1. #5521
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, in what scenario do you go with the Runemaster over the DK class when you can place the Runemaster concept within the DK class?.
    The scenario where the devs consider a whole bunch of different concepts at once, and choose the best one.

    Do you really think they only consider one thing at a time and do absolutely zero exploration of concepts when considering the *first ever* new playable Class for WoW?


    https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...Dev-Interviews

    Gamona.de
    - The expansion will release next year.
    - Demon Hunter has been considered since Wrath of the Lich King.
    Based on post-mortem information, we even know Demon Hunter was on the table in Wrath.

    Necromancer and Runemaster were not the *only* ones alongside the DK. They were the only ones mentioned because they had mechanics absorbed into the DK's kit. We're learning ever-so-slowly that there were more concepts being considered back then, and we're just not aware that they were until we get information about them.

    Of course, they're not going to talk about all of their cut content since some of it still has relevance for the future, like how any news on Demon Hunters was kept a complete secret until Legion.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-04-12 at 06:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  2. #5522
    Quote Originally Posted by Bwonsamdi the Dead View Post
    Exactly. We just need there to be 'San'Layn' (probably not 'true' ones but eh) that aren't elves, and 'feral' ones that attack other races and turn them into vampires
    If they're not elves, they're not san'layn.

  3. #5523
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    The scenario where the devs consider a whole bunch of different concepts at once, and choose the best one.
    You ever stop to consider why the "best choice" has been consistently concepts expanded from WC3?

    Necromancer and Runemaster were not the *only* ones alongside the DK. They were the only ones mentioned because they had mechanics absorbed into the DK's kit.
    If I remember that story correctly, Runemaster, Necromancer, and Death Knights were the "finalists".

    Finalists in an expansion that was about the Lich King.

  4. #5524
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You ever stop to consider why the "best choice" has been consistently concepts expanded from WC3?

    If I remember that story correctly, Runemaster, Necromancer, and Death Knights were the "finalists".

    Finalists in an expansion that was about the Lich King.
    Yes. Runemaster was a finalist. Guess what concepts the Runemaster beat out? Demon Hunter. Dark Ranger. Brewmaster.

    Runemaster wasn't a WC3 unit or hero, so I don't have to consider that the devs had any particular bias towards expanding WC3 concepts over any other RPG archetype.

    I think considering the Bard as an April Fools joke is indicative of that too, since they could have gone with any number of obscure WC3 references.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-04-12 at 06:14 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  5. #5525
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Yes. So why do you find it dubious that Runemaster was a finalist? Because it wasn't a WC3 concept?
    I find it dubious because the Death Knight had both the Runemaster and Necromancer concept ingrained within it in WC3, yet amazingly those related concepts were supposedly in the running to be individual classes. Again, a little too convenient considering the same scenario couldn't happen if the other two choices were chosen instead.

  6. #5526
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I find it dubious because the Death Knight had both the Runemaster ingrained within it in WC3
    They did not.

    If that is your reasoning, then you're kind of fooling yourself.

    Though that explains why you think it's dubious too.
    Last edited by Triceron; 2021-04-12 at 06:21 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  7. #5527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    They did not.

    If that is your reasoning, then you're kind of fooling yourself.

    Though that explains why you think it's dubious too.
    When they finally reached Ner'zhul's icy fortress in Northrend they had become dark and brooding. The Lich King offered them untold power in exchange for their services and loyalty. The weary, vengeful warriors accepted his dark pact, and although they retained their humanity, their twisted souls were bound to his evil will for all time. Bestowed with black, vampiric Runeblades and shadowy steeds, Death Knights serve as the Scourge's mightiest generals.
    http://classic.battle.net/war3/undea...thknight.shtml

  8. #5528
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    *Runeblades*
    So you think Arthas had Runemaster ingrained in him in WC3?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  9. #5529
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I find it dubious because the Death Knight had both the Runemaster and Necromancer concept ingrained within it in WC3, yet amazingly those related concepts were supposedly in the running to be individual classes. Again, a little too convenient considering the same scenario couldn't happen if the other two choices were chosen instead.
    Your kind of stretching a single line "Bestowed with black, vampiric Runeblades" in their description to say it encompasses the entire concept of a runemaster, non of their WC3 abilities involve runes (and are really just evil version of paladin abilities).

    From what little we know about the Runemaster concept they had it was a monk or rogue-like melee fighter who "wrote runes on their bodies to give them different physical powers" which is similar to the RPG class in concept.

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Runemaster#In_the_RPG
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2021-04-12 at 06:26 PM.

  10. #5530
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    So you think Arthas had Runemaster ingrained in him in WC3?
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    Your kind of stretching a single line "Bestowed with black, vampiric Runeblades" in their description to say it encompasses the entire concept of a runemaster, non of their WC3 abilities involve runes (and are really just evil paladin abilities).

    From what little we know about the Runemaster concept they had it was a monk or rogue-like melee fighter who "wrote runes on their bodies to give them different physical powers" which is similar to the RPG class in concept.

    https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Runemaster#In_the_RPG
    None of their WC3 abilities needed to involve Runes, all they needed was a basis for the expansion of the concept. Them using Runeblades, and the Lich King used Frostmourne (From which the DKs are based on) being a Runeblade gave them that expansion point.

    As for TTRPG Runemasters, Runemasters in WoW itself have never demonstrated Monk-like abilities in any of their appearances. This leads me to believe that the Monk variety of Runemasters is only within the TTRPG environment, and probably discarded completely in favor of the Pandaren monks we eventually got. Which again displays a preference of WC3 concepts over other iterations.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2021-04-12 at 06:28 PM.

  11. #5531
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.
    Then you answered your own question, and you shouldn't have any dubious thoughts regarding Runemaster.

    Runemaster has relevance from WC3 and Wrath of the Lich King if you believed Arthas was a Runemaster by default.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  12. #5532
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Then you answered your own question, and you shouldn't have any dubious thoughts regarding Runemaster.

    Runemaster has relevance from WC3 and Wrath of the Lich King if you believed Arthas was a Runemaster by default.
    Except the belief is that Runemaster was a stand alone class concept. Since Death Knight were already runemasters, then the stand alone class concept never really existed in the first place.

  13. #5533
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Except the belief is that Runemaster was a stand alone class concept. Since Death Knight were already runemasters, then the stand alone class concept never really existed in the first place.
    Right.

    Which means your belief was wrong, since the Devs have confirmed their Class considerations goes against your belief, and not in favour of it.

    But hey, the koolaid is stronger than truth I guess. I mean, if you think Arthas using runes makes him a Runemaster, you might as well go all the way and say he's a Demon Hunter too since he hunted Demons. Who are we to argue what you believe?
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  14. #5534
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.
    Priests had mana burn a Demon Hunter ability, does that make Priests Demon Hunters? Rogues had evasion does that make Rogues Demon Hunters? Warlocks had metamorphosis for years but that didn't make them "demon hunters" in concept

    Pre-WoLK the only example of a character, class or anything WoW related bearing the name "runemaster" was the TTRPG Runemaster, which is a monk-like unarmed fighter who enhances themselves with runes.

    Death Knights possessing a runeblade doesn't make them "runemasters" because thats a more specific concept that existed in the TTRPG, before Runemasters appeared in WoW and before Death Knights were given rune-based abilities beyond flavor text.
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2021-04-12 at 06:54 PM.

  15. #5535
    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    Priests had mana burn a Demon Hunter ability, does that make Priests Demon Hunters? Rogues had evasion does that make Rogues Demon Hunters? Warlocks had metamorphosis for years but that didn't make them "demon hunters" in concept
    Well, he did argue for years that Demon Hunters weren't gonna be playable because of all the reasons you just posted :P
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  16. #5536
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    Quote Originally Posted by Triceron View Post
    Right.

    Which means your belief was wrong, since the Devs have confirmed their Class considerations goes against your belief, and not in favour of it.
    And again, we have multiple examples of WoW devs being dishonest about future classes and content.

    But hey, the koolaid is stronger than truth I guess. I mean, if you think Arthas using runes makes him a Runemaster, you might as well go all the way and say he's a Demon Hunter too since he hunted Demons. Who are we to argue what you believe?
    Considering that we have no clear definition of what a Runemaster is, why couldn’t a master user of a rune blades not be considered a “runemaster”?

  17. #5537
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Considering that we have no clear definition of what a Runemaster is, why couldn’t a master user of a rune blades not be considered a “runemaster”?
    We have a clear definition of what Necromancer is and you still consider the Death Knight to be a Necromancer.

    I mean, what point is there to have a clear definition or not? You'd just as likely argue that Arthas was a Demon Hunter because he hunted Demons. Heck, he's even a Blademaster since he mastered the use of a bladed weapon, Frostmourne.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.

  18. #5538
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    Quote Originally Posted by Imperator4321 View Post
    Priests had mana burn a Demon Hunter ability, does that make Priests Demon Hunters? Rogues had evasion does that make Rogues Demon Hunters? Warlocks had metamorphosis for years but that didn't make them "demon hunters" in concept
    Demon Hunters were a defined concept, crystallized by Illidan, the hero unit, and Demon Hunters in TBC. Runemasters had nothing like that.

    Pre-WoLK the only example of a character, class or anything WoW related bearing the name "runemaster" was the TTRPG Runemaster, which is a monk-like unarmed fighter who enhances themselves with runes.
    And it was never a well defined concept outside of the TTRPG.

    Death Knights possessing a runeblade doesn't make them "runemasters" because thats a more specific concept that existed in the TTRPG, before Runemasters appeared in WoW and before Death Knights were given rune-based abilities beyond flavor text.
    The problem is that we never saw such a concept in WoW itself. Instead, the concept of runeblades were carried over from WC3 and expanded upon within the DK class. The TTRPG runemaster concept was completely ignored. Even the Runemasters that appeared in WoW were not Monk-like, and actually reinforced the runic concept pushed by the DK class.

  19. #5539
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And again, we have multiple examples of WoW devs being dishonest about future classes and content.
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Considering that we have no clear definition of what a Runemaster is, why couldn’t a master user of a rune blades not be considered a “runemaster”?
    Except the Runemaster was a clear concept, from the TTRPG who enhances themselves with runes and fights unarmed

    "Runemasters are monk-like arcane spellcaster and melee fighters who empower themselves with magical energies by inscribing runes onto their bodies."
    "He merges brute strength with arcane magic, covering his body with mystic tattoos and often imbuing them with magical energies to increase his skill in hand-to-hand combat. "
    "Runemasters fill many roles. They are adept melee combatants. They possess runes to enhance themselves and their allies, as well as to ward certain areas and otherwise make life difficult for their opponents."

    All of this comes from the TTRPG released years before Wrath of the Lich King.

    Death Knights beyond flavor text and lore had no explicitly rune-based powers or abilities, runic power, runeforging all of that was added in Wrath which is after the Death Knight absorbed concepts surrounding the other runner-ups the Runemaster and Necromancer (from which it also got abilities like corpse explosion)

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    And it was never a well defined concept outside of the TTRPG.
    Do you think Blizzard wasn't taking inspiration from the TTRPG when they though of a monk-like fighter who enhanced themselves with Runes? sharing the exact same name as it's TTRPG counterpart?

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The problem is that we never saw such a concept in WoW itself. Instead, the concept of runeblades were carried over from WC3 and expanded upon within the DK class. The TTRPG runemaster concept was completely ignored. Even the Runemasters that appeared in WoW were not Monk-like, and actually reinforced the runic concept pushed by the DK class.
    We never saw Mistweaving until MoP, the same expansion it was introduced in, same with celestials, chi, chinese style martial arts, there are like 5 NPC's in the whole game who use the title Runemaster, thats like judging what the Monk class would be entirely from the this NPC or judging everything the Demon Hunter class would do from the mobs found in BC.
    Last edited by Imperator4321; 2021-04-12 at 07:19 PM.

  20. #5540
    The Insane Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I'm merely asking in what scenario do you have a WotLK expansion and your three choices are DK, Runemaster, and Necromancer and you DON'T go with the DK.
    Ask the developers. They're the one that thought the runemaster was a worthwhile addition. And the fact the runemaster was considered, it not only counters the idea that we need WC3 units as a basis, but it also counters the notion that a class must be tied to a 'big hero/villain' in the expansion.

    Not to mention your argument here is an "appeal to ignorance" fallacy: "there's no way any other class could be considered because I cannot think of anything."

    But those ideas from the other concepts were already wrapped up in the DK concept long before WotLK came around. Again, DKs had concepts from both Runemasters and Necromancers, so in what scenario do you go with those options when you have the more popular concept that encapsulates your other concepts?
    They haven't, though. Being able to use necromancy is not exclusive to necromancers. Death knights and dark rangers also use necromancy. And wielding weapons (or amor) with runes engraved on them certainly does not mean the class is a "master of runes", either. Otherwise, my paladin is a runemaster too, then.

    Perhaps the same reason they lied about having "no plans" for the Demon Hunter class in early 2015, only to announce the Demon Class in August of the same year.
    Wrong. That was not what they said. They said they had no plans to share about the possibility of a demon hunter class, not that they didn't have any plans for the demon hunter.

    Or how Blizzard denied that Mists of Pandaria was the next expansion, only to announce Mists of Pandaria as the next expansion a few months later.
    Those are nowhere near the same thing as "lying about what classes they have once in the past considered." The Demon Hunter and Mists of Pandaria were only they had no plans they wanted to share, considering that speaking of those ahead of time would spoil the surprise of the reveal. With the runemaster? What exactly are they spoiling about revealing that they once considered the runemaster as a potential expansion class? Nothing.

    And again: Teriz, stop dismissing what the developers say when it doesn't fit your narrative.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Since Arthas used Frostmourne, which is a Runeblade, and Frostmourne's power eminates from those runes, that made him a Runemaster by default.
    Are you really arguing that wielding a runeblade makes one into a runemaster by default?
    Last edited by Ielenia; 2021-04-12 at 07:47 PM.
    I did a Necromancer thing. Check it out! All feedback welcome!
    I also did a Bard thing! Questions, comments and ideas, all welcome!

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