction, they would lose that reduction so that you could drop Stoneclaw to taunt a mob off of you.

You specifically mentioned the tank, meaning you were in a group. If you are pulling mobs the tank did not pull, then regardless of what totem you use, you're already gimping your performance because you're showing that either: a) you don't know how to play shaman; or b) you don't know how to play in groups. You don't pull mobs. The tank does, unless they ask you to.

Maybe in your version of WoW every tank does their job perfectly, but in real WoW people make mistakes, and sometimes mobs sneak in outside of the tanks pull. Stoneclaw saved me many times because of that alone.

Bullshit. Stoneclaw would not have saved you in dungeon/raid content.

Only incorrect in your mind because you have no clue what you're talking about.

The real world disagrees with you. The more you talk about how shamans play, the more you show how you never played a shaman, much less in group content.

Uh no. The Turret also has passive buffs which would more than likely come from talents. For example, the HotS passive talent Overcharged Capacitors gives the Tinker 5% spell damage for each turret active, up to 15%.

And now you're moving the goalposts by claiming the buffs are passive, when you specifically mentioned they being cooldowns:

In the turret system, you would have active cooldowns that increase the power and ability of your turret.

Yeah you can activate all of the cooldowns at once, and like any other class that blows through their cooldowns at the wrong time you will experience some downsides because of it.

You can receive all those enhancements at the same time, if you want to blow through your cooldowns.
All of your turrets receive those buffs when you trigger them.

Yes, mess up in such ludicrous fashion that the only answer would be to "get better".

Irrelevant. You asked a question, and I answered it.

As for Necromancers and Dark Rangers, your answers are nothing more than your typical denial.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. My name is not "Teriz". You're the only one here who is being dishonest, using double-standards, denial, moving the goalposts, stating opinions as fact, etc.

[Revamp Man]

No, but 9.0 did....

thank you Ion
i will take that into account

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, right. "Hey, tank? Bring the boss right onto the ranged group where my totems are! What? The boss has cleave mechanics that might one-shot us? Fuck that, being in range of my totems is more important!" That would go so well, indeed.

Yes, I'm serious. Because that's the whole point here: targets staying within range of the totems/turrets.


And still remained mid- to bottom-tier even during and after Legion?


And I keep pointing out you would not need to drop Grounding Totem whatsoever unless there's a dire emergency because not only shamans have an interrupt spell, but also so does the tank and likely all the other DPS.


I can if it's an interrupt-able spell. And also, let me remind you, that dropping Tremor Totem is not "severely gimping your performance". It's actually greatly improving your performance because now, instead of running around like a headless chicken in fear, you're immediately back to DPS'ing/healing thanks to your totem.

Keep talking, Teriz. The more you talk, the more you prove that you never played shaman in the first place.


That wasn't what you said:
You specifically mentioned the tank, meaning you were in a group. If you are pulling mobs the tank did not pull, then regardless of what totem you use, you're already gimping your performance because you're showing that either: a) you don't know how to play shaman; or b) you don't know how to play in groups. You don't pull mobs. The tank does, unless they ask you to.


Bullshit. Stoneclaw would not have saved you in dungeon/raid content.


The real world disagrees with you. The more you talk about how shamans play, the more you show how you never played a shaman, much less in group content.


And now you're moving the goalposts by claiming the buffs are passive, when you specifically mentioned they being cooldowns:






Irrelevant. You asked a question, and I answered it.


I'm sorry, but you're wrong. My name is not "Teriz". You're the only one here who is being dishonest, using double-standards, denial, moving the goalposts, stating opinions as fact, etc.

im still waiting for him to explain the whole
UH dk can be a ranged spec and is the only melee that could be turned ranged
even though he was shown havoc has a majority of its abilities as ranged