1. #5181
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    And all it says is "confirmation bias".
    the more that we get in terms of interviews the more we see necromancer still is a possibility

    we have a new form of magic now "domination" which is what the primus was a master in and we can assume domination magic is something necromancers use
    i also stand by the fact they said "you can look like a necromancer" weve had players look like future classes before in armor specifically designed for it

    also apparently drust druids aka KT druids use death magic according to lore

    necromancers can happen no matter how much he thinks otherwise

  2. #5182
    Domination magic definitely is a new and interesting gimmick, but I see this applied more towards Dark Rangers than Necromancers.

    Necromancers are literally about control, not suppression. However, the idea of Domination as a means of suppression actually fits best with the Dark Rangers, like what Sylvanas is using right now and what they have been known to use with spells like Charm and Possession. It's a means of 'Suppressing' one's will to control them like a puppet, while Necromancy is literally reanimating a corpse or inanimate object that has no will of its own.

    This makes more sense splitting the two definitions since we now have a more clear separation of the magic that dominated Arthas' soul when he took up Frostmourne as being something beyond simply Necromancy. It's something that can be applied to both the living and the dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  3. #5183
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Domination magic definitely is a new and interesting gimmick, but I see this applied more towards Dark Rangers than Necromancers.

    Necromancers are literally about control, not suppression. However, the idea of Domination as a means of suppression actually fits best with the Dark Rangers, like what Sylvanas is using right now and what they have been known to use with spells like Charm and Possession. It's a means of 'Suppressing' one's will to control them like a puppet, while Necromancy is literally reanimating a corpse or inanimate object that has no will of its own.

    This makes more sense splitting the two definitions since we now have a more clear separation of the magic that dominated Arthas' soul when he took up Frostmourne as being something beyond simply Necromancy. It's something that can be applied to both the living and the dead.
    It does sound a little more "dark ranger-y" than "necromancer-y", I agree, but I imagine the necromancer concept could be expanded to fit this 'domination magic' thingie if it turns out to actually be its own thing and not just a fancy name. After all, technically the necromancers suppress the free will of the souls they use to animate the undead, right?
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  4. #5184
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    It does sound a little more "dark ranger-y" than "necromancer-y", I agree, but I imagine the necromancer concept could be expanded to fit this 'domination magic' thingie if it turns out to actually be its own thing and not just a fancy name. After all, technically the necromancers suppress the free will of the souls they use to animate the undead, right?
    I don't quite agree with the latter statement since the devs were making out the Jailer as using a different type of magic from what we normally associate as Necromancy. That's why they are calling it Domination magic, that's why they are saying the Jailer has been dominated and is mastering it now.

    I don't think the typical Necromancy we see involves domination, and it's not suppressing the free will of souls used to animate undead. If it were that simple, the Devs wouldn't have to make any distinction to the type of magic he's using from regular Necromancy. They would just say the Jailer's using Necromancy and this is all a part of what Necromancy does.

    We already assumed that Necromancy has the innate ability to dominate one's will/soul since this is what we assumed was used on Arthas. The new revelation of Domination magic is a completely new nuance that is separate from how Necromancers typically use their magic.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-02-25 at 07:07 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  5. #5185
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zantheus1993 View Post
    the more that we get in terms of interviews the more we see necromancer still is a possibility

    we have a new form of magic now "domination" which is what the primus was a master in and we can assume domination magic is something necromancers use
    i also stand by the fact they said "you can look like a necromancer" weve had players look like future classes before in armor specifically designed for it

    also apparently drust druids aka KT druids use death magic according to lore

    necromancers can happen no matter how much he thinks otherwise
    Isn't "domination magic" just another term for what Priests do?

    Mind Soothe, Mind Control, Mind Blast, Mind Vision, Dominate Mind, Mind Sear, Mind Flay, Mind Trauma, Mindbender, etc.

    All in the Priest class. What more could you do with it?

  6. #5186
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Domination magic definitely is a new and interesting gimmick, but I see this applied more towards Dark Rangers than Necromancers.

    Necromancers are literally about control, not suppression. However, the idea of Domination as a means of suppression actually fits best with the Dark Rangers, like what Sylvanas is using right now and what they have been known to use with spells like Charm and Possession. It's a means of 'Suppressing' one's will to control them like a puppet, while Necromancy is literally reanimating a corpse or inanimate object that has no will of its own.

    This makes more sense splitting the two definitions since we now have a more clear separation of the magic that dominated Arthas' soul when he took up Frostmourne as being something beyond simply Necromancy. It's something that can be applied to both the living and the dead.
    Personally i don't see "domination magic" as being an entirely new form of magic but instead a variation of mind-based magic that isn't tied to Shadow/Void magic, same way we have fire magic in Nature (Shamans), Arcane (Mages), Fel (Warlocks) and Death (Flameforge Mawsworn) we seem to have have mind magic in shadow and death variations with their own style/rules ("domination magic" seems to be done primarily by or related to runes like with Frostmourne, Helm of Domination, Kingsmourne, Domination Blade & Mawsworn Shackles)

    Domination Magic will probably be clarified/retconned as to being how the Lich King suppresses the free will of those he raises while still keeping their personality (like Sylvanas when she was a banshee).

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Let's also not forget that at the very beginning of this expansion there was a massive scourge invasion that we had to put down. I'm sure Blizzard could have easily wrote in that some Necromancers show up to help us push back the scourge and then decide to help us navigate the shadowlands. I mean, I'm sure a Necromancer would be quite interested in exploring the birthplace of Necromancy and Blood Magic.
    The Scourge Invasions are still ongoing, the Kyrian Questline involves ferrying a soul who died in an attack by the rampaging scourge in Lakeshire, We also have no idea how the Scourge Invasions, the piercing of the veil or the effects of mortals visiting the shadowlands could have on future setting, same way we presumably still have Azerite around. they couldn't have "easily wrote in" a group of Necromancers because there aren't any good or neutral aligned Necromancers on Azeroth, Bolvar and the Knights of the Ebon Blade make sense because Bolvar is their defacto leader since Legion (since the Deathlord is a non-entity for story reasons) and the Knights of the Ebon Blade & Bolvar have a established link to the shadowlands since the Jailor was behind the scourge and they have been touched/influenced by it's magic.

    We also know from Monks that the main events of an expansion don't nessessarily related to how they were introduced, the context for how Monks became playable was Pandaren from two opposing philosophies on the Wandering Isle decided to join the Alliance and Horde which led to other races learning Pandaren martial arts, that ultimately had nothing to do with the actual events of Mists of Pandaria which was the Alliance and Horde fighting over territory on Pandaria after the mists parted which has nothing to do with the Pandaren of the Wandering Isle.

    As long as themes related to Death enter the narrative again, Necromancers could be introduced maybe using aesthetics and gameplay concepts derived from Shadowlands (specifically Maldraxxus), such as being themed after certain houses (rituals, contructs, plague) using undead/creations from there (slimes, contructs, animates, deathwalkers).

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I mean, I'm sure a Necromancer would be quite interested in exploring the birthplace of Necromancy and Blood Magic.
    It wouldn't make sense to have Maldraxxus themed Necromancers running around when we've just actually entered the place, in the context of universe the inciting incident of MoP (Mists of Pandaria parting and the alliance and horde the continent) has nothing to do with reasons monks became playable (factions from the wandering isle joining the alliance/horde) Monks didn't become playable due to he main events of MoP it was a tertiary/unrelated story about the Wandering Isle that ultimately doesn't impact the main events of MoP at all

    (Venthyr also have nothing to do with Blood Magic, they just look like vampires and their anima is colored red but it's anima they sustain themselves on which is soul juice not blood, Blood Magic is a San'layn/Blood Troll thing)

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    That should say all we need to know about the future prospects of a Necromancer class.
    All it says is your confirmation bias prevents you from recognizing other peoples wishes for a next class as valid and worth respecting, the fact that you don't see any value in a Necromancer class doesn't mean other people can't wish to see an archetype that they like be represented and you're disrespectful enough to tell them to go play a Death Knight if they want a Necromancer class because according to you they're the same thing, even though they are completely different archetypes (Anti-Paladin/Dark Knight vs a Dark themed spellcaster) because they share the same magic (Death Magic)(which also makes Warlocks and Demon Hunters "the same")

    If you genuinely can't see a difference between this:


    And this:


    And can't see why someone would desire a class that resembles the first in aesthetic and gameplay then it's clear you aren't interested in discussion but instead in shutting down anything that doesn't conform to your subjective tastes (and i say this as someone who ranks a "technology" archetype as higher than a "necromancer" archetype on what i'd like out of the next class)
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2021-02-25 at 10:46 PM.

  7. #5187
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    It wouldn't make sense to have Maldraxxus themed Necromancers running around when we've actually entered the place, same way in the context of universe the inciting incident of MoP (Mists of Pandaria parting and the alliance and horde the continent) has nothing to do with reasons monks became playable (factions from the wandering isle joining the alliance/horde).

    (Venthyr also have nothing to do with Blood Magic, they just look like vampires and their anima is colored red but it's anima they sustain themselves on which is soul juice not blood, Blood Magic is a San'layn/Blood Troll thing)
    You don't need Maldraxxus themed Necromancers, you can just have some new cult of necromancer spring up that we've never met before, or be an offshoot of some existing group. Just like a Monk in MoP, the Necromancer would be interested in venturing to the Shadowlands to see where their magic originates from and possibly learn some more secrets.

    As for the Venthyr and Revendreth;

    WELCOME TO REVENDRETH
    “When we were talking about the different possibilities of the Shadowlands, we talked about what classic themes are related to afterlives and undead.” says Steve Danuser, lead narrative designer on World of Warcraft. A natural conclusion to that conversation was vampirism and blood magic, pulling inspiration from classic tales like Dracula. This also explains parts of Azeroth we’ve seen before, from the blood trolls of Nazmir to Blood Queen Lana’thel and her servants in Icecrown Citadel. We’ve seen the powers of the Venthyr before; now we get to meet them up close.
    https://www.polygon.com/2020/7/23/21...iew-revendreth

    All it says is your confirmation bias prevents you from recognizing other peoples wishes for a next class as valid and worth respecting, the fact that you don't see any value in a Necromancer class doesn't mean other people can't wish to see an archetype that they like be represented and you're disrespectful enough to tell them to go play a Death Knight if they want a Necromancer class because according to you they're the same thing, even though they are completely different archetypes (Anti-Paladin/Dark Knight vs a Dark themed spellcaster) because they share the same magic (Death Magic)(which also makes Warlocks and Demon Hunters "the same")
    Comments like the one you made above is exactly why I do what I do. You guys just run off and define things how you want to define them based on your personal opinions. Evidence be damned!

  8. #5188
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Isn't "domination magic" just another term for what Priests do?

    Mind Soothe, Mind Control, Mind Blast, Mind Vision, Dominate Mind, Mind Sear, Mind Flay, Mind Trauma, Mindbender, etc.

    All in the Priest class. What more could you do with it?
    Except it's not. We have never heard of "domination magic" until Shadowlands, and it's definitely not void magic, which is what shadow priests employ, considering others like the Archon, Primus and Winter Queen seem to be able to use, considering they are the ones that imprisoned the Jailer, using domination magic.

    So, no. It's not what Shadow Priests do.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    I don't quite agree with the latter statement since the devs were making out the Jailer as using a different type of magic from what we normally associate as Necromancy. That's why they are calling it Domination magic, that's why they are saying the Jailer has been dominated and is mastering it now.

    I don't think the typical Necromancy we see involves domination, and it's not suppressing the free will of souls used to animate undead. If it were that simple, the Devs wouldn't have to make any distinction to the type of magic he's using from regular Necromancy. They would just say the Jailer's using Necromancy and this is all a part of what Necromancy does.

    We already assumed that Necromancy has the innate ability to dominate one's will/soul since this is what we assumed was used on Arthas. The new revelation of Domination magic is a completely new nuance that is separate from how Necromancers typically use their magic.
    I suppose that's true. But, like I said, it is a possibility if Blizzard decide to expand on the necromancer concept, like they did with the death knight. Remember they slapped in frost magic and blood magic? They took ideas from WC3 Lich, Dreadlord and Nerubian concepts and put them into the WoW DK class.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  9. #5189
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You don't need Maldraxxus themed Necromancers, you can just have some new cult of necromancer spring up that we've never met before, or be an offshoot of some existing group. Just like a Monk in MoP, the Necromancer would be interested in venturing to the Shadowlands to see where their magic originates from and possibly learn some more secrets.
    Just Introduce a random cult of necromancers, who are opposed to the jailor, know more about the shadowslands than the former lich king and can get us there? really? I suppose after "villain would be skynet/ultron and we need Tinkers to fight it" i shouldn't expect much.

    Because Gaming Website interviews are always correct and objective proof? (remember when Blizzard told us they weren't pulling a Garrosh 2.0 with Sylvanas, look how that turned out), all the Venthyr and San'layn share is that they both ape vampire aesthetics (even then the Venthry are more inspired by orlock/nosferatu style vampires), i've played their campaign and i've never seen a reference to blood magic, blood trolls or the San'Layn, the Venthyr are about Anima (which despite being red is soul energy not blood) and Sins (pride, envy, wrath), not blood manipulation and vampirism.

    At the most they are related by surface level aesthetics, unlike the Kyrian and the Val'kyr where we know theres a thread connecting them with Odyn peering into the shadowlands and creating the Val'kyr in their image, I've yet to see a connective thread between the Venthyr and the San'layn that isn't aesthetic (theres more connecting the Venthyr to the Dreadlords lore wise than there is to Blood magic, Blood Trolls and San'layn)
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2021-02-25 at 08:20 PM.

  10. #5190
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post

    Comments like the one you made above is exactly why I do what I do. You guys just run off and define things how you want to define them based on your personal opinions. Evidence be damned!
    All that evidence served you real well before Legion came out. I remember you making almost all the same arguments for why Demon Hunters would not be added. Especially the one about their abilities being covered by specs already in the game. That argument was debunked in Legion when Blizzard simply went ahead with the class that was most popular and disregarded all the things that made it seem like it didn't fit in the game. If Blizzard adds another class, it will be based on them thinking that it is going to be popular and make people buy the game. It won't be because of any of these things you mistakenly believe are evidence.

  11. #5191
    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    I suppose that's true. But, like I said, it is a possibility if Blizzard decide to expand on the necromancer concept, like they did with the death knight. Remember they slapped in frost magic and blood magic? They took ideas from WC3 Lich, Dreadlord and Nerubian concepts and put them into the WoW DK class.
    I think the DK class already set itself up to be different from Necromancers by the simple fact that all of their mechanics revolve around Runeblades and Runic Power.

    They are using Necromancy as a tool of destruction because that is what they created with and have instilled in them. That's about it. There's no real limit on what other powers they could have chosen to use, such as Zeliek using Light or Kor'thazz dropping meteors. The player DK's are modelled on using Unholy, Frost and Blood, and that's what it happens to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  12. #5192
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abysal View Post
    All that evidence served you real well before Legion came out. I remember you making almost all the same arguments for why Demon Hunters would not be added. Especially the one about their abilities being covered by specs already in the game. That argument was debunked in Legion when Blizzard simply went ahead with the class that was most popular and disregarded all the things that made it seem like it didn't fit in the game. If Blizzard adds another class, it will be based on them thinking that it is going to be popular and make people buy the game. It won't be because of any of these things you mistakenly believe are evidence.
    You mean their abilities being covered like Metamorphosis being forced out of the Warlock class before Demon Hunters could enter the game as a class?

    Indeed Blizzard did bring Demon Hunters into the game, after nuking the demonology spec in 6.2, removing a well liked mechanic from an existing class, creating bitterness among warlock players, and creating a shallow 2-spec class for our troubles.

    Let’s hope they don’t do it again with a Necromancer class.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-02-25 at 08:26 PM.

  13. #5193
    Regarding the Bard class and potentially the Support role, if things went that way....

    I invite you dear reader to play a BM hunter in a Torghast group.... It's very possible to go it alone, although you are buffing your pet, but in a group, man you really shine as you're pumping massive dps and/or defense into one player via Misdirect buffs and into the group at large via Hunters Mark buff.

    Maybe not a great example as Torghast and TC in particular is wildly unbalanced. But it's a hell of a fun playstyle in there, at least.

  14. #5194
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    Because Gaming Website interviews are always correct and objective proof? (remember when Blizzard told us they weren't pulling a Garrosh 2.0 with Sylvanas, look how that turned out), all the Venthyr and San'layn share is that they both ape vampire aesthetics (even then the Venthry are more inspired by orlock/nosferatu style vampires), i've played their campaign and i've never seen a reference to blood magic, blood trolls or the San'Layn, the Venthyr are about Anima (which despite being red is soul energy not blood) and Sins (pride, envy, wrath), not blood manipulation and vampirism.

    At the most they are related by surface level aesthetics, unlike the Kyrian and the Val'kyr where we know theres a thread connecting them with Odyn peering into the shadowlands and creating the Val'kyr in their image, I've yet to see a connective thread between the Venthyr and the San'layn that isn't aesthetic (theres more connecting the Venthyr to the Dreadlords lore wise than there is to Blood magic, Blood Trolls and San'layn)
    So we’re supposed to take your interpretation of what Revenderth is about over someone who actually created the zone and it’s lore?

    Okay.....

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Except it's not. We have never heard of "domination magic" until Shadowlands, and it's definitely not void magic, which is what shadow priests employ, considering others like the Archon, Primus and Winter Queen seem to be able to use, considering they are the ones that imprisoned the Jailer, using domination magic.

    So, no. It's not what Shadow Priests do.
    Oh? Then what is it? Like if a class was using “domination magic” what could they do ability-wise?

  15. #5195
    Not to derail too much, but Teriz - do you play FFXIV at all? I would definitely like to hear your speculation regarding what class they have in their back pocket for the next expansion.

  16. #5196
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So we’re supposed to take your interpretation of what Revenderth is about over someone who actually created the zone and it’s lore?

    Okay.....
    https://blizzard.gamespress.com/en-G...Warcraft-Shado

    "The cunning Venthyr of Revendreth, who feast on the souls of the prideful and vain in a gothic realm of opulence and torment."

    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/sh...venant/venthyr

    "Eaters of sin who harvest anima from wicked souls."

    https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-us/ne...itation-awaits

    "The Venthyr are aristocratic overseers of souls burdened with excessive pride and wickedness. They guide troubled souls upon the rigorous path to atonement, harvesting anima to keep their realm strong."

    Lot of references to Sins and Anima, not many to Blood magic (aside from "blood mirrors"), Blood Trolls and San'layn

    I doubt Blizzard dev interviews mainly because they've exaggerated, misdirected or outright lied about their stories before (see when they said Garrosh wasn't going to be a two dimensional villain, or when Sylvanas wasn't going to be Garrosh 2.0) them saying that theres this great connective thread between Revendreth and stuff we've seen before isn't out of character. Especially when the end result doesn't include any of those supposed connections (see the lack of Blood manipulation, San'layn, Blood Trolls in the actual Revendreth we get in game) especially when the other covenants actually do fulfill their supposed connections to what we've seen before (Helya in the Kyrian Campaign, Kel'thuzad in the Necrolord campaign, Ysera in the Night Fae campaign all connected to stuff we've seen before (Val'kyr, Scourge, Emerald Dream).
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2021-02-25 at 08:48 PM.

  17. #5197
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Oh? Then what is it? Like if a class was using “domination magic” what could they do ability-wise?
    Technically anything, considering all we know about this new type of magic (assuming it is a new type of magic) is nebulously vague at best.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  18. #5198
    The Insane Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Not to derail too much, but Teriz - do you play FFXIV at all? I would definitely like to hear your speculation regarding what class they have in their back pocket for the next expansion.
    I haven’t looked into it much, but given how Square (like Blizzard) based their MMO classes off of previous games, I would look there to see the possibilities. I know they announced the Sage, and they have a new melee class planned. I’d have to see what they’re missing and cross reference it with previous classes in their older games that used the job system like FFtactics.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ielenia View Post
    Technically anything, considering all we know about this new type of magic (assuming it is a new type of magic) is nebulously vague at best.
    Doesn’t “domination” have a very specific meaning, thus forcing “domination magic” to have a very specific meaning as well?

  19. #5199
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I haven’t looked into it much, but given how Square (like Blizzard) based their MMO classes off of previous games, I would look there to see the possibilities. I know they announced the Sage, and they have a new melee class planned. I’d have to see what they’re missing and cross reference it with previous classes in their older games that used the job system like FFtactics.
    The lead developer also likes to plant clues in the t-shirts he wears to public events.

    For example, he wore a Spider-Man shirt to hint at the upcoming Samurai class. How was that a hint? Because the first modern Spider-Man movies were directed by Sam Raimi. Which, if pronounced with a Japanese accent, sounds very similar to Samurai. And quite a few people were able to guess it based on that shirt! I'm not clever enough to suss out little clues like that, but you do display a singular talent for detail. This is where your talents would absolutely shine.

  20. #5200
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Doesn’t “domination” have a very specific meaning, thus forcing “domination magic” to have a very specific meaning as well?
    Yes. But like I said: almost nothing other than the name has been revealed. It doesn't take much imagination to come up with all sort of different types of abilities for that type of magic.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

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