1. #5361
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    You'll have to elaborate a little more, because i'm not familiar with FFXIV or the red mage.
    I couldn't care less if it had a third spec. Just asking you...
    In a nutshell, is a ranged caster that reacts to procs to build two resources in balance. Once you've maxed them out, you leap into melee range for a high damage combo spender, then leap back out. Nothing mind-boggling, but something WoW doesn't have and would fit the concept of a ranged Demon Hunter quite well.

  2. #5362
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    That's not what i meant.
    New classes.
    From the Death Knight, to the Monk (Pandaren Brewmaster), to the Demon Hunter.
    And, by the way:
    Warlock - https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Arc...(Warcraft_III)
    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Gul...(Warcraft_III)
    Priest - https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Priest_(Warcraft_III)
    The Priest unit was what I meant though. It wasn't a hero unit, it was just a regular one. And there wasn't a warlock unit available at all. Neither Archimonde nor Gul'dan were playable units, much less a Hero unit.

    Why differentiate between old and new classes though? It's not like Blizzard developers have one set of rules they had to follow for launch classes and another set they have to follow for classes released in expansions.

  3. #5363
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    it's just a 'name on a list' just like Tinkers or Bards or Dragonsworn.
    And Necromancers and Dark Rangers and Shadow Hunters and Wardens and a dozen others.

    Without that shortlist in hand, nothing is completely off the table. Particularly when the current development team seems pretty obsessed with subverting our expectations rather than following any kind of logical or consistent plan for the flavour elements of the game.

  4. #5364
    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes, and the pool itself is practically infinite.

    As I said, anything can be a class, whether you personally put merit in the concept or not.

    Apothecary or Alchemist, there isn't one concept that is stronger than the other. There is no value to either, and there is value to both. Its ranks on the list would actually be what matters to whether Blizzard chooses to take that concept and run with it; as otherwise it's just a 'name on a list' just like Tinkers or Bards or Dragonsworn.

    You can't say rank isn't important either. It's all equally important. We're not talking about a class for the Table Top RPG or for Heroes of the Storm where they can add anything they wish, we're talking about what would potentially be considered on the shortlist of actually being playable.
    Then, this whole discussion is pointless. I can suggest the slavemaster class, for all i care, and it would be considered 'viable'.

    Until they do so, and break their pattern, like they did with Allied races, for example, i'm gonna go with their current class addition pattern.

    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    In a nutshell, is a ranged caster that reacts to procs to build two resources in balance. Once you've maxed them out, you leap into melee range for a high damage combo spender, then leap back out. Nothing mind-boggling, but something WoW doesn't have and would fit the concept of a ranged Demon Hunter quite well.
    Sounds like the old Demonology Warlock.
    Which was, in fact, based on the Warcraft 3 Metamorphosis.

    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    The Priest unit was what I meant though. It wasn't a hero unit, it was just a regular one. And there wasn't a warlock unit available at all. Neither Archimonde nor Gul'dan were playable units, much less a Hero unit.

    Why differentiate between old and new classes though? It's not like Blizzard developers have one set of rules they had to follow for launch classes and another set they have to follow for classes released in expansions.
    The Warlock was a campaign unit.

    It seems they do. As can be seen with the addition of the Death Knight, Demon Hunter and Monk (while Necromancer and Runemaster didn't make it).
    Last edited by username993720; 2021-04-07 at 07:52 PM.
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  5. #5365
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Poach from FFXIV and go full Red Mage with it. Or, you know, literally give them the old transformation Demonology spec that was removed to make room for Demon Hunter, but never rematerialized. Name it Chaos after their old damage type and call it a day.
    I would so main that

    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    In any case, you can argue about "overlap" until you're red in the face, but it's all moot when classes are homogenized as they are. We have combo points and we have builder/spenders and very little outside of that in terms of variable gameplay. Just add another skin on the already creatively-bereft options and it's a done deal.
    This problem is exactly why i think they are afraid to make new classes
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    My assumption is that they didn't want to devote the art resources for a third demon form.

  6. #5366
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    Then, this whole discussion is pointless. I can suggest the slavemaster class, for all i care, and it would be considered 'viable'.
    Yes, because potential means viability.

    Can anyone really say *any* class is off the table? If Blizzard wanted to make Slavemaster, they could surprise us out of left field and do so. Can you say with complete certainty that they wouldn't make it? No, without any evidence against the class concept, you couldn't.

    All we can discuss are the merits of the possibilities of having them. And despite what patterns you see with Themes or Gameplay or Warcraft 3 Heroes, we don't actually have insight into what they consider a viable or non-viable pick. All we have to go off of are statements the devs have made regarding post-mortem picks of classes.

    Even the current PR speak they do is not reliable. When asked about a Tinker, Ghostcrawler poses whether they would be too whimsical. Well, is this denying the Tinker? Not at all, he's simply addressing part of the Tinkers merits. Or what about when a CM literally said 'No we do not have plans for Demon Hunter right now'? Well, we know in retrospect they *did* plan it, as the time of those statements would have had Legion as a potential expansion planned, with all the classes lined up on the shortlist, including the Demon Hunter. Yet they couldn't just reveal that in a twitter/blue post, so of course we can only take what they say in regards to new classes with a grain of salt. There is no reliable way to *deny* any class concept as a potential class, because every precedent that was used against Demon Hunters had been broken.

    As for my own evaluations, I'm simply pointing at popularity and demand as *one of many* factors that should all be considered. They aren't designing new classes in a box where only the right Warcraft 3 hero will fit. We know for a fact that's not how they consider new classes. We know for a fact they can and will take a WC3 Hero concept and simply attribute it as a *spec* of a more broad-range class; the Brewmaster as a Monk. We know they considered the Necromancer as a different entity from the Death Knight as a class unto itself. We know they would even consider concepts outside of Warcraft itself, like Runemasters and Rogues, which have no formal equivalent in the RTS games and rather have a more generic 'RPG' archetype background.

    There's plenty we can discuss when it comes to the merits of a class, and they aren't bound to whatever constraints you seem to be choosing to classify it all under. You've chosen to categorize certain ones that may have more merit than others, but you've gone so far down your own rabbit hole that you are regarding your own box as though everyone agrees with your standards. I'm simply bringing you back to reality and laying out the clear truth - there is no box except for what you decided to create for yourself. There are no patterns to glean which classes are 'more viable' than others. There is no standard that can point to an Alchemist class being more substantial than an Apothecary. Your conclusions are based on your own subjective patterns of recognition, which you're using to deny the viability of concepts that don't happen to fit your box.

    All you have to base your ideas on is causation. So what if Blizzard has so far only added new classes based on WC3 heroes? You hadn't even considered that WC3 heroes were being picked because they were popular and in high demand. Arthas and Illidan are the two most popular characters in Warcraft, so of course they would be added. Demon Hunters were planned but simply never had the chance to appear. Pandaren were also highly in demand and were about to become playable in TBC, but were held back due to complications with China's rules around that time (https://games.no1geekfun.com/thats-w...rning-crusade/). It wasn't until MOP that they could officially make them playable, and so they packaged it all with a new Class to top it off.

    Just because a concept didn't make it to become playable doesn't mean it's off the list. We see multiple concepts return in post-mortems. Demon Hunters, Pandarens, Runemasters; all had second chances with variable success. Some were cut, some were held back, some were changed completely; all due to different factors and none pointing directly at 'Warcraft 3 Hero' as a common reasoning. I don't see there being a point to adhering to the old, fallacious logic that new classes would only be derived from WC3.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-04-07 at 09:37 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  7. #5367
    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    In a nutshell, is a ranged caster that reacts to procs to build two resources in balance. Once you've maxed them out, you leap into melee range for a high damage combo spender, then leap back out. Nothing mind-boggling, but something WoW doesn't have and would fit the concept of a ranged Demon Hunter quite well.
    I would go one step farther and and say reverse that.

    Meaning the resources would be generated in melee range and then you would jump back for the damaging barrage. More in line with their ultimate in wc3 i think.

    Survivability wouldnt be a problem cause of the soul fragment mechanic

  8. #5368
    Quote Originally Posted by AthranThom View Post
    I would go one step farther and and say reverse that.

    Meaning the resources would be generated in melee range and then you would jump back for the damaging barrage. More in line with their ultimate in wc3 i think.

    Survivability wouldnt be a problem cause of the soul fragment mechanic
    It might be cool to change their Fel Rush to a disengage that marks the target for, say, 60 seconds. You leap back, do your ranged combo, then hit the button again to bring you back to the original target, regardless of LOS or range. Make it like Illidan's ult in HotS.

  9. #5369
    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    The Warlock was a campaign unit.

    It seems they do. As can be seen with the addition of the Death Knight, Demon Hunter and Monk (while Necromancer and Runemaster didn't make it).
    What unit are you referring to?

    So, when they decided to make World of Warcraft, they sat around and said "We need to make some classes. We can use some Hero unit as direct representation, like say, the Paladin. We can use non hero units like the Priest or the Druid to make classes too. We can invent brand new stuff that really wasn't in WC3, like the Warlock. We can mash a bunch of units together to make new, more generic classes like the Warrior and the Mage. Really, we have tons of options!"

    Later on...

    "Well now we have a series of intricate rules we have to follow when adding a new class. Obviously we can't just add what we want, or try and create something new. We need to follow the rules!"

    Really?

  10. #5370
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by username993720 View Post
    the word "added".
    Means nothing.

    It, somewhat, has with the addition of Death Knights, Monks and Demon Hunters.
    I guess that's why they've been integrated, instead of added, in the end.
    And that is moving the goalposts, considering your claim was that Blizzard "would not add a Warcraft 3 unit as a class". And they have: the rogue glass did not come from any hero unit in WC3. The druid class came from the druid units. The warlock class came from no warcraft 3 unit. All three of them just took abilities from other units and heroes, but the concept themselves did not come from the hero units.

    And then we have the runemaster concept, which did not come from anywhere in Warcraft 3, and was still one of the top 3 choices for a class in Wrath.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

  11. #5371
    Class i want to see added (need a better name for it though):


    Battlemage
    Armor: Mail
    Roles: mdps(Spellblade), rdps(Arcane Archer),tank(Spellbreaker), heal(Chronomancy)
    Weapons: sword/glaive+staff, bow, sword/glaive+shield, staff
    Themes: Titans, Arcane, Enchantment, Anti-magic, Frostfire(i miss frostfire bolt), Shadow(Arcane-based), Time magic, basically anything to do with arcane other than the three standard schools

    Mechanic/Theme Ideas:
    Spellbreaker: Absorbing magic damage and using it to either mitigate physical damage or attacking
    Spellblade: Frostfire Marks applied on targets allowing for extra damage and other effects on melee attacks
    Arcane Archer: Enchanted Arrows/Ammo giving different effects to certain abilities.I.E Arcane Arrows doing extra dmg, Rimebound Arrows debilitating(Slow, root etc), Black Arrows applying dots and life steal.
    Chronomancer: Shielding healer, applies temporal shield to ally so that any attacks done to him/her heals them instead of damages them etc

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    It might be cool to change their Fel Rush to a disengage that marks the target for, say, 60 seconds. You leap back, do your ranged combo, then hit the button again to bring you back to the original target, regardless of LOS or range. Make it like Illidan's ult in HotS.
    yeah pretty much what came to my mind too
    Last edited by AthranThom; 2021-04-07 at 08:51 PM.

  12. #5372
    Pit Lord Bwonsamdi the Dead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by draugril View Post
    Poach from FFXIV and go full Red Mage with it. Or, you know, literally give them the old transformation Demonology spec that was removed to make room for Demon Hunter, but never rematerialized. Name it Chaos after their old damage type and call it a day.

    In any case, you can argue about "overlap" until you're red in the face, but it's all moot when classes are homogenized as they are. We have combo points and we have builder/spenders and very little outside of that in terms of variable gameplay. Just add another skin on the already creatively-bereft options and it's a done deal.

    My assumption is that they didn't want to devote the art resources for a third demon form.
    Maybe they could also 'use' their Glaives to cast spells somehgow? And the Demon Form would be much thinner than the other two, and be colored more of a dark purple?

    Another day, another Deal....

  13. #5373
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    Maybe they could also 'use' their Glaives to cast spells somehgow? And the Demon Form would be much thinner than the other two, and be colored more of a dark purple?
    Or lean into the original aesthetic more - just a demonic void.

  14. #5374
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    What unit are you referring to?

    So, when they decided to make World of Warcraft, they sat around and said "We need to make some classes. We can use some Hero unit as direct representation, like say, the Paladin. We can use non hero units like the Priest or the Druid to make classes too. We can invent brand new stuff that really wasn't in WC3, like the Warlock. We can mash a bunch of units together to make new, more generic classes like the Warrior and the Mage. Really, we have tons of options!"

    Later on...

    "Well now we have a series of intricate rules we have to follow when adding a new class. Obviously we can't just add what we want, or try and create something new. We need to follow the rules!"

    Really?
    He's referring to the Warlock unit.

    I spent 5 seconds googling it for you.

  15. #5375
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    He's referring to the Warlock unit.

    I spent 5 seconds googling it for you.
    Okay, let me try again then.

    Here is the Priest. We can see abilities like Heal, Dispel Magic and Inner Fire which form the basis for abilities of the Priest class in WoW.
    Here is the Paladin. We can see abilities like Holy Light, Devotion Aura and Divine Shield which form the basis for abilities of the Paladin class in WoW.
    Here is the Archmage, Blood Mage and Sorceress. We can see abilities like Blizzard, Water Elemental, Flamestrike, Slow, Invisibility and Polymorph which form the basis for abilities of the Mage class in WoW.

    Please direct me to the Warlock unit that does the same.

  16. #5376
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    Okay, let me try again then.

    Here is the Priest. We can see abilities like Heal, Dispel Magic and Inner Fire which form the basis for abilities of the Priest class in WoW.
    Here is the Paladin. We can see abilities like Holy Light, Devotion Aura and Divine Shield which form the basis for abilities of the Paladin class in WoW.
    Here is the Archmage, Blood Mage and Sorceress. We can see abilities like Blizzard, Water Elemental, Flamestrike, Slow, Invisibility and Polymorph which form the basis for abilities of the Mage class in WoW.

    Please direct me to the Warlock unit that does the same.
    Already did, let me do it again. We can see abilities like Fire Bolt and Cripple which formed a basis for similar spells in WoW.

  17. #5377
    The Patient BB8's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AthranThom View Post
    Class i want to see added (need a better name for it though):


    Battlemage
    Armor: Mail
    Roles: mdps(Spellblade), rdps(Arcane Archer),tank(Spellbreaker), heal(Chronomancy)
    Weapons: sword/glaive+staff, bow, sword/glaive+shield, staff
    Themes: Titans, Arcane, Enchantment, Anti-magic, Frostfire(i miss frostfire bolt), Shadow(Arcane-based), Time magic, basically anything to do with arcane other than the three standard schools

    Mechanic/Theme Ideas:
    Spellbreaker: Absorbing magic damage and using it to either mitigate physical damage or attacking
    Spellblade: Frostfire Marks applied on targets allowing for extra damage and other effects on melee attacks
    Arcane Archer: Enchanted Arrows/Ammo giving different effects to certain abilities.I.E Arcane Arrows doing extra dmg, Rimebound Arrows debilitating(Slow, root etc), Black Arrows applying dots and life steal.
    Chronomancer: Shielding healer, applies temporal shield to ally so that any attacks done to him/her heals them instead of damages them etc

    - - - Updated - - -



    yeah pretty much what came to my mind too
    Nice.... I would create a char...
    Maybe three ... one for each spec.

  18. #5378
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnusthegreat View Post
    Already did, let me do it again. We can see abilities like Fire Bolt and Cripple which formed a basis for similar spells in WoW.
    No. You didn't. Please direct me to the info on the unit. Like I did. For example, here's the info on Blizzard:

    Blizzard
    Calls down waves of freezing ice shards that damage units in a target area.
    Level Duration Cooldown Mana Cost Range Area of Effect Allowed Targets Effect Hero Level Req
    1 6 sec. 6 sec. 75 80 20 N/A 6 waves at 30 damage each, 150 max damage 1
    2 8 sec. 6 sec. 75 80 20 N/A 8 waves at 40 damage each, 200 max damage 3
    3 10 sec. 6 sec. 75 80 20 N/A 10 waves at 50 damage each, 250 max damage 5

    Please do the same for, say, this Firebolt. Or better yet, please direct me to the spells that Warlocks in WoW cast that are derived from those abilities. Please show me the unit that Blizzard used for inspiration when it came to developing a class in World of Warcraft.

  19. #5379
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    No. You didn't. Please direct me to the info on the unit. Like I did. For example, here's the info on Blizzard:

    Blizzard
    Calls down waves of freezing ice shards that damage units in a target area.
    Level Duration Cooldown Mana Cost Range Area of Effect Allowed Targets Effect Hero Level Req
    1 6 sec. 6 sec. 75 80 20 N/A 6 waves at 30 damage each, 150 max damage 1
    2 8 sec. 6 sec. 75 80 20 N/A 8 waves at 40 damage each, 200 max damage 3
    3 10 sec. 6 sec. 75 80 20 N/A 10 waves at 50 damage each, 250 max damage 5

    Please do the same for, say, this Firebolt. Or better yet, please direct me to the spells that Warlocks in WoW cast that are derived from those abilities. Please show me the unit that Blizzard used for inspiration when it came to developing a class in World of Warcraft.
    I believe in you.

  20. #5380
    Quote Originally Posted by jellmoo View Post
    No. You didn't. Please direct me to the info on the unit. Like I did. For example, here's the info on Blizzard:

    Please do the same for, say, this Firebolt. Or better yet, please direct me to the spells that Warlocks in WoW cast that are derived from those abilities. Please show me the unit that Blizzard used for inspiration when it came to developing a class in World of Warcraft.
    If anything, the Warlock class is most likely based on the Warcraft 1 unit of the same name.

    Of the Cloth casters we have in the game right now, all three can be sourced to Warcraft 1. Priest is the Cleric unit, the typical healer archetype. Mage is obviously the Conjuror, the Arcane/Elemental magic specialist. Warlock is the Warlock, summoner of demons and dark magic user.

    From there they flavoured the archetypes with WC3 abilities and new ones created for the new classes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

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