1. #5041
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    There’s no difference between a spell with a cast time and an instant spell.
    Yet there is difference between an ability with an infinite timer (i.e. permanent) and one with a limited timer. The dishonesty never ends.

    But by all means, name a Necromancer spell that would be out of place in the DK class.
    Why don't you name a frost death knight spell that would be out place in the mage class, and vice-versa?
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  2. #5042
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    There’s no difference between a spell with a cast time and an instant spell. Just look at Chain Lightning in Elemental Shaman vs Chain Lightning in Enhanement Shaman under the effects of Maelstrom Weapon. No difference outside the cast time.
    There's plenty of difference. It plays into their use as rotational abilities and as procs. That one gets to become instant through a proc doesn't mean it is the same spell as how a spellcaster uses them. Procs that use existing Spellcasting abilities from other specs makes sense. Adding a new Spellcasting ability for the sole purpose of making an instant or proc for a melee class when they already have their own ranged abilities doesn't make sense.

    As I said, a Paladin tank and DPS specs still have access to their Holy healing abilities, and can even potentially proc a free-instant cast. This doesn't make them healers or prime them to incorporate more types of Healing abilities into the Tanking spec.

    A Paladin would never get a holy ability like Beacon of Light usable in Tank or DPS spec. Same reasoning applies to the DK if you're trying to appropriate a Necromancer's healing or spellcasting ability as a potential new spell or ability. And some of them, like the Skeletal Mage form, simply wouldn't work with the DK's theme since as you said they're already undead and don't need a Spellcaster form. It doesn't fit at all into their design, whereas an ability like that fits perfectly for a Necromancer since it is already a Necromantic Spellcaster ability.

    There's no place for Primordial Wave in the DK's kit. There's a place for it in a Necromancer class though.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-02-19 at 08:47 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  3. #5043
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Yet somehow you refuse to use this same logic when people compare your tinker ideas to already existing engineering items. The classic Teriz double standard.
    Because items are fundamentally different than abilities, and a profession can’t take the place or function of a class.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    There's plenty of difference. It plays into their use as rotational abilities and as procs. That one gets to become instant through a proc doesn't mean it is the same spell as how a spellcaster uses them. Procs that use existing Spellcasting abilities from other specs makes sense. Adding a new Spellcasting ability for the sole purpose of making an instant or proc for a melee class when they already have their own ranged abilities doesn't make sense.

    As I said, a Paladin tank and DPS specs still have access to their Holy healing abilities, and can even potentially proc a free-instant cast. This doesn't make them healers or prime them to incorporate more types of Healing abilities into the Tanking spec.

    A Paladin would never get a holy ability like Beacon of Light usable in Tank or DPS spec. Same reasoning applies to the DK if you're trying to appropriate a Necromancer's healing or spellcasting ability as a potential new spell or ability. And some of them, like the Skeletal Mage form, simply wouldn't work with the DK's theme since as you said they're already undead and don't need a Spellcaster form. It doesn't fit at all into their design, whereas an ability like that fits perfectly for a Necromancer since it is already a Necromantic Spellcaster ability.
    Beyond cosmetics, what’s the difference between a DK under Lichborne casting Howling Blast or Death Coil?

    There's no place for Primordial Wave in the DK's kit. There's a place for it in a Necromancer class though.
    An ability that damages an enemy but heals an ally? What’s the difference between that and Death Coil?

  4. #5044
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Beyond cosmetics, what’s the difference between a DK under Lichborne casting Howling Blast or Death Coil?
    1. Lichborne is not a transformation ability, it does not change the Death Knight's form whatsever and can't be compared to Deathborne which actually transforms the caster into a skeletal mage, even if Lichborne was a transformation ability it would not be a Skeletal mage transformation since that does not fit the Death Knight class whatsoever.
    2. Death Coil and Howling Blast are not in anyway comparable to the abilities that spellcasting classes recieve unlike for instance smite or shadow bolt that are mostly filler/resource builders, Death Coil and Howling blast have a substantial resource cost either in Runes or Runic Power and no cast time meaning they lend themselves to a completely different feeling during gameplay (for instance they can't be spammed, can be used while moving and require resources or a proc to use)

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    An ability that damages an enemy but heals an ally? What’s the difference between that and Death Coil?
    Here is what Primoridial Wave does: "Blast your target with a Primordial Wave, dealing (65% of Spell power) Shadow damage and apply Flame Shock to an enemy, or heal an ally for (65% of Spell power) and apply Riptide to them (if restoration)

    Your next Lava Surge/Lightning Bolt (Healing Wave) will also hit all targets affected by your Flame Shock (Riptide) for 80%/100% (60%) of normal damage (Healing)

    How is that comparable to Death Coil which does: "Fires a blast of unholy energy at the target, causing (50.3% of Attack power) Shadow damage to an enemy or healing an Undead ally for (265% of Attack power) health. Reduces the cooldown of Dark Transformation by 1 sec"

    Death Coil does not
    1. Apply any sort of DoT or HoT to the target
    2. Only heals undead allies (meaning it can only be used on a summoned ghoul or a Death Knight under the effects of Lichborne)
    3. Does not replicate the next ability used on any targets affected by a DoT or HoT

    Death Knight do not use Death Coil as a healing ability, its resource cost and uses as a self heal is too situational (10s of Lichborne) and Death Knights already have Death Strike for self healing, meaning it's only use is healing the pet ghoul which isn't going to be something a DK will care about because A: the ghoul is on barely a cooldown B: the ghoul isn't supposed to take aggro so it's not going to be taking the brunt of any damage especially in dungeons or raids.
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2021-02-19 at 09:40 PM.

  5. #5045
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Beyond cosmetics, what’s the difference between a DK under Lichborne casting Howling Blast or Death Coil?
    You don't know the difference between Melee and Ranged Spell DPS gameplay?

    I mean, you can just play a Mage/Priest/Warlock and a DK and find out the differences. They play completely differently.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  6. #5046
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    1. Lichborne is not a transformation ability, it does not change the Death Knight's form whatsever and can't be compared to Deathborne which actually transforms the caster into a skeletal mage, even if Lichborne was a transformation ability it would not be a Skeletal mage transformation since that does not fit the Death Knight class whatsoever.
    2. Death Coil and Howling Blast are not in anyway comparable to the abilities that spellcasting classes recieve unlike for instance smite or shadow bolt that are mostly filler/resource builders, Death Coil and Howling blast have a substantial resource cost either in Runes or Runic Power and no cast time meaning they lend themselves to a completely different feeling during gameplay (for instance they can't be spammed, can be used while moving and require resources or a proc to use)
    Lichborne transforms the DK into an undead. A Mage transforming into a skeleton would also be transforming into an undead form. Again, beyond cosmetics what's the difference?

    Howling Blast and Death Coil are both magical spells. So again, a DK under the effects of Lichborne is an undead casting spells, and a Mage in skeletal form is an undead casting spells. Beyond cosmetics, it's the same thing.



    Here is what Primoridial Wave does: "Blast your target with a Primordial Wave, dealing (65% of Spell power) Shadow damage and apply Flame Shock to an enemy, or heal an ally for (65% of Spell power) and apply Riptide to them (if restoration)

    Your next Lava Surge/Lightning Bolt (Healing Wave) will also hit all targets affected by your Flame Shock (Riptide) for 80%/100% (60%) of normal damage (Healing)

    How is that comparable to Death Coil which does: "Fires a blast of unholy energy at the target, causing (50.3% of Attack power) Shadow damage to an enemy or healing an Undead ally for (265% of Attack power) health. Reduces the cooldown of Dark Transformation by 1 sec"

    Death Coil does not
    1. Apply any sort of DoT or HoT to the target
    2. Only heals undead allies (meaning it can only be used on a summoned ghoul or a Death Knight under the effects of Lichborne)
    3. Does not replicate the next ability used on any targets affected by a DoT or HoT

    Death Knight do not use Death Coil as a healing ability, its resource cost and uses as a self heal is too situational (10s of Lichborne) and Death Knights already have Death Strike for self healing, meaning it's only use is healing the pet ghoul which isn't going to be something a DK will care about because A: the ghoul is on barely a cooldown B: the ghoul isn't supposed to take aggro so it's not going to be taking the brunt of any damage especially in dungeons or raids.
    Because both are simply abilities that either damage an enemy or heal an ally. For all intents and purposes they're the same concept.

    As for not using DC as a healing ability, you would be wrong. I use DC quite a bit to heal my pets or heal myself if I'm under the effect of Lichborne. It's very helpful.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    You don't know the difference between Melee and Ranged Spell DPS gameplay?

    I mean, you can just play a Mage/Priest/Warlock and a DK and find out the differences. They play completely differently.
    That's a rather meaningless distinction in this case. I'm talking about individual abilities. If you're saying that the ability to turn undead and cast spells, or having a spell that damages an enemy yet heals an ally is outside of the scope of the DK's abilities, you're quite mistaken.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-02-19 at 09:48 PM.

  7. #5047
    Quote Originally Posted by Letdown View Post
    I know I will forever be in an extreme minority here, but I would really love to see a dedicated buffer/debuffer class. I'm going to say "Bard," but the traditional "Bard" theme/fantasy isn't really what I care about, it's the gameplay traditionally attached to it that I'm after. I don't really care about the wrapper on it, but I think we're at a point that adding that role in wouldn't overly scuff the game, as we more-or-less have it in the game already distributed across the 12 classes, which makes building raid compositions miserable.

    -Have to bring at least 1 warrior for rally/battle cry
    -Have to bring at least 1 DH for Chaos Brand
    -Have to bring at least 1 monk for Mystic Touch
    -Have to bring at least 1 Priest for Fort + PI
    -Have to bring at least 1 mage for Int
    -Have to bring at least 1 lock for Rocks
    -Have to bring at least 1 druid for roar
    -Have to bring at least 1 paladin for Devo
    -Have to bring at least 1 DK for AMZ
    -Have to bring rsham for slink if it's ever good (APT for prog comes up as well); if Arms warrior is good, Enh becomes necessary for Windfury

    So basically, you have at least 11 locked slots for raid -- this gets even messier considering some of these things (such as AMZ) have value for bringing multiple, which then crowds out already competitive slots. Factor in fight specific utility (specific damage profiles, immunities, etc.), "bring the player" is all but dead (Yes I get this is irrelevant for people that don't mythic raid and/or prog much later in the tier).

    My point is if they're already willing to lock that many slots, just give us Bard. Parsing means nothing already because of PI, it'll mean even more nothing in 9.0.5 when you then have to factor in Night Fae priests keeping Mages at 30s combusts, etc. Just rip the bandaid off, it'd offer them more design space for the classes and then give them more room to overhaul specs and what not in the future, including 4th specs and fixing Survival.
    That's a good point. Bards could serve as a kind of wildcard class that could fill in the missing buff for a class. That way, those classes wouldn't be mandatory, because you could have the wildcard take on any missing role. Different songs, different buffs or debuffs (probably not all at once though, has to choose ones). They would, of course, also need to have some damage and heal abilities to fully flesh out the class.

  8. #5048
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Lichborne transforms the DK into an undead. A Mage transforming into a skeleton would also be transforming into an undead form. Again, beyond cosmetics what's the difference?

    Howling Blast and Death Coil are both magical spells. So again, a DK under the effects of Lichborne is an undead casting spells, and a Mage in skeletal form is an undead casting spells. Beyond cosmetics, it's the same thing.
    Lichborne: "Draw upon unholy energy to increase Leech by 10%, and make you immune to Charm, Fear, and Sleep for 10 sec."

    Deathborne "Transform into a powerful skeletal mage for 20 sec. While in the form of a skeletal mage, your Frostbolt, Fireball, and Arcane Blast hit up to 2 enemies near your target and your spell damage is increased by 10%"

    Death Knights are already undead, why would they have an undead transformation ability, all it's description says is "drawing on unholy energy" Death Knights are already undead the LICH king was responsible for their dark REBIRTH they are created by the lich king in other words they are Lich-Born

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Because both are simply abilities that either damage an enemy or heal an ally. For all intents and purposes they're the same concept.
    Death Coil does not replicate abilities used on the target, they serve a completely different function, Primordial Wave facilitates AOE healing/damage using normally single target abilities such as healing wave, lightning bolt, lava surge. Death Coil is a single target resource spender

    Once again you're being as reductive as possible in order to make a concept you personally don't like seem as unviable as possible, which is hilarious given others can be just as reductive as possible and say your entire "Turret system" is a upgradable searing totem.
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2021-02-19 at 09:56 PM.

  9. #5049
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    That's a rather meaningless distinction in this case. I'm talking about individual abilities. If you're saying that the ability to turn undead and cast spells, or having a spell that damages an enemy yet heals an ally is outside of the scope of the DK's abilities, you're quite mistaken.
    Could a DK get these abilities? Sure. But so could a Mage, a Warlock or a Priest, and they have them too. Blizzard doesn't see any ability in the game as being exclusive, that is why Warlocks had Death Coil and Metamorphosis and why Mages have Frost Nova and Frost Armor and why Priests had Mana Burn and Ressurection. These are just abilities, anyone can be given anything and there's nothing 'class specific' about them.

    If we're talking 'Necromancer abilities' as in abilities that suit a Necromantic Spellcaster class, then we're talking about different mechanics from a Death Knight who is solely designed for melee gameplay.

    If you're not talking about mechanics and only talking about individual abilities, then what is the point? We already know that any class can be given any abilities. That's why Mages have a spell that turns them into a Skeletal Mage right now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  10. #5050
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    Lichborne: "Draw upon unholy energy to increase Leech by 10%, and make you immune to Charm, Fear, and Sleep for 10 sec."

    Deathborne "Transform into a powerful skeletal mage for 20 sec. While in the form of a skeletal mage, your Frostbolt, Fireball, and Arcane Blast hit up to 2 enemies near your target and your spell damage is increased by 10%"

    Death Knights are already undead, why would they have an undead transformation ability, all it's description says is "drawing on unholy energy" Death Knights are already undead the LICH king was responsible for their dark REBIRTH they are born of the lich kings will meaning they are Lich-Born

    Did you purposely omit the entire tooltip of the spell?

    Lichborne
    Instant 2 min cooldown
    Requires Death Knight
    Requires level 33
    Draw upon unholy energy to become Undead for 10 sec, increasing Leech by 10%, and making you immune to Charm, Fear, and Sleep.
    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=49039/lichborne

    The tooltip says they become undead.

    Death Coil does not replicate abilities used on the target, they serve a completely different function, Primordial Wave facilitates AOE healing/damage using normally single target abilities such as healing wave, lightning bolt, lava surge.

    Once again you're being as reductive as possible in order to make a concept you personally don't like seem as unviable as possible, which is hilarious given others can be just as reductive as possible and say your entire "Turret system" is a upgradable searing totem.
    I'm not being reductive at all. The main aspect of Primordial Wave is this;

    Blast your target with a Primordial Wave, dealing Shadow damage to an enemy, or heal an ally
    That's all there really is to the spell. The rest of it is Shaman-specific stuff. The core of the spell is using one spell to either deal damage to enemies or healing allies. It's the same concept as Death Coil.

    I didn't make the Necromancer class unviable, Blizzard did.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Could a DK get these abilities? Sure. But so could a Mage, a Warlock or a Priest, and they have them too. Blizzard doesn't see any ability in the game as being exclusive, that is why Warlocks had Death Coil and Metamorphosis and why Mages have Frost Nova and Frost Armor and why Priests had Mana Burn and Ressurection. These are just abilities, anyone can be given anything and there's nothing 'class specific' about them.
    If you're saying that Mages will get the ability to turn into Skeletal mages after Shadowlands is over, you're sadly mistaken. The only reason Mages have that ability is because we're in a Necromancy/Death-themed expansion. If the next expansion is Dragons, Mages aren't going to have the ability to turn into skeletal Mages.

    If we're talking 'Necromancer abilities' as in abilities that suit a Necromantic Spellcaster class, then we're talking about different mechanics from a Death Knight who is solely designed for melee gameplay.

    If you're not talking about mechanics and only talking about individual abilities, then what is the point? We already know that any class can be given any abilities. That's why Mages have a spell that turns them into a Skeletal Mage right now.
    We're talking about Necromancer abilities that use Necromancy. Again, the issue is that the DK class can absorb any ability thought up for a Necromancer class, yes even abilities designed for a caster since the DK also utilizes ranged magical spells. This is by design, so you attempting to create a distinction between melee and caster mechanics when we're dealing with a class that utilizes both is a bit silly.

    And no, EVERY class cannot be given any Necromancer ability. The only class that can is the DK class because it is so thematically similar to the Necromancer.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-02-19 at 10:09 PM.

  11. #5051
    Why are people so hung up upon "it allready exists ingame"?

    Call it by a different name, new animation and bam. New ability never seen before.

    Shaman and mages are not really different. And for that matter neither are destruction warlocks or moonkins.
    Shadow priests, warlocks, and again moonkins...

    Healers are the once who actually have different playstyles and mechanics. Druid vs Disc vs monk. And even they have similiarities.

    Necromancer would just fit 1000% better into wow.
    Granted tinker would be somthing new. But i just don't think it really fits. This whole part of wow was always more of a sidestory and comic relief than anything serious.

    If you REALLY open that dore by making it a player class you also actually have to move wow into the future via industialisation and whatnot. Not just slap a class into it that for some reason can do stuff that will not be used widley (like evry other class in wow) in te universe. And no it is not used that way right now.

    Except for the faction leader fo gnomes an goblins noone is proficient enough to use it reliably. Make it widley used and i would be fine with it. But then open it up to ALL classes. Because there is no genetic barrier keeping them from it. It is just tech. Give everyone guns. Make magic obsolete. Let me shoot rejuvenations with a gun! Becuase that is the endgoal at a certian point of you give magic users tech.

    Machine gun healing and killing spells.

    Edit: i am a bit drunk an just like to pop into this thread then and now... because it is the new high elv thread... so much fun^^

  12. #5052
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Did you purposely omit the entire tooltip of the spell?

    https://www.wowhead.com/spell=49039/lichborne

    The tooltip says they become undead.
    Version of the spell i was looking at was a older version that didn't have the "become undead" part of the tooltip, my mistake.

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I'm not being reductive at all. The main aspect of Primordial Wave is this;

    That's all there really is to the spell. The rest of it is Shaman-specific stuff. The core of the spell is using one spell to either deal damage to enemies or healing allies. It's the same concept as Death Coil.
    Absolute nobody cares about the tiny amount of shadow damage or healing the primordial wave does, the important part is that it applies a DoT (or HoT if restoration) and copies the next Lava Surge, Lightning Bolt or Healing Wave, it turns a single target spell into an AOE spell, Thats the actually important part of the ability.

    When the expansion is over this ability is going away, it might return as a talent or baseline ability (like wake of ashes for retribution) but it also might not (like Light's Wrath for Discipline) but if it doesn't stay part of the shaman class why wouldn't this ability fit another spellcaster class especially one based on necromancy (obviously the DoT applied and HoT applied since a Necromancer class wouldn't be using riptides or flame shocks, but the core aspect of the ability is "replicates single target spell on targets with a Damage/Heal over time effect" and that would stay the same.)

    Does this type of ability fit the DK class? a Death Knight doesn't want their Howling blast or Death's Caress replicated since those abilities aren't used for damage but to apply frost fever/blood plague (and Howling Blast is already AOE), and unlike Shamans Death Knights already apply their DoT's in AOE through outbreak, howling blast and blood boil unlike shamans who can only apply a flame shock to a single target every few seconds, so being able to replicate a death coil would be absurd due to how their DoT's are applied.
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2021-02-19 at 10:28 PM.

  13. #5053
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    If you're saying that Mages will get the ability to turn into Skeletal mages after Shadowlands is over, you're sadly mistaken.
    Nope. I'm saying Necromancers could get it.

    We're talking about Necromancer abilities that use Necromancy. Again, the issue is that the DK class can absorb any ability thought up for a Necromancer class

    Why would they get Fleshcraft when they already have Bone Shield? Fleshcraft is totally a Necromancer ability.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  14. #5054
    Banned Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    Version of the spell i was looking at was a older version that didn't have the "become undead" part of the tooltip, my mistake.

    Absolute nobody cares about the tiny amount of shadow damage or healing the primordial wave does, the important part is that it applies a DoT (or HoT if restoration) and copies the next Lava Surge, Lightning Bolt or Healing Wave, it turns a single target spell into an AOE spell, Thats the actually important part of the ability.
    The DoT it applies is Flame Shock and the HoT it applies is Riptide, and I'm pretty sure it only applies Riptide if you're Restoration. Again, you're talking about Shaman specific functions, which isn't the point of this exercise. The point is give an example of a Necromancy spell that wouldn't fit the DK class, and a spell that heals allies and hurts enemies with Shadow magic isn't something outside of what a DK can do.

    Does this type of ability fit the DK class? a Death Knight doesn't want their Howling blast or Death's Caress replicated since those abilities aren't used for damage but to apply frost fever/blood plague (and Howling Blast is already AOE), and unlike Shamans Death Knights already apply their DoT's in AOE through outbreak, howling blast and blood boil unlike shamans who can only apply a flame shock to a single target every few seconds, so being able to replicate a death coil would be absurd due to how their DoT's are applied.
    You're going too much in the weeds. If Blizzard wants to give Death Coil a HoT or a DoT that triggers something else, they'll give it to them. That's frankly the easy part, since it's just a secondary/utility aspect of the spell. The main part of the spell is once again Healing an Ally and Damaging an enemy with Shadow magic. Something DKs already do, and have done for years now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Nope. I'm saying Necromancers could get it.
    But DKs already do it, so what would be the point?


    Why would they get Fleshcraft when they already have Bone Shield? Fleshcraft is totally a Necromancer ability.
    Isn't this a contradictory statement? If Bone Shield is an example of fleshcraft, why are we making another class that can do exactly what the DK is already doing? Why not create a completely new and different class and take those half-baked Necromancer ideas and use them to make the DK class more interesting?

  15. #5055
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    But DKs already do it, so what would be the point?
    Mages do it, DK's don't have a form. Lichborne isn't a form, right?

    Isn't this a contradictory statement? If Bone Shield is an example of fleshcraft, why are we making another class that can do exactly what the DK is already doing?
    Because it doesn't do exactly what a DK is already doing. You're just comparing individual abilities.

    You're making an argument that a DK that does exactly the same as a Mage with Skeletal Mage form. They aren't the same at all, and the argument is invalid.


    Deathborne is a long cooldown ability that transforms you into a undead skeletal mage increasing your spell damage by 10% and causing your primary damaging ability to hit 2 other nearby targets.

    Lichborne draws upon unholy and frost energies to become Undead for 10 sec. While undead all damage is reduced by 30% and you are nearly unstoppable becoming immune to Stun, Snare, Fear and Root effects.

    Not even remotely the same abilities, not even remotely for the same Role or purpose.


    Bone Shield Surrounds you with a barrier of whirling bones, increasing Armor by (70 * Strength / 100)

    Fleshcraft Form a shield of flesh and bone over 4 sec that absorbs damage equal to 20% of your maximum health for 2 min.

    They're different, but similar enough that the DK wouldn't have any real need for it.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-02-19 at 10:39 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  16. #5056
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Nope. I'm saying Necromancers could get it.

    Why would they get Fleshcraft when they already have Bone Shield? Fleshcraft is totally a Necromancer ability.
    Honestly I doubt Primordial Wave is going to anyone but Shamans especially given how popular Necrolords are among Shamans because of the ability (mainly elemental), chances are the ability will return under a slightly different name but with the same functionality, fleshcraft is more up in the air.

    I don't think a Necromancer class needs to be made out of hand me downs from the covenant system but the style and aesthetic of certain covenants (especially necrolords) can form a basis for the themes of a Necromancer class i.e flesh, bone, slimes/oozes, constructs, anima

    a Spec could be based on the house of constructs and manipulation of flesh/bone, casting bone spears/spikes, summoning constructs, perhaps using mechanics similar to the corpse spells of the diablo 3 necromancer, monster deaths leave behind a corpse that are used as a resource for more powerful damage spells/create more powerful constructs with the ability to generate their own corpses through summoned construct deaths.

    another based on the house of plagues, casting poison bolts/nova's, spreading DoTs, summoning slimes/Slimed Skeletons.

    Third spec could be based on house of rituals with anima/necrotic spells, with deathwalker/death elemental summons, maybe cold spells but with more a "chill of the grave/death" design instead of frostbolts/cold winds or a healer spec based on blood magic/anima with blood elementals/oozes
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2021-02-19 at 10:55 PM.

  17. #5057
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Mages do it, DK's don't have a form. Lichborne isn't a form, right?



    Because it doesn't do exactly what a DK is already doing. You're just comparing individual abilities.

    You're making an argument that a DK that does exactly the same as a Mage with Skeletal Mage form. They aren't the same at all, and the argument is invalid.


    Deathborne is a long cooldown ability that transforms you into a undead skeletal mage increasing your spell damage by 10% and causing your primary damaging ability to hit 2 other nearby targets.

    Lichborne draws upon unholy and frost energies to become Undead for 10 sec. While undead all damage is reduced by 30% and you are nearly unstoppable becoming immune to Stun, Snare, Fear and Root effects.

    Not even remotely the same abilities, not even remotely for the same Role or purpose.
    In both cases the character turns undead. That's the point of the spell. Again, what's the fundamental difference between a Skeletal Mage casting Frost Nova and a DK under Lichborne casting Howling Blast?


    Bone Shield Surrounds you with a barrier of whirling bones, increasing Armor by (70 * Strength / 100)

    Fleshcraft Form a shield of flesh and bone over 4 sec that absorbs damage equal to 20% of your maximum health for 2 min.

    They're different, but similar enough that the DK wouldn't have any real need for it.
    Yes, because they already have Bone Shield, which comes from you hacking people up with Marrowrend.

    Like Lichborne, these abilities are thematically the same thing.

    Anyway, we're just going in circles here, so you guys can have the last word. It's plainly obvious that the Necromancer brings nothing new to the table that the DK can't accomplish. Again, this is by design since Blizzard placed the Necromancer concept in the DK class, so Necromancer abilities have ended up there for the better part of a decade. While I view the Necromancer as a DOA class concept, you guys are free to talk about it. I no longer have any desire to talk about it further.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-02-19 at 10:54 PM.

  18. #5058
    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    Honestly I doubt Primordial Wave is going to anyone but Shamans especially given how popular Necrolords are among Shamans because of the ability (mainly elemental), chances are the ability will return under a slightly different name but with the same functionality, fleshcraft is more up in the air.

    I don't think a Necromancer class needs to be made out of hand me downs from the covenant system but the style and aesthetic of certain covenants (especially necrolords) can form a basis for the themes of a Necromancer class i.e flesh, bone, slimes/oozes, constructs, anima
    Oh completely.

    I'm only using them as an example of Necromantic spells that are in the game that aren't attributed directly to the DK class. His argument was always centered around any and every Necromantic ability being thrown into the DK kit. We have here and now a whole slew of abilities that fit a spellcaster/healer archetype.

    And yes, while Primordial Wave is Shaman related right now, a lot of that simply needs a name change and visual modification and it would fit into the Necromancer perfectly.

    Fodder to the Flame -> Dark Ritual
    Bonedust Brew -> Bonedust Potion
    Death Chakram -> Spectral Scythe
    Adaptive Swarm -> Arachnid Swarm
    Primordial Wave -> Anima Wave

    That would be simple enough to start.


    As for specs, I'm totally aligned to those possibilities. I think Bone and Plague dedicated specs makes complete sense, and a Healer spec based on anima and unholy magic rather than Blood.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  19. #5059


    I'll say it once again, Dark Ranger would be a perfect Rogue spec.

  20. #5060
    different game different rules.
    the reaching is real.
    the report systems sucks and the mods are bias.

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