If they made a new class in the future, what would it be?

[Ielenia]

The Bard came after that, and was more of a prestige class.

Original Dungeons & Dragons[edit]
In the original Dungeons & Dragons boxed set, there were only three main classes: the Cleric, the Fighting man, and the Magic-User. The first supplement, Greyhawk, added the Thief as a fourth main class, as well as the Paladin as a Fighting Man subclass. These four fantasy gaming archetypes represent four major tactical roles in play: the Fighter offers direct combat strength and durability; the Thief offers cunning and stealth; the Cleric provides support in both combat and magic; and the Magic-User has a variety of magical powers. In many ways, other classes are thought of as alternatives that refine or combine these functions. Dwarves and Halflings were restricted to the Fighting Man class, and Elves were restricted to the Fighting Man and Magic-User classes; all three non-human races had limited level advancement.

Literally, in your own quote, shows the paladin had "come later" and was literally a "prestige class". The same exact case you claim was of the bard.

In any case, there's next to zero basis for a Bard class in WoW. Blizzard has made sure of that.

Except that is objectively and demonstrably false. Music magic is a thing in the Warcraft franchise, and Shadowlands cemented that idea. Bards also do exist in Warcraft, as we saw in several iterations of the game. (vanilla, Cataclysm, Legion, BfA)

Cool. Describe it to me.

Ask Blizzard. I was not part of the team that came up with the concepts.

[Triceron]

Nice to see Blizzard incorporate Sylvanas’ HotS abilities into her raid boss encounter. Bodes well for possible Tinker and Dragon Aspect concepts.

Yup, very good news for Dark Rangers too. Good to see more HotS abilities make its way to WoW

[Teriz]

Literally, in your own quote, shows the paladin had "come later" and was literally a "prestige class". The same exact case you claim was of the bard.

Yes, and Blizzard had to heavily seed the Paladin before they brought it into WoW as a class.

Except that is objectively and demonstrably false. Music magic is a thing in the Warcraft franchise, and Shadowlands cemented that idea. Bards also do exist in Warcraft, as we saw in several iterations of the game. (vanilla, Cataclysm, Legion, BfA)

If Shadowlands cemented the idea, where is the character that encapsulates the concept? What are the list of abilities that make this concept cohesive? Also music magic exists within our existing class lineup, and its nothing different than standard magic or buffs.

Ask Blizzard. I was not part of the team that came up with the concepts.

I'm asking you because you're stating that Blizzard came up with a definable concept. Where and what is this concept?

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Yup, very good news for Dark Rangers too. Good to see more HotS abilities make its way to WoW

Considering that Nathanos and Sylvanas are more than likely dead and forgotten by the end of the next patch, I'm not seeing a way forward for Dark Rangers. At best, I see some of Sylvanas' abilities like Wailing Arrow and Withering fire get trickled down into the Hunter class. With Haunting Wave possibly ending up in the Priest class.

We'll see though.

[Triceron]

Considering that Nathanos and Sylvanas are more than likely dead and forgotten by the end of the next patch, I'm not seeing a way forward for Dark Rangers. At best, I see some of Sylvanas' abilities like Wailing Arrow and Withering fire get trickled down into the Hunter class. With Haunting Wave possibly ending up in the Priest class.

We'll see though.

How do you figure this is good for Tinkers and Dragon Aspect concepts if you're implying HotS abilities would go straight to existing classes?

And why do you think Priests would be given a necromantic ability?

[Ielenia]

Yes, and Blizzard had to heavily seed the Paladin before they brought it into WoW as a class.

... What? Are you nuts, or something? They had one single unit, the Paladin, in Warcraft 3. And then the paladin, in WC2. How is that "heavily seed"? The rogue and priest were more "heavily seeded" than the paladin.

If Shadowlands cemented the idea, where is the character that encapsulates the concept? What are the list of abilities that make this concept cohesive?

We don't need characters with actual abilities listed in WoWHead to make a concept valid. There is a NPC in Revendreth that speaks how music can be used to redeem a soul. The entirety of Bastion revolves around music: search for "the instruments of Bastion". We also have the Vespers, in Bastion. We also have a world quest in Ardenweald where we use music to capture memories.

Also music magic exists within our existing class lineup, and its nothing different than standard magic or buffs.

And standard fire magic is nothing different than fel fire magic. And arcane frost magic is nothing different than elemental frost magic. Etc, etc. You're not seeing the forest for the trees, here.

I'm asking you because you're stating that Blizzard came up with a definable concept. Where and what is this concept?

I never said that. I only pointed out that Blizzard themselves said that the runemaster concept ended up one of the top three picks for the expansion class for Wrath. I never said they came up with a "definable concept".

[username993720]

It's very pedantic to get hung up on the name "bard," especially when I called them wardrummers (which is the name for them in Legion and BFA).

https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/War_Drummer

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=126907/wardrummer-zurula

Here is a class with WC3 lore that hasn't been fully realized in playable form. It is the perfect class addition, and fits the theme of warcraft as these drummers drum the rhythm of battle. It thematically fits the game even better than a traditional bard class does (like the ones in Everquest or Final Fantasy 14), because it can apply to savage races like orcs without clashing with their aesthetic.

I wouldn't call them a class.
They were used to pump-up the spirit for war.

It's not without evidence. You are constantly trying to create arbitrary differences between "expansion classes" and "vanilla classes" that are, as I pointed out multiple times, just subjective. Blizzard has never made that distinction, and yet you claim there is one. Because you want to there be one so your arguments don't fall over.

I want it?
Just observe class additions throughout the game.

I literally explained how the concepts are different.

-_-

Illidan is the Demon Hunter from Warcraft 3. This HotS version of it is nothing but an upgrade and a modern version of it. You've got to be mad to call it a different concept. You can't really expect it to work the same way as it did a decade ago, could you?

How about watch what Blizzard is doing right now with the game, which characters and concepts are they adding? Like how Shadowlands literally has expanded the idea that music on its own can have magical power?

I do it, as well. Though it hints more at what class, from the WC3 heroes, is coming next rather than what Blizzard uses to determine which classes are added. For example, if any classes are added in these expansions: from the Light/Void theme of BFA, i infer a Shadow Hunter class ("The Shadow Hunter walks the line between light and darkness"), and from the Dragon themes of Shadowlands i can't, really, infer a Dragonsworn class, so i'm left with either an old Dragonman samurai sketch (Blademaster) or Dragonman Alchemists from Cataclysm. If you ask me about prominent figures, i infer a Dark Ranger & Priestess of the Moon class from Sylvanas and Tyrande, with either a Sea Witch or Warden as a third supplement.

Mostly the sources outside Warcraft, really.

Sure thing, buddy.
Let's just ignore the whole Pandaren lore Blizz had. They had the race, almost, ready for TBC, for crying out loud. But, you think they didn't have enough sources of their own.

Being chinese themed does not mean "martial arts monk."

So, what does it mean? Covid?
Come on... be realistic.

Again, not really. They had the pandaren, and had this idea that the pandaren are about ales and are Chinese-themed. More than that, came from outside sources.

Yeah... nothing martial artsy about that, huh?

We don't have to, because Blizzard themselves told us: "the runemaster was one of the three runner-ups" means that the runemaster made it up until the point where they decide which concept to realize into an actual class in the game.

That's brainstorming stage. Nothing concrete or on a playable level.

But the majority of the class' concept has been taken from outside sources. The basis of the class itself (the 'monk') is also sourced from outside Warcraft since the franchise did not have oriental style monk characters.

"Pandaren are formidable monks, following their philosophies to the letter and perfecting their martial arts as they see fit." - from the RPG

Yes, Mistweaver and Windwalker were taken from outside sources, but you can't point out where or relate them to a known character, like you can Brewmaster.

No, he hasn't. All they have argued about is that Z'rali is now the jailer of Sire Denathrius. Nothing more, nothing less.

Cooperation, that is.
Plus, forsaken were hurt by the light, as well, yet Blizzard managed to make them priests.

I never said they did. I’m saying that DKs use runes and runic magic more extensively than any other class. It’s a major theme within their concept.

Of course it is. They took it from the Runemaster.

No one is arguing that Death Knights use martial arts, however you’re arguing that Runemasters don’t use blades. Where’s your evidence?

Nowhere have they been depicted as such, and the whole point of them being martial artists is unarmed combat.

What Runemaster abilities were placed into the Monk class?

The martial arts.
What Runemaster abilities were placed in the Death Knight? you can't name them. You can just say runes.

Sigils are not the same as runes:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/aminoap...1mwbBKnRrebdBR

You can't take from outside sources.
But, if you wish so...:
Sigil - an inscribed or painted symbol considered to have magical power.
Death Knights used Sigils as their relics.

If Blizzard intended to create a Runemaster WoW class with Monk like abilities, why have we never seen such a character in WoW? WoW Runemasters are more along the lines of spell casters than hand to hand fighters.

Because NPCs, rarely, represent their classes properly before the class is added to the game. Especially if they're some unknown, negligible ones.

Are we to believe that WoW planned to create two monk classes? It simply doesn't add up.

*facepalm*

No, they didn't.
They combined it into the overall Monk, itself.
No need be naive about it.

Except both the DK and Monk received abilities from the WC3 heroes they were largely based on, so yes there are playable aspects of these classes that the player gets to utilize before they become classes. This is another aspect that all of the expansion classes share (in fact, all WoW classes share this) but the Runemaster does not possess.

I like it that you stole my WC3 prediction concept and made it your own.

Really? What abilities from the TTRPG Runemaster were brought over to the DK class?

Runes.

this has to be a joke,. the guy saying dark ranger should be elfic centric because elf= ranger, what a gold joke

Nothing elf-centric about Humans and Forsaken.
Giving it to everyone without a justified explanation is the shallowing of lore.

literally pointed out the thunderlord rangers and the draenei rangari, in the very link you provided, stop pretending

By name.
Draenei Rangari, as i've said before, i can see being viable. Less so Thunderlords, who i see more as Beastmasters. Plus, they don't have a dedicated group for such Rangers. Though, i could always be wrong.

which you define? who the fuck are you? its for you to define or decide, they are rangers, period, you liking or not

If they are teaching dark rangers, every race can be, if void elves get, every other race should, period.

This is about your personal taste and headcanon, put that in your head, you are full of biases

Relax.

Rangers could, also, mean Power Rangers. I mean, there are Gnomish Elite Aerial Rangers, but they are more of a pilot/Tinker group than your traditional Ranger.
You see, there's a need to distinguish between the different Rangers, because basically everyone could be called one, but they are very different to the original meaning.

Teaching is how we got Pandaren martial arts and beliefs distributed to every race. This is not uniqueness. This is not lore. This is just lazy-ass writing. The Human Monks should be akin to the Scarlet Crusade ones. Draenei Monks should be akin to the Auchenai ones, and so on. If not in animations, then in lore.

Nice to see Blizzard incorporate Sylvanas’ HotS abilities into her raid boss encounter. Bodes well for possible Tinker and Dragon Aspect concepts.

What? where?

*excitement rushing though the body as my prediction might be correct* (drawing upon Sylvanas' raid boss abilities as well as HotS)

Yup, very good news for Dark Rangers too. Good to see more HotS abilities make its way to WoW

Hallelujah!
I might be right!

Considering that Nathanos and Sylvanas are more than likely dead and forgotten by the end of the next patch, I'm not seeing a way forward for Dark Rangers. At best, I see some of Sylvanas' abilities like Wailing Arrow and Withering fire get trickled down into the Hunter class. With Haunting Wave possibly ending up in the Priest class.

We'll see though.

Typical Teriz...
Always the party-pooper.

[Teriz]

How do you figure this is good for Tinkers and Dragon Aspect concepts if you're implying HotS abilities would go straight to existing classes?

And why do you think Priests would be given a necromantic ability?

Dark Ranger abilities have historically landed in the Hunter and Priest classes. With the Dark Ranger’s major lore characters going bye bye (and how the DRs that Sylvanas raised simply joined the forsaken), I don’t see how you can create a path that leads to Dark Rangers.

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... What? Are you nuts, or something? They had one single unit, the Paladin, in Warcraft 3. And then the paladin, in WC2. How is that "heavily seed"? The rogue and priest were more "heavily seeded" than the paladin.

The main character in WC3 (Arthas) was a Paladin. Also Uther another Paladin was a major character and lore figure. That is an example of seeding. If we had a Bard hero running around and doing incredible deeds with his Bardic abilities, that would be seeding for a Bard class.

However we don’t have that.

We don't need characters with actual abilities listed in WoWHead to make a concept valid. There is a NPC in Revendreth that speaks how music can be used to redeem a soul. The entirety of Bastion revolves around music: search for "the instruments of Bastion". We also have the Vespers, in Bastion. We also have a world quest in Ardenweald where we use music to capture memories.

We have Lich King Arthas for Death Knights, Chen for Monks, Illidan for Demon Hunters, Gazlowe for Tinkers, Sylvanas for Dark Rangers, Wrathion for Dragonsworn, etc.

See the difference?

And standard fire magic is nothing different than fel fire magic. And arcane frost magic is nothing different than elemental frost magic. Etc, etc. You're not seeing the forest for the trees, here.

How does a Warrior using Battle Shout, Rallying Cry, or Dragon Roar differ from a Bard using similar abilities? Warriors have almost a dozen such abilities btw.

I never said that. I only pointed out that Blizzard themselves said that the runemaster concept ended up one of the top three picks for the expansion class for Wrath. I never said they came up with a "definable concept".

Okay then.

[Triceron]

Dark Ranger abilities have historically landed in the Hunter and Priest classes. With the Dark Ranger’s major lore characters going bye bye (and how the DRs that Sylvanas raised simply joined the forsaken), I don’t see how you can create a path that leads to Dark Rangers.

Historically we have no indication of HOTS abilities from other classes being pawned off to existing classes. I mean, that's why I agreed with your original assessment, because it makes sense.

I think Priest and Hunter class abilities moving away from Necromancy speaks volumes. Modern design is more relevant than pointing at Warlocks with Death Coil.

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Hallelujah!
I might be right!

Really depends still. I think Teriz did point out something interesting with mentioning that Classes usually get hinted two expansions prior, and we definitely got huge hints in BFA regarding a Dark Ranger. Still, we have to see how much more screen time they give the other Dark Rangers like Delaryn Summermoon.

[Teriz]

Historically we have no indication of HOTS abilities from other classes being pawned off to existing classes. I mean, that's why I agreed with your original assessment, because it makes sense.

I think Priest and Hunter class abilities moving away from Necromancy speaks volumes. Modern design is more relevant than pointing at Warlocks with Death Coil.

Wailing Arrow and Withering Fire don't have much to do with Necromancy though, they fit in just fine with the modern Hunter class.

I'm also not seeing much Necromancy in Haunting Wave. Considering that Priests have multiple terror and fear mechanics along with the ability to become incorporeal via Dispersion, something like Haunting Wave fits in fine with modern Shadow Priests.

[Triceron]

I'm also not seeing much Necromancy in Haunting Wave. Considering that Priests have multiple terror and fear mechanics along with the ability to become incorporeal via Dispersion, something like Haunting Wave fits in fine with modern Shadow Priests.

You see nothing Necromantic about this ability? Are we talking about the same ability here?

[username993720]

Dark Ranger abilities have historically landed in the Hunter and Priest classes. With the Dark Ranger’s major lore characters going bye bye (and how the DRs that Sylvanas raised simply joined the forsaken), I don’t see how you can create a path that leads to Dark Rangers.

Demon Hunter abilities historically landed in the Rogue, Priest and Warlock classes. Death Knight ability historically landed in the Warlock class. That is not an argument.

You can't eulogize them before they are dead.
Mekkatorque survived his encounter, and so did Jaina.

How did Gul'dan put it? "You have no vision!". That's all i have to say about your lack of imagination.

We have Lich King Arthas for Death Knights, Chen for Monks, Illidan for Demon Hunters, Gazlowe for Tinkers, Sylvanas for Dark Rangers, Wrathion for Dragonsworn, etc.

Wrathion isn't a Dragonsworn, no matter how much you push that bullshit.

But, a nice try squeezing it alongside other real class heroes.

How does a Warrior using Battle Shout, Rallying Cry, or Dragon Roar differ from a Bard using similar abilities? Warriors have almost a dozen such abilities btw.

Comparing a Warrior to a Bard is like heaven and earth. One's a fighter, the other a musician.

Really depends still. I think Teriz did point out something interesting with mentioning that Classes usually get hinted two expansions prior, and we definitely got huge hints in BFA regarding a Dark Ranger. Still, we have to see how much more screen time they give the other Dark Rangers like Delaryn Summermoon.

I'm not sure about that theory of his, but BFA hinted at Light & Void more than anything.

Wailing Arrow and Withering Fire don't have much to do with Necromancy though, they fit in just fine with the modern Hunter class.

I'm also not seeing much Necromancy in Haunting Wave. Considering that Priests have multiple terror and fear mechanics along with the ability to become incorporeal via Dispersion, something like Haunting Wave fits in fine with modern Shadow Priests.

Wailing Arrow is based on a Banshee's wail - an undead creature.
Wither is, literally, another word for decay.

Haunting Wave summons Banshees, which are undead creatures. The priest doesn't summon undead creatures, such as Banshees.

They disperse into shadow energy, not into a Banshee.

You see nothing Necromantic about this ability? Are we talking about the same ability here?

Wiki pictures don't work here.

[Triceron]

Wrathion isn't a Dragonsworn, no matter how much you push that bullshit.

Wrathion might not be a Dragonsworn, but if there were any major lore character to attach any Dragon-themed class around, it'd likely be him.

I mean, the Aspects and Chromie are well established lore figures to draw from too, but they're not as forward as Wrathion when it comes to calling on mortal champions.

And you don't need an exact title of the class to be the face of the class itself. Kel'thuzad shed his mortal being and became a full-on Lich but he's still tied heavily as an important figurehead of the Necromancer class. Or how Thrall is the figurehead of the Shamans but he lost all his Shamanic powers (should we even still be calling Thrall a Shaman?).

I'm not sure about that theory of his, but BFA hinted at Light & Void more than anything.

We're definitely heading towards that. Turalyon leading the Alliance will be a gamechanger.

And as much as I like the idea of shaking things up and having get some overzealous and fanatical leaders, I feel like this is too on-the-nose.

[Teriz]

You see nothing Necromantic about this ability? Are we talking about the same ability here?

I see ghosts/evil spirits. Priests have abilities like that.

[Lost controller]

Wrathion might not be a Dragonsworn, but if there were any major lore character to attach any Dragon-themed class around, it'd likely be him.

I mean, the Aspects and Chromie are well established lore figures to draw from too, but they're not as forward as Wrathion when it comes to calling on mortal champions.

And you don't need an exact title of the class to be the face of the class itself. Kel'thuzad shed his mortal being and became a full-on Lich but he's still tied heavily as an important figurehead of the Necromancer class. Or how Thrall is the figurehead of the Shamans but he lost all his Shamanic powers (should we even still be calling Thrall a Shaman?).



We're definitely heading towards that. Turalyon leading the Alliance will be a gamechanger.

And as much as I like the idea of shaking things up and having get some overzealous and fanatical leaders, I feel like this is too on-the-nose.

wow isnt about subtle story telling

[Teriz]

Demon Hunter abilities historically landed in the Rogue, Priest and Warlock classes. Death Knight ability historically landed in the Warlock class. That is not an argument.

Blizzard didn’t go out of its way to make DH and DK improbable from a lore perspective. Not only is there a gameplay barrier, Blizzard has been purposely pushing the notion that DRs are merely undead Hunters for quite some time.

You can't eulogize them before they are dead.
Mekkatorque survived his encounter, and so did Jaina.

Nathanos is already dead, and Sylvanas is heading for the meat grinder. It’s fairly obvious at this point.

[Triceron]

I see ghosts/evil spirits.

And you don't see how that connects to Necromancy at all?

[TheRevenantHero]

Why not? It uses runeblades and runes, and generates runic power. How are DKs NOT runemasters?

If you're going to say that DKs are runemasters because they have runeblades and runes on said blade, then all engineers are tinkers by your very logic.

[shoc]

If you're going to say that DKs are runemasters because they have runeblades and runes on said blade, then all engineers are tinkers by your very logic.

Death Knights aren't Runemasters because Runemasters were never a thing.

[Teriz]

And you don't see how that connects to Necromancy at all?

Again, Priestd have abilities like Shadowy Apparition Mindbender, Fade, Psychic Horror, and Dispersion. How are those any different thematically than Haunting Wave?

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If you're going to say that DKs are runemasters because they have runeblades and runes on said blade, then all engineers are tinkers by your very logic.

Engineering would need to be a class with actual Tinker abilities for that comparison to work.

[Triceron]

Again, Priestd have abilities like Shadowy Apparition Mindbender, Fade, Psychic Horror, and Dispersion. How are those any different thematically than Haunting Wave?

None of them are based on ghosts/spirits. Shadowy Apparition is literally just a shadow illusion projection of yourself, which isn't a ghost or a spirit.

Haunting Wave is literally sending out a wave of banshees. That is Necromancy, which Dark Rangers are completely themed around. I don't see how you view this as a Priest ability, since Haunting Wave has nothing to do with madness or illusions.